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Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Again, we can also make tables of ethnicities, at which point it's certainly OK to put Prussians in with Germans. In fact, if we made both tables, we could see how they compare, and deduce how ethnicities moved around, and how much ethnicities that were away from their homeland for a time picked up in terms of genetics from outside their ethnicity.
    Prussia is even more complicated, they had more Baltic genes than Germanic. After the WW2 most of the population was moved to East Germany by Stalin's order, not much left in Poland.

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    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    All right, maybe we are getting somewhere...
    Ah, the feelings, we are slaves to them, right? We can't do much because we feel something and we have to act upon it. It's pretty much how humans behave, it's pretty much the truth that we are slaves of feelings. Not sure why we are called homo sapiens then, if we are so overwhelmed by pure animal instincts?
    How you act and feel towards Turks and other neighbors is because your identity. You identify yourself as a Greek, no question about this. This is a product of being raised by Greek parents and education in Greek schools. Taking under consideration how subjective most people are, like most parents and teachers, and most historians that right school books, plus greek mass media, we can see and hear years of nationalistic greek education on pages of Eupedia. Off course take my words for it. I'm outsider and impartial to Greece and Turky, and I have very sharp sense of human attitude and emotions.
    You can't do much how you feel about other nations now, granted. Take under consideration a fact that if you were adopted by Turkish family as an infant, and raised by them till now. You would feel as proud Turk and act upon these feelings towards greeks for example. Your genetic heritage wouldn't mean a squat. You would feel like a Turk regardless of greek genes. You could blame your Turkish feelings for not understanding greek point of view.
    Did you ask yourself why do you act the way you do now? Did you ask yourself if it's good or beneficial to act this way? Is it worth or even proper in international community to act like this? How others feel if I act like this?
    By asking these and similar questions, by understanding and empathizing with others, you can change the way you feel in these social settings. Yes, you can change how you feel.
    I'm sorry but you are acting like a spoiled brat mister. "I can't do much because I feel this way." Try to act more, and grow up to the name of your spices, home sapiens.
    I really wish there was a Socrates these days in Greece. On other hand, he might have had a short life again, lol.


    Knowing the history of your region, how can you be 100 percent sure that you don't have Turkish blood in you, how?
    Hypothetically, how would you feel if today you learned that you were a Turkish kid adopted by Greek family? Would this change your feelings? Would you still feel 100% Greek? Would you start considering Turkey more like friends?
    the case is more complicated,
    simply with time and peace trust might gained,
    there many cases of respect and cases like you said,
    and many oposite,
    there still casus beli in 2011,
    besides that hostility serve both the politicians of each country,
    and the big powers who sell guns,

    the simple people are not murderers,
    even if good relation come,
    and many politicians work in that way, there will be always a bomber,
    centuries must pass,
    the only both have to do is respect international laws, and stop pushing hate to simple people,
    but 'warmheads' always exist, to bomb relations,

    besides how can you convise a neo-turk or a greek when he grand fathers were killed, and his family was forced to immigrate, etc
    it is not ww2 cases of war, it is more complicated,

