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Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    "The 1911 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica gave the following statistical estimates about the population of Macedonia:

    • Bulgarians (described in encyclopaedia as "Slavs, the bulk of which is regarded by almost all independent sources as Bulgarians", a statement referring to the controversy between Bulgaria and Serbia as to the national affinities of the Slavs of Macedonia): ca. 1,150,000, whereof, 1,000,000 Orthodox and 150,000 Muslims (called Pomaks)
    • Turks: ca. 500,000 (Muslims)
    • Greeks: ca. 250,000, whereof ca. 240,000 Orthodox and 14,000 Muslims
    • Albanians: ca. 120,000, whereof 10,000 Orthodox and 110,000 Muslims
    • Vlachs: ca. 90,000 Orthodox and 3,000 Muslims
    • Jews: ca. 75,000
    • Roma: ca. 50,000, whereof 35,000 Orthodox and 15,000 Muslims

    In total 1,300,000 Christians (almost exclusively Orthodox), 800,000 Muslims, 75,000 Jews, a total population of ca. 2,200,000 for the whole of Macedonia."


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Macedonia

    There, I highlighted for you the real macedonians of macedonia in 1911.
    Time to refresh your sub-saharan memory

    AS A CONTESTED space Macedonia in the late nineteenth century suffered political, religious and paramilitary incursions made upon the population by the neighbouring nascent states and the disappearing Ottoman empire. Territorial claims were rationalised by ethnographic maps and statistical population data. Interested commentators viewed Macedonia in accordance with government policy and presented their studies as academic and scientific, even though these studies were clearly political in nature. The European Powers maintained their own pretence and acted as patrons of the small Balkan States. Although churches, schools and paramilitary bands were the primary instruments of the Greek, Bulgarian and Serb states, expansion into Macedonia was ultimately achieved by a full military mobilisation when the armies of Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia marched into Macedonia in October 1912 and drove out the Ottoman Turks. The territorial division of Macedonia and claims upon the Macedonians have continued to be a matter of contention between the Balkan States into contemporary times.



    Neutral Statistics on the Population of Macedonia:

    1. Dr. K. Ostreich. Die Bevolkerung von Makedonien. Leipzig, 1905.
    2. K. Gersin. Macedonian und das Turkische Problem. Wien, 1903.
    3. Andrew Roussos. The British Foreign Office and Macedonian National Identity 1918 - 1941.

    Macedonian Slavs (Did not call themselfs Macedonian slavs only Macedonians)
    1. 1,500,000
    2. 1,182,036
    3. 1,150,000

    Serbs
    -
    -
    -

    Bulgarians
    -
    -
    -

    Greeks (Did not call themselfs Macedonians only Greeks)
    1. 200,000
    2. 228,702
    3. 300,000

    Turks and others
    1. 550,000
    2. 627,915
    3. 400,000



    Statistics without "Macedonians"
    There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them.

    1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
    Vilaet of Thessalonica - 373.227 (Greeks) - 207.317 (Bulgarians)
    Vilaet of Monastir - 261.283 (Greeks) - 178.412 (Bulgarians)
    Santzak of Skopje - 13.452 (Greeks) - 172.735 (Bulgarians)

    2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
    Muslims - 423.000
    Greeks - 259.000
    Bulgarians - 178.000
    Serbs - 13.150
    Others (Jews) - 73.000

    Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their religious background, not ethnic. In Macedonia at that moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe, and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered Muslims, Jews, and the Christian Macedoniansweredivided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows.

    3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia occupied by Greece in 1913 lived:
    Turks - 2.000
    Greeks - 1.341.000
    Bulgarisants - 77.000
    Others (Jews) - 91.000

    Submitted to the League of the Nations by the Greek government and it is clear that it is biased. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language.


    Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population
    The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality.

    Nikolaides, 1899 (Greek)
    Slav Macedonians - 454.000
    Greeks - 656.300
    Turks and others - 576.600

    Kenchov, 1900 (Bulgarian)
    Serbs - 400
    Bulgarians - 1.037.000
    Greeks - 214.000
    Turks and others - 610.365

    Gopchevich, 1886 (Serbian)
    Serbs - 1.540.000
    Greeks - 201.000
    Turks and others - 397.020


    Forced Change of the Ethnic Structure of Aegean Macedonia
    The presence of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia could not allow Greece to claim that land to be Greek and only Greek. Since it was proven that they resisted the Hellenization, Greece decided to drive them out of Macedonia. Greece made agreements with Bulgaria (signed 10/27/19), and Turkey (1/30/23 in Lausanne), for exchange of population. This provided for the Macedonians of Aegean to leave for Bulgaria, while the Greeks in Bulgaria and Turkey settled in the Aegean part of Macedonia. These measures changed the ethnic character of the Aegean Macedonia. According to the "Great Greek Encyclopedia", there were 1,221,849 newcomers against 80,000 "slavophones". The "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926," claims there were 119,000 "bulgarisants" in 1912, and 77,000 in 1926. The Greek ethnic map of Aegean Macedonia was submitted to the League of the nations by the Greek government. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting this statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language. There are also other Greek sources that contradict the previous numbers of the Macedonians in Greece. The Athenian newspaper, "Message d' Aten" wrote on February 15, 1913, that the number of "Bulgar-echarhists" was 199,590 contradicting with those 119,000 of the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia".

    How many Macedonians remained in Greece?
    When the Bulgarian and Serbian views are added, the confusion gets only bigger. According to the Bulgarian Rumenov, in 1928 there were total of 206,435 "Bulgarians", while the Serb Bora Milojevich claimed 250,000 "Slavs" in Aegean Macedonia. Belgrade's "Politika" in its 6164 issue of June 24, 1925 gave three times greater numbers for the Macedonians in Greece than official Athens:
    "The Greek government must not complain that we are pointing to the fact that the Macedonian population of West Macedonia - 250,000 - 300,000 - is the most unfortunate national and linguistic minority in the world, not only because their personal safety in endangered, but also because they have no church nor school in their own language, and they had them during the Turkish rule."
    The speculations with the real number of Macedonians is obvious again. Their true number remains disputable in the Balkan documents, same as it was the case before the partition of 1912. Unfortunately, the Greek government would not allow anybody, including neutral observers to conduct statistical studies. Forced to leave, the Macedonians emigrated in large numbers to Australia, Canada, and the USA. As a result, there are about 300,000 Macedonians that presently live in Australia. In the city of Toronto, Canada, there are about 100,000. The present Macedonian colonies in these counties are represented mostly by the descendants of those Aegean Macedonians who settled there in the 1920's.
    According to the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926", only 42,000 left their homes. If we take the statistical tables of the Balkan and neutral sources above, by 1913 in the whole of Macedonia lived around 1,250,000 Macedonians. In the Aegean part (51%) which Greece took after 1913, half of the Macedonian nation remained under Greek rule - that would be 625,000 people. If up to 1926 42,000 out of these 625,000 left, in the Greek part of Macedonian thereafter remained 583,000 Macedonians.

