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Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

  1. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The Arvanites which have settled in some area's in Greece did not particularly shift mainland Greeks away from Islanders, since the Arvanites overlapped with mainland Greeks in the first place. Greeks from Crete, even though quite related to mainland Greeks, would still have had more impact on mainland Greeks genetically, than Arvanites. So many regions and Islands close to mainland Greece were never settled by Arvanites and they still are closer to (South) Albanians than to Eastern Islanders and especially Cretans or Cypriots. Albania and mainland Greece simply essentially belonged to the same genetic mainframe due to older migrations. And for this same reason Crete, the eastern Islands and Cyprus were never identical to the mainland. They were simply colonized by mainland Greeks and absorbed into the Hellenic cultural mainframe. Or rather, their culture and the mainland Greek culture intermixed and formed the Hellenic body. Zeus for example is a figure from Cretan mythology.

    On the other hand Slavs may have had some impact on mainland Greeks (or Albanians for that matter). But still, comparing islands near mainland Greece to mainland Greece, one can see that they differ quite little. So in general I think that the biological impact was quite moderate. Lastly, I never argued that there was no genetic impact since antiquity. There was simply some genetic variety already in ancient times.
    Is this a true or not?
    In many instances the Arvanites were invited by the Byzantine and Latin rulers of the time. They were employed to re-settle areas that had been largely depopulated through wars, epidemics, and other reasons, and they were employed as soldiers.[12][13]


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    My argument is that the genetic footprints of Albanian in Greece is quite substantial.....


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    You feel better when you think that?

    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Is this a true or not?
    In many instances the Arvanites were invited by the Byzantine and Latin rulers of the time. They were employed to re-settle areas that had been largely depopulated through wars, epidemics, and other reasons, and they were employed as soldiers.[12][13]
    It seems to be true about Attica and NE Peloponnese. But Greeks including Arvanites today don't agree about what these Arvanites were. Many like to think they had Greek origin. I don't support that for a number of reasons but I don't know how mixed they could have been.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    You feel better when you think that?



    It seems to be true about Attica and NE Peloponnese. But Greeks including Arvanites today don't agree about what these Arvanites were. Many like to think they had Greek origin. I don't support that for a number of reasons but I don't know how mixed they could have been.
    Feelings are not the subject here.... let'a focus on evidence.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Feelings are not the subject here.... let'a focus on evidence.


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    Don't have such furry

    cause genetics can work vise-versa

    I wrote about Simon Simeonsis
    but you did not notice it

    we might have Albanizations of Greeks and Aromani in Albania
    especially with Tosks and Liapides

    as we have Albanization with Goranjie tribes in Albania
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Don't have such furry

    cause genetics can work vise-versa

    I wrote about Simon Simeonsis
    but you did not notice it

    we might have Albanizations of Greeks and Aromani in Albania
    especially with Tosks and Liapides

    as we have Albanization with Goranjie tribes in Albania
    I tend to refuse this without convincing evidence.....Greek culture lost from Albanian supremacy....very improbable scenario.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Don't have such furry

    cause genetics can work vise-versa

    I wrote about Simon Simeonsis
    but you did not notice it

    we might have Albanizations of Greeks and Aromani in Albania
    especially with Tosks and Liapides

    as we have Albanization with Goranjie tribes in Albania
    I don't know who Simon and Goranjie are? Elaborate if you can or have time?


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I don't know who Simon and Goranjie are? Elaborate if you can or have time?


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    Simon
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symon_Semeonis

    Goranjie or Torbesh
    are the muslim Slavs of Albania

    and no it is not supremacy of Greeks or Albanians

    but forced assimilation,

    Remember Kastrioti and Vallavan Pasha days
    and watch today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The truth is that Tosk Albanians are very close to the Greeks and practically overlap with mainland Greece. In a similar way Tosk Albanians are closer to mainland Greeks than to Ghegh Albanians, who in their own respect are not too far off from other Albanians and Greeks in general. We can not draw conclusions from this. Or rather, I think you misrepresent this fact to make a claim that somehow mainland Greeks changed towards a certain direction. In fact, it is highly likely that what is today Albania may well have been genetically indistinguishable from mainland Greece already in antiquity. A somewhat different example, mainland Greeks plot closer to Italians from Tuscany than to Cretans and Cypriots. Do you suppose that mainland Greeks are Tuscans? Ofcourse not.




