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Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

  1. #476
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L1029>Y133361
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2b*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    A2512 is very mysterious indeed.
    Taking in consideration the TMRCA of this subbranch and the fact that it hasn't been found in any Slavic group yet, we can assume that this subbranch had arrived in Greece somewhere between 200 B.C. and 600 A.D.
    The most probable migrations that brought it were those of the Goths and Huns.
    Having been found in a Chuvash man only confirms my suspicion that this subbranch have been brought either by Goths who have acquired it from the Huns or have been brought by the Huns themselves.
    We know about the the Gothic and Hunnic raids in the Balkans and also about the numerous Gothic and Hunnic warriors and other officials in service of the Byzantine empire.
    Or it could have been brought by some Slavic tribe still, that have settled in Greece and had that specific mutation.
    Idk, Theres quite a few Slavic(and a Baltic) samples on y-full belonging to sub-branches of I-A2512. Poland, Belarus, Lithuania. Albeit younger than the Greek sample. Yet still not conclusive(considering Yfull is not representative of all data).

    I-A2512 is also a descendant of I-Y3120, which is(per yfull) Polish. It's immediate descendant clade I-Z17855(sister clade of I-A2512) are predominantly South-Slavic Samples(one Polish and Ukrainian sample) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A2512/

    Chances are(whether it was Gothic or not originally)it was part of the Slavic Expansion. If the Greek samples were Basal CTS10228 or older, I would reckon Goths definitely. Or maybe Bastarnae.

  2. #477
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Idk, Theres quite a few Slavic(and a Baltic) samples on y-full belonging to sub-branches of I-A2512. Poland, Belarus, Lithuania. Albeit younger than the Greek sample.
    All of these people appear to be Jewish. None of them appear to be non-Jewish Slavs. They are downstream of Greeks in the tree and likely migrated to Eastern Europe from wherever they lived among Greeks. Here is the FTDNA I2a haplogroup project, showing the people and their surnames.

    https://tinyurl.com/y9lopbjq

  3. #478
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L1029>Y133361
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H11a2b*

    Ethnic group
    Albanian/Gheg/Dibran/Okshtun
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    All of these people appear to be Jewish. None of them appear to be non-Jewish Slavs. They are downstream of Greeks in the tree and likely migrated to Eastern Europe from wherever they lived among Greeks. Here is the FTDNA I2a haplogroup project, showing the people and their surnames.

    https://tinyurl.com/y9lopbjq
    Interesting, What about its ancestor branch and sister clade? I-A2512 is also a descendant of I-Y3120, which is(per yfull) Polish. It's immediate descendant clade I-Z17855(sister clade of I-A2512) are predominantly South-Slavic Samples(one Polish and Ukrainian sample) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/

  4. #479
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Interesting, What about its ancestor branch and sister clade? I-A2512 is also a descendant of I-Y3120, which is(per yfull) Polish. It's immediate descendant clade I-Z17855(sister clade of I-A2512) are predominantly South-Slavic Samples(one Polish and Ukrainian sample) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/
    Is it not possible that A2512 predated Slavic migrations in Greece? What about earlier invasions, like Goths?

    There are two major branches of A2512: A10959 and A7134. The Eastern European Jews are downstream in A10959, and the Chuvash and Spanish people are in A7134.

  5. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    And they should not be counted, because they are not native to the region!
    Only pre-1920 inhabitants should count!
    Just saw that.

    Ive not said that they should be included. In 1-2 generations they eventually will be.

    All I am saying is that when we say "in Nothern Greece this and this bla bla bla" etc we don't have the actual picture of the area, which is A LOT different because of the huge numbers of people with different ancestry.

    I can't recall any other area in Europe today that the studied "truth" is so different from the actual one.

    Sent from my Robin using Tapatalk

  6. #481
    Regular Member Aspar's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y16729
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Macedonian
    Country: Lesotho



    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Idk, Theres quite a few Slavic(and a Baltic) samples on y-full belonging to sub-branches of I-A2512. Poland, Belarus, Lithuania. Albeit younger than the Greek sample. Yet still not conclusive(considering Yfull is not representative of all data).

