Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

[Yetos]

Yeah, and you have to consider the E-V13, R1b-L283 and J2-L283 that was brought by Albanians and Vlachs, and those are definitely no small numbers, especially in the north.

if the late Lazarides work is certain,

you may start cry from Today,
especially for J2b

 

[Johane Derite]

if the late Lazarides work is certain,

you may start cry from Today,
especially for J2b

Why cry? Why for J2B especially?

 

[Yetos]

@ Derite

or the letter means IN PE RA TO RE INPERATORE = emperror?

 

[Corrado]

I second that. After checking the subclades, it looks like almost all the I2a1 and the R1a in Greece is of Slavic origin, which is about 20-21%. Of course Slavs aren't pure I2a1 + R1a. They also carry other haplogroups that can easily be mistaken for native Greek, like E-V13, G2a, J2a, J2b, R1b-L23... So in all likelihood 21% is an underestimate. 25 to 28% is more realistic. That's about the same amount of (Proto-)Slavic Y-DNA as in Austria or East Germany. One country doesn't need to be linguistically or culturally Slavic to have substantial Slavic admixture.

Is the majority of I2 in Greece I2a1? Is there no significant amount of I2a2, which could be a direct Neolithic legacy?

EDIT: Nevermind, I was confused, I2a2 was never a Balkan/Anatolian lineage, only I2a1. That's honestly quite surprising that virtually all of it in Greece is Slavic mediated, it means that likely only a portion of the Greek G2a lineages are all the paternal continuity that modern Greeks share with the Neolithic period.

 

[Sakattack]

I second that. After checking the subclades, it looks like almost all the I2a1 and the R1a in Greece is of Slavic origin, which is about 20-21%. Of course Slavs aren't pure I2a1 + R1a. They also carry other haplogroups that can easily be mistaken for native Greek, like E-V13, G2a, J2a, J2b, R1b-L23... So in all likelihood 21% is an underestimate. 25 to 28% is more realistic. That's about the same amount of (Proto-)Slavic Y-DNA as in Austria or East Germany. One country doesn't need to be linguistically or culturally Slavic to have substantial Slavic admixture.

I don't doubt your numbers.

What I certainly say, though, is that especially Nothern Greece received the biggest wave of the Asia Minor and Eastern Thrace Greeks during the '20s. It's not exaggeration if I say that your numbers have to be cut down half (well, approximately), in order to reach the actual number of the genetic Y's you posted (Slav derivered Y-haplos) of the nowydays Nothern Greeks.
Don't forget that all these people are never counted in the "North Greece" pool while testing; they are going to the "Turkish" pool instead.

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[Johane Derite]

if the late Lazarides work is certain,

you may start cry from Today,
especially for J2b

Can you please explain what you meant here ? What are you trying to imply?

 

[Sile]

Why do people who know nothing about the albanian language talk about it as if they do?
Why do people who know nothing about albanian history talk about it as if they do?
What is the emotional investment that is deeply ingrained in this attitude?
Why did Skenderbeu speak albanian? Why are his relatives that fled to italy after his death all arbereshe?
(http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/art...g-s-wife-s-life-and-death-in-exile-12-19-2016 )
This is Skenderbeu's helmet:

The lettering around the helmet reads: [FONT=&]* IN * PE * RA * TO * RE * BT *
This stands for "[/FONT][FONT=&]Jhezus Nazarenus[/FONT][FONT=&] * [/FONT][FONT=&]Principi Emathie[/FONT][FONT=&] * [/FONT][FONT=&]Regi Albaniae[/FONT][FONT=&] * [/FONT][FONT=&]Terrori Osmanorum[/FONT][FONT=&] * [/FONT][FONT=&]Regi Epirotarum[/FONT][FONT=&] * [/FONT][FONT=&]Benedictat Te[/FONT][FONT=&] "
Translated this means: Jesus of Nazareth blesses the Prince of Mat, King of Albania, Terrorizer of Ottomans and King of Epirus.
Mat is in NORTHERN ALBANIA ([/FONT]https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Mat,_Albania). Skenderbeu is known to be a northern Albanian.
Its clear from your consistent obsession with albanians that you have some deep identity issues. Get over yourself and realise that even
the crazy hyper nationalist albanians that do exist exist because of the homocidal history of the Greek Orthodox Church over the last 2000
years. Its a defense mechanism that ensured the survival of the Albanian language despite being surrounded on all sides.

your deflecting.............answer what I stated.............why did he announce himself as an epirote ..........their are albanians here who even stste this on their signature block

 

[Johane Derite]

your deflecting.............answer what I stated.............why did he announce himself as an epirote ..........their are albanians here who even stste this on their signature block

Firstly, produce where he states that he is an epirote.

