Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

Leka said:
Hi Rafc, I presume you mean CTS9219, and if so, are you able to see if any of them have tested positive for its branches BY611, BY250 and Y5587? Armenian R1b seems to be L584+ in majority.

Aaron1981, Ossetian Custer is young actually and falls under Y5587 (Also knows as Eastern European branch).

(See R1b Basal Subclades project)
Click to expand...
Yes, CTS9219, my mistake. Nothing lower than this was tested. I can add that 2 samples were PF7580+, which might serve as a proxy for L584 as it is not a lot lower, compared to 15 CTS7822+.
 
rafc said:
About 10% of the detailed J2a group was Z467+. 2 samples from Cyprus, 1 from Asia minor and1 from Lesbos,no mainland, but this is a very small group offcourse.
Click to expand...

Thanks very much, one last question was any of the Z467+ positive for the downstream L210+? Or Z489+?
 
rafc said:
Yes, CTS9219, my mistake. Nothing lower than this was tested. I can add that 2 samples were PF7580+, which might serve as a proxy for L584 as it is not a lot lower, compared to 15 CTS7822+.
Click to expand...

Thanks!

Btw, I would really appreciate it if you could do something similar with the Albanian samples there, if you have the time and patience.
 
rafc said:
Yes, CTS9219, my mistake. Nothing lower than this was tested. I can add that 2 samples were PF7580+, which might serve as a proxy for L584 as it is not a lot lower, compared to 15 CTS7822+.
Click to expand...

Leka said:
Thanks!

Btw, I would really appreciate it if you could do something similar with the Albanian samples there, if you have the time and patience.
Click to expand...

Good idea by Leka!

I would also be very interested if you could do this for Albanian Genographic samples (including Kosovo, Arvanites), if you can of course.
You may just post the results here: www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30322-Albanian-Tribe-and-Clan-(Fis)-Y-DNA
 
This is how an ancient Indo-European Mycenaean 'Griffin Warrior' looked like! He was part of an 'elite' group in Greece.

pOM7X6r.jpg


Mycenaean 'Griffin warrior'.jpg

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ffin-Warrior-elite-group-3-500-years-ago.html


Who were Mycenaeans and their language?

Mycenaeans were ancient Hellenic Indo-Eurpeans. "Mycenaean preserves some archaic Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Greek features not present in later Ancient Greek."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae
 
I compiled another list of Greek J2 based on what is presented on the ftdna J-M172 project, the sample size is small at 82. Most are categorized under branches and have positive SNP's, and some I nevgen calculated them.

To start the people have Greece as their country of origin but of unknown location, the number is 9.

1. J2b-Z631: 2
2. J2a1-Z7671: 1
3. J2a1-Z6065: 1
4. J2a1-Z482: 1
5. J2a1-M92: 1
6. J2a1-M319: 1
7. J2a1-L70 1
8. J2b-M205: 1

Next I will move onto Pontic and Anatolian Greeks

Horasan Turkey, the number is 10

1. J2a1-PF5191: 2
2. J2a1-M319: 2
3. J2a1-M92: 2
4. J2a1-FGC15901 (J2a-Z6065): 2
5. J2a1-Z7671: 1
6. J2a1-PF7431: 1

Erzurum Turkey, the number is 11

1. J2a1-SK1321: 2
2. J2a1-Z7671: 2
3. J2a1-PF5191: 2
4. J2a1-M92: 2
5. J2a1-L210: 1
6. J2a1-FGC15901: 1
7. J2a1-Z7700 (J2a-F3133): 1

Trabzon Turkey, number is 3

1. J2a1-M92: 2
2. J2a1-PF7431: 1

Bayburt Turkey

1. J2a1-FGC15901

Amasya Turkey

1. J2a1-FGC15901

Gumushane Turkey, number is 14

1. J2a1-M92: 4
2. J2a1-FGC15901: 3
3. J2a1-Z7671: 2
4. J2a1-Z6046: 1
5. J2b-M205: 1
6. J2a1-PH1222: 1
7. J2a1-L210: 1
8. J2a1-Z7700 (J2a1-F3133): 1