    On the contrary. I am the one who suggested that given Greek history we can only assume that there must be some degree of heterogeneity in the Greek populace. I however argue that this was the case already in antiquity. You argue that this was not the case and that they shifted away from each other later on. Well, I respectfully disagree.
    Not much to argue about here then, we can only speculate when and how genetic changes or drifts happened. I'm not sure if we can talk about substantial population genetic drift on Greek Islands, even if the most secluded population in Europe, Sardinians, are still plotting very close to European Neolithic. Greek genetics is more likely product of population migration and mixing than independent drift of secluded population.

    Fact:
    From all the samples of today and ancient, Cypriots are the closest match to Chalcolithic Anatolia. My take on it is that, they are mostly Chalcolithic Anatolia with Near Eastern influence afterwards.

    My speculation:
    We don't have ancient match for Greek Islanders (yet), but my guess would be they are genetically stuck in Bronze Age.
    Mainland represents processes from Iron Age onward, with Albanians going through similar ones.
    Or Islanders are everything that happened till end of Greek Empire, and Mainland is last 2ky?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Modern Greek dna are largely descended from Neolithic Anatolian farmers, that's about 50%+ of their genetic make up. Mainland Greeks score higher Yamnaya and EHG related ancestry this can be verified by both autosomal and Y-dna haplogroups.
    Neolithic samples from Greece are closely related to Early Neolithic Farmers and modern Sardinians even, but less to to modern Continental European populations. I believe Minoans were a Anatolia Chalcolithic related population and closely related to Troyans, Etruscans and Luwinians. We still don't have autosomal results from there but that's the closest possibility.
    Ancient Greek tribes moved from Northward to Greece and they could have brought a Yamnaya like admixture and mix with the local Neolithic Farmers and created the Greek population or the other explanation is that the input of Yamnaya admixture came with the Slavic expansions from North and the assimilated minorities like Vlach people and other Balkan tribes.

    Eastern European like Y-dna haplogroups in Greece in the North reaches even 40% and that's not a surprise just see it's next to Bulgaria and Macedonia.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanp View Post
    Modern Greek dna are largely descended from Neolithic Anatolian farmers, that's about 50%+ of their genetic make up. Mainland Greeks score higher Yamnaya and EHG related ancestry this can be verified by both autosomal and Y-dna haplogroups.
    Neolithic samples from Greece are closely related to Early Neolithic Farmers and modern Sardinians even, but less to to modern Continental European populations. I believe Minoans were a Anatolia Chalcolithic related population and closely related to Troyans, Etruscans and Luwinians. We still don't have autosomal results from there but that's the closest possibility.
    Ancient Greek tribes moved from Northward to Greece and they could have brought a Yamnaya like admixture and mix with the local Neolithic Farmers and created the Greek population or the other explanation is that the input of Yamnaya admixture came with the Slavic expansions from North and the assimilated minorities like Vlach people and other Balkan tribes.

    Eastern European like Y-dna haplogroups in Greece in the North reaches even 40% and that's not a surprise just see it's next to Bulgaria and Macedonia.

    We assimilated the Anatolian farmers, they not assimilate us, Indo-Europeans invaded this territory in 5th Century AD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Simon
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symon_Semeonis

    Goranjie or Torbesh
    are the muslim Slavs of Albania

    and no it is not supremacy of Greeks or Albanians

    but forced assimilation,

    Remember Kastrioti and Vallavan Pasha days
    and watch today.
    My argument here was that whoever went or occupied china became Chinese, this is valid for Greece as well...considering history, assimilation of other people's from Albanians are rare or not existent.