Skanderbeg always signed himself as Lord of Albania and in that territory he included Epirus.

If you are referring to Laberia's signature then please ask him to provide the source because for me its totally not reliable...

 

[Sile]

@ Derite

or the letter means IN PE RA TO RE INPERATORE = emperror?

don't worry about it ............he has a different dictionary "fake one"

plus the helmet is not from the time , it is a fabricated 20th century

 

[Sile]

Firstly, produce where he states that he is an epirote.
Skanderbeg always signed himself as Lord of Albania and in that territory he included Epirus.
If you are referring to Laberia's signature then please ask him to provide the source because for me its totally not reliable...

Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto:
Giorgio, gentleman of Albania, to Giovanni Antonio, Prince ofTaranto, greeting.
Having made a truce with the enemy of my religion I have not wanted that my friend remain (fraudato) of my aid. (Spesse?) times, Alfonso, his father, invited my help while I waged war against the Turks. Therefore I would be very ungrateful if I had not resisted (lOistesso?) service to his son. I remember what your king did because now (non deve vedere succedergli?) this who is his son? You adored his father, and why now do you try to throw out his son? Where did this power come from? Who has the power to setup the King of Sicily, you or the Roman Pontiff?
I came to aid Ferrante, son of the king and seat of the Apostolica. I came opposing your unfaithfulness and innumerable great betrayals in this kingdom. (Ned?) will you ever be unpunished for your perjury. This is the reason for my war against you. I merit this no less than I merited making war against the Turks, nor are you less Turk than them. (Imperocche vi sono alcuni?) that guide you in a straight line not to be of some sect. You my opponents the French and the names of those people, and those for the religion wage grand war.
I do not want to dispute ancient matters with you, matters that perhaps were much less than what was told about them. Certainly in our times the Aragonese armadas have often coursed the Aegean Sea, have plundered the Turkish coasts, have (riportata?) the prey of the enemies; and even today the Aragonese armies defend Trojafrom the jaws of the enemy. Why do I remember the old things and leave the new parts? If they change the family costumes and the plowmen of the kingdom, and the kings of the plowmen return? (Ne troverai nobilita piu antica della virtu.)
Nor can I deny that you are not with the obnoxious French nation, (imperocche) you being mainly in aid of King Alfonso, you hunted the French of this kingdom. I do not know now what new virtue shines in this. Perhaps it is some new star that you have now seen among the French?
Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.
If our chronicles do not lie we call ourselves Epiroti. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?
In the past the Albanese have (fatto?) experience if the Pugilese were armed; (neO) I would again find some who would have been able to aspired to my nature. I have well noted from the back how many of your soldiers are well armed but have never been able to see their helmets or (tanpoco?) the face except those that have become prisoners. (NeO?) I seek your house (Bastandomi?) my own. Besides, it is well known that you often would have shot your neighbors for their possessions, as now you would force out the king of your house and your kingdom.
(Che se?) If I fall in the difficult task I have embarked on I will be buried as (mivai?) wishing in your letter, will bring back my soul as a reward from the Chancellor of the universe, of God. Not only will I have perfected my intention, but also I will have planned and attempted some distinguished deed.
the letter above translated

 

[Johane Derite]

plus the helmet is not from the time , it is a fabricated 20th century

You're just outright accusing me of falsifying or making this up myself?

http://frosina.org/scanderbegs-helmet-and-sword-in-austrian-museum/

" Between the rosettes inscription: in/per/ra/to/re/bt. "

Do you think the Austrians made that up?

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but this is the real helmet which is stored in the austrian museum in Vienna.

If when faced with something you don't know you immediately result to calling me a liar then you have serious mental issues.

don't worry about it ............he has a different dictionary "fake one"

How sick must you be to be so confident on something you never even knew existed until now?

You just now learn about in/per/ra/to/re/bt from me, and your first response is that the explanation I have given is "fake" and that it meaning EMPEROR is more reasonable?

Whats wrong with you.

For you @Yetos, since you're greek I would recommend you go read up about Hubris and how it provokes Nemesis.