Pasinler Turkey, number is 5

1. J2a1-Z6046: 2
2. J2a1-L198: 2
3. J2a1-L210: 1
 
To continue with Cretan, Islander and Mainland Greeks

Crete, the number is 9

1. J2a1-M319: 4
2. J2a1-L210: 1
3. J2a1-L198: 1
4. J2a1-FGC35503: 1
5. J2a1-Y6240: 1

Zakynthos

1. J2b-Z631

Kos

1. J2b-M205

For the Mainland Greeks

Arcadian Greeks, number is 4

1. J2a1-L1064 (PF5191): 1
2. J2a1-PF7413 (J2a1-Z6057): 1
3. J2a1-SK1366 (J2a1-Z6057): 1
4. J2b-Z631: 1

Laconian Greeks, number is 4

1. J2a1-Z2177 (J2a1-L70): 2
2. J2b-Z631: 2

Macedonian Greeks, number is 3

1. J2a1-L70: 1
2. J2a1-M319: 1
3. J2b-Z631: 1

Attica province Greeks, number is 2

1. J2a1-PF7413: 1
2. J2b-Z631: 1

Achaean Greek

1. J2a1-S25258

Central Greece, Evrytania

1. J2a1-PF7421 (J2a1-PF5191): 1

Argolis Province

1. J2b-M205

Messenia province

1. J2b-Z631
 
^

J2b-Z631 aka J2b2-L283
 
Seems that J2b-Z631 appears more often in areas settled heavily by Arvanites.
 
rafc said:
I previously posted about V13/CTS5856. Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.

All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1530 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1530 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples from the other phases that I mapped to the SNP's of the main phase (total n=1530). I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).


Levels over all of Greece:
C-M130 0,4%
E-M215 24,7%
G-M201 8,1%
I-M170 2,3% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
I1-M253 2,2%
I2-P37 8,4%
I2-M223 1,5%
J1-M267 4,5%
J2-M172 17,3%
L-M20 1%
N-M231 0,5%
Q-L232 0,6%
R1a-L63 9,9%
R1b-M343 15%
T-M170 3,1%


Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.

C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos

E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (30-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (25%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (26%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), the northern Aegean Islands (20%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (20%), Pontic Greeks (19%), the Dodecanese (18%), Crete (13%), the Ionian Islands (11%) Asia Minor (11%), North Aegean Islands (12%), Cyprus (16%). Lower in Thessaly (4%), Athens (4%), central Aegean islands (2%), on the Peloponessos (2-6%), Central mainland (2%), Epirus (3%).

I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (9%) and in Thessaly (6%)

I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (9%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.

I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1%), Crete (4%), Athens (6%), the central Aegean Islands (4%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (4%), High in Arcadia (21%), Greek Macedon (14%), Thessaly (13%), Epirus (20%), the Northern Pelopenessos (25%), Thesaloniki (14%), Asia Minor (11%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)

J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (12%), the Dodecanese (11%), central Aegean Islands (8%), Istanbul (11%), the central mainland (10%), on Cyprus (10%), in Arcadia (6%) and Crete (6%). It's low in Asia minor (2%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (1%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (4%)

J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (9%), Central mainland (7%), Greek Macedonia (10%), Dodecanese (11%), Epirus (13%), the Ionian islands (13%), higher in Cyprus (23%), Crete (29%), Athens (20%), Arcadia (23%), Pontic Greeks (26%), Istanbul 22%, Thesaloniki (25%) and the Central Aegean islands (27%)

L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.

R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (4%), Cyprus (6%), Crete (5%), Arcadia (6%), the Pontic Greeks (5%), Dodecanese (0%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (17%), Thessaly (15%), Epirus (13%), Central mainland (14%), Athens (14%), Thesaloniki (14%), the central Aegean Islands (12%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (18%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently), and than the Southern Pelopenessos samples would represent the earlier 6th-8th century Slavic settlement. However that doesn't seem to fit well with the distribution of R1b, which is also high in Albanians.

R1b-M343: low on Cyprus (8%), the Ionian Islands (6%), the central Aegean islands (14%), The pelopenessos (9-15%), high in the central mainland (29%), the Dodecanese (21%), Greek Macedonia (22%). The distribution underneath R1b: L151 is surprisingly high at 27,5%, V88 7,5%, PF7562 2,5%, CTS7822 37,5%, M269 (xPF7562 xL151, xCTS7822) 22,5%. It appears the non-L151 R1b is especially present in Greek Macedonia, Central mainland, Thessaly and Thesaloniki. The rest is a mixed picture. The L151 is very diverse, which might suggest it has a rather late date (medieval from the time of the crusades/Venetians?)

