Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

[ihype02]

34% of I2a1+R1a for northern Greece, so maybe about 40-45% in total. Just a bit less than Bulgaria and Macedonia. It's true that Heraclides 2017's paper on Cyprus gives 39% of I2+R1a for Greek Thrace.

In contrast, I2a1+R1a is 16% in Crete, 13% in the Cyclades, and only 6.5% among Greek Cypriots.

Maciamo 45% Slavic ancestry for Bulgaria seems fine however, in the Republic of Macedonia are you excluding Albanians who form a quarter of country's population?

 

[athos]

Interesting thread. I'm somewhat new to this but notice my haplogroups are not listed. 23 and me results were E-V13 for paternal and K2 for mtdna. My family is from peloponnese. Does the data in this thread imply that I am not a typical Greek ?

 

[IronSide]

Interesting thread. I'm somewhat new to this but notice my haplogroups are not listed. 23 and me results were E-V13 for paternal and K2 for mtdna. My family is from peloponnese. Does the data in this thread imply that I am not a typical Greek ?

Thats a strange question .. my good sir you have the most common haplogroup in Greece.

see this post https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26644-Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin/page11?p=495469&viewfull=1#post495469

E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (30-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (25%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (26%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), the northern Aegean Islands (20%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

 

[Yetos]

Interesting thread. I'm somewhat new to this but notice my haplogroups are not listed. 23 and me results were E-V13 for paternal and K2 for mtdna. My family is from peloponnese. Does the data in this thread imply that I am not a typical Greek ?

and most possible from Helmos, Achaia or Korinthia?

very typical

 

[athos]

Thanks for the information. Much appreciated. At first glance it looks like your data is referring to the E-V13 haplogroup.

Is is there any data on the K2 mtdna?

my family has told me the Greek names ending in "akis" are from Crete. This is where we think the K2 mtdna is coming from.

 

[athos]

Thanks for your reply.

 

[IronSide]

I previously posted about V13/CTS5856. Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.

All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1530 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1530 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples from the other phases that I mapped to the SNP's of the main phase (total n=1530). I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).


Levels over all of Greece:
C-M130 0,4%
E-M215 24,7%
G-M201 8,1%
I-M170 2,3% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
I1-M253 2,2%
I2-P37 8,4%
I2-M223 1,5%
J1-M267 4,5%
J2-M172 17,3%
L-M20 1%
N-M231 0,5%
Q-L232 0,6%
R1a-L63 9,9%
R1b-M343 15%
T-M170 3,1%


Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.

C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos

E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (30-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (25%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (26%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), the northern Aegean Islands (20%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (20%), Pontic Greeks (19%), the Dodecanese (18%), Crete (13%), the Ionian Islands (11%) Asia Minor (11%), North Aegean Islands (12%), Cyprus (16%). Lower in Thessaly (4%), Athens (4%), central Aegean islands (2%), on the Peloponessos (2-6%), Central mainland (2%), Epirus (3%).

I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (9%) and in Thessaly (6%)

I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (9%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.

I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1%), Crete (4%), Athens (6%), the central Aegean Islands (4%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (4%), High in Arcadia (21%), Greek Macedon (14%), Thessaly (13%), Epirus (20%), the Northern Pelopenessos (25%), Thesaloniki (14%), Asia Minor (11%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)

J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (12%), the Dodecanese (11%), central Aegean Islands (8%), Istanbul (11%), the central mainland (10%), on Cyprus (10%), in Arcadia (6%) and Crete (6%). It's low in Asia minor (2%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (1%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (4%)

J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (9%), Central mainland (7%), Greek Macedonia (10%), Dodecanese (11%), Epirus (13%), the Ionian islands (13%), higher in Cyprus (23%), Crete (29%), Athens (20%), Arcadia (23%), Pontic Greeks (26%), Istanbul 22%, Thesaloniki (25%) and the Central Aegean islands (27%)

L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.

R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (4%), Cyprus (6%), Crete (5%), Arcadia (6%), the Pontic Greeks (5%), Dodecanese (0%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (17%), Thessaly (15%), Epirus (13%), Central mainland (14%), Athens (14%), Thesaloniki (14%), the central Aegean Islands (12%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (18%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently), and than the Southern Pelopenessos samples would represent the earlier 6th-8th century Slavic settlement. However that doesn't seem to fit well with the distribution of R1b, which is also high in Albanians.