  2. #152
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    yo guys I am tired of dejavu,

    2 threads are for that case, so plz

    no need to repeat again,

    he forgets the 00 000 Greeks that lived in Fyrom and all dissapear due to communism and fasist methods of ex Yugoslavia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    The death toll of the greek genocide was between 250,000 to 350,000 people, not 15.
    What are your sources ? Wikipedia writes between 13 and 17 killed. It also says that there were only 120,000 Greeks living in Turkey in 1927, so how could they have killed 250,000 to 350,000 of them ?

    The bombing of Attaturks house was done by a turk with the goal to incite violence against the greeks in con/polios and drive them out. It was all planned;
    Ok, I missed that part.

    Cyrpus isn't greece but has greeks in it.
    So does Italy, and the USA, and Australia, and many other places. Wikipedia writes that there are up to 3 million Greek Americans, against only 650,000 Greeks in Cyprus (about the same as Greeks in the UK). So why would you care more about Greeks in Cyprus than in the US or Britain ? If you count all the South Italians that emigrated around the world (roughly 20 million out of 25 million Italian living outside Italy) as Greeks, since most are genetically Greek, that is twice the population of Greece itself. So what is so special about Cyprus ? In ancient times it wasn't even part of Greece but was colonised by Levantine people, then became in turn Assyrian, Phoenician, Egyptian and Persian ! It only became Greek for the first time when Alexander conquered the whole Middle East, but so were Iraq or Afghanistan. Cypriots may have adopted the Greek language (and English when it was a British protectorate), but their Y-DNA is closer to Lebanon.


    Allow me to give another example on why greeks don't look at turks very kindly. The patriach Bartholomew, who is a turkish citizen, is the "pope" of not just greeks but every orthodox person. He is forced to have 24 hours protection and his conplex in Constantinopolis has high fences with bared wire because he receives constant death threat and actual assassination attempts from turkish fanatics. This tradition of the patriarch has been around since christianity started yet turks don't respect him or his position and what he stands for.
    You are not going to soften me up with examples of religious buffoons. Christians and Muslims are hardly different from my atheistic point of view. They are like dialects of the same language - a very foreign language indeed.

    Go ahead and ban me if you think I'm being childish because I don't want to be classified as a turk. I am not a turk, my parents were not turks, nor my grandparents. They came from a classical greek region that doesn't exist anymore due to war and ethnic "purging" of christians in asia minor during ww1.
    I never ever said that I was going to classify anybody with Anatolian Greek ancestry as Turk. Just under Turkey (or Anatolia), the region, which is completely different. How many times shall I mention it before it registers ?
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  4. #154
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    macciamo,

    the bond of Greeks with cyprus in before History,

    I repeat the arcado-cypriots, the Cadmeians etc
    and in Mycenae times the return for copper,

    Both areas are considered in the wide meaning Greeks,
    wider menaning is the same that you classify Franks as Germanic os others,

    the Greeks is Family of nations, like the ones you call germanic Nations, and only the population of Greeks,
    in fact it is difficult to give a name, so Greeks use the word wide, ευρεια ενοια
    if we use use the word Hellenes, for the dwells of Greece, the the word Hellanic should included pop from italy cyprus ucraine etc
    similar Germany and Germanic Nations,
    austria is another state but we consider them Germanic Nation,
    same is with Greeks,
    according the Greek statistics the wide Nation is >30 000 000 while the greek from Greece is about 20 000 000

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    yo guys I am tired of dejavu,

    2 threads are for that case, so plz

    no need to repeat again,

    he forgets the 00 000 Greeks that lived in Fyrom and all dissapear due to communism and fasist methods of ex Yugoslavia
    80-90% Macedonians lived in the Region of Macedonia before occupation and partition and that was before any Greeks (brainwashed people and adopted new identity) existed. If you sub-saharans want to continue, do so, then its time to refresh your denying facts with reposts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What are your sources ? Wikipedia writes between 13 and 17 killed. It also says that there were only 120,000 Greeks living in Turkey in 1927, so how could they have killed 250,000 to 350,000 of them ?
    The greek genocide was done prior to 1927; and here is the wiki pages detailing it;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

    "According to various sources the Greek death toll in the Pontus region of Anatolia ranges from 300,000 to 360,000. Estimates for the death toll of Anatolian Greeks as a whole are significantly higher.
    According to the International League for the Rights and Liberation of Peoples, between 1916 and 1923, up to 350,000 Greek Pontians were reportedly killed in massacres, persecution and death marches.[36] Merrill D. Peterson cites the death toll of 360,000 for the Greeks of Pontus.[37] According to George K. Valavanis "The loss of human life among the Pontian Greeks, since the Great War (World War I) until March 1924, can be estimated at 353,000, as a result of murders, hangings, and from punishment, disease, and other hardships."[38]
    Constantine G Hatzidimitriou writes that "loss of life among Anatolian Greeks during the WWI period and its aftermath was approximately 735,370."[39] Edward Hale Bierstadt states that "According to official testimony, the Turks since 1914 have slaughtered in cold blood 1,500,000 Armenians, and 500,000 Greeks, men women and children, without the slightest provocation.".[40] At the Lausanne conference in late 1922 the British Foreign Minister Lord Curzon is recorded as saying "a million Greeks have been killed, deported or have died."[41]"



    Maybe you confuse the two seratate instances of the greek genocide and the constantinople progrom.