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Not sure why we are called homo sapiens then, if we are so overwhelmed by pure animal instincts?
    If you think that feelings are animal insticts you are hillarious. Especially hate which is human specific...
    BTW cherry-picking a shortened phrase out of a post doesn't help your cause, right next to my quoted words I explain that I don't hate modern Turks (especially for crimes their supposed ancestors did to my supposed ancestors)
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    How you act and feel towards Turks and other neighbors is because your identity. You identify yourself as a Greek, no question about this. This is a product of being raised by Greek parents and education in Greek schools. Taking under consideration how subjective most people are, like most parents and teachers, and most historians that right school books, plus greek mass media, we can see and hear years of nationalistic greek education on pages of Eupedia. Off course take my words for it. I'm outsider and impartial to Greece and Turky, and I have very sharp sense of human attitude and emotions.
    You could place any other nationality of this planet instead of Greek and you would be still right. And you are not impartial to Greeks-others....
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    You can't do much how you feel about other nations now, granted. Take under consideration a fact that if you were adopted by Turkish family as an infant, and raised by them till now. You would feel as proud Turk and act upon these feelings towards greeks for example. Your genetic heritage wouldn't mean a squat. You would feel like a Turk regardless of greek genes. You could blame your Turkish feelings for not understanding greek point of view.
    I would feel like a proud Turk and I would definetely act as one (as a proud Turk not as a racist one)
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Did you ask yourself why do you act the way you do now? Did you ask yourself if it's good or beneficial to act this way? Is it worth or even proper in international community to act like this? How others feel if I act like this?
    How exactly do I act that is offending to anyone? Please define ''act like this''.
    I created this thread because Maciamo's table was wrong about Greece and he agreed and changed the frequencies. As for the rest of my argument about Ionian Greeks I didn't force anyone to accept my point of view allthough noone had any reasonable arguement against it.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    By asking these and similar questions, by understanding and empathizing with others, you can change the way you feel in these social settings. Yes, you can change how you feel.
    I'm sorry but you are acting like a spoiled brat mister. "I can't do much because I feel this way." Try to act more, and grow up to the name of your spices, home sapiens.
    I really wish there was a Socrates these days in Greece. On other hand, he might have had a short life again, lol.
    If Socrates was alive he would stand by my side not yours Le Brok...
    Remember that he was the best friend of truth and reason that was ever born on this planet. Do you think he would stand next to someone who can't argue properly but cherry-picks and changes the meaning of their interlocutor's words?
    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Knowing the history of your region, how can you be 100 percent sure that you don't have Turkish blood in you, how?
    Hypothetically, how would you feel if today you learned that you were a Turkish kid adopted by Greek family? Would this change your feelings? Would you still feel 100% Greek? Would you start considering Turkey more like friends?
    I'm almost sure because not even Anatolian Turks have much Turkish blood.
    Are you kidding? Adopted Turkish kid by a Greek family? How could this ever happen?
    But let's suppose that it did like you say. I would feel 100% Greek because it would be my culture and my heritage-if you don't love your family, your friends, your neighbores, the traditions of your people you are not worthy of living because you can't love anything...
    I never claimed that Greeks must be pure in their genes to be included under Greek nation. This is something only fascists and racists do.

  4. #104
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    Hahaha!!! I just visited the Eupedia Y-DNA tables and it seems Maciamo has put I2*+I2a (I2a1) under the same category while he kept I2b (I2a2) under it's own. How is it possible to connect I2* with I2a1 and leave I2a2 under a distinct category?
    Because I2a(I2a1) is closer to I2b(I2a2) than to I2*...

  5. #105
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    And it seems that he uses the average for each region to get final results only for Greece and not for Italy...I just used the same way he uses for Greece about Italy and the out come is totally different than his table's numbers (for example R1b=35.8 with the method he uses for Greeks while in Maciamo's table R1b=49.0!!!!!). I guess he will answer to me that Northern Italy is more populated than Southern Italy or Sicily so he had to give more weight to Central North but Greek regions don't have the same population either (Northern Greece has 3.000.000 people/Anatolian Greeks included, while Central Greece has 1.500.000 people and South Greece has 5.000.000 people).
    Aegean islands have a population of 500.000 and Crete around 1.000.000).....
    In a scientific forum you shouldn't change method in similar problems because your results will be manipulated.
    Finally my method in the starting post is more acurrate than Maciamo's (he actually uses this method for every other population except the Greeks) because samples correlate better with real population.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Prussia is even more complicated, they had more Baltic genes than Germanic. After the WW2 most of the population was moved to East Germany by Stalin's order, not much left in Poland.
    Have you read any of my posts? Because Ionian Greeks were expelled from Turkey (after 1922) and they all currently live in Greece, not much left in Turkey. That's why so little E-V13 is left there, ALL Greeks have gone.
    And Maciamo insists that genetical Greeks who live in Greece, speak Greek and identify as Greeks should be classified under Turkey all though not even one of them lives there now. How much more absurd can one be?