R1b-M343: low on Cyprus (8%), the Ionian Islands (6%), the central Aegean islands (14%), The pelopenessos (9-15%), high in the central mainland (29%), the Dodecanese (21%), Greek Macedonia (22%). The distribution underneath R1b: L151 is surprisingly high at 27,5%, V88 7,5%, PF7562 2,5%, CTS7822 37,5%, M269 (xPF7562 xL151, xCTS7822) 22,5%. It appears the non-L151 R1b is especially present in Greek Macedonia, Central mainland, Thessaly and Thesaloniki. The rest is a mixed picture. The L151 is very diverse, which might suggest it has a rather late date (medieval from the time of the crusades/Venetians?)

T-M70: higher on Cyprus (5,6%), Crete (5,6%), Asia Minor (5,6%), the Ionian islands (5,8%), Epirus (9,4%)

I also compared the results to some other studies about Greece with a regional breakdown:
1. Voskarides et al (2016) has details on Cyprus. The results are very much in line with Genographic, with one big exception: J2 is 33,4% in Voskarides and 23,6% in Genographic. E-M215, J1 and R1a are slightly higher in Genographic, T1 is at 5,6% in Genographic but absent is Voskarides. None of it has any effects on the above conclusions. Intersting is the E-M215 breakdown: only 7% is V13.

2.The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily, Tofanelli et al., 2015. This study has info on two Greek regions: Euboea (n=93) and Corinthia (n=104). Neither of them coincide well with one of the regions I used (and the numbers for Corinthia and euboea alone are to small to be relevant). Looking at E-M215 the Euboea results are lower and match those for Athens and the central and northern Aegean Islands, while Corinth is closer to Thessaly and the Peloponessos. Both are very low on G-M201, but G-P15 is very high in Euboea, the only comparable region is Cyprus. From the I-group I2-M223 is high on Euboa, this seems to be the case also in Genographic for this region and Attica (although samples are limited). The study also tests I2-M423, and the closest proxy in the genographic project is I-P37. As can be expected (given the Slavic origin that was presumed) levels are very low in Euboea and moderately high in Corinth. J1 is low in both, J2 is far higher in Euboea than any other region of Greece, and normal in Corinth. Levels of R1a are surprisingly high in both. Looking at E-M215 V13 is very dominant.

3. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean, King et.al, 2011. Confirms some Genographic observations like the high levels of V13 in Thessaly and the higher level of G in Asia minor. Phokaia seems to match Attica and Euboea for I-M223. I-M253 is surprisingly high in Asia minor (that was also seen in the Genographic samples, to a lesser extent). Also conclusions for I-P37 seem to be confirmed. Remarkable are the high levels of R1b in Asia minor, in contrast with the very low value in Sesklo/Dimini (although Genographic also found low amounts in Thessaly).

4. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects, Di Giaccomo et.al, 2003. This one is harder to compare due to the older way of designating and testing Haplogroups used in this study. Surprising in any case is the low value for DE in Larisa and Agrinion.

I also prepared a table of the remaining groups if I remove I1, I2-P37 and R1a as supposed later arrivals, so this might be closer to the 'classical' situation:

View attachment 8247

This post is probably growing too long again. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. I know there are a lot of people who here who know much more than me about this region and these haplogroups and who will be far more capable of interpreting these results.

Its a good thing that I2c is such an easily observable haplogroup, 6% in Thessaly and 9% in Crete, and if we assume it had higher frequency in ancient times you reach 6% in the Peloponnese, 10% in Thessaly and 12% in Crete, this made me think what was common between these regions ?

From this book page 255 "Prehistoric Thessaly Being Some Account of Recent Exavations and Explorations in North-eastern Greece from Lake Kopais to the Borders of Macedonia"

The geometric pottery of the early iron age from Thessaly itself, which seems to have some connection with the earlier Lianokladhi style, is remarkable for the resemblance it bears to the early geometric vases of Crete.

