Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

Hi can you elaborate more on Limaj...I don't understand what you mean. (He is my father in law from Vranisht, Laberia.if you got the results on 23 and me.)


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I think he means that he deviates from the common pattern of Albanian clustering, he is very southwest which is not common for a Balkanite i suppose.
 
One has to ask himself why Greeks and Albanians have such an animosity between each other, especially Tosk Albanians who are practically Greeks.

It is important for Byzantium to return, at least in these two countries.
 
Hi can you elaborate more on Limaj...I don't understand what you mean. (He is my father in law from Vranisht, Laberia.if you got the results on 23 and me.)


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Hi Blevins. He gravitates away from us there but as I mentioned it's an amateur map based on gedmatch.com Eurogenes V2 K15 calculator, also where I got his results, so shouldn't be taken seriously. On a real PCA he probably would be just a tad west of us, maybe right with Tuscans, based on his components - elevated west med. That could mean he has more farmer like ancestry than your average Albanian, which doesn't make sense honesty because one would think we're thoroughly mixed by now lol.

Can't remember who created it but I have noticed discrepancies between selecting North Sea/Atlantic, Easter Euro/Baltic and West Med/East Med & Red Sea/West Asian to an extent in this calculator. Basically some Albanians score more of one of them than the other and vice versa - this just goes to show that they shouldn't be taken literally. They are fun to play around with however :)

Tosks are in Grey
2chnwh2.jpg


Also the ethnic compositions at 23andme, Ancestrydna, Living DNA, Family Tree DNA etc are basically designed and put together in similar fashion, and shouldn't be taken seriously either lmao - such autosomal tests are useful however to find close relatives but that's about it. Europeans are thoroughly mixed so it's impossible to generate clusters that would identify one ethnicity or a linguistic group alone autosomally.
 
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Hi Blevins. He gravitates away from us there but as I mentioned it's an amateur map based on gedmatch.com Eurogenes V2 K15 calculator, also where I got his results, so shouldn't be taken seriously. On a real PCA he probably would be just a tad west of us, maybe right with Tuscans, based on his components - elevated west med. That could mean he has more farmer like ancestry than your average Albanian, which doesn't make sense honesty because one would think were are thoroughly mixed by now lol.

Can't remember who created it but I have noticed discrepancies between selecting North Sea/Atlantic, Easter Euro/Baltic and West Med/East Med & Red Sea/West Asian to an extent in this calculator. Basically some Albanians score more of one of them than the other and vice versa - this just goes to show that they shouldn't be taken literally. They are fun to play around with however :)

Tosks are in Grey
2chnwh2.jpg


Also the ethnic compositions at 23andme, Ancestrydna, Living DNA, Family Tree DNA etc are basically designed and put together in similar fashion, and shouldn't be taken seriously either lmao - they are usuefull however to find close relatives but that's about it. Europeans are thoroughly mixed so it's impossible to generate clusters that would identify one ethnicity or a linguistic group alone autosomally.

Thoroughly agree. Fun to play around with, but calculators based on modern European clusters should never be confused with actual analysis. It can provide interesting clues, however.
 
Hi Blevins. He gravitates away from us there but as I mentioned it's an amateur map based on gedmatch.com Eurogenes V2 K15 calculator, also where I got his results, so shouldn't be taken seriously. On a real PCA he probably would be just a tad west of us, maybe right with Tuscans, based on his components - elevated west med. That could mean he has more farmer like ancestry than your average Albanian, which doesn't make sense honesty because one would think were are thoroughly mixed by now lol.

Can't remember who created it but I have noticed discrepancies between selecting North Sea/Atlantic, Easter Euro/Baltic and West Med/East Med & Red Sea/West Asian to an extent in this calculator. Basically some Albanians score more of one of them than the other and vice versa - this just goes to show that they shouldn't be taken literally. They are fun to play around with however :)

Tosks are in Grey
2chnwh2.jpg


Also the ethnic compositions at 23andme, Ancestrydna, Living DNA, Family Tree DNA etc are basically designed and put together in similar fashion, and shouldn't be taken seriously either lmao - they are usuefull however to find close relatives but that's about it. Europeans are thoroughly mixed so it's impossible to generate clusters that would identify one ethnicity or a linguistic group alone autosomally.

Thanks Leka for your insight. I really appreciate it.


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Thanks Leka for your insight. I really appreciate it.


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No problem bro. Ps he is V13 if I am not mistaken? Test him at Family Tree DNA, at least 37 markers. We really could use more Tosk samples :)
 
To reiterate so my point is more clear and all members here understand, I will use as an example one of the halpogroups you mentioned: V13 for example expanded/diversified during bronze age, two of its most successful branches, E-Z5017 and E-Z5018, formed about 4000 years ago. Hypothetically speaking, since you haven't analyse the data in detail, Tosks and Ghegs samples could all be under E-Z5017 while Greeks under Z-Z5018. You understand now how irrelevant your percentages are, right?

