Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

[Trojet]

What is the J2b-L283% on Euboea? Euboean Greeks colonized Northeastern Sicily, Reggio area and had a couple of colonies in Campania, I checked to see if I can find any J2b-L283 in those areas and I found 2 in Catania (province) both are under J2b-Z2197 with one testing positive for this subclade, there is also one suggested to be positive in Athens (but Athens is a large city with various Greeks coming from all over).

Regarding Euboea, the following is taken from here: http://amsdottorato.unibo.it/3628/1/Anagnostou_Paolo_tesi.pdf

"The sister clade of J2a-M410, J2b-M102 shows a higher frequency in Euboea (9.4%), with the majority of haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 sub-branch (77.8%). On the other hand Korinthia shows a frequency of haplogroup J2b-M241 of 5.5%, with all haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 lineage"

As we know in Europe all J2b-M241 is J2b-L283, so according to this study in Euboea J2b-L283 is 7.3%, while the rest of J2b should be J2b1-M205 at 2.1%, for a total of 9.4% J2b. In Korinthia J2b-L283 is 5.5%. For comparison in the most recent study of Cyprus J2b-L283 is ~1%.

J2b-Z1297 is an upstream of J2b-Z631 so maybe can all these Greek looking Z631 actually be just under J-Z1297, on Maciamo's J2b map there is a hot spot in the ancient region of Ionia in Turkey, at least there's a connection for Ionian Greeks, Dorians could have carried a similar subclade. I think it would make sense of what you said about the Mycenaeans. Essentially Z631 is less likely at the moment. I would like to know your thoughts on this.

Ok, I compiled the following Greek J2b-L283 samples from FTDNA projects: J2, M241, Greek DNA, and one from the Albanian project. Here is what I got:

Subclade (Predicted/Confirmed) Origin

1. Unclassified Tripolis, Peloponnese

2. Y15058 Greek Macedonia

3. Y15058>PH1602 Vlach, NW Greece

4. Z1296>PH1751 (Albanian cluster) Greece

5. Z1296>PH1751 (Albanian cluster) NW Greece>Instanbul

6. Z1296>? (Vlach cluster observed in Dukas, Albania) Greece

7. Z1297>Y23094 Arvanite, Greek Macedonia

8. Z1297>Y23094 Athens

9. Z1297>Y23094 Greece

10. Z1297>Y23094 Greece

11. Z1295>Y21878? (Albanian cluster) Artemisio, Greece

12. Z1295 (Y21878 or Z631) Vlach, Greek Macedonia

13. Z1295>Y21878 (Albanian cluster) Greece

14. Z631 Tripolis, Peloponnese

15. Z631 West Macedonia, Greece

16. Z631 Greece

YFull tree of these subcaldes: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2507/


I was able to get some more information regarding some of these samples, such as origin and ethnicity which I added.
It seems there is various J2b-L283 subclades in Greece. The most common seems to be J-Z1297>Y23094. Its TMRCA is ~3400 ybp. And my guess is that it wasn't present among Mycenaeans, unless of course if we assume the J-Z1296 branch expanded from Greece, which seems unlikely at this point. Similarly J-Z631 TMRCA is even younger, at 2900 ybp. So my observation about these J2b-L283 subclades in Greece (combined with the areas where it peaks and considering it's virtually absent among Pontic Greeks and in Greek Islands) remains the same, that most likely they are a combination of different migrations from further north: Dorians, Illyrians, Thracians, and later Vlachs and Albanians.

 

[Yetos]

I was able to get some more information regarding some of these samples, such as origin and ethnicity which I added.

from where?
you contact the epigoni of the tests?

 

[Trojet]

from where?
you contact the epigoni of the tests?

I am FTDNA admin...

 

[Azzurro]

Regarding Euboea, the following is taken from here: http://amsdottorato.unibo.it/3628/1/Anagnostou_Paolo_tesi.pdf

"The sister clade of J2a-M410, J2b-M102 shows a higher frequency in Euboea (9.4%), with the majority of haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 sub-branch (77.8%). On the other hand Korinthia shows a frequency of haplogroup J2b-M241 of 5.5%, with all haplotypes belonging to the J2b-M241 lineage"

As we know in Europe all J2b-M241 is J2b-L283, so according to this study in Euboea J2b-L283 is 7.3%, while the rest of J2b should be J2b1-M205 at 2.1%, for a total of 9.4% J2b. In Korinthia J2b-L283 is 5.5%. For comparison in the most recent study of Cyprus J2b-L283 is ~1%.



