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Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

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    Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

    Northern Greeks (Thrace & Macedonia) (296 samples)
    I : 21.6
    R1a : 18.2
    R1b : 13.2
    E1b : 20.6
    G2 : 4.7
    J2 : 14.9
    J1 : 3.4
    LT : 2.7
    * : 0.7


    Central Greeks (Epirus & Thessaly) (127 samples)
    I : 12.6
    R1a : 11.8
    R1b : 10.2
    E1b : 31.5
    G2 : 6.3
    J2 : 18.1
    J1 : 3.9
    LT : 3.9
    * : 1.6


    Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) (264 samples)
    I : 12.9
    R1a : 10.2
    R1b : 20.5
    E1b : 25.8
    G2 : 3.4
    J2 : 19.7
    J1 : 2.3
    LT : 3.8
    * : 1.5


    Eastern Greeks (Aegean islands & Ionia) (158 samples)
    I : 11.4
    R1a : 7.6
    R1b : 22.8
    E1b : 20.3
    G2 : 8.2
    J2 : 19.6
    J1 : 5.1
    LT : 3.2
    * : 1.9

    Cretan Greeks (Crete) (193 samples)
    I : 13.0
    R1a : 8.8
    R1b : 17.1
    E1b : 8.8
    G2 : 10.9
    J2 : 30.6
    J1 : 8.3
    LT : 2.6
    *: -


    All Greeks (1038 samples)
    I : 15.1
    R1a : 12.0
    R1b : 16.9
    E1b : 21.0
    G2 : 6.3
    J2 : 20.1
    J1 : 4.3
    LT : 3.2
    *: 1.1

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    Can you please provide reference (source) for this data?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shetop View Post
    Can you please provide reference (source) for this data?
    Sure
    1.The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A
    Y Chromosome Perspective (Semino et.al) 2000
    2.Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns (Bosch et.al) 2005
    3.Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of agriculture in southeast Europe (Battaglia et.al) 2008
    4.Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan (Firasat et.al) 2007
    5.Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects (Di Giaccomo et.al) 2003
    6.The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean (King et.al) 2011
    7. Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic (King et.al) 2008

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    An important note regarding Greek Haplogroup I is that the Haplogroup I on Crete is of a different subclade than in the rest of Greece (I2*-B like Armenia instead of I2a-Din like the Balkans). Per King et al, as archaiocapilos cited. Both are probably relatively recent introductions to their areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    An important note regarding Greek Haplogroup I is that the Haplogroup I on Crete is of a different subclade than in the rest of Greece (I2*-B like Armenia instead of I2a-Din like the Balkans). Per King et al, as archaiocapilos cited. Both are probably relatively recent introductions to their areas.
    Haplogroup I2*-B arrived in Crete propably from Pontus-Armenia after Nikephoros Fokas liberated Cretans from Islamic/Arabic rule (around 10th cent. CE)...He encouraged Christian Anatolians to emigrate in Crete in order to strengthen Christianity because a large portion of the population had become Islamicized

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    Haplogroup I2*-B arrived in Crete propably from Pontus-Armenia after Nikephoros Fokas liberated Cretans from Islamic/Arabic rule (around 10th cent. CE)...He encouraged Christian Anatolians to emigrate in Crete in order to strengthen Christianity because a large portion of the population had become Islamicized
    The concentration of Haplogroup I in Crete is a decent amount higher than Armenia, do you suspect a founder effect? I had assumed that the migration had happened a bit earlier and the other way around or from a common source to the northwest, since the center of diversity of I2* as a whole is around Germany (and all extant I2* is more closely related to other I2* than it is to I2a or I2b). Although that still wouldn't put the oldest I2*-B in Crete older than 3000 years or so at most, probably less.

    I2a-Din in Greece must be similarly young. I'm guessing that if any Haplogroup I is as old as the G2/J2?/E1b? there that came during the Neolithic, it's what little trace I2a1a is there. That makes Greece very non-Paleolithic on its Y-lines, with a lot of Neolithic and Bronze Age (and Iron Age? and Modern?) input. I don't see a lot of interesting geographic patterns other than variations on that theme.

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    can someone told the Agrinio area what I Y-dna is ?
    Area Aetolo-acarnania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    can someone told the Agrinio area what I Y-dna is ?
    Area Aetolo-acarnania.
    I guess that it is I2a1b-Din with some I1 or I2a2

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    I guess that it is I2a1b-Din with some I1 or I2a2
    quess accepted But I like search result if exist, its ok,

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapetoc View Post
    quess accepted But I like search result if exist, its ok,
    That paper only typed I-M170 so we can only speculate on the fact that Greek Y-DNA (I-M170) is (739 samples):
    I1 : 3.7
    I2a1b-Din : 9.1
    I2*-B : 1.4
    I2a2 : 1.6