    I-A2512 is also a descendant of I-Y3120, which is(per yfull) Polish. It's immediate descendant clade I-Z17855(sister clade of I-A2512) are predominantly South-Slavic Samples(one Polish and Ukrainian sample)

    Chances are(whether it was Gothic or not originally)it was part of the Slavic Expansion. If the Greek samples were Basal CTS10228 or older, I would reckon Goths definitely. Or maybe Bastarnae.
    Yes, somehow I've missed that.
    I thought that this particular marker is found only in Greeks but now I see that it is found in some East European countries as well.
    And I don't believe that all of those people are Jewish as other member said.
    I've checked the FTDNA's I2a haplogroup project and among the Greeks there is one man apparently with a Jewish name, the other are not listed there.
    As it seems, whole I2a1b-Dinaric, is the best evidence for the Slavic genetic footprint in the Balkans.

  7. #482
    Regular Member ihype02's Avatar
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    Dodecanese Islanders have '23% E' Y-Dna. What about subclades?

  8. #483
    Banned Parafarne's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Eurasian

    Ethnic group
    Caucasian
    Country: Afghanistan



    is there new data for Greece from Geno2, it seems like we have stuck with these datas for the last decade? there should have been much larger projects to give much better refined results!

  9. #484
    Regular Member Aspar's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-Y16729
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    Macedonian
    Country: Lesotho



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Dodecanese Islanders have '23% E' Y-Dna. What about subclades?
    I believe not much different than Cyprus and other nearby islands, therefore I expect E-L791 and mostly E-Y4971 subclade and maybe E-Y6923.
    Than I expect E-V22 and some subclades of it.
    When it comes to E-V13, I expect some old subclades like S7461, Y16729, Y3183, Y3762 and others.
    And finally, and most numerous on top of that, I expect CTS9320 which looks like subclade that could have been brought by the Dorians!

  10. #485
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    Anyone knows the specific Y-DNA makeup of the people of Western Crete (Chania)? Especially Kissamos. I'm not very knowledgeable in this kind of thing but I'm interested. Ty in advance :)

  11. #486
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-M223 (I-L701)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U3 (U3b)

    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Greece



    I-M223, Subclade I-L701. Father, Grandfather, Grand-grand-father from Thessaly.

  12. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Northern Greeks (Thrace & Macedonia) (296 samples)
    I : 21.6
    R1a : 18.2
    R1b : 13.2
    E1b : 20.6
    G2 : 4.7
    J2 : 14.9
    J1 : 3.4
    LT : 2.7
    * : 0.7


    Central Greeks (Epirus & Thessaly) (127 samples)
    I : 12.6
    R1a : 11.8
    R1b : 10.2
    E1b : 31.5
    G2 : 6.3
    J2 : 18.1
    J1 : 3.9
    LT : 3.9
    * : 1.6


    Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) (264 samples)
    I : 12.9
    R1a : 10.2
    R1b : 20.5
    E1b : 25.8
    G2 : 3.4
    J2 : 19.7
    J1 : 2.3
    LT : 3.8
    * : 1.5


    Eastern Greeks (Aegean islands & Ionia) (158 samples)
    I : 11.4
    R1a : 7.6
    R1b : 22.8
    E1b : 20.3
    G2 : 8.2
    J2 : 19.6
    J1 : 5.1
    LT : 3.2
    * : 1.9

    Cretan Greeks (Crete) (193 samples)
    I : 13.0
    R1a : 8.8
    R1b : 17.1
    E1b : 8.8
    G2 : 10.9
    J2 : 30.6
    J1 : 8.3
    LT : 2.6
    *: -


    All Greeks (1038 samples)
    I : 15.1
    R1a : 12.0
    R1b : 16.9
    E1b : 21.0
    G2 : 6.3
    J2 : 20.1
    J1 : 4.3
    LT : 3.2
    *: 1.1
    the Y DNA in Greece

  13. #488
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Yes, somehow I've missed that.
    I thought that this particular marker is found only in Greeks but now I see that it is found in some East European countries as well.
    And I don't believe that all of those people are Jewish as other member said.
    I've checked the FTDNA's I2a haplogroup project and among the Greeks there is one man apparently with a Jewish name, the other are not listed there.
    As it seems, whole I2a1b-Dinaric, is the best evidence for the Slavic genetic footprint in the Balkans.
    There are a lot of Jews downstream of Y23115, which is under A10959. They may all be Jewish. The FTDNA I2a project has names like Rosen, Moses, Chaim, Sholom, Feldman, etc. The results are on page two

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

    The FTDNA project administrator also states the people are Jewish.

    http://i2aproject.blogspot.com/2017/...and-i.html?m=1

    One Russian Y18331 is from Tobolsk, which is very far away from the East European countries of the Jewish ancestors: Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, etc.