T-M70: higher on Cyprus (5,6%), Crete (5,6%), Asia Minor (5,6%), the Ionian islands (5,8%), Epirus (9,4%)

I also compared the results to some other studies about Greece with a regional breakdown:
1. Voskarides et al (2016) has details on Cyprus. The results are very much in line with Genographic, with one big exception: J2 is 33,4% in Voskarides and 23,6% in Genographic. E-M215, J1 and R1a are slightly higher in Genographic, T1 is at 5,6% in Genographic but absent is Voskarides. None of it has any effects on the above conclusions. Intersting is the E-M215 breakdown: only 7% is V13.

2.The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily, Tofanelli et al., 2015. This study has info on two Greek regions: Euboea (n=93) and Corinthia (n=104). Neither of them coincide well with one of the regions I used (and the numbers for Corinthia and euboea alone are to small to be relevant). Looking at E-M215 the Euboea results are lower and match those for Athens and the central and northern Aegean Islands, while Corinth is closer to Thessaly and the Peloponessos. Both are very low on G-M201, but G-P15 is very high in Euboea, the only comparable region is Cyprus. From the I-group I2-M223 is high on Euboa, this seems to be the case also in Genographic for this region and Attica (although samples are limited). The study also tests I2-M423, and the closest proxy in the genographic project is I-P37. As can be expected (given the Slavic origin that was presumed) levels are very low in Euboea and moderately high in Corinth. J1 is low in both, J2 is far higher in Euboea than any other region of Greece, and normal in Corinth. Levels of R1a are surprisingly high in both. Looking at E-M215 V13 is very dominant.

3. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean, King et.al, 2011. Confirms some Genographic observations like the high levels of V13 in Thessaly and the higher level of G in Asia minor. Phokaia seems to match Attica and Euboea for I-M223. I-M253 is surprisingly high in Asia minor (that was also seen in the Genographic samples, to a lesser extent). Also conclusions for I-P37 seem to be confirmed. Remarkable are the high levels of R1b in Asia minor, in contrast with the very low value in Sesklo/Dimini (although Genographic also found low amounts in Thessaly).

4. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects, Di Giaccomo et.al, 2003. This one is harder to compare due to the older way of designating and testing Haplogroups used in this study. Surprising in any case is the low value for DE in Larisa and Agrinion.

I also prepared a table of the remaining groups if I remove I1, I2-P37 and R1a as supposed later arrivals, so this might be closer to the 'classical' situation:

View attachment 8247

This post is probably growing too long again. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. I know there are a lot of people who here who know much more than me about this region and these haplogroups and who will be far more capable of interpreting these results.
Click to expand...
Thank you, this was one of the most helpful posts ever.

It has been suggested by some members before that all of I2c-L596 in Greece is of medieval Armenian origin since it scores the highest frequency (about 4%) in Armenians, and so the 2.3% in Greece with high 9% in Crete and 6% in Thessaly is attributed to Byzantine emperors policy of settling Armenians on Greek soil, for whatever reason.

I used to subscribe to that theory, I doubt it now for the very simple reason of frequency, if 4% is considered the original frequency and 2% after migration, then the other 96% of other Armenian haplogroups would need to be represented by a frequency of 48% in Greece (because I2-L596 would not migrate alone !!), so almost half of Greeks today are Armenian, and this is absolutely ridiculous, a founder effect is unlikely given that these emperors moved people from multiple provinces into multiple provinces.

That means it was in Greece at least before the middle ages, the TMRCA of I2c2 is between 4300 <--> 3300 ybp, the Middle to Late Bronze Age. I don't know how to explain this, the origin of my group is shrouded in mystery.
 
Nik said:
Seems that J2b-Z631 appears more often in areas settled heavily by Arvanites.
Click to expand...

It seems so but J-Z631 doesn't seem to be Arvanite, I would ask Trojet or Laberia about Albanian J2b they are very informed, a quick look at Yfull J-PH1751 is definitely Albanian its under J2b-Z1296 which is under L283, also J2b-Z40054 under J2b-Y15058 which is also under J2b-L283, these are the two J2b are Albanian, for other J2b-L283 subclades I am not sure.
 