Ok, I compiled the following Greek J2b-L283 samples from FTDNA projects: J2, M241, Greek DNA, and one from the Albanian project. Here is what I got:

Subclade (Predicted/Confirmed) Origin

1. Unclassified Tripolis, Peloponnese

2. Y15058 Greek Macedonia

3. Y15058>PH1602 Vlach, NW Greece

4. Z1296>PH1751 (Albanian cluster) Greece

5. Z1296>PH1751 (Albanian cluster) NW Greece>Instanbul

6. Z1296>? (Vlach cluster observed in Dukas, Albania) Greece

7. Z1297>Y23094 Arvanite, Greek Macedonia

8. Z1297>Y23094 Athens

9. Z1297>Y23094 Greece

10. Z1297>Y23094 Greece

11. Z1295>Y21878? (Albanian cluster) Artemisio, Greece

12. Z1295 (Y21878 or Z631) Vlach, Greek Macedonia

13. Z1295>Y21878 (Albanian cluster) Greece

14. Z631 Tripolis, Peloponnese

15. Z631 West Macedonia, Greece

16. Z631 Greece

YFull tree of these subcaldes: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2507/


I was able to get some more information regarding some of these samples, such as origin and ethnicity which I added.
So it seems there is various J2b-L283 subclades in Greece. The most common seems to be J-Z1297>Y23094. Its TMRCA is ~3400 ybp, so my guess is it wasn't present among Mycenaeans, unless of course if we assume the Z1296 branch expanded from Greece, which seems unlikely at this point. Similarly J-Z631 TMRCA is even younger, at 2900 ybp. So my observation about these J2b-L283 subclades in Greece (combined with the areas where it peaks and considering it's virtually absent among Pontic Greeks and in Greek Islands) remains the same, that most likely they are a combination of different migrations from further north: Dorians, Illyrians, Thracians, and later Vlachs and Albanians.

Thank you for this and great job! So it changes from what I saw when you go into the J-M241 project which is more accurate interpretation. Numbers 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 13 look to be Albanian in origin and 2, 3, 6 and 12 look to be Vlach in origin which is in line to what you were saying. Which would be the majority of the Greek J2b-L283 lineages, this could be due to sample bias and nevertheless important. I don't think J2b-Z1296 expanded from Greece either. Though again J2b-Z631 seems to be the unique J-L283 found in Greeks versus Albanians and Vlachs, the TMRCA of Z631 also matches the settlement of the Dorians in Greece around 950 BC, the invasion was supposedly around 1200 BC but the settlement wouldn't happen until the Geometric period of Greece which is roughly 950 BC, its possible that this branch found in Greeks could have split earlier (probably 3200 ybp) and formed their own subclade, BigY followed by Yfull analysis would be interesting for the Greek J-Z631. We should also examine J-Z1297>J-Y23094 too, this could be a shared Southern Balkan lineage for Albanians, Bulgarians and Greeks, probably originally Thracian, finding 2 in Catania (province) also makes it likely it was carried by the Ionic Greeks as well.

 

[Daemon2017]

Azov greeks TOP3 is:
J2 - 31%
I1 - 14%
R1a - 14%

 

[Icarian Porphyrogene]

Hello, it would be interesting if you could elaborate on the outlier of Ikaria concerning R1a-L63. Could you provide us with specific data of the Ikarian sample. I must say that I have a special interest on the matter since I am of Ikarian origin from both sides for "countless" generations. I should add that Ikarians didn't want to mix with other Greeks as they considered them as peasants (choriates) and despite the poor conditions and the harsh environment of the island they always maintained and boasted about (since at least the mid 17th century from when we have written records by Archibishop of Samos Georgirinis to this day) being the descendents of byzantine nobility.


Thank you in advance

 

[LeBrok]

Hello, it would be interesting if you could elaborate on the outlier of Ikaria concerning R1a-L63. Could you provide us with specific data of the Ikarian sample. I must say that I have a special interest on the matter since I am of Ikarian origin from both sides for "countless" generations. I should add that Ikarians didn't want to mix with other Greeks as they considered them as peasants (choriates) and despite the poor conditions and the harsh environment of the island they always maintained and boasted about (since at least the mid 17th century from when we have written records by Archibishop of Samos Georgirinis to this day) being the descendents of byzantine nobility.