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    So does Italy, and the USA, and Australia, and many other places. Wikipedia writes that there are up to 3 million Greek Americans, against only 650,000 Greeks in Cyprus (about the same as Greeks in the UK). So why would you care more about Greeks in Cyprus than in the US or Britain ? If you count all the South Italians that emigrated around the world (roughly 20 million out of 25 million Italian living outside Italy) as Greeks, since most are genetically Greek, that is twice the population of Greece itself. So what is so special about Cyprus ? In ancient times it wasn't even part of Greece but was colonised by Levantine people, then became in turn Assyrian, Phoenician, Egyptian and Persian ! It only became Greek for the first time when Alexander conquered the whole Middle East, but so were Iraq or Afghanistan. Cypriots may have adopted the Greek language (and English when it was a British protectorate), but their Y-DNA is closer to Lebanon.
    Big difference between emegrating to countries and land of origin and significance. Cyprus was colonised by greeks in ancient times before alexander.




    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You are not going to soften me up with examples of religious buffoons. Christians and Muslims are hardly different from my atheistic point of view. They are like dialects of the same language - a very foreign language indeed.
    Doesn't matter, I'm an athiest too, but the the majority of greeks who are not, he holds a significant religious and historical value, and for me, it's the latter.



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I never ever said that I was going to classify anybody with Anatolian Greek ancestry as Turk. Just under Turkey (or Anatolia), the region, which is completely different. How many times shall I mention it before it registers ?
    I think the use of Anatolia as the term would be better.

    I started this "rant" because you said you can't understand why there is tension between these two countries 700 years after the first conflict. I tried to explain to you how it is not about what happened 700 years ago but quite recently and still continuous, and gave examples. I hope I was somewhat informative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What are your sources ? Wikipedia writes between 13 and 17 killed. It also says that there were only 120,000 Greeks living in Turkey in 1927, so how could they have killed 250,000 to 350,000 of them ?
    Sources? Modern Greeks dont need sources they rely on the fairytales. Maybe resurrection occured of Hercules and told the greeks about the information?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    Macedonian Slavs (Did not call themselfs Macedonian slavs only Macedonians)
    1. 1,500,000
    2. 1,182,036
    3. 1,150,000
    I bolded your big lie. The term macedonian slav was instilled on the slavic population by outside observers to the situation who did not want to offend serbian and bulgarian nationalism and goals in the region by labeling them strickly serb of bulgar, so they used the term macedonian slav. In either case, they are slavic and have no connection to the ancient macedonian greeks.

    "The first significant manifestation of Slav Macedonian nationalism was the book За Македонските Работи (Za Makedonckite Raboti - On Macedonian Matters, Sofia, 1903) by Krste Misirkov. In the book Misirkov advocated that the Slavs of Macedonia should take a separate way from the Bulgarians and the Bulgarian language. Misirkov considered that the term "Macedonian" should be used to define the whole Slavic population of Macedonia, obliterating the existing division between Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians."

    "While Misirkov talked about the Macedonian consciousness and the Macedonian language as a future goal, he described the wider region of Macedonia in the early 20th century as inhabited by Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Turks, Albanians, Aromanians, and Jews. As regards to the Ethnic Macedonians themselves, Misirkov maintained that they had called themselves Bulgarians"


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Macedonia

    Who is artificial and fake now dejavu?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    I bolded your big lie. The term macedonian slav was instilled on the slavic population by outside observers to the situation who did not want to offend serbian and bulgarian nationalism and goals in the region by labeling them strickly serb of bulgar, so they used the term macedonian slav. In either case, they are slavic and have no connection to the ancient macedonian greeks.

    "The first significant manifestation of Slav Macedonian nationalism was the book За Македонските Работи (Za Makedonckite Raboti - On Macedonian Matters, Sofia, 1903) by Krste Misirkov. In the book Misirkov advocated that the Slavs of Macedonia should take a separate way from the Bulgarians and the Bulgarian language. Misirkov considered that the term "Macedonian" should be used to define the whole Slavic population of Macedonia, obliterating the existing division between Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians."

    "While Misirkov talked about the Macedonian consciousness and the Macedonian language as a future goal, he described the wider region of Macedonia in the early 20th century as inhabited by Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Turks, Albanians, Aromanians, and Jews. As regards to the Ethnic Macedonians themselves, Misirkov maintained that they had called themselves Bulgarians"


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Macedonia

    Who is artificial and fake now dejavu?
    And what haplogroups are slavic or Bulgarian from that population? You want more reposts sub-saharan?

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    Krste Misirkov - The self-determination of the Macedonians, 1925!