Azzurro said:
It seems so but J-Z631 doesn't seem to be Arvanite, I would ask Trojet or Laberia about Albanian J2b they are very informed, a quick look at Yfull J-PH1751 is definitely Albanian its under J2b-Z1296 which is under L283, also J2b-Z40054 under J2b-Y15058 which is also under J2b-L283, these are the two J2b are Albanian, for other J2b-L283 subclades I am not sure.
Click to expand...

Trojet is the expert in genetics.
 
Azzurro said:
It seems so but J-Z631 doesn't seem to be Arvanite, I would ask Trojet or Laberia about Albanian J2b they are very informed, a quick look at Yfull J-PH1751 is definitely Albanian its under J2b-Z1296 which is under L283, also J2b-Z40054 under J2b-Y15058 which is also under J2b-L283, these are the two J2b are Albanian, for other J2b-L283 subclades I am not sure.
Click to expand...

For J2b2-L283 most Albanians are under J-Z1296. Below Z1296 the most common seems to be PH2967>PH1751. Then there is Albanians under Z1297>Y23094, and Z1295>Y21878.
Z631 doesn't seem to have a big presence among Albanians but I have seen Z631 Albanian haplotypes in scientific studies. As you mentioned, there is also an Albanian sample at YFull belonging to J-Y15058, which is a sister clade of J-Z1296.
Obviously, we don't see all these at YFull since their tree is based on expensive NGS (BigY) tests.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2507/

With that being said, based on haplotypes I think a good amount of Greek J2b2-L283 is a combination of Arvanite and Vlach origin. I would caution that Nevgen predictor doesn't do a very good job for J2b2-L283, there is just too much STR convergence, so I very much doubt most Greek L283 is under J-Z631.
 
Last edited:
Trojet said:
For J2b2-L283 most Albanians are under J-Z1296. Below Z1296 the most common seems to be PH2967>PH1751. Then there is Albanians under Z1297>Y23094, and Z1295>Y21878.
Z631 doesn't seem to have a big presence among Albanians but I have seen Z631 Albanian haplotypes in scientific studies. As you mentioned, there is also an Albanian sample at YFull belonging to J-Y15058, which is a sister clade of J-Z1296.
Obviously, we don't see all these at YFull since their tree is based on expensive NGS (BigY) tests.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2507/

With that being said, based on haplotypes I think a good amount of Greek J2b2-L283 is a combination of Arvanite and Vlach origin. I would caution that Nevgen predictor doesn't do a very good job for J2b2-L283, there is just too much STR convergence, so I very much doubt most Greek L283 is under J-Z631.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info much appreciated! Okay so what I understand from your post is that Albanians belong to roughly 4 J2b-L283 lineages that are found at the moment.

I got those results from ftdna not nevgen, that was where Greek J2b's were majorly placed under Z631. I think its possible what you said, what are the Vlach J2b-L283 lineages? At the current moment the TMRCA of Z631 is 2900 ybp and it formed 3700 ybp which gives 800 years for a potential Greek line to be born, even though Z631 looks at the moment as a Northern/Eastern European line. Needless to say I think the ancient Greeks carried some J2b-L283 lineage which specific one? At the moment I speculate Z631 based on what I see from ftdna but doesn't necessarily mean it will turn out this way, anyways the question remains who would have brought it to Greece the Myceneans or the Dorians? Or both?
 
Azzurro said:
Thanks for the info much appreciated! Okay so what I understand from your post is that Albanians belong to roughly 4 J2b-L283 lineages that are found at the moment.

I got those results from ftdna not nevgen, that was where Greek J2b's were majorly placed under Z631. I think its possible what you said, what are the Vlach J2b-L283 lineages? At the current moment the TMRCA of Z631 is 2900 ybp and it formed 3700 ybp which gives 800 years for a potential Greek line to be born, even though Z631 looks at the moment as a Northern/Eastern European line. Needless to say I think the ancient Greeks carried some J2b-L283 lineage which specific one? At the moment I speculate Z631 based on what I see from ftdna but doesn't necessarily mean it will turn out this way, anyways the question remains who would have brought it to Greece the Myceneans or the Dorians? Or both?
Click to expand...

I haven't been able to identify a specific "Vlach" J2b-L283 cluster, but according to scientific studies, after the Albanians, Vlachs have the next highest J2b-L283 frequency at roughly 8-10%. If we look at Greece, J2b-L283 peaks in frequency in Thessaly, NW Greece, Euboea, Corinthia, at roughly 6-8%, on the other hand it seems to be close to non-existent in the Greek Islands. So this suggests it peaks in the areas where Vlachs and Arvanites are known to have settled.