Thank you in advance

This is interesting, I was wondering why Greek islanders are genetically different from mainlanders. Despite long common history, religion, culture and trade. Greek mainlanders look genetically closer to Albanians or South Italians than to Greek Islanders.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...mporary/page20?p=511457&viewfull=1#post511457

 

[Dianatomia]

This is interesting, I was wondering why Greek islanders are genetically different from mainlanders. Despite long common history, religion, culture and trade. Greek mainlanders look genetically closer to Albanians or South Italians than to Greek Islanders.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...mporary/page20?p=511457&viewfull=1#post511457

This is not a rule per se. There are many island groups in Greece. The Ionian Islands (where the Ikarias belong to) for example are similar to mainland Greece genetically. At least far more than they are to the Eastern Islanders. The islanders which are more different compared to mainland Greece are the Dodecanesse and Cretans. But the (pre-) history of those islands compared to mainland Greece is not as similar as you might suggest.

 

[Seanp]

Greek Islands were historically more isolated and free from Slavic and Arvanite settlements which had definitely some input on Mainland's population. We just have to consider the basic geography to understand it. Some Islands like Crete and Chios has had some Venetian settlements so some North Italian influence is present there.

Crete definitely has some Italian admixture because of Venetian settlements there as well as Ionian Islands and Western Greece do to some extent.

 

[Icarian Porphyrogene]

In fact in Chios, like in Ikaria to a lesser extent, the settlers were from Genoa

 

[Icarian Porphyrogene]

Interesting although I am not sure about the validity of the results on the Aegean Islanders (eastern) as far as Ikarians are concerned. Quite a few of the Aegean islands had very unique historical and anthropological backgrounds from the rest and there their geographic "proximity" does not imply common ancenstry,

Thank you for your reply

 

[LeBrok]

This is not a rule per se. There are many island groups in Greece. The Ionian Islands (where the Ikarias belong to) for example are similar to mainland Greece genetically. At least far more than they are to the Eastern Islanders. The islanders which are more different compared to mainland Greece are the Dodecanesse and Cretans. But the (pre-) history of those islands compared to mainland Greece is not as similar as you might suggest.

What I have are Kretans, Chiros, Dodecanese, Andros. They all look very similar, with Dodecanese shifted a bit towards Turkey. Cyprus is totally shifted towards Near East, being "third" distinct Greek population.
I don't have islands looking like mainland though.

Perhaps Ikarias wants to share his gedmatch kit number.

 

[Dianatomia]

What I have are Kretans, Chiros, Dodecanese, Andros. They all look very similar, with Dodecanese shifted a bit towards Turkey. Cyprus is totally shifted towards Near East, being "third" distinct Greek population.
I don't have islands looking like mainland though.

Perhaps Ikarias wants to share his gedmatch kit number.

For starters, I would not rate Greek islanders and non islanders as 'genetically different'. They all cluster near each other. Especially when compared to non Greeks. There are outliers though. And these are groups such as Cypriots, Capadocian and Pontian Greeks. Although one can see that they are to an extent related with the rest of Greeks, they do tend to stick out. The rest of the Greeks from around the Aegean, including those who hail from Western Anatolia, tend to be similar to each other, with some regional genetic variety. This is what you are pointing at. However, there is no rule which suggest that all Islanders tend to be of the same regional variety, while all people from the mainland are of another variety. Cretans and Ionian islanders are quite different from each other. The latter are closer to mainland Greece while Cretans are quite distinct from other Greeks (Feel free to have a look at the first age of this threat). After all, Crete has its own unique history as the island was the host of the Minoan civilization. While Cyprus was also colonized by Phoenicians alongside with Greeks and indigenous Neolithic Cypriot people. What does this have to do with Greeks from the Ionian Islands? If we are not ignorant to Greek history, it would only be expected that the Ionian islands tend to be closer to the Greek mainland, and Crete certainly would have some genetic difference compared to the mainland. While it is not strange at all that Cyprus will be different from Crete as well. So three Islands, three different subgroups.