    The self-determination of the Macedonians

    My article Macedonian Nationalism, which appeared in Mir on 12 March this year, aroused the ire of the paper “Svobodna rech”, which described me as “a man who still does not even know his own nationality”, a “simple-minded thinker who is capable of writing nonsense, of sinking even lower”, and who is “well-known for having once served in the Serbian propaganda service” and for lending his support to the theories of the Belgrade professor Cvjic concerning the existence of a separate Macedonian nationality”. As a result of these slanders against me in “Svobodna rech” many of my own townsfolk turned in fury upon me, and there were even some people who thoughtlessly claimed that they knew that in my student days I had attended assemblies of both the Bulgarian and the Serbian students and that this was why I had been driven out of the Bulgarian assemblies.
    Similar senseless accusations were made in “Svobodna rech” and, as was only to be expected, these false rumors spread around Karlovo. This, however, did not greatly disturb me, as would have been clear to anyone who had read my article in “Mir” and who knew anything about my past… I knew full well that I would be attacked for my Macedonian Nationalism and that my article could certainly not be published in “Ilinden”. Nevertheless, although I was far from sure that it would be printed in “Mir”, I wrote out the article and sent it to this journal. And two days after it had appeared, “Svobodna rech” made me out to be a man who does not know his own nationality.
    I was fully aware that I will be attacked for my “Macedonian nationalism”, that this article has no chance to be published in “Ilinden”, and I was not even sure that they will print it in “Mir”. I still wrote the article and sent it to the newspaper “Mir”. On the second day after its printing “Svobodna rech” named me a man that does not know his ethnicity.
    Unfortunately “Svobodna rech” cannot make me give up my “lowly reasoning”. I still find that Macedonia today is butchered, that Greeks took their best parts, and have chased away the Macedonian population and replaced them with Asiatic new-comers that today are piled up next to the Serbian and Bulgarian border, the same as once the Byzantine Emperors were establishing next to the Bulgarian border military settlements of the Asiatic colonists: Armenians and Paulikians. I also find that if Serbs and Bulgarians do not find peace, and Macedonians are not included in voluntary cooperation with both Bulgarians and Serbs for safeguarding against the Greek wave that slowly, but surely moves from south toward north, all of us: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians will drown in the non-Slavic see that surrounds us from all sides. I think that only in agreement and cooperation between Serbs, Macedonians and Bulgarians is the salvation for all of us. Serbs and Bulgarians were fighting, Greeks and Romanians were profiting: they lost Macedonia, Trace and Dobrudza.
    The most important condition for a cooperation between Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians, however, is the freedom of self-determination of Macedonians. And that is why, regarding this last issue, I emphasized the principle of the Macedonian patriotism and nationalism, as a fully neutral and satisfying for all: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians alike; but for now it is more correct to say that it is equally unsatisfying for all: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians.
    Since it is primarily us Macedonians that are suffering from the Serb-Bulgarian conflict, it is our duty to search for means and ways of resolving that conflict. That is forcing us “to know” up to the current day our nationality and to tell both Serbs and Bulgarians: forget about your big-Serb and big-Bulgarian ideas, give up enforcing your nationalism and patriotism on us, since it basically is putting your interests up front instead of ours. Let us have our own understanding for our relations toward you and your conflict about us and our fatherland, as well as for the means that will bring us to a general South Slav benefit. Let us have our own Macedonian national feelings and to create Macedonian culture, as we did that during the ages when our fatherland was not part of the same state with yours.
    As Macedonians we will be more useful for all: for Macedonia, for Bulgaria and for Serbia and in general for the whole South Slav community, than as Bulgarians and Serbs.
    As a Bulgarian I would have said long time ago: What Macedonia! It is good for me here too. I don’t need to think for what is already lost. But as Macedonian, in Bulgaria I feel as in a foreign land, although between brothers, I’m not at home, in my fatherland. My fatherland is there, where I have been born and where I should leave my bones, where my son should go at least, if I am not allowed to go myself.
    The awareness and the feeling that I am Macedonian should stand higher than everything else in the world. Macedonians should not let themselves been assimilated and to lose their individuality living among Bulgarians and Serbs. We can acknowledge the closeness of the Serb, Bulgarians and Macedonian interests, but we need to evaluate them from the Macedonian stand point of view.
    Uncompromising and unlimited love toward Macedonia, the constant thinking and working for the interests of Macedonia and the full conservativism in the manifestations of the Macedonian national spirit: the language, the national poetry, mentality and customs – those are the main characteristics of the Macedonian nationalism, demonstrated through “lowly reasonings of a man that still does not know his nationality”.
    But we are not egoists. We don’t think only about ourselves. We are ready to make a good service to both Serbs and Bulgarians, but only if that service is voluntary and not forced.
    How we can serve Serbs: we will all die, and we will not let the Greek foot to cross the current border of the Serb and Bulgarian Macedonia. But we will do that as Macedonians, and not as Serbs. We will fight with Greeks because they are our only historic and age old enemies. Our complete Macedonian national history is full with fights against Greeks. There is no fight with Bulgarians and Serbs recorded in the Macedonian history. Bulgarians and Serbs have respected the national rights of the Macedonians in the middle ages, and it was only Greeks that were destroying our national spirit and were de-nationalizing us. They even to the current day are chasing us away from our native fireplaces, and are reminding us that we have an age old obligation to chase the un-invited guests from our grand father’s and great grand-father’s lands.
    That is the Macedonian national feeling, which is the historic call of every Macedonian that can be fulfilled only as a free and equal citizen of Yugoslavia, allowed to think and feel and talk and act as Macedonian.

    K. Misirkov: The self-determination of Macedonians, “Mir”, 7427, 25. III 1925, 1.

    Here is the real evidence who are Bulgarians and who are Macedonians. If you have problem with it sub-saharan seek help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    The greek genocide was done prior to 1927; and here is the wiki pages detailing it;

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide
    That was the First World War, in which 16.5 million died. The Germans and Austrians killed 3.3 million Russians, 1.7 million French people and 1.2 million British subjects, and they in turn killed 2.5 million Germans and 1.5 million Austro-Hungarians, but nobody calls that a genocide. So why should it be different for the Greeks and Armenians ? Because they were less well equipped to fight back ? Because they were civilians ? Almost 7 million civilians died in WWI. That's war. Once again I reiterate my question to the Greeks on this forum that hold deep-rooted grudges and hatred against the Turks. Is that because of events that happened in WWI, before any of you, your parents and probably your grandparents were even born ?

    There would be no European Union if people didn't learn to forgive and get over with their lives and start rebuilding new relationships learning from past mistakes, no mater how gruesome. Yet it is France and Germany, the two giant archenemy of erstwhile, that decided to cement peace for future generations through mutual friendship and cooperation. They set the example for the continent and the EU has been a success in fostering peace, respect and multiculturalism. The only people who haven't learned their lessons yet are the Greeks. I think this should be ground enough to expel Greece from the EU, until it has found a way to mend its relationship with Turkey. Until then both countries should be on a waiting list. The only reason that Greece was accepted so early in the EU was the prestige of its ancient history among Europeans. What I see here is that a lot of Greeks aren't mature enough for the EU, not more than countries like Serbia, that only seek to conflict with its neighbours.

    Maybe you confuse the two seratate instances of the greek genocide and the constantinople progrom.
    We were discussing the Istanbul pogrom. I quoted the figure of 15 people killed and you quoted me saying it was between 250,000 to 350,000. It's you who brought up the WWI casualties to illustrate the 1955 pogrom - two completely unrelated events in place and time. I probably misunderstood you because I don't use the word "genocide" for war casualties (unless there is a true, organised extermination programme, with specially designed camps, to completely eradicate a whole ethnic group from the face of the Earth, like the Nazi intended with the Jews).

    Big difference between emegrating to countries and land of origin and significance. Cyprus was colonised by greeks in ancient times before alexander.
    A small minority only, as I explained, and as attested by DNA. Greeks are closer to Western Turks than to Cypriots.

    I think the use of Anatolia as the term would be better.
    All right, then to show my goodwill I have changed the Y-DNA table entry to "Turkey/Anatolia". I think it's just a matter of phrasing. What the Greeks call Constantinople is Istanbul to the Turks. Most cities in Asia Minor have both Greek and Turkish names. The Turks call Greece Yunanistan, the Greeks call it Ellada, while almost everybody else call it Greece, Grèce, Grecia, Griechenland or the like. Whether you call it Anatolia or Asia Minor or Turkey or something else, that's the place that matters, not the name.