    Haplogroup J2 is (880 samples)
    J2a : 12.2
    J2b : 5.7

    Haplogroup E1b1b is (440 samples)
    E1b1b1a2 -V13 : 16.4
    E1b1b1a*-M78 : 2.3
    E1b1b1b -M81 : 0.5
    E1b1b1c-M123 : 2.0

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    That paper only typed I-M170 so we can only speculate on the fact that Greek Y-DNA (I-M170) is (739 samples):
    I1 : 3.7
    I2a1b-Din : 9.1
    I2*-B : 1.4
    I2a2 : 1.6

    Haplogroup J2 is (880 samples)
    J2a : 12.2
    J2b : 5.7

    Haplogroup E1b1b is (440 samples)
    E1b1b1a2 -V13 : 16.4
    E1b1b1a*-M78 : 2.3
    E1b1b1b -M81 : 0.5
    E1b1b1c-M123 : 2.0

    Finally and interesting,

    I2a2<I1 !!!!!! + I2*-B !!!!!!

    So myth of Cretan dancers is true,
    cretans moved to Aetolia-acarnania before the myceneans,


    my next is to find the connection south Italy R1a with the Greek Makedonia R1a,
    Greek R1a is connected with Norwegian R1a and Caucasus due to R1a1* (SRY1532.2)

    if they are connected then probably the R1a=Slavic is myth, but we have 2 R1a populations of different times,
    1 western and 1 eastern which have different times of arrival and different movement,

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    Archaiocapilos,

    Watch out that King et al. 2008 and King et al. 2011 share the exact same data for Greece, so the latter is redundant.

    I also had Martinez et al. 2007 for Crete.

    Where did you find so much data for each region apart from Crete ? Di Giacomo 2003 and King 2008 are the only two studies that divide samples into different regions. Did you include data from FYROM and Western Turkey as well ?
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It is primarly because of Thessaly/Sesclo and Argolis/Nemea that E1b1b rises to 27% in Maciamo's tables but they specifically sampled people who live in villages next to neolithic sites in that study so it's natural for them to score as high as 40% while a 21-22% of E1b1b is more likely for Greeks as a whole. Only in Peloponnese E1b1b seems to be high in both cities and country/villages (Patra 44%, Argolis 35.1%), in Larissa the capital city scores 14% while Sesclo scores 40.4%.
    In Athens where people settled from all around Greece E1b1b is 21.7%, in Macedonia is 21.8% , in Thrace it is 19.5%, in Ionia it is 19.1%, in Aegean it is 21.7%...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Archaiocapilos,

    Watch out that King et al. 2008 and King et al. 2011 share the exact same data for Greece, so the latter is redundant.

    I also had Martinez et al. 2007 for Crete.

    Where did you find so much data for each region apart from Crete ? Di Giacomo 2003 and King 2008 are the only two studies that divide samples into different regions. Did you include data from FYROM and Western Turkey as well ?
    In the paper of Semino's paper it specifically mentions Greeks 76, Macedonian Greeks 20 so I included the 76 samples in South Greece
    In the papers of King et.al we have Asia Minor Greeks 89, Macedonians 57, Thessalians 57, Peloponnesians 57
    In Battaglia's paper South Greeks (Athens) 92, Macedonian Greeks 57 (56 actually, one was unclassified)
    In Bosch et.al Greeks from Thrace 41 (so North Greece).
    In Di Giaccomo's paper North Greece 45, Central Greece 70, South Greeks 39, Aegean islands 69
    Finally in Firasat's paper 77 Macedonian Greeks.
    In
    In

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    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    In the paper of Semino's paper it specifically mentions Greeks 76, Macedonian Greeks 20 so I included the 76 samples in South Greece
    That's an assumption you are not allowed to make. Why place them in South Greece when they could be Central Greece or the islands ?

    Quote Originally Posted by archaiocapilos View Post
    In the papers of King et.al we have Asia Minor Greeks 89, Macedonians 57, Thessalians 57, Peloponnesians 57
    In Battaglia's paper South Greeks (Athens) 92, Macedonian Greeks 57 (56 actually, one was unclassified)
    In Bosch et.al Greeks from Thrace 41 (so North Greece).
    In Di Giaccomo's paper North Greece 45, Central Greece 70, South Greeks 39, Aegean islands 69
    Finally in Firasat's paper 77 Macedonian Greeks.
    All right. I suppose that the main issue was that you took Anatolian Iona as part of Greece, while I classified those results under Turkey.

    But I like your division for the other regions, so I will use it for the Y-DNA frequency tables on Eupedia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's an assumption you are not allowed to make. Why place them in South Greece when they could be Central Greece or the islands ?
    You are right but the 76 samples fit better in the south that's why I classified them there...


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    All right. I suppose that the main issue was that you took Anatolian Iona as part of Greeice, while I classified those results under Turkey.