Just because they have less of it doesn't make them closer to Greeks or any other population for that matter.

I do realize that hypothetically this could be the case. Although, this is speculation either way. It may actually not be that case at all. Would be delighted to see more data on this.

That said, it doesn't change the fact that Tosks and Gheghs do differ. Even though they do inhabit a relatively small area. This is what the authors of the article I posted conluded. And I never said that Tosks were Greeks. I never went toward that direction. I said they were genetically indistinguishable from mainland Greeks, which is something else. And I argued that this is mostly due to pre-historic gene flows. Ofcourse, absent data, we can only speculate. Feel free to do so. But personally, I haven't seen any data which refutes my initial claim.
 
Your claim was erroneous based on nothing basically, simple as that. As mentioned before, differences can be found even among Ghegs from region to region if one really digs deep into it, however, generally speaking they are not great.

Small area, are you kidding me? Do you actually know how inaccessible most of Albanian is, and how distant was Kosova from Laberia in the past? Even today with the modern motorways one needs to travel all day non stop to reach such distances. Yet, me a Kosovar with origin from north Albania and Belvins here who is a Lab are related, we both are R1b-CTS9219>BY611. You obviously are clueless and bit more than you could chew - better don't get involved at all.
 
I think you might be ignoring some evidence here. On an overall basis, Tosks and Gheghs do show differences. There is no point trying to ignore the obvious.
 
I think you might be ignoring some evidence here. On an overall basis, Tosks and Gheghs do show differences. There is no point trying to ignore the obvious.

.....as for differences between Tosks and Gegs, differences will have to do more with geographical accessibility. North Albanians alps are unaccessible, so more Bulgar and Slavic input in Tosk area. North Greece has also the input of Greek moved from Turkey that are different from south Albanians.....anyway, time will solve this issue as more dna test coming....but I am sure that the answer will be disappointing like many other lies about Albanians forged in Athens.


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Ed. by moderator.
An insult toward Greeks was removed. I'm going to give you one warning. Do not personalize these discussions in a way that insults another ethnicity or you'll start getting infraction points, and we know how that ends.

You people are going to start according Maciamo's site the respect you give places like anthrogenica, and not treat it like it's some site like theapricity or the like.

We'd better be clear, people. No whining here either, save that for other sites as well...follow the rules
 
If someone wants to argue there's a big difference between Ghegs and Tosks, great...I couldn't care less whether that's the case or not. However, present hard genetic evidence, i.e. autosomal dna results, not unsubstantiated speculation.
 
No problem bro. Ps he is V13 if I am not mistaken? Test him at Family Tree DNA, at least 37 markers. We really could use more Tosk samples :)

Yes he is indeed V13.... I am will test him. But differences will show up since toskeria and laberia are not the same....Laberia is mountainous region while toskeria is more accessible and urbanized.


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The Italian study of Bologna University "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily" shows that tosks and ghegs differ in autosomal DNA as well as in the y dna with the tosks being more european like and ghegs more eef like even if they are geographically to the north.(take a look in the supplementary figures)This means that ghegs are less influenced by their neighboring peoples because of their isolation.And as far as i know they also differ linguistically and phenotypically.One of the factors that contributed to their differentiation is the mixing with Greeks, as the ancient Greek colonies, geography and the presence of a Greek minority suggest.So it is not a question of if but rather of how much they were influenced by the Greeks.
BUT WHAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS HOW YOU TURNED ONCE MORE THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT GREEK REGIONAL Y DNA GROUPS IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE ALBANIANS.
 
The Italian study of Bologna University "Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily" shows that tosks and ghegs differ in autosomal DNA as well as in the y dna with the tosks being more european like and ghegs more eef like even if they are geographically to the north.(take a look in the supplementary figures)This means that ghegs are less influenced by their neighboring peoples because of their isolation.And as far as i know they also differ linguistically and phenotypically.One of the factors that contributed to their differentiation is the mixing with Greeks, as the ancient Greek colonies, geography and the presence of a Greek minority suggest.So it is not a question of if but rather of how much they were influenced by the Greeks.
BUT WHAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS HOW YOU TURNED ONCE MORE THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT GREEK REGIONAL Y DNA GROUPS IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE ALBANIANS.