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    What was the Y DNA haplogroup of ALexander The Great? I read an article that his father's tomb was found.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingslav View Post
    We assimilated the Anatolian farmers, they not assimilate us, Indo-Europeans invaded this territory in 5th Century AD.
    Are you going for "alternative truth" now? IE were in Anatolia since 1,600 BC, at least.
    Secondly, at least half of your DNA is from assimilated farmers and WHGs, if not more. You represent conquerors and conquered at the same time. Thirdly, there is not much of original IE culture left in you to feel proud of "being" one. You dress differently, you changed their religion, culture, way of life, music, tribal laws, etc. You have nothing in common with them except few simple words that maybe they could understand, with difficulty.
    Oh, one more thing. Your Y-DNA was probably assimilated by IE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingslav View Post
    We assimilated the Anatolian farmers, they not assimilate us, Indo-Europeans invaded this territory in 5th Century AD.
    What are you doing posting on a genetics thread when you don't know anything about population genetics? Have you read any of the genetics papers of the last five years?

    The Anatolian farmers weren't very big on mingling with the WHG they encountered, taking on barely a few percent. It took 2,000 years for MN people to pick up a grand total of perhaps 25% of hunter-gatherer ancestry. By the time the Indo-Europeans arrived, they had CHG, also known as Caucasus ancestry, as well as some farmer ancestry of their own. People around the current area of Hungary have been tested and are between 50-55% "farmer" at least. Also, as LeBrok has pointed out, the Indo-Europeans reached these areas in the Bronze Age.

    Where have you been?

    Stop embarrassing yourself, and do some reading before you post..


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The truth is that Tosk Albanians are very close to the Greeks and practically overlap with mainland Greece. In a similar way Tosk Albanians are closer to mainland Greeks than to Ghegh Albanians, who in their own respect are not too far off from other Albanians and Greeks in general. We can not draw conclusions from this. Or rather, I think you misrepresent this fact to make a claim that somehow mainland Greeks changed towards a certain direction. In fact, it is highly likely that what is today Albania may well have been genetically indistinguishable from mainland Greece already in antiquity. A somewhat different example, mainland Greeks plot closer to Italians from Tuscany than to Cretans and Cypriots. Do you suppose that mainland Greeks are Tuscans? Ofcourse not.
    I don't think that's the case, and I would like to see you support your statement regarding Tosk/Gheg differences with something concrete. There are of course outliers, but vast majority of Tosks don't differ much from Ghegs, and most certainly they aren't any closer to pure Greeks or the islanders where there isn't any substantial Arvanit influence. As was J2b2 broken down further up in this thread, similar situation seems also to be the case with our other major clusters, especially with R1b-BY611, V13-L241, V13-CTS9320 and perhaps few other clusters that we haven't SNP identified yet (judging by STRs).

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Are you going for "alternative truth" now? IE were in Anatolia since 1,600 BC, at least.
    Secondly, at least half of your DNA is from assimilated farmers and WHGs, if not more. You represent conquerors and conquered at the same time. Thirdly, there is not much of original IE culture left in you to feel proud of "being" one. You dress differently, you changed their religion, culture, way of life, music, tribal laws, etc. You have nothing in common with them except few simple words that maybe they could understand, with difficulty.
    Oh, one more thing. Your Y-DNA was probably assimilated by IE.
    Oh no Lebrok, is this some sort of R1AvsR1B message war lol. Truth is im Indo-European but my Y-DNA has survived in continental Europe the longest and has remained I2A-DIN even after mingling with Indo-Europeans than this new Slavic race assimilated in Greece and the proof is found in modern Greek DNA has Slavic admixture exceeding 15%, besides the proof is found in the map.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What are you doing posting on a genetics thread when you don't know anything about population genetics? Have you read any of the genetics papers of the last five years?