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    Other mistakes of Maciamo. With his method Greek R1b=15.8 which would become 16 not 15.5... little incosistances that reveal the bias towards Greeks.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Besides Sinope/Sinop all other Pontic Greek cities were founded by Greeks. Amissos/Samsun was a colony of Sinope and nothing is known for the settlement before Greeks arrived (there could be a little native settlement but I doubt because Greeks usually colonized free seaside areas suitable for trade with the inlanders). Trapezous/Trabzon is a colony of Sinope and always had a Greek name. Nicomedia/Iznik was founded by Dorian-Megarians (Megara-Greece) with the name 'Astakos' but was later renamed Nicomedia in honor of Nicomedes of Bithynia. Megarians also founded Heracleia Pontica/Eregli and it's named after Heracles (a Dorian hero)
    When the Greeks settled among natives they didn't enslave them as you say nor did they Hellenized them by force...it was a long proccess of natives adopting Greek culture and intergrating into the main Greek population (Christianity and Roman Empire helped a lot)
    the colonization period in that regions is about 600 BC. So, do you mean that there was no settlement in the mentioned locations till that time? people had alphabeth, wheel, they invent agriculture, they moved to europe using that route thousands years before greeks arrived there.

    i will give you 2 examples for instance. search for kashka people (BC 1500 in trabzon area), and mariadyn people (BC~1500, around heraklia region).

    greek colonies selected especially populated regions since they had manpower problem. sinope and heraklia was the biggest natural ports in that period.

    by the way, i understand that you should hate russia, ukraine, italy etc. for the same reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Have you read any of my posts? Because Ionian Greeks were expelled from Turkey (after 1922) and they all currently live in Greece, not much left in Turkey. That's why so little E-V13 is left there, ALL Greeks have gone.
    And Maciamo insists that genetical Greeks who live in Greece, speak Greek and identify as Greeks should be classified under Turkey all though not even one of them lives there now. How much more absurd can one be?
    you say even the anatolian turks do not have too much turkish blood; you claim that west anatolians Y dna is different than other parts of anatolia and closer to greece; greeks left the anatolia after 1922. which one is correct.

    i believe symrna have too much greek blood. however, they feel like completely turkish and do not lik e greece because of heavy propoganda after 1922.
    http://g.mynet.com/i/179/5213_0.jpg
    *this photo from a meeting of a political party. and it is not against greece. in turkey the feelings against greece is not pure hate, lets say "dislike".
    Last edited by barbarian; 24-07-11 at 12:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    you say even the anatolian turks do not have too much turkish blood;
    I'm not the one who claims Anatolian Turks don't have a lot of original Turkish blood, scientific papers do.
    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    you claim that west anatolians Y dna is different than other parts of anatolia and closer to greece; greeks left the anatolia after 1922. which one is true.
    Can you read? Can you understand what you read?
    I never claimed that Western Anatolian (Turk) Y-DNA is different than other parts of Anatolia. What I said is that Western Anatolian (Greek) Y-DNA should be closer to Greek Y-DNA than Eastern Anatolian (Greek) Y-DNA because of more native Anatolian origin of Pontic Greeks and Cappadocians (they are the Eastern Anatolian Greeks).
    I also explained that Anatolian Greeks and Anatolian Turks are not identical because [Anatolian + GREEK = Anatolian Greek], while [Anatolian + TURK = Anatolian Turk]
    You seem to suggest that [Blue + Sky = Blue Sky], is the same with [Blue + Sea = Blue Sea] because they are both blue...
    QUOTE=barbarian;376575]i believe symrna have too much greek blood. however, they feel like completely turkish and do not lik e greece because of heavy propoganda after 1922.[/QUOTE]How many times do I have to explain the same things? Are you people not clever enough or t-r-o-l-l-s? Turks that currently live in Izmir/Smyrne haven't got any relation with the study about Smyrnian Greeks of Roy King.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    when they first came , some 'wise quys' called them Turks espeacially the SEbasteia ones, cause there it was forbiden to speak Greek, it was an insult to them, cause they were proud that kept Greek ID for 400 years,
    Allthough there were Turkish speaking Orthodox people in Sebasteia and Western Pontus who identified as Greeks, my fathers family (and all people in their village) who trace their origins there spoke Pontic Greek dialect (offcourse they could speak Turkish too) while the people from next village in Sebasteia who settled in Greece spoke only Turkish... Any way I consider them full Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    How long do you think it's appropriate to hate or dislike other nations for past crimes? Ten years, Hundred Years, One Thousand Years, Forever?
    Untill the crime has come to justice, why do you ask such a question? Why do you think the armenians will not stop untill Turkey apologizes for their genocide, but your attititue is "oh we know you guys were almost killled off on en-messe during WW1, your entire people almost wiped out, but that was a long time ago get over it!". I expect more from you then a sweep it under the rug attitude.