    As of yet there appear to be no East European non-Jews nor Balkan Slavs in Y18331. The Jews and Greeks in A10959 had their common ancestor an estimated 2,000 years ago, around the time the Greek branch Y66192 and the Jewish branch Y23115 separated. The Jewish males are under Y23115.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/

    The Y18331 Greeks are from different parts of Greece, from north, south and west. Maybe Y18331 is from Slavs, but it has a very unusual distribution pattern when there are no Balkan Slavs yet with Y18331, and the east Europeans with the haplogroup are Jewish.
    Last edited by Ralphie Boy; 01-04-19 at 17:06.

  14. #489
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    My haplogroup is R-F2935 subclade of R-Z93. Quite rare in Greece.

  15. #490
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2705

    Country: Canada



    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I previously posted about V13/CTS5856. Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.
    All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

    I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1530 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1530 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples from the other phases that I mapped to the SNP's of the main phase (total n=1530). I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).
    Levels over all of Greece:
    C-M130 0,4%
    E-M215 24,7%
    G-M201 8,1%
    I-M170 2,3% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
    I1-M253 2,2%
    I2-P37 8,4%
    I2-M223 1,5%
    J1-M267 4,5%
    J2-M172 17,3%
    L-M20 1%
    N-M231 0,5%
    Q-L232 0,6%
    R1a-L63 9,9%
    R1b-M343 15%
    T-M170 3,1%
    Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
    For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.
    C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos
    E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (30-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (25%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (26%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), the northern Aegean Islands (20%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.
    G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (20%), Pontic Greeks (19%), the Dodecanese (18%), Crete (13%), the Ionian Islands (11%) Asia Minor (11%), North Aegean Islands (12%), Cyprus (16%). Lower in Thessaly (4%), Athens (4%), central Aegean islands (2%), on the Peloponessos (2-6%), Central mainland (2%), Epirus (3%).
    I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (9%) and in Thessaly (6%)
    I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (9%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.
    I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1%), Crete (4%), Athens (6%), the central Aegean Islands (4%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (4%), High in Arcadia (21%), Greek Macedon (14%), Thessaly (13%), Epirus (20%), the Northern Pelopenessos (25%), Thesaloniki (14%), Asia Minor (11%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)
    J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (12%), the Dodecanese (11%), central Aegean Islands (8%), Istanbul (11%), the central mainland (10%), on Cyprus (10%), in Arcadia (6%) and Crete (6%). It's low in Asia minor (2%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (1%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (4%)
    J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (9%), Central mainland (7%), Greek Macedonia (10%), Dodecanese (11%), Epirus (13%), the Ionian islands (13%), higher in Cyprus (23%), Crete (29%), Athens (20%), Arcadia (23%), Pontic Greeks (26%), Istanbul 22%, Thesaloniki (25%) and the Central Aegean islands (27%)
    L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.
    R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (4%), Cyprus (6%), Crete (5%), Arcadia (6%), the Pontic Greeks (5%), Dodecanese (0%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (17%), Thessaly (15%), Epirus (13%), Central mainland (14%), Athens (14%), Thesaloniki (14%), the central Aegean Islands (12%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (18%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently).

    MAY I ask why you have removed especially vlachs and arvanites samples?

  16. #491
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
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    From personal research my paternal lineage in the Peloponnese is pretty old. Any sense when G2A entered the Peloponnese?

  17. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    MAY I ask why you have removed especially vlachs and arvanites samples?
    I didn't remove especially Vlachs and Arvanites, I also removed Gypsies. The point was to give the numbers for those who self identified as Greek (in any case the number of Vlachs and Arvanites was quite limited).

  18. #493
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2705

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I didn't remove especially Vlachs and Arvanites, I also removed Gypsies. The point was to give the numbers for those who self identified as Greek (in any case the number of Vlachs and Arvanites was quite limited).
    And to what do Vlachs and Arvanites identify themselves as?

    You also mention... The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently).
    HOW did you get this?...from all the major groups ev13 r1b j2a you picket up I2 with lowest % for Greeks and Albanian?...

    FYI according to facts and data Greeks and Albanians have the most similar DNA in balkans...