    The Anatolian farmers weren't very big on mingling with the WHG they encountered, taking on barely a few percent. It took 2,000 years for MN people to pick up a grand total of perhaps 25% of hunter-gatherer ancestry. By the time the Indo-Europeans arrived, they had CHG, also known as Caucasus ancestry, as well as some farmer ancestry of their own. People around the current area of Hungary have been tested and are between 50-55% "farmer" at least. Also, as LeBrok has pointed out, the Indo-Europeans reached these areas in the Bronze Age.

    Where have you been?

    Stop embarrassing yourself, and do some reading before you post..
    This is deflection, there is still Slavic admixture in these coastal mediterranean population. I have good amount Anatolian Farmer and still pure Slav.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingslav View Post
    We assimilated the Anatolian farmers, they not assimilate us, Indo-Europeans invaded this territory in 5th Century AD.

    Kingslav

    one think to remember

    J and I are from the same Hg IJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzurro View Post
    To continue with Cretan, Islander and Mainland Greeks

    Crete, the number is 9

    1. J2a1-M319: 4
    2. J2a1-L210: 1
    3. J2a1-L198: 1
    4. J2a1-FGC35503: 1
    5. J2a1-Y6240: 1

    Zakynthos

    1. J2b-Z631

    Kos

    1. J2b-M205

    For the Mainland Greeks

    Arcadian Greeks, number is 4

    1. J2a1-L1064 (PF5191): 1
    2. J2a1-PF7413 (J2a1-Z6057): 1
    3. J2a1-SK1366 (J2a1-Z6057): 1
    4. J2b-Z631: 1

    Laconian Greeks, number is 4

    1. J2a1-Z2177 (J2a1-L70): 2
    2. J2b-Z631: 2

    Macedonian Greeks, number is 3

    1. J2a1-L70: 1
    2. J2a1-M319: 1
    3. J2b-Z631: 1

    Attica province Greeks, number is 2

    1. J2a1-PF7413: 1
    2. J2b-Z631: 1

    Achaean Greek

    1. J2a1-S25258

    Central Greece, Evrytania

    1. J2a1-PF7421 (J2a1-PF5191): 1

    Argolis Province

    1. J2b-M205

    Messenia province

    1. J2b-Z631
    Can someone please shed some light or put forth ideas about the origins of the J2a1 clades in Greece? I will post a link of a map from one article, showing that J2a1 may be more prevalent in certain parts of Greece than J2b.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0179474

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Kingslav

    one think to remember

    J and I are from the same Hg IJ
    PuntDNAL K12 Ancient- Kingslav

    Population

    Sub-Saharan 0.12
    Amerindian 2.49
    South_Asian 1.29
    Near_East 2.70
    Siberian 0.34
    European_HG 42.95
    Caucasus_HG 21.27
    South_African_HG 0.20
    Anatolian_NF 28.51*****
    East_Asian 0.13
    Oceanian -
    Beringian -


    Exactly, to my next point, here my puntDNAL K12 Ancient, this for someone who scores 99.5% East Europe with Ancestry.

    28.51% Anatolian Farmer, it's safe to say Slavs were in this coastal Mediterranean region for millenniums.

    And likely an advanced civilization around the Black Sea, natural disaster likely took this civilization from it's glory. Definite possibility of superiority over people living in this region, we Slavs inherit the Southern Euro + Steppe genes, and no other group clusters close to us, or shares this combo.
    Last edited by Kingslav; 27-07-17 at 12:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingslav View Post
    This is deflection, there is still Slavic admixture in these coastal mediterranean population. I have good amount Anatolian Farmer and still pure Slav.
    What is deflection, that you don't even know when the Indo-Europeans arrived?

    28.51% Anatolian Farmer, it's safe to say Slavs were in this coastal Mediterranean region for millenniums.
    Is this a joke? How on earth does someone who identifies as a Slav having some Anatolian farmer prove Slavs were in the coastal Mediterranean for millennia? TRB almost pure farmers like Gok got all the way to Sweden. The farmer input went north; the Slavs didn't need to go south to get it. They already had it, although they might have picked up more.