J2 grouping at FTDNA is probably a bit outdated but I'll look at Greek haplotypes closer one of these days and report back. However, I have run into a few Greek haplotypes who belong to the same subclades as Albanians, like PH1751, Y23094, Y21878.

Obviously, I'm not implying that all Greek J2b-L283 is of Albanian and Vlach origin, but the above mentioned data suggests a good amount of it is. This raises the question if there was any J2b-L283 among Mycenaeans. My guess is that if they had any of it, most likely it will not be under Z1296, as I currently see this branch having a center of diversity in the western Balkans. And therefore any Z1296 there would be a later arrival, Dorians, Illyrians, Thracians, and later Vlachs, Albanians.
I'd theorize that if Mycenaeans had any J2b-L283 it will probably be upstream of Z2507, as those subclades seem to have more of a Mediterranean spread.

As far as Z631 goes, I still struggle to come up with a main theory of where it could've expanded from. Its TMRCA is only 2900 ybp, and it seems to be present basically throughout Europe, with a significant presence in NW Europe. But considering that it descends from Z1296, my guess is North Balkans and some of it may have been absorbed by the Celts, and later probably spread by the Romans also to places like NW Europe. The Tatar (Eastern Europe cluster) so far all belongs to Z631>>Z1043>>Y12000, so it seems to be a recent Middle Ages founder effect.
 
Trojet said:
I haven't been able to identify a specific "Vlach" J2b-L283 cluster, but according to scientific studies, after the Albanians, Vlachs have the next highest J2b-L283 frequency at roughly 8-10%. If we look at Greece, J2b-L283 peaks in frequency in Thessaly, NW Greece, Euboea, Corinthia, at roughly 6-8%, on the other hand it seems to be close to non-existent in the Greek Islands. So this suggests it peaks in the areas where Vlachs and Arvanites are known to have settled.

J2 grouping at FTDNA is probably a bit outdated but I'll look at Greek haplotypes closer one of these days and report back. However, I have run into a few Greek haplotypes who belong to the same subclades as Albanians, like PH1751, Y23094, Y21878.

Obviously, I'm not implying that all Greek J2b-L283 is of Albanian and Vlach origin, but the above mentioned data suggests a good amount of it is. This raises the question if there was any J2b-L283 among Mycenaeans. My guess is that if they had any of it, most likely it will not be under Z1296, as I currently see this branch having a center of diversity in the western Balkans. And therefore any Z1296 there would be a later arrival, Dorians, Illyrians, Thracians, and later Vlachs, Albanians.
I'd theorize that if Mycenaeans had any J2b-L283 it will probably be upstream of Z2507, as those subclades seem to have more of a Mediterranean spread.

As far as Z631 goes, I still struggle to come up with a main theory of where it could've expanded from. Its TMRCA is only 2900 ybp, and it seems to be present basically throughout Europe, with a significant presence in NW Europe. But considering that it descends from Z1296, my guess is North Balkans and some of it may have been absorbed by the Celts, and later probably spread by the Romans also to places like NW Europe. The Tatar (Eastern Europe cluster) so far all belongs to Z631>>Z1043>>Y12000, so it seems to be a recent Middle Ages founder effect.
Click to expand...

Thanks again for all the information. I agree too that some of FTDNA's groupings are outdated I see the same in J2a subclade, there is one who tested positive for a complete different subclade yet is still in the grouping. Am looking forward to your reporting on Greek J2b.

What is the J2b-L283% on Euboea? Euboean Greeks colonized Northeastern Sicily, Reggio area and had a couple of colonies in Campania, I checked to see if I can find any J2b-L283 in those areas and I found 2 in Catania (province) both are under J2b-Z2197 with one testing positive for this subclade, there is also one suggested to be positive in Athens (but Athens is a large city with various Greeks coming from all over). J2b-Z1297 is an upstream of J2b-Z631 so maybe can all these Greek looking Z631 actually be just under J-Z1297, on Maciamo's J2b map there is a hot spot in the ancient region of Ionia in Turkey, at least there's a connection for Ionian Greeks, Dorians could have carried a similar subclade. I think it would make sense of what you said about the Mycenaeans. Essentially Z631 is less likely at the moment. I would like to know your thoughts on this.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 363186 times.

Back
Top