 

[Johane Derite]

Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto:
Giorgio, gentleman of Albania, to Giovanni Antonio, Prince ofTaranto, greeting.
Having made a truce with the enemy of my religion I have not wanted that my friend remain (fraudato) of my aid. (Spesse?) times, Alfonso, his father, invited my help while I waged war against the Turks. Therefore I would be very ungrateful if I had not resisted (lOistesso?) service to his son. I remember what your king did because now (non deve vedere succedergli?) this who is his son? You adored his father, and why now do you try to throw out his son? Where did this power come from? Who has the power to setup the King of Sicily, you or the Roman Pontiff?
I came to aid Ferrante, son of the king and seat of the Apostolica. I came opposing your unfaithfulness and innumerable great betrayals in this kingdom. (Ned?) will you ever be unpunished for your perjury. This is the reason for my war against you. I merit this no less than I merited making war against the Turks, nor are you less Turk than them. (Imperocche vi sono alcuni?) that guide you in a straight line not to be of some sect. You my opponents the French and the names of those people, and those for the religion wage grand war.
I do not want to dispute ancient matters with you, matters that perhaps were much less than what was told about them. Certainly in our times the Aragonese armadas have often coursed the Aegean Sea, have plundered the Turkish coasts, have (riportata?) the prey of the enemies; and even today the Aragonese armies defend Trojafrom the jaws of the enemy. Why do I remember the old things and leave the new parts? If they change the family costumes and the plowmen of the kingdom, and the kings of the plowmen return? (Ne troverai nobilita piu antica della virtu.)
Nor can I deny that you are not with the obnoxious French nation, (imperocche) you being mainly in aid of King Alfonso, you hunted the French of this kingdom. I do not know now what new virtue shines in this. Perhaps it is some new star that you have now seen among the French?
Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.
If our chronicles do not lie we call ourselves Epiroti. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?
In the past the Albanese have (fatto?) experience if the Pugilese were armed; (neO) I would again find some who would have been able to aspired to my nature. I have well noted from the back how many of your soldiers are well armed but have never been able to see their helmets or (tanpoco?) the face except those that have become prisoners. (NeO?) I seek your house (Bastandomi?) my own. Besides, it is well known that you often would have shot your neighbors for their possessions, as now you would force out the king of your house and your kingdom.
(Che se?) If I fall in the difficult task I have embarked on I will be buried as (mivai?) wishing in your letter, will bring back my soul as a reward from the Chancellor of the universe, of God. Not only will I have perfected my intention, but also I will have planned and attempted some distinguished deed.
the letter above translated

Exactly as I said, if you are referring to Laberia's signature, which you have confirmed you were referring to, then please produce a source. This is not a source. It is a larger letter with no confirmation of authenticity. It sounds so obviously fake!

It's even possible that Laberia wrote it himself in some other forum jeez. You produced no SOURCE. I have looked for this in the past when I saw it in Laberia's document and found NOTHING that made me believe its credible.

Don't create scientific hypotheses that Albanians are epirotes based on signatures you see

 

[blevins13]

They do hate him , because he stated in his own hand writing that he was an epirote .............nationalistic Albanians hate this notion

Quite the opposite, they love him among other things for that as well. Stop lying....this is low level discussion, no data and proof just crap.


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[Angela]

@Sile,
Just since I've been gone you've called a member a liar and failed to source your comments from reputable academic sites or papers.

Cut it out or you're going to get another infraction and you'll be out of here again.

I don't enjoy doing this kind of thing, and particularly on a Friday night, so stop this nonsense.

 

[Fatherland]

Letter from Skanderbeg to the Prince of Taranto:
Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.
If our chronicles do not lie we call ourselves Epiroti. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty.

Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults.

Albanese, yes, his own people.

Now off with you!

 

[Sile]

@Sile,
Just since I've been gone you've called a member a liar and failed to source your comments from reputable academic sites or papers.
Cut it out or you're going to get another infraction and you'll be out of here again.
I don't enjoy doing this kind of thing, and particularly on a Friday night, so stop this nonsense.

it comes from this person https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_Barleti
the article is in latin translated for me from latin

even the link has skandenberg as prince of the epirotes .........more than one

 

[Sile]

Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults.

Albanese, yes, his own people.

Now off with you!

lol...read it again

 

[Fatherland]

lol...read it again

I have no problem as Albanians are strongly Epirotes. We are native to the area.

What is bizarre is you Sile, claiming mtDNA: H95a as Ostrogothic descendant.

 

[Sile]

I have no problem as Albanians are strongly Epirotes. We are native to the area.

What is bizarre is you Sile, claiming mtDNA: H95a as Ostrogothic descendant.

Well, my albanian friend, mr, Emini ..........from Resen, macedonia ............always state that Epiotes and macedonians are the only ancient people that modern albanians came from.

lol.........a theory ..........I once thought is was eastern alps...........but the numbers are far more in gotland, sweden and west-finland

 

[Fatherland]

Well, my albanian friend, mr, Emini ..........from Resen, macedonia ............always state that Epiotes and macedonians are the only ancient people that modern albanians came from.

lol.........a theory ..........I once thought is was eastern alps...........but the numbers are far more in gotland, sweden and west-finland

Your psuedo-theories are all faulty.

Reported for slanderous sarcasm.