    There was no SLAV civilization on the Black Sea. You're not a pure Indo-European. The highest percentage of Indo-European in Europe doesn't get over 50%, and that's in Latvians, perhaps and Scandinavians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Can someone please shed some light or put forth ideas about the origins of the J2a1 clades in Greece? I will post a link of a map from one article, showing that J2a1 may be more prevalent in certain parts of Greece than J2b.

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0179474
    When it comes to J2a it is a very diverse haplogroup there are many subclades, from 6000-3000 ybp there is 57 different subclades expanding which is a lot to cover, as Maciamo has hypothesized a good portion or majority probably expanded with the Kura Araxes Culture, which would of gone east, west and south, potentially starting up the Minoan Civilization, at least in Crete based on J2a being the most populous line there it can be dated to the Minoan period. In the mainland there probably was some influence from Minoan Crete (maybe minor migrations), Minyans would be the next source of J2a in Mainland Greece. There is also the question with the Pelasgians who themselves would have probably carried some J2a. Now the problem also with Greek J2a is that unfortunately not too many did deep testing and there is not enough samples from Greece to even say this subclade of J2a is the Greek one, though through my research looking at the J2a in Cyprus (you can see it in the thread of Greek and Turkish Cypriot Y which is the paper you quoted), these samples from ftdna and Crete, subclades of J2a1-PF5191 seems to be found in all three. Which is interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    I don't think that's the case, and I would like to see you support your statement regarding Tosk/Gheg differences with something concrete. There are of course outliers, but vast majority of Tosks don't differ much from Ghegs, and most certainly they aren't any closer to pure Greeks or the islanders where there isn't any substantial Arvanit influence. As was J2b2 broken down further up in this thread, similar situation seems also to be the case with our other major clusters, especially with R1b-BY611, V13-L241, V13-CTS9320 and perhaps few other clusters that we haven't SNP identified yet (judging by STRs).
    Gheg Albanians:
    E-V13: 38%
    J2b: 25%
    R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
    R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
    I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
    R1a-M17: 2.5%
    I1-M253: 3.3%

    Tosk Albanians:
    E-V13: 29%
    J2b: 12%
    R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
    R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
    I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
    I2a-M223: 5%
    R1a-M17: 6%
    I1-M253: 3.8%

    Arbereshe Albanians (Southern Italy):
    E-V13: 15%
    J2b: 3%
    R1b-L51 xP311: NONE
    R1b-M269 xL51: 8%
    I2a-xM26, M223: 10%
    I2a-M223: 10%
    R1a-M17: 10%
    E1b-xV13: 13%
    I1-M253: 5.3%

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2015138a.html


    The Tosks and Gheghs differ considerably from each other. Tosks are almost identical to mainland Greeks. Arbaresh and Gheghs are not even remotely related.

    Consider that Tosks and Gheghs live alongside each other. The differences are tremendous. The whole of mainland Greece does not have variety in this proportion. Tosks seem like a variety of Greeks. The border between Albania and Greece are invisible genetically. This is because archaic foundations.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    You can't base genetic similarity solely on uniparental markers like ydna. Has any autosomal analysis been done of Ghegs vs Tosks?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You can't base genetic similarity solely on uniparental markers like ydna. Has any autosomal analysis been done of Ghegs vs Tosks?
    Lol I honestly thought he had something up his sleeve that I haven't seen yet. Exactly, bottle necks, founder effects and external influences play their part and even region from region in Ghegnia alone you could find such differences - especially in the north where compact clans dominated in the past. Plus one needs to analyse those uniparental markers in detail, clusters and subclusters, which I doubt he even looked into it, to be able to tell if we actually differ. For example majority of J2 in Greeks is actually J2a which Tosks totally lack etc.

    Not that I know of, at least not in descent number anyway. But judging by the samples at gedmatch from both sides there isn't any substantial difference, at least that I could detect.

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