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    Elias leave the retard,

    he believes that all Greece and makedonia was slavic before 1912,
    He believes that Greeks change language and not his father,

    he does not spoke about the greeks of Fyrom but about the few slavic of Makedonia,

    just leave him boil in his hate,


    Dejavu you live in sweden and push your stupidity to create wars where not exist,

    In sunday I was swimming with my friend toni from Skopje at Neoi Poroi beach and drunk a wine he brought, you know something, 99% of Fyrom knows the bullshit you are talking,

    Nothing is gona happen and Greece is more innocent than you and your party is,

    You speak about the Few Slavophones of Makedonia,
    But you do not speak about the 00 000 of Grecophones of Skopje,


    when you find what happened to them, then speak again,

    now back to your mud
    if your father change the Makedonian language and followed Dusan or Cimeon the rest did not,

    and you know something, nobody believes you even in your country,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That was the First World War, in which 16.5 million died. The Germans and Austrians killed 3.3 million Russians, 1.7 million French people and 1.2 million British subjects, and they in turn killed 2.5 million Germans and 1.5 million Austro-Hungarians, but nobody calls that a genocide. So why should it be different for the Greeks and Armenians ? Because they were less well equipped to fight back ? Because they were civilians ? Almost 7 million civilians died in WWI. That's war. Once again I reiterate my question to the Greeks on this forum that hold deep-rooted grudges and hatred against the Turks. Is that because of events that happened in WWI, before any of you, your parents and probably your grandparents were even born ?
    So genocide is fine during war time to you? I guess the holocaust against the jews is fine aswell, as it happened during war. I guess the hague should stop the trial of the bosnian serb who is accused of genocide against muslims slavs because serbia was at war at the time. You're stretching your rationality in trying to defend you position. The genocide that happened to the christian population of anatolia was terrible. Even christians employed in the trukish army was dismissed then killed. Hundreds of armenians were serving in the ottoman army were dismissed of duty and killed not because of allegiance but because turks were afraid of yet another supressed people demanding a country for themselves out of ottoman occupied land. The kurds are in the same boat now. Western europe turned a blind eye to the events that happened in this region, which was a mistake because they are still causing problems today, and will continue too, so Maciamo turn a blind eye again if it suits you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    There would be no European Union if people didn't learn to forgive and get over with their lives and start rebuilding new relationships learning from past mistakes, no mater how gruesome. Yet it is France and Germany, the two giant archenemy of erstwhile, that decided to cement peace for future generations through mutual friendship and cooperation. They set the example for the continent and the EU has been a success in fostering peace, respect and multiculturalism. The only people who haven't learned their lessons yet are the Greeks. I think this should be ground enough to expel Greece from the EU, until it has found a way to mend its relationship with Turkey. Until then both countries should be on a waiting list. The only reason that Greece was accepted so early in the EU was the prestige of its ancient history among Europeans. What I see here is that a lot of Greeks aren't mature enough for the EU, not more than countries like Serbia, that only seek to conflict with its neighbours.
    So you take the stance that it is greece's fault that ties with turkey are strained because turkey is still hostile to greece? and those turkish planes flying over greek island arn't really there, it's all our imagination? and threatens greece with war if greece demands its natural sea rights as stated in internation law? but it is greece's fault right?

    Greeks arn't immature people, we just don't like bullshit. We don't like this new imperialistic turkey as our neighbour, we don't like these slavs calling themselves macedonians just because yugoslavia fell apart, and are inventing a history for themselves in which greeks are the bad guys because greece and serbia beat bulgaria in the second balkan war. We don't like how greece has got into financial ruins because bankers and corrupt politicians became to greedy, and now the normal greek has to pay.

    Turkey has problems with all its neighbours but you place the blame on its neighbours and not it. Sorry I don't think you are being rational and are very biased. I also don't think your perception of modern turkey fits the reality of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    We were discussing the Istanbul pogrom. I quoted the figure of 15 people killed and you quoted me saying it was between 250,000 to 350,000. It's you who brought up the WWI casualties to illustrate the 1955 pogrom - two completely unrelated events in place and time. I probably misunderstood you because I don't use the word "genocide" for war casualties (unless there is a true, organised extermination programme, with specially designed camps, to completely eradicate a whole ethnic group from the face of the Earth, like the Nazi intended with the Jews).
    I brought them both up because it was you who said greeks should forget what happened 700 years ago when we don't even care about that anymore, it's about more recent events, and they are both recent events. You just choose to ignore one because it doesn't fit with your personal definition of genocide, one that goes against the international definition of genocide. And you also don't take into account the importance the greeks place in places like constantinople, and the turkish efforts to erase all history of it pre-1453.



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    A small minority only, as I explained, and as attested by DNA. Greeks are closer to Western Turks than to Cypriots.
    That's nice, they are still greeks, and have been for a very long time.



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    All right, then to show my goodwill I have changed the Y-DNA table entry to "Turkey/Anatolia". I think it's just a matter of phrasing. What the Greeks call Constantinople is Istanbul to the Turks. Most cities in Asia Minor have both Greek and Turkish names. The Turks call Greece Yunanistan, the Greeks call it Ellada, while almost everybody else call it Greece, Grèce, Grecia, Griechenland or the like. Whether you call it Anatolia or Asia Minor or Turkey or something else, that's the place that matters, not the name.
    And ionian greeks come from Ionia, not turkey. Ionian greeks never lived in a land called "turkey", which is why you should label it as anatolia. This is your website so you can do whatever you want with it.

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    Ok Maciamo, here is an example of what the greeks are negotiating with. This picture represents what ankara would like to see as a solution to this agean dispute;

    aegean-map.jpg

    They want the sea and air boundaries to be as follows, totaly ignoring the fact that greek islands lay just off the coast of turkey, and thus putting them under turkish sovereignty. So I ask you again, maybe you should learn more about the disputes between Greece and Turkey before you say such things like "kick the greeks out of the EU untill they learn to deal with Turkey", because that would require what I just showed you.