  19. #494
    Regular Member
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by noUseForAname View Post
    And to what do Vlachs and Arvanites identify themselves as?

    You also mention... The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently).
    HOW did you get this?...from all the major groups ev13 r1b j2a you picket up I2 with lowest % for Greeks and Albanian?...

    FYI according to facts and data Greeks and Albanians have the most similar DNA in balkans...
    Today Arvanites primarily identify as Greeks, though most seem to be aware of their Albanian roots. As for the Vlachs (Aromanians), I'd imagine that they identify as Aromanians primarily, but also as Greeks though on a more secondary level. Not too sure on the identity of Aromanians in Greece, I'm mainly basing this on how the Aromanians of Albania identify.

    The I2 in Northern Greece is a result of the Slavic migrations for the most part, Albanian (Arvanite) migrations contributed to R-Z2705, J-L283 and some E-V13.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

  20. #495
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Today Arvanites primarily identify as Greeks, though most seem to be aware of their Albanian roots. As for the Vlachs (Aromanians), I'd imagine that they identify as Aromanians primarily, but also as Greeks though on a more secondary level. Not too sure on the identity of Aromanians in Greece, I'm mainly basing this on how the Aromanians of Albania identify.

    The I2 in Northern Greece is a result of the Slavic migrations for the most part, Albanian (Arvanite) migrations contributed to R-Z2705, J-L283 and some E-V13.
    Most Aromanians and Vlachs in Greece identify as Greeks first and Aromanians/Vlachs second. There has been an effort by different cultural organizations to preserve the traditional culture (music, dress, festivals, language) so it does not go by the wayside. But all the efforts are not to establish an ethnic identity but a cultural heritage. Same thing as the efforts to preserve the cultural heritage of Eastern/North Thrace, Pontic Greeks, Macedonia, Epirus, Mainland Greece, Crete, etc.

  21. #496
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    They disappeared man, but not like how the greeks here think, with smoke and suddenly they're not there. Do you want to know how they disappeared? They lost their identity and became greeks through the identity of the Orthodox Church, just like that R1b-BY611 from Thessaloniki who was shocked to match so many Ghegs and had no recollection of Arvanite ancestry.

    Most greeks have some foreign ancestry it seems, many of whom I've talked to have found Arvanits and Vlachs while searching their family tree. Slavic assimilation seems to have happened way before though.
    I've seen all of you big brain's talking about genes etc. Let me add to the discussion a historical fact. Let's answer the question "what happened to the Arvanites of thessaly?". Short answer: The Arvanites of southern Greece happened. Medium range answer: FINISH THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE BEFORE COMMENTING! Answer for people with learning difficulties: They moved to the south and the north (back to albania) after the Serbian and turkish conquests. Don't be stupid A.F. I'll give you a hint, as a history major, with a greek father and an albanian mother living in western Europe (I AM NOT NATIONALIST ****). If you are looking for albanian presence in Macedonia, thessaly, Western Greece(except Epirus). You won't find any. But. For all your interest in greek presence in albania, you haven't even scratched the surface(Read Strabo, Procopius, a ******* list with greek colonies). Some of you commented about "How could greeks be albanised without force????". Assimilation is a natural tendency in a every social groups where the socialy weaker adopt the identity of the socialy stringer. State assimilation is merely a boost to this natural mechanism. Greeks are not supreme race or culture. They are assimilated just as easily as the Albanians. in fact history would argue assimlating Greeks is very easy, since Greeks are generally as a culture are more open to change, something with as someone having albanian family members I assure you is not true for Albanians. To the extent that occasionally I want to start slapping half of the family table. Then again Albanians are really proud of being albanian, while Greeks are not so proud. Sure they like Their history, but albanians are passionate about Their identity. We could debate how little this has helped Their country, but I don't mind, I like the vacstisnsr there anyway. Anyway. I just wanted to correct some historical inaccuracies. You really cannot understand what you are talking about When you try to find subtle DNA differences while not knowing history. You are all DNA enthusiasts, but you back up geek levels of genetics with Wikipedia levels of history.

  22. #497
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    I always found Greeks genetics one of the most interesting.

  23. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archangel Michael View Post
    I always found Greeks genetics one of the most interesting.
    It's interesting because they reflect the history of the region since antiquatty to the modern day. Unlike other places there has not been a founder's effect or a population replacement. But I would say the genetics of Turkey, albania and Sicily are equally interesting for the same reasons

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