The fibulae from the Theotoku tombs, in which the bow is already present, but the pin plate only just apparent in its earliest stages, shows that this style is of a very early date, and also indicates the same general connections as the vases themselves.

It is therefore by no means impossible that we have here a hint of an archaeological basis for the traditional connection between Thessaly and Crete in the wanderings of the Magnetes, and the occurrence of similar place names such as Boebe, Magnesia, Phaestus, and Phalanna in both regions. At the period, to which this early iron age geometric pottery must be attributed, the Dorians must have been already within Greek territory or at least only just outside.

The geographical gap on the mainland in the Homeric catalougue between the forces of Agamemnon and Priam has sometimes been explained on the assumption that this district was peoples by Dorians. The early iron age vases from Pateli which belong to this region are, as we have seen, somewhat analogous to the vases from Marmariani and Theotoku.

Further in literature the Dorians first appear in Crete and their presence there is usually explained on the theory that they represent an early migration that had come direct by sea. Andron definitly asserts that they came to Crete from Histiaeotis, but as it is doubtful if this statement is more than an inference from the Homeric passage, it must be accepted with reserve. There seems however on the present evidence to be a good case for connecting the early geometric wares of Thessaly and Crete, and for attributing both to Dorian influence.

 

[Vlad82]

... Since then I've used the Genographic project samples to look deeper in the distribution of V13/CTS5856. The analysis of that group is too specific for this board, but I also looked at the distribution of all groups in Greece, and that might be of interest here. I picked Greece since V13/CTS5856 is the major haplogroup there, and the peculiar geography and well documented history of Greece might provide some insight in the migration of V13 and it's timing.

All what follows is based on data from the Genographic project ("The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project") unless otherwise specified, with many thanks to them for their work and their kind permission for me to access to their database.

I queried the Genographic project's database for all demographic fields containing "Greece" or "Greek". I selected all samples that had a male Greek ancestry (and excluded Vlach, Gypsy and Arvanite samples). Limiting to those with Y-DNA info I had 1530 samples. I used the different demographic fields to subdivide this 1530 samples in a number of regions. The samples belong to different phases of the project. The next statistics are based on the main one, containing 1119 samples. The following were the totals over these 1119, and the totals over the samples from the other phases that I mapped to the SNP's of the main phase (total n=1530). I have to stress this is not a representative sample of Greece as a whole, as regions from where there was a lot of emmigration are obviously favored, most Genographic participants were descendants of emmigrants (especially to the US).


Levels over all of Greece:
C-M130 0,4%
E-M215 24,7%
G-M201 8,1%
I-M170 2,3% (= I2-L596 or I2-Y10705)
I1-M253 2,2%
I2-P37 8,4%
I2-M223 1,5%
J1-M267 4,5%
J2-M172 17,3%
L-M20 1%
N-M231 0,5%
Q-L232 0,6%
R1a-L63 9,9%
R1b-M343 15%
T-M170 3,1%


Some observations per group over the distribution in Greece:
For the record: Northern Aegean is mainly Lemnos and Lesbos, Central Aegean is Chios, Icaria, Samos and the Cyclades.

C: present in small levels in Cyprus, Asia minor and the Pelopenesos

E-M215: significantly higher in Thessaly (32%), the Dodecanese (32%) and the Peloponessos (30-35%) with the exception of Arcadia, where it's only 24%. It's close to the mean in Asia minor (25%), Cyprus (25%), the Ionian islands (26%) and, maybe surprising, Epirus (28%). Slightly lower on the central Aegean Islands (22%), the northern Aegean Islands (20%), Athens (18%) and, maybe again surprising, Greek Macedonia (16%) and Thesaloniki (22%). It's significantly lower in Pontic Greeks (12%) and Crete (12%). In the detailed results the split is: 16,4% V13, 1% V32, 1% V22, 4,8% Z827. It's harder to judge the distribution of the subgroups as the totals are quite small for that.

G-M201: Higher in Euboea and the Sporades (20%), Pontic Greeks (19%), the Dodecanese (18%), Crete (13%), the Ionian Islands (11%) Asia Minor (11%), North Aegean Islands (12%), Cyprus (16%). Lower in Thessaly (4%), Athens (4%), central Aegean islands (2%), on the Peloponessos (2-6%), Central mainland (2%), Epirus (3%).