    Again, greeks don't like bullshit, and Turkey under the leadership of AKP thinks itself as a superpower that doesnt' need to follow international law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    Elias leave the retard,

    he believes that all Greece and makedonia was slavic before 1912,
    He believes that Greeks change language and not his father,

    he does not spoke about the greeks of Fyrom but about the few slavic of Makedonia,

    just leave him boil in his hate,


    Dejavu you live in sweden and push your stupidity to create wars where not exist,

    In sunday I was swimming with my friend toni from Skopje at Neoi Poroi beach and drunk a wine he brought, you know something, 99% of Fyrom knows the bullshit you are talking,

    Nothing is gona happen and Greece is more innocent than you and your party is,

    You speak about the Few Slavophones of Makedonia,
    But you do not speak about the 00 000 of Grecophones of Skopje,


    when you find what happened to them, then speak again,

    now back to your mud
    if your father change the Makedonian language and followed Dusan or Cimeon the rest did not,

    and you know something, nobody believes you even in your country,
    I don't know wheather I should have negative feelings towards peopel like Dejavu or sympathy. They have been at the crossroads of bulgaria, serb, and greek nationalism. First they were leaning towards being Bulgarian, then they came under the conrol of serbia, and serbia tried to serbify them, then under communisn Tito "macedonianized" them, so they never had any time to sit back and reflect. Now they took Tito's idea to the extreme and say they are decendant from ancient macedons and greeks are criminals, so natually I feel defensive. If we just accept and say they are macedonians we would be lying to ourselves and ignoring history, not to mention starting up new territorial disputes where there need not be.

    I think the best solution would be negotiated half way and come to the solution of a slav-macedonian identity, with a country name reflecting that. Ironicaly, Former Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia does that job as a country name.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    I don't know wheather I should have negative feelings towards peopel like Dejavu or sympathy. They have been at the crossroads of bulgaria, serb, and greek nationalism. First they were leaning towards being Bulgarian, then they came under the conrol of serbia, and serbia tried to serbify them, then under communisn Tito "macedonianized" them, so they never had any time to sit back and reflect. Now they took Tito's idea to the extreme and say they are decendant from ancient macedons and greeks are criminals, so natually I feel defensive. If we just accept and say they are macedonians we would be lying to ourselves and ignoring history, not to mention starting up new territorial disputes where there need not be.

    I think the best solution would be negotiated half way and come to the solution of a slav-macedonian identity, with a country name reflecting that. Ironicaly, Former Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia does that job as a country name.

    I might agree some Slavic populations lived besides makedonians, they might have that name but not with the bullshit they claim,
    a slavo-makedonia as name is correct and sends each stupid back to where belong,
    besides Slavic-Makedonia is a name accepted by all, exept Fyromians,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    Ok Maciamo, here is an example of what the greeks are negotiating with. This picture represents what ankara would like to see as a solution to this agean dispute;

    aegean-map.jpg

    They want the sea and air boundaries to be as follows, totaly ignoring the fact that greek islands lay just off the coast of turkey, and thus putting them under turkish sovereignty. So I ask you again, maybe you should learn more about the disputes between Greece and Turkey before you say such things like "kick the greeks out of the EU untill they learn to deal with Turkey", because that would require what I just showed you.

    Again, greeks don't like bullshit, and Turkey under the leadership of AKP thinks itself as a superpower that doesnt' need to follow international law.
    Thanks for illustrating my point. If Greece hadn't vetoed Turkey's EU membership for so long, Turkey would probably be in the EU and such territorial issues wouldn't exist. I am not saying it is only Greece's fault, but both Greece's and Turkey's. That's why I said that both should have solved their conflict before being admitted in the EU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    So genocide is fine during war time to you? I guess the holocaust against the jews is fine aswell, as it happened during war. I guess the hague should stop the trial of the bosnian serb who is accused of genocide against muslims slavs because serbia was at war at the time. You're stretching your rationality in trying to defend you position. The genocide that happened to the christian population of anatolia was terrible. Even christians employed in the trukish army was dismissed then killed. Hundreds of armenians were serving in the ottoman army were dismissed of duty and killed not because of allegiance but because turks were afraid of yet another supressed people demanding a country for themselves out of ottoman occupied land. The kurds are in the same boat now. Western europe turned a blind eye to the events that happened in this region, which was a mistake because they are still causing problems today, and will continue too, so Maciamo turn a blind eye again if it suits you.
    I don't care what you think is the definition of genocide. Logic dictates that if killing lots of civilians in Turkey is a genocide, then killing lots of civilians in Russia or Italy or France is a genocide too. But you will not find a single reference to genocide in Russia or Italy during WWI, even though 3 million Russian civilians and 600,000 Italian civilians died. Why ? I think the answer is simply that both Armenians and Greeks like to call the events a genocide to get back at Turkey. They intentionally liken themselves to the Jews to draw international attention and to make other people feel more sorry for them than for WWI victims in other countries. I think it is selfish, childish and manipulative. Big massacres have happened all the time throughout history and yet there are only a handful of officially recognised genocides. Interestingly the Greeks and Armenians only started to use the term 'genocide' after WWII, not right after WWI.

    For me the definition of genocide is very simple. If one ethnic group wants to eradicate an entire other ethnic group from the earth (and not just kill or expel those who live in their country), then it is a genocide (even if they don't succeed). As far as I know, only the Nazi and the Tutsi of Rwanda-Burundi ever intended genocide in modern times.

    The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible massacres too, that killed over 200,000 people in just a few minutes. But nobody calls them genocide, even in Japan.

    Different words have different meanings or nuances. A genocide is a kind of massacre, but not all massacres are genocides. The use of the word 'genocide' only became widespread after the Jewish Holocaust. Another common use is the killing of some plant or animal species until extinction. We could say that the gorillas or the rhinoceroses of Africa, or the tigers in Asia have undergone a quasi-genocide from human beings. Greeks and Armenians haven't. As sad and tragic as the death of 300,000 people is, they barely represent 1% of all the people with dominant Greek ancestry in the world (taking South Italians into account). It really cannot be likened to the scale of the Jewish genocide, in which two-thirds of European Jews perished, i.e. roughly 50% of the global Jewish population. I hope you understand the difference of amplitude.

    I am also completely opposed to the use of the term 'genocide' for what happened in Bosnia in 1992-5. Only 8,000 people died, a fraction of the global annual deaths directly caused by the tobacco industry, and about 1/1000 of the scale of the Jewish genocide. Unfortunately it has become increasingly fashionable to label any massacre as genocide by unscrupulous sensationalist media and politicians. But that's hardly a reference to follow.