    And to answer your question on how do you know I don't have turkish (muslim) ancestory, I will answer this in two parts. One, "turkish" isn't an enthinicty, its the term used for muslims in anatolia, these muslims come from very diffent ethnic backgrounds. The original turkic otomans were indeed turkic people, but DNA has revealed that their impact on the population in anatolia is very minimal, and the people living in Turkey are on a whole native to the land.

    And secondly, islamic law during the ottoman empire meant it was illegal to turn from muslim to orthodox christian, but not vis-versa. So if my fathers side was still christian 600 years after the original turks came to anatolia, there was a good chance, chance meaning not 100% certainty, that they were always christian, meaning no one married or intermingled with a muslims (meaning turk). Of course you can not count out rape.

    For this reason, and their determination to keep their christian identity, and thus greek identity after 600 years, is why I take it as an insult if all of a sudden I would be labelled as a turk, not because I think of them as lesser people, but because of what my ancestors went through for 600 years.


    @ Maciamo

    If kurdistan is a seperate entity for DNA study, I believe Ionia should be too. Not just because anatolian greeks shouldn't be lumped into turkey studies, but because the Ionian region in turkey differs than the rest of turkey as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    If kurdistan is a seperate entity for DNA study, I believe Ionia should be too. Not just because anatolian greeks shouldn't be lumped into turkey studies, but because the Ionian region in turkey differs than the rest of turkey as well.
    Nope, the Ionian region is not different than other Turkish regions (at least not that much different)...It is the Ionian GREEKS who USED TO LIVE in the Ionian region who are different than Turks...

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Nope, the Ionian region is not different than other Turkish regions (at least not that much different)...It is the Ionian GREEKS who USED TO LIVE in the Ionian region who are different than Turks...
    please cool down. may be we, the turks(?) or whatever we are, are not good in science as you mentioned before.

    just to clarify: are you saying ionian greeks left the country after 1922? so the greek blood is minimal in west anatolia now?

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    THERE IS NO GREEKS!!!

    Modern Greeks are not same as ancient greeks dont know why some compare a population of mixed inhabitants and making them pure ancient people.
    If any here continue with fake information it will be repost of evidence.
    Modern Greeks = Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, Syrians, Slavs, Sub-saharans and many more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post

    And secondly, islamic law during the ottoman empire meant it was illegal to turn from muslim to orthodox christian, but not vis-versa. So if my fathers side was still christian 600 years after the original turks came to anatolia, there was a good chance, chance meaning not 100% certainty, that they were always christian, meaning no one married or intermingled with a muslims (meaning turk).

    @ Maciamo

    If kurdistan is a seperate entity for DNA study, I believe Ionia should be too. Not just because anatolian greeks shouldn't be lumped into turkey studies, but because the Ionian region in turkey differs than the rest of turkey as well.
    dont you think these two parts contradictary with each other.

    if there is no mix in 600 years why there will be a difference in the genetic background.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Hahaha!!! I just visited the Eupedia Y-DNA tables and it seems Maciamo has put I2*+I2a (I2a1) under the same category while he kept I2b (I2a2) under it's own. How is it possible to connect I2* with I2a1 and leave I2a2 under a distinct category?
    Because I2a(I2a1) is closer to I2b(I2a2) than to I2*...
    Do you know of anywhere other than Crete that has more than trace I2*? It would not be a very useful column to have I2* be 0% everywhere except Crete. And we're still just estimating how much I2 in Crete is I2* and how much is I2a, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Hahaha!!! I just visited the Eupedia Y-DNA tables and it seems Maciamo has put I2*+I2a (I2a1) under the same category while he kept I2b (I2a2) under it's own. How is it possible to connect I2* with I2a1 and leave I2a2 under a distinct category?
    Because I2a(I2a1) is closer to I2b(I2a2) than to I2*...
    Simply because I2* is quite rare (not enough data to have its own column) and it occurs mostly in regions where I2a2 is more common.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Other mistakes of Maciamo. With his method Greek R1b=15.8 which would become 16 not 15.5... little incosistances that reveal the bias towards Greeks.
    Why is that a bias ? Is R1b a superior or more desirable haplogroup than the others in your eyes ? Why do you wish to have more R1b (even 0.5% more) in your country ? Get a life ! The tables are very rough approximations based on very sparse data (1/10000 of the population at most). Anyhow, if you want to know, I have 196 R1b samples for Greece out of 1261 samples. That's exactly 15.5432%, so 15.5%. If you count the average by region, you get 15.8%, but evening out the two figures we get 15.65% (15.5%+15.8%/2), which is still rounded up to 15.5%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    THERE IS NO GREEKS!!!