I-M170: Significantly higher on Crete (9%) and in Thessaly (6%)

I1-M253: Higher on the Ionian Islands (9%). The Ionian samples are mostly from Korfu, this might be related to the medieval occupation by Normans from the Sicilian kingdom.

I2-P37: Low on Cyprus (1%), Crete (4%), Athens (6%), the central Aegean Islands (4%), Pontic Greeks (0%), Dodecanese (4%), High in Arcadia (21%), Greek Macedon (14%), Thessaly (13%), Epirus (20%), the Northern Pelopenessos (25%), Thesaloniki (14%), Asia Minor (11%). This seems to suggest a Slavic origin. The I2 is dominated by F3145 (L621) in the detailed samples (73%)

J1-M267: Higher in Pontic Greeks (12%), the Dodecanese (11%), central Aegean Islands (8%), Istanbul (11%), the central mainland (10%), on Cyprus (10%), in Arcadia (6%) and Crete (6%). It's low in Asia minor (2%), The peloponessos besides Arcadia (0%), Greek Macedonia (1%), Epirus (0%), Northern Aegean Islands (4%)

J2-M172: Low in Thessaly (9%), Central mainland (7%), Greek Macedonia (10%), Dodecanese (11%), Epirus (13%), the Ionian islands (13%), higher in Cyprus (23%), Crete (29%), Athens (20%), Arcadia (23%), Pontic Greeks (26%), Istanbul 22%, Thesaloniki (25%) and the Central Aegean islands (27%)

L-M20: A little highter in Asia Minor and the Pontic Greeks.

R1a-L63: Much lower in Asia minor (4%), Cyprus (6%), Crete (5%), Arcadia (6%), the Pontic Greeks (5%), Dodecanese (0%) and the northern Pelopenessos (0%). It's high in Greek Macedonia (17%), Thessaly (15%), Epirus (13%), Central mainland (14%), Athens (14%), Thesaloniki (14%), the central Aegean Islands (12%) and the Southern Pelopenessos (18%). Looking at this, the subclades from more recent phases, and comparing to the FTDNA R1a project, it seems likely most of this R1a is Slavic in origin. The outlier in the central Aegean is partly due to samples from Ikaria, and is probably the result of migration in the 15th-16th century. From the limited deeper phase there's 8,3% Z93, 25% from the fairly recent CTS11962, 8,3% from L784, 37,5% from CTS3402, 12,5% from CTS1211 (xCTS3402). A quick check with the FTDNA R1a project reveals that there also L1029/CTS11962 and CTS1211 represent the largest share of Greek samples. It's a bit strange that on the pelopenessos R1a seems to complement I2. The I2 in the north might be explained by later Albanian influx (there were some Albanian speaking regions in the northern Pelopenessos until recently), and than the Southern Pelopenessos samples would represent the earlier 6th-8th century Slavic settlement. However that doesn't seem to fit well with the distribution of R1b, which is also high in Albanians.

R1b-M343: low on Cyprus (8%), the Ionian Islands (6%), the central Aegean islands (14%), The pelopenessos (9-15%), high in the central mainland (29%), the Dodecanese (21%), Greek Macedonia (22%). The distribution underneath R1b: L151 is surprisingly high at 27,5%, V88 7,5%, PF7562 2,5%, CTS7822 37,5%, M269 (xPF7562 xL151, xCTS7822) 22,5%. It appears the non-L151 R1b is especially present in Greek Macedonia, Central mainland, Thessaly and Thesaloniki. The rest is a mixed picture. The L151 is very diverse, which might suggest it has a rather late date (medieval from the time of the crusades/Venetians?)

T-M70: higher on Cyprus (5,6%), Crete (5,6%), Asia Minor (5,6%), the Ionian islands (5,8%), Epirus (9,4%)

I also compared the results to some other studies about Greece with a regional breakdown:
1. Voskarides et al (2016) has details on Cyprus. The results are very much in line with Genographic, with one big exception: J2 is 33,4% in Voskarides and 23,6% in Genographic. E-M215, J1 and R1a are slightly higher in Genographic, T1 is at 5,6% in Genographic but absent is Voskarides. None of it has any effects on the above conclusions. Intersting is the E-M215 breakdown: only 7% is V13.