    So you take the stance that it is greece's fault that ties with turkey are strained because turkey is still hostile to greece? and those turkish planes flying over greek island arn't really there, it's all our imagination? and threatens greece with war if greece demands its natural sea rights as stated in internation law? but it is greece's fault right?
    ...
    Turkey has problems with all its neighbours but you place the blame on its neighbours and not it. Sorry I don't think you are being rational and are very biased. I also don't think your perception of modern turkey fits the reality of it.
    If Turkey ever attacks Greece, it will jeopardise its chances of ever being admitted to the EU, and will suffer EU retaliations. Whatever you think, the Turks aren't crazy. They know that it is not in their best interest to act on their provocations. Nevertheless they won't make progress in their accession talks until they settle matters with the Greeks and Kurds. I am neither pro-Greek nor pro-Turk, nor am I anti-Greek or anti-Turk. If you think that I am pro-Turk, then you should know that I am strongly in favour of the Kurdish independence. And if that makes me look pro-Kurdish, I actually never want to see them in the EU (contrarily to the Turks). Actually I believe that Turkey must let Kurdistan go if it wants to join the EU. Cyprus is really too complicated. It's an impasse like Jerusalem or Brussels.

    Greeks arn't immature people, we just don't like bullshit. We don't like this new imperialistic turkey as our neighbour, we don't like these slavs calling themselves macedonians just because yugoslavia fell apart, and are inventing a history for themselves in which greeks are the bad guys because greece and serbia beat bulgaria in the second balkan war. We don't like how greece has got into financial ruins because bankers and corrupt politicians became to greedy, and now the normal greek has to pay.
    It's amazing though that Greece is the only EU country with so many problems with its neighbours. What's the point arguing with your northern neighbours about their country's name (Macedonia) when it is the actual historical name of the region, and that nobody outside Greece call your country the way you do (Ellada) ? I think that people have the right to choose their country's name freely. What if they had chosen North Greece, the way there is North and South Korea, or that there is Sudan and South Sudan now ?

    As for Greece's current financial troubles, it is almost only due to the twisting of figures and artificial boosting of the economy to join the Eurozone. It is Goldman Sachs that helped Greece mask its true debt back in 2002 (orther sources : The Independent and NY Times).
    Last edited by Maciamo; 26-07-11 at 10:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for illustrating my point. If Greece hadn't vetoed Turkey's EU membership for so long, Turkey would probably be in the EU and such territorial issues wouldn't exist. I am not saying it is only Greece's fault, but both Greece's and Turkey's. That's why I said that both should have solved their conflict before being admitted in the EU.
    "vetoed Turkey's EU membership"???
    In case you haven't heard, Greece has been a strong supporter of Turkey's EU membership for the last 20 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Thanks for illustrating my point. If Greece hadn't vetoed Turkey's EU membership for so long, Turkey would probably be in the EU and such territorial issues wouldn't exist. I am not saying it is only Greece's fault, but both Greece's and Turkey's. That's why I said that both should have solved their conflict before being admitted in the EU.

    Macciamo what are you talking about?

    GREECE IS NOT VETOING TURKEY,
    GREECE IS ASKING FOR INTERNATIONAL LAWS TO BE AMONG 2 COUNTRIES

    TURKEY HAS 2 FOR GREECE and 1 for Cyprus
    Turkey attacked Greek Lands of Imia Kardak at 1990s

    and still is not vetoing,
    ARE WE NUTS?
    how you make an alliance when he has 2 casus Beli on you?
    do you know that Greek fisherman are in terror of Turkish naval,
    do you know how many warm days happened in Samothrake,
    when Turkish warships enter the 12 miles zone and hunt Greek fishermans
    are we nuts?

    besides when do you see that Greece vote Veto for Turkey?

    IN FACT BEFORE FEW DAYS THE EUROPEAN Committee FOR HANDLING CRISIS ASK TURKEY TO RECOGNISE 12 MILES ZONE OF GREEK COASTS

    are we nuts,
    I hear it first time by you that greek vote Veto
    in fact it was 1 time austria and 1 time france and finland who veto
    Greece ask
    1 open the Chalke theological school
    2 recon autonomy of the patriarch the fanari block as in vatican
    3 recon the 12 miles zone of international sea rights
    4 stop the military airflights above aegean all year except november february and march for both sides so to avoid warm days and turists travell with no fear all summer,
    5 stop the military naval practise from months april to octomber so yachts travell free
    6 All differences must be handle under international laws

    19/7/2011
    Ergogan words

    WE WILL NOT NEGOTIATE WITH A COUNTRY WE DON'T RECOGNISE
    said Erdogan to cyprus
    are we Nuts they don't recogn Cyprus a member of EU and they want to enter Eu


    20/07/2011
    'We will not speak for 6 months with the EU as long as President is Cyprus,
    we consider it a big shame to sit at same table with a country we don't recognize,
    (cyprus a pirate or a terrorist state? a country member of EU? is not recognized?)
    speech at occupied cyprus lands

    how can this be done when a Cyprus Merchant ship if pass 12 miles may be sunk by Turkish Naval forces, what of europe will be?

    is the Eu you Dream?
    to have 3 countries with no International laws among them
    how they enter EU when they say that every ship with cyprus flag is a pirate ship and will be sunk if reach the coasts of turkey

    and besides all These Cyprus did not ask Veto
    but ask International laws to be executed,
    DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT MEANS I DO NOT RECON THE CYPRUS DEMOCRACY
    IN CASE OF VOTE IN A EU COUNCIL WHAT THEY SAY?
    THAT CYPRUS VOTE DOES NOT COUNT?

    the case is as they told you
    the illegal is not Greece or Cyprus
    Both did not put Veto,
    the ask International laws and lift of Casus Beli to both

    It is another story the I don't like Greeks and another to say incorrect informations that someone heard in a cafe, or in a tavern,

    Remember Bartholomaios is the Last Patriarcha Oikoumenica
    cause he is from the last class that finished chalke patriarchical school
    after him if chalke do not open the next patrircha oikoymenica will be as order wants it

    it is like having a pope that was not followed the order to become a pope

    although I am not cristian and I still find it silly the case of popes and patriarches
    majority of people thinks different,


    but Greece vote Veto first time I hear it,

    on the other hand I know that Austrian Veto lifted after Greek pressure for supporting Turkey to join EU
    this are bullshit propagandas for inner consumption to turkey to keep on the hate,

    about the Greek economical crisis the Goldmans Sachs case, that is drop that made glass overwhelmed, and you very well mention about it,
    in fact I believe that Eu should hang the ones behind,
    there are many more reasons, and the solutions that Eu and IMF gave are not the best,
    they sunk deeper Greek economy for 2 years to a selected default, just to save euro, instead of save greece,
    but when time comes who will send to USA the IMF, it is almost at the same class with Portugal and Ireland, at >85% analogy of Greek depth,
    the game is that some money voltures want to gain by changing the balance of dollar and EU,
    if you watch market then check gold and swiss currency to understand,

    the point is that All european countries knew about it from 2004 but did not say a word why?