    Modern Greeks are not same as ancient greeks dont know why some compare a population of mixed inhabitants and making them pure ancient people.
    If any here continue with fake information it will be repost of evidence.
    Modern Greeks = Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, Syrians, Slavs, Sub-saharans and many more.


    Wow
    ok modern Greeks are not ancient Greeks

    THEN HOW WE CALL A SERBIAN THAT SPEAKS BULGARIAN, HAS BULGARIAN CULTURE AND HIS DREAM IS TO BE GREEK?

    OR HOW WE SAY A GREEK THAT FOLLOW's THE BOG's CHURCH, SPEAKS SLAVIC (change language) and damage Makedonia at WW2 for shake of communism?

    hmmm surely not Makedonian, maybe Bugarian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    please cool down. may be we, the turks(?) or whatever we are, are not good in science as you mentioned before.

    just to clarify: are you saying ionian greeks left the country after 1922? so the greek blood is minimal in west anatolia now?
    Again I'm not claiming anything, it's a historical fact. Have you ever heard of the Greek-Turkish population ex-change of 1922?
    Any way in Ionia region there should be some Greek blood, either from Ionian Greeks or from some of the Balkan Turks who settled there after the Greeks left (most of them Cretan Turks).

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    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Why is that a bias ? Is R1b a superior or more desirable haplogroup than the others in your eyes ? Why do you wish to have more R1b (even 0.5% more) in your country ? Get a life !
    In fact it is YOU who think that R1b is a superior haplogroup (Kings and nobles of the Indo-Europeans) and E1b1b is a haplogroup that leads to lazyness and corruption. I don't give a shit if we have 5% or 95% of R1b, I just wanted your numbers to be closer to the TRUTH.
    Your whole bias is revealed because you are naming R1b, I and R1a ''European'' and continiously try to lower Greek R1b and increase E1b1b and J2 so Greeks would look more Middle Eastern. If by new studies Greeks are proven to belong 50% to E1b1b and 50% to J, I would be the first to correct my results and admit it.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    THERE IS NO GREEKS!!!

    Modern Greeks are not same as ancient greeks
    How do you know that? You would have to know exactly who the ancient Greeks were to compare them with modern Greeks to prove your statement. But you don't even know who your ancestors were (Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs, Macedonian Greeks, Turks, Serbs?) so knowing who ancient or modern Greeks are is imposible for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    dont know why some compare a population of mixed inhabitants and making them pure ancient people.
    If any here continue with fake information it will be repost of evidence.
    WHO is comparing a population of mixxed inhabitants and making them PURE ancient people. You Skopians are even less good with
    Modern Greeks = Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, Syrians, Slavs, Sub-saharans and many more.[/QUOTE]

  24. #124
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    DejaVu you have to start reading what the others write in order to reply with at least some credibility. I never claimed that Greeks are pure (NO modern nation is pure) I have made it perfectly clear that for me it is culture that defines ethnicity.
    BTW you are really stupid if you think that Modern Greeks are everything else (Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, Syrians, Slavs, SUB-SAHARANS [0% Sub-Saharan influence in Greece] except Greeks. Where do you think ancient Greeks have gone, to Northern Europe?

  25. #125
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1a3 V22+
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    Ethnic group of those who are going to die.
    Country: Spain



    What do they have of individual them R?, please, the world is on the verge of bursting through the fault of them. Who has said to them that it is necessary to go so rapidly?, we are going to jump all for the airs to this step. They should learn as the Greeks and the ancient Phoenicians were doing the things, now R have put a rocket in the bottom to the world and the wick is already lit.

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