2.The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily, Tofanelli et al., 2015. This study has info on two Greek regions: Euboea (n=93) and Corinthia (n=104). Neither of them coincide well with one of the regions I used (and the numbers for Corinthia and euboea alone are to small to be relevant). Looking at E-M215 the Euboea results are lower and match those for Athens and the central and northern Aegean Islands, while Corinth is closer to Thessaly and the Peloponessos. Both are very low on G-M201, but G-P15 is very high in Euboea, the only comparable region is Cyprus. From the I-group I2-M223 is high on Euboa, this seems to be the case also in Genographic for this region and Attica (although samples are limited). The study also tests I2-M423, and the closest proxy in the genographic project is I-P37. As can be expected (given the Slavic origin that was presumed) levels are very low in Euboea and moderately high in Corinth. J1 is low in both, J2 is far higher in Euboea than any other region of Greece, and normal in Corinth. Levels of R1a are surprisingly high in both. Looking at E-M215 V13 is very dominant.

3. The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean, King et.al, 2011. Confirms some Genographic observations like the high levels of V13 in Thessaly and the higher level of G in Asia minor. Phokaia seems to match Attica and Euboea for I-M223. I-M253 is surprisingly high in Asia minor (that was also seen in the Genographic samples, to a lesser extent). Also conclusions for I-P37 seem to be confirmed. Remarkable are the high levels of R1b in Asia minor, in contrast with the very low value in Sesklo/Dimini (although Genographic also found low amounts in Thessaly).

4. Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects, Di Giaccomo et.al, 2003. This one is harder to compare due to the older way of designating and testing Haplogroups used in this study. Surprising in any case is the low value for DE in Larisa and Agrinion.

I also prepared a table of the remaining groups if I remove I1, I2-P37 and R1a as supposed later arrivals, so this might be closer to the 'classical' situation:
...

This post is probably growing too long again. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. I know there are a lot of people who here who know much more than me about this region and these haplogroups and who will be far more capable of interpreting these results.

Thank you for reporting difference in distribution of haplogroups I2a-P37 and R1a in The Peloponnese.
On FTdna there are several people tested as I2a Dinaric from South Greece:
S17250:
1x Z16971 -Kythira
3x PH908 (DYS448=19) Athens, Geraki, Kosmas

Y4460:
1 x Y4460* -Lagkadia

Z17855:
1x Z17855 Corinth

This three branches have been found among Balkan Slavs and Northern Slavs, so they might be brought there with Slavic migrations 6-7 century or by later migrations from north (Greeks, Albanians, Slavs).

Among Greeks has been found a very rare branch of I-CTS10228, it is I-A2512, formed 2300 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp according the Yfull
1x A2512 but A7134- (I-A2512*) Thasos, Greece
2x A2512>A10959 -Arcadia and Sparta
1x A2512>A7134 - Messina
2x S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- need A2512 – Arcadia and Zante
Except one from Thasos, rest of them are from The Peloponnese and islands around it.
This branch has been also found in Spain, among Jews and Chuvash people from Russia, but not yet among Slavs. There is a high possibility that A2512 separated from rest of I-CTS10228 before Slavic expansion and somehow a part of it came to Greece before Slavs in 6-7 th century.
Tested A2512+ from Spain have Greek origin, also Jewish people might have paternal line from Greece according to Yfull tree.
One Chuvash from scientific study has been positive on A2512+ and another one on FTdna is S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- and no call for A2512 (but probably positive).
The Peloponnese may be area where A2512 started to spread around the Mediterranean Sea.

Could people with knowledge of history and migrations in South Greece give a possible (historical) explanation how A2512 came there?

 

[[email protected]]

LeBrok and i know that's 7 years old but still...