    And offcourse Makedonia case
    hm well think that someone today calls that Belgians are in Alps and Belgians are Belgians but Irish or whatever, how will you act?

    the term Makedonia as Ethnicity and History and Blood has nothing to with Skopje-Fyrom etc,
    the romas as they did in Illyricum they also did in Greece split Greece to 2 parts Achaia and Makedonia, and added in Makedonia Paeonia,
    that is a geographical term, not an ethnicity term,
    besides it is not The Makedonia that asks land from Fyrom, but the Fyrom ask Lands from Greece,
    It is not a Name, it is an ID, except if you believe that ancient Makedonians were Slavic people, which is at least ......
    Last edited by iapetoc; 26-07-11 at 20:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    For me the definition of genocide is very simple. If one ethnic group wants to eradicate an entire other ethnic group from the earth (and not just kill or expel those who live in their country), then it is a genocide (even if they don't succeed). As far as I know, only the Nazi and the Tutsi of Rwanda-Burundi ever intended genocide in modern times.
    That's yoru definition, this is mine, and is the same are the recognised definition;

    "Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group",[1] though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.[2"

    Pontians - racial group, Christians - religions, group 300,000 dead
    Armenians - racial group, Christians - religion, 1.5 million dead

    Both groups where not participating in the conflicts at the time, the ottomans just wanted them exterminated because they were afraid of more countries breaking away very soon because they were going to lose ww1, just like how they are afraid of kurdistan breaking away today, which I fully support.



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's amazing though that Greece is the only EU country with so many problems with its neighbours. What's the point arguing with your northern neighbours about their country's name (Macedonia) when it is the actual historical name of the region, and that nobody outside Greece call your country the way you do (Ellada) ? I think that people have the right to choose their country's name freely. What if they had chosen North Greece, the way there is North and South Korea, or that there is Sudan and South Sudan now ?
    Greece has problems with two neighbours, FYROM and Turkey. FYROM solution is easy, they just don't want to compromise, Turkey is another story, they think they are a superpower. Both situations E.U. has agreed greece is in the right, and supports greece in both issues. Balkans is not like western europe if you havn't noticed. America has supported greece in the name issue as well, a 360 degree change from recognizing them when they first seperated form yugoslavia, now hilary clinton on her visit to athens says they want to see a mutually acceptable name, somethign FYROM dislikes because they actually beleive they are ancient macedons.

    Oh and to correct you, that region of FYROM was never in the kingdom of macedon proper, it was called Paeonia, so no it's not historical macedonia, let alone filled with ancient macedons. It was conqured by macedon, but so was the entire middle east, so afghanistan was the same right to called themselves Macedonia as Skopje does. But just saying this ignores the 2000 year history of that region to the present.
    Skopia recently just constructed a multi-million dollar statue of alexander, which caused them to reseive backlash from Brussels. And no they would not have chosen the name northern greece beacuse they are not greeks, they are slavs, so it would not had made sence, just like how calling themselves ancient macedonians doesn't make sence.

    And another thing, greece never vetoed Turkish memebrship to EU, so try again at your reasons why they want the maritime and air boarders like that. I'll give you a hint, imperialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    That's yoru definition, this is mine, and is the same are the recognised definition;

    "Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group",[1] though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.[2"

    Pontians - racial group, Christians - religions, group 300,000 dead
    Armenians - racial group, Christians - religion, 1.5 million dead
    And don't forget:
    Assyrians - racial group, Christians - religion, about 500,000 dead

    Those are the three committed by the Ottomans during World War I as recognized by the IAGS, which is generally quite well-respected. Certainly, the above definition and the understanding adopted by the IAGS are more in-line with what we think of as genocide. Maciamo's is more restrictive than the common usage of the term, but may highlight a particular type of genocide (one motivated by the hope of total eradication rather than simple eradication from a particular area--the only major difference in practice being that sometimes the second is combined with deportation).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What's the point arguing with your northern neighbours about their country's name (Macedonia) when it is the actual historical name of the region, and that nobody outside Greece call your country the way you do (Ellada) ? I think that people have the right to choose their country's name.
    Greece is actually officially named the Hellenic Republic or Elliniki Dimokratia and Ellatha (Ellada) is only the genetive case for the word Hellas. Hellas is, of course, the ancient or traditional name for the lands inhabited by the Hellenes. But as you say, people do have the right to choose their country's name.

    As interesting as this discussion has been and as much as I am learning it has become out of hand and way off topic. Far too much sensitivity being displayed by some and, unfortunately, it is starting to resemble the Spanish topics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigone View Post
    Greece is actually officially named the Hellenic Republic or Elliniki Dimokratia and Ellatha (Ellada) is only the genetive case for the word Hellas. Hellas is, of course, the ancient or traditional name for the lands inhabited by the Hellenes. But as you say, people do have the right to choose their country's name.

    As interesting as this discussion has been and as much as I am learning it has become out of hand and way off topic. Far too much sensitivity being displayed by some and, unfortunately, it is starting to resemble the Spanish topics.
    Yes, before I joined Eupedia I wasn't aware of the fact how sensitive such topics about nationality and ethnicity still are in today's Europe. It is ridiculous because people can only be judged by their very own actions in life and how they personally cope with their environment. Yet, many people still define themselves with other groups of people, perceiving insults where there are none, living prejudices and accusations as they are passed on from one person to the next. Intelligence and character traits may be inherited. But good breeding, manners, values and respect for other people are not!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Yes, before I joined Eupedia I wasn't aware of the fact how sensitive such topics about nationality and ethnicity still are in today's Europe. It is ridiculous because people can only be judged by their very own actions in life and how they personally cope with their environment. Yet, many people still define themselves with other groups of people, perceiving insults where there are none, living prejudices and accusations as they are passed on from one person to the next. Intelligence and character traits may be inherited. But good breeding, manners, values and respect for other people are not!
    you may a right, and thanks for try to calm down, the case has to do with propagandas and war attempts, and claim lands,

    ww2 was not the last in Europe,

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