    But I like your division for the other regions, so I will use it for the Y-DNA frequency tables on Eupedia.
    Offcourse I included Ionian GREEKS with the rest of Greeks, why wouldn't I...it's like the case of Jews who are included under Ashkenazi and Shephardi allthough their ancestors lived in different countries 100 years ago...Anatolian Greeks seem closer to Greeks than to Anatolian Turks (because there is not ANY central Asian lineage detected in Ionians and E1b1b rises to simillar frequencies with other Greeks) while Turks from the same region (they call it Aegean region) have a lot of N + Q + R1b-M73 (5/30 = 16.7%) and only 3.3% E-V13.
    Whould you really classify Ashkenazi Jews under Germany because they happened to live there 100 years ago and spoke German or Yiddish (a German/Slavic/Hebrew mix)?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-FGC13617
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b1

    Ethnic group
    European
    Country: Greece



    I would categorize Greek-speakers on Turkish soil as exactly that. Remember that many ethnic groups were citizens of the Byzantine Empire and to assume that because they speak Greek they must be Ionian is problematic. Poorly categorized samples are compromised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's an assumption you are not allowed to make. Why place them in South Greece when they could be Central Greece or the islands ?
    You are right but the 76 samples fit better in the south that's why I classified them there...


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    All right. I suppose that the main issue was that you took Anatolian Iona as part of Greeice, while I classified those results under Turkey.

    But I like your division for the other regions, so I will use it for the Y-DNA frequency tables on Eupedia.
    Offcourse I included Ionian GREEKS with the rest of Greeks, why wouldn't I...it's like the case of Jews who are included under Ashkenazi and Shephardi allthough their ancestors lived in different countries 100 years ago...Anatolian Greeks seem closer to Greeks than to Anatolian Turks (because there is not ANY central Asian lineage detected in Ionians and E1b1b rises to simillar frequencies with other Greeks) while Turks from the same region (they call it Aegean region) have a lot of N + Q + R1b-M73 (5/30 = 16.7%) and only 3.3% E-V13.
    Whould you really classify Ashkenazi Jews under Germany because they happened to live there 100 years ago and spoke German or Yiddish (a German/Slavic/Hebrew mix)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    But I like your division for the other regions, so I will use it for the Y-DNA frequency tables on Eupedia.

    The problem is that the samples over-represent Crete (5%) of the population taking 20% of the samples (creating a 4x inflation)

    And it underrepresented Central Greece-Epirus a bigger population center, yet only represented by 12.5% of the samples (creating a minimum 3x defect)

    This will influence the the overall accuracy of the frequencies where the contrast is highest in both regions.

    Highest contrast: E1b1b samples the highest at 31.5% in C. Greece & lowest in Crete E1b1b 8.8%, this alone moves E1b1b at least 5%, because it effected the frequencies of other regions that are much higher than 8.8%, especially that none of the sample had 45% peak samples, to reduce the 8.8% in Crete!

    E1b1b (+5) ------------26%

    Moderate contrast: R1b is the lowest in Central Greece at 10.2% & slightly above average in Crete at 17.1%, this sampling disparity should be represented by a 1.5% point adjustment
    R1b (-1.5) ------------ 14%

    J2, J1 & G2 also peak in Greece, but those have moderate effect
    J2 (-2) --------------- 21%
    J1 composite was 5% goes down to 3% (which is already there)
    G2 (-0.5)------------ 6.5%

    LT is 4.5% on the table, but all studies samples are under 4%, so it should be
    LT (-1)----------------3.5%

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    King et.al included an additional 89 samples of GREEKS from Asia Minor Maciamo so I included them too. They actually live in Greece now if you diin't understand it...they were not Turks but they descend from Smyrna and Fokaia.

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    Actually Smyrnians, Fokaians and Chians (from ancient Ionian regions) look pretty close in their Y-DNA (with the exception of I-M170 in Chios)
    Smyrna / Fokaia / Chios
    R1b1b2 : 27.6 / 22.6 / 26.2
    R1a1a : 5.2 / 6.5 / 9.5
    I : 12.1 / 16.2 / 2.4
    J2a : 15.5 / 9.7 / 11.9
    J2b : 6.9 / 3.2 / 4.8
    J1 : 5.2 / 9.8 / 2.4
    E1b1b : 17.2 / 22.6 / 23.8

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    That's the Martinez et al. 2007 study I mentioned. This brings the total of samples for Crete to 504. The frequencies are those indicated in the table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post

    Well i read all exept 2 (i could not open PDF)

    what you want to say? that R1b moved from Crete to North east Italy?
    or enetocracy? and what about Roman times and Inner greek R1b?

    all can explained easily, especially J,

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    One of the studies you quoted links Cretans with mainland Greeks first, than with Cypriot Greeks, than with Anatolian Turks and lastly with other Balkanians (the frequencies of a certain gene decline from 5.6% in Cretans/ to 3.4% in mainland Greeks/ to 2.?% in Cypriot Greeks/ to 1.5% in Anatolian Turks (from west Asia Minor)/ to 0% in Bulgarians...

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