 

[Aspar]

Thank you for reporting difference in distribution of haplogroups I2a-P37 and R1a in The Peloponnese.
On FTdna there are several people tested as I2a Dinaric from South Greece:
S17250:
1x Z16971 -Kythira
3x PH908 (DYS448=19) Athens, Geraki, Kosmas
Y4460:
1 x Y4460* -Lagkadia
Z17855:
1x Z17855 Corinth
This three branches have been found among Balkan Slavs and Northern Slavs, so they might be brought there with Slavic migrations 6-7 century or by later migrations from north (Greeks, Albanians, Slavs).
Among Greeks has been found a very rare branch of I-CTS10228, it is I-A2512, formed 2300 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybp according the Yfull
1x A2512 but A7134- (I-A2512*) Thasos, Greece
2x A2512>A10959 -Arcadia and Sparta
1x A2512>A7134 - Messina
2x S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- need A2512 – Arcadia and Zante
Except one from Thasos, rest of them are from The Peloponnese and islands around it.
This branch has been also found in Spain, among Jews and Chuvash people from Russia, but not yet among Slavs. There is a high possibility that A2512 separated from rest of I-CTS10228 before Slavic expansion and somehow a part of it came to Greece before Slavs in 6-7 th century.
Tested A2512+ from Spain have Greek origin, also Jewish people might have paternal line from Greece according to Yfull tree.
One Chuvash from scientific study has been positive on A2512+ and another one on FTdna is S17250- ,Y4460- ,Z17855- and no call for A2512 (but probably positive).
The Peloponnese may be area where A2512 started to spread around the Mediterranean Sea.
Could people with knowledge of history and migrations in South Greece give a possible (historical) explanation how A2512 came there?

A2512 is very mysterious indeed.
Taking in consideration the TMRCA of this subbranch and the fact that it hasn't been found in any Slavic group yet, we can assume that this subbranch had arrived in Greece somewhere between 200 B.C. and 600 A.D.
The most probable migrations that brought it were those of the Goths and Huns.
Having been found in a Chuvash man only confirms my suspicion that this subbranch have been brought either by Goths who have acquired it from the Huns or have been brought by the Huns themselves.
We know about the the Gothic and Hunnic raids in the Balkans and also about the numerous Gothic and Hunnic warriors and other officials in service of the Byzantine empire.
Or it could have been brought by some Slavic tribe still, that have settled in Greece and had that specific mutation.

 

[Aspar]

I don't doubt your numbers.
What I certainly say, though, is that especially Nothern Greece received the biggest wave of the Asia Minor and Eastern Thrace Greeks during the '20s. It's not exaggeration if I say that your numbers have to be cut down half (well, approximately), in order to reach the actual number of the genetic Y's you posted (Slav derivered Y-haplos) of the nowydays Nothern Greeks.
Don't forget that all these people are never counted in the "North Greece" pool while testing; they are going to the "Turkish" pool instead.
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And they should not be counted, because they are not native to the region!
Only pre-1920 inhabitants should count!

 

[Yetos]

And they should not be counted, because they are not native to the region!
Only pre-1920 inhabitants should count!

in fact the searches ask for people that their parents inhabit before 1870
in North Greece.

So all exchanged and immigrant populations are excluded

 

[eastara]

in fact the searches ask for people that their parents inhabit before 1870
in North Greece.

So all exchanged and immigrant populations are excluded

Rafc has extracted data from the Genographic project, where all origin is self reported. I have filled the questionnaire myself and it goes only up to your grandparents. As most Greeks tested there in fact live in US, Australia, etc. they probably don't have information where their grandparents and further back actually came from (and even if they have, it is not asked specifically). So this geographic distribution in Greece should not be taken as autochthonous.

 

[Angela]

Eastara, that's the case for a lot of data, i.e. it's self-reported. That's even the case for a lot of academic studies. Researchers don't go and check the records at the town halls.

I doubt people are deliberately lying or that most of them are mistaken about their family origins. It may not be 100% accurate, but nothing is in these cases.