Differences are minor! Tosks have more I1 and I2 as a result of three occupations: Goths, Slavs, Turks. All occupations are documented. Goths were present In Epiris Vetus for 200 years. Slavs for 120 years.Turks 500 years. All have left their marks. I1+I2 in Tosks is over 20%. I would say 25 % of Tosk genes could be from these occupations. Is my educated guess nothing scientific. Gegs on the other side live in a very rugged environment, with limited arable land, no access roads so they were more pastoral. So Geghs are the real Illyrians, preserved. But ethnicity is not genes. If it was genes Germany would be made of many ethnicity's, Italy should have had at least 5 ethnicity's etc.. As for comparing Greeks and Tosks genetically has no point. Greek genomes are largely artificial and do not reflect continuity. 1.5 million Greeks from Turkey, large Albanian, Vlahs, Slavs, Turkish, Jewish, Venetians make any talk about Greek DNA a crude joke.
 
Gegs on the other side live in a very rugged environment, with limited arable land, no access roads so they were more pastoral. So Geghs are the real Illyrians, preserved.


I think that when mentioning Geghs people need to start differentiating between Kosovo Geghs and highlander Gegs if they want to talk about "rugged" or "inaccessible." Kosovo is known for its flat fertile plains (as the map below shows). So lets not speculate without any concrete indications.

View attachment 8985 View attachment 8986View attachment 8987
 
Please, always this false story.

As for comparing Greeks and Tosks genetically has no point. Greek genomes are largely artificial and do not reflect continuity. 1.5 million Greeks from Turkey, large Albanian, Vlahs, Slavs, Turkish, Jewish, Venetians make any talk about Greek DNA a crude joke.
 
BUT WHAT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS HOW YOU TURNED ONCE MORE THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT GREEK REGIONAL Y DNA GROUPS IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE ALBANIANS.

I think I might be responsible for that. I argued that genetic similarity between Greeks from the mainland and Albanians is not simply the result of medieval migrations, but rather of older ones. Sure the Greek presence in South Albania may play a factor, but don't forget that many migrations into Greece since the Bronze Age started off from what is today Albania. Though the article you posted seems to refute that somewhat and argues that Albanians and mainland Greeks are more Northern shifted due to medieval (Slavic) migrations. Though I know of a study which claimed that during the late Bronze Age the Balkans received a wave of people which made the first break between the genetic continuum from Southern Italy to Cyprus. I will try to find and post this study here on this forum. Pretty sure someone must have posted it already somewhere.

As for the Tosks and Gheghs. Some people feel provoked when I argue that they differ somewhat. Surely, whatever the case, it doesn't make any of the two less Albanian. I argue for variety within Greek subgroups as well. So I don't see the problem here. We are just trying to find out the truth. I happen to remember some anthropologists who did some research on the matter. Carlton Coon for example considers the Gheghs to be an exclusive group of their own, and says that the Tosks by and large have different phenotypes which are similar to the Greeks from Epirus who as it happens resemble the Southern French. He argued that the internal mobility through the ages, including new settlers such as Slavs, did not break the regional variation from ancient times. So, in his view, Tosks are not simply Gheghs with some more Slavic admixture. They are considerably different. Although he did mention some Ghegh dinaric elements can be found in Tosks as well. We shall see what genetics will tell us in the years to come.
 
Differences are minor! Tosks have more I1 and I2 as a result of three occupations: Goths, Slavs, Turks. All occupations are documented. Goths were present In Epiris Vetus for 200 years. Slavs for 120 years.Turks 500 years. All have left their marks. I1+I2 in Tosks is over 20%. I would say 25 % of Tosk genes could be from these occupations. Is my educated guess nothing scientific. Gegs on the other side live in a very rugged environment, with limited arable land, no access roads so they were more pastoral. So Geghs are the real Illyrians, preserved. But ethnicity is not genes. If it was genes Germany would be made of many ethnicity's, Italy should have had at least 5 ethnicity's etc.. As for comparing Greeks and Tosks genetically has no point. Greek genomes are largely artificial and do not reflect continuity. 1.5 million Greeks from Turkey, large Albanian, Vlahs, Slavs, Turkish, Jewish, Venetians make any talk about Greek DNA a crude joke.
You guys never answer what has been told to you but instead try to put some new argument to the table n the hope to skip the previus argument.
Reguardng the argumen that greek dna is a crude joke i will remind you of the study"Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks"by the university of washington.
But tell me what of the follwing do you disagree
1.ancient greeks did colonize s.albania
2.byzantine presence in your region was longer of all gothic slavic and turkish presence combined.
3.Even today there is a greek minority in s.albania recognized by the albanian state
so how can you argue that tosks are not influenced by the greeks at all?
 
Gentlemen, the topic is regional differences in y dna in Greece. We have wondered off topic. Let's get back to it.
 
Albania needs to understand that Greece is not an enemy, but rather a valuable ally.
 

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