 

[Yetos]

Rafc has extracted data from the Genographic project, where all origin is self reported. I have filled the questionnaire myself and it goes only up to your grandparents. As most Greeks tested there in fact live in US, Australia, etc. they probably don't have information where their grandparents and further back actually came from (and even if they have, it is not asked specifically). So this geographic distribution in Greece should not be taken as autochthonous.

on contradictory
my sisters father in law and my far ungle who were tested at AUTH search
were asked to bring pappers from local offices or church baptise data
or marriage even Turkish identity or qitap (land registry)
to prove that family were before 1870,
we manage found back to 1850
an extra different gentical search is done also till 1905 as wider search

in fact my sister's father in law passed pass
due to a donation to church around 1850's few decades after the new villages established from spliting from the other bigger one
known and found written in the icon an in the book of donators
he was baptised by a passing monk
and entered the municipall hall pappers at age of 13
before WW2
born around 1927,
nobody knows when exactly his parents were born
since that time children could be written at age 8-14
and baptised even at age of 8.
Greek id cards were given to them from 1916-1926 in some villages

 

[Dibran]

A2512 is very mysterious indeed.
Taking in consideration the TMRCA of this subbranch and the fact that it hasn't been found in any Slavic group yet, we can assume that this subbranch had arrived in Greece somewhere between 200 B.C. and 600 A.D.
The most probable migrations that brought it were those of the Goths and Huns.
Having been found in a Chuvash man only confirms my suspicion that this subbranch have been brought either by Goths who have acquired it from the Huns or have been brought by the Huns themselves.
We know about the the Gothic and Hunnic raids in the Balkans and also about the numerous Gothic and Hunnic warriors and other officials in service of the Byzantine empire.
Or it could have been brought by some Slavic tribe still, that have settled in Greece and had that specific mutation.

Idk, Theres quite a few Slavic(and a Baltic) samples on y-full belonging to sub-branches of I-A2512. Poland, Belarus, Lithuania. Albeit younger than the Greek sample. Yet still not conclusive(considering Yfull is not representative of all data).

I-A2512 is also a descendant of I-Y3120, which is(per yfull) Polish. It's immediate descendant clade I-Z17855(sister clade of I-A2512) are predominantly South-Slavic Samples(one Polish and Ukrainian sample) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A2512/

Chances are(whether it was Gothic or not originally)it was part of the Slavic Expansion. If the Greek samples were Basal CTS10228 or older, I would reckon Goths definitely. Or maybe Bastarnae.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Idk, Theres quite a few Slavic(and a Baltic) samples on y-full belonging to sub-branches of I-A2512. Poland, Belarus, Lithuania. Albeit younger than the Greek sample.

All of these people appear to be Jewish. None of them appear to be non-Jewish Slavs. They are downstream of Greeks in the tree and likely migrated to Eastern Europe from wherever they lived among Greeks. Here is the FTDNA I2a haplogroup project, showing the people and their surnames.

https://tinyurl.com/y9lopbjq

 

[Dibran]

All of these people appear to be Jewish. None of them appear to be non-Jewish Slavs. They are downstream of Greeks in the tree and likely migrated to Eastern Europe from wherever they lived among Greeks. Here is the FTDNA I2a haplogroup project, showing the people and their surnames.

https://tinyurl.com/y9lopbjq

Interesting, What about its ancestor branch and sister clade? I-A2512 is also a descendant of I-Y3120, which is(per yfull) Polish. It's immediate descendant clade I-Z17855(sister clade of I-A2512) are predominantly South-Slavic Samples(one Polish and Ukrainian sample) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Interesting, What about its ancestor branch and sister clade? I-A2512 is also a descendant of I-Y3120, which is(per yfull) Polish. It's immediate descendant clade I-Z17855(sister clade of I-A2512) are predominantly South-Slavic Samples(one Polish and Ukrainian sample) - https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Z17855/

Is it not possible that A2512 predated Slavic migrations in Greece? What about earlier invasions, like Goths?

There are two major branches of A2512: A10959 and A7134. The Eastern European Jews are downstream in A10959, and the Chuvash and Spanish people are in A7134.

 

[Sakattack]

And they should not be counted, because they are not native to the region!
Only pre-1920 inhabitants should count!

Just saw that.

Ive not said that they should be included. In 1-2 generations they eventually will be.

All I am saying is that when we say "in Nothern Greece this and this bla bla bla" etc we don't have the actual picture of the area, which is A LOT different because of the huge numbers of people with different ancestry.

I can't recall any other area in Europe today that the studied "truth" is so different from the actual one.

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