Surely, ever since antiquity other forms of intermixture have had an impact to the Greek population. But I would like to stress that there is no unique genetic standard even in classical Greece. So we should not be to fast to point out that any genetic difference between two Greek groups shows one pure Greek and one mixed one. People have the tendency to do that.

 

[Sakattack]

The Ionian Islands (where the Ikarias belong to)..

Ikaria is located in East Aegean Sea.

The truth is that islanders (Aegean Islanders, not the Ionian ones) as well as Cretans, had not been influenced (many of them not at all) from the the Balkan people that entered the peninsula through centuries. Their influences were mostly Roman, Anatolian and perhaps Semetic.

Mainlanders slightly shifted one way, Islanders slightly another and so we have this result nowdays.

This is the explanation I give.

 

[Dianatomia]

Ikaria is located in East Aegean Sea.

I stand corrected. I mixed it up with another one.

The truth is that islanders (Aegean Islanders, not the Ionian ones) as well as Cretans, had not been influenced (many of them not at all) from the the Balkan people that entered the peninsula through centuries. Their influences were mostly Roman, Anatolian and perhaps Semetic.

Mainlanders slightly shifted one way, Islanders slightly another and so we have this result nowdays.

This is the explanation I give.

You do realize that this assumption entails the fact that Ancient Greeks, from the mainland and the Ionian Islands, to Crete, to Ionia, to Cyprus must have been genetically entirely identical. Without regional variety. To me that would be quite remarkable.

My explanation is that they were already shifted away from each other. I am quite sure that this can be supported scientifically. I don't assume there was no inter mixture after antiquity ofcourse.

 

[LeBrok]

For starters, I would not rate Greek islanders and non islanders as 'genetically different'. They all cluster near each other. Especially when compared to non Greeks. There are outliers though. And these are groups such as Cypriots, Capadocian and Pontian Greeks. Although one can see that they are to an extent related with the rest of Greeks, they do tend to stick out.

The "cruel" truth is that Greek mainlanders are genetically closer to Albanians than to Islanders. Nothing unusual here, we can see similar phenomenon in Italy of islanders to be genetically different than mainlanders. By genetically different I don't mean from East Asia or Mars, but I can recognize who they are buy eyeballing the admixture numbers. I would have great difficulty to recognize Greek mainlander from Albanian though, just looking at numbers.

Did you check the tables and PCA distances?
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...mporary/page20?p=511457&viewfull=1#post511457

The rest of the Greeks from around the Aegean, including those who hail from Western Anatolia, tend to be similar to each other, with some regional genetic variety. This is what you are pointing at. However, there is no rule which suggest that all Islanders tend to be of the same regional variety, while all people from the mainland are of another variety. Cretans and Ionian islanders are quite different from each other. The latter are closer to mainland Greece while Cretans are quite distinct from other Greeks (Feel free to have a look at the first age of this threat). After all, Crete has its own unique history as the island was the host of the Minoan civilization. While Cyprus was also colonized by Phoenicians alongside with Greeks and indigenous Neolithic Cypriot people. What does this have to do with Greeks from the Ionian Islands? If we are not ignorant to Greek history, it would only be expected that the Ionian islands tend to be closer to the Greek mainland, and Crete certainly would have some genetic difference compared to the mainland. While it is not strange at all that Cyprus will be different from Crete as well. So three Islands, three different subgroups.

Surely, ever since antiquity other forms of intermixture have had an impact to the Greek population. But I would like to stress that there is no unique genetic standard even in classical Greece. So we should not be to fast to point out that any genetic difference between two Greek groups shows one pure Greek and one mixed one. People have the tendency to do that.

Hmmm, did I ruin your romantic vision of Greek homogeneity?

 

[Dianatomia]

The "cruel" truth is that Greek mainlanders are genetically closer to Albanians than to Islanders.

The truth is that Tosk Albanians are very close to the Greeks and practically overlap with mainland Greece. In a similar way Tosk Albanians are closer to mainland Greeks than to Ghegh Albanians, who in their own respect are not too far off from other Albanians and Greeks in general. We can not draw conclusions from this. Or rather, I think you misrepresent this fact to make a claim that somehow mainland Greeks changed towards a certain direction. In fact, it is highly likely that what is today Albania may well have been genetically indistinguishable from mainland Greece already in antiquity. A somewhat different example, mainland Greeks plot closer to Italians from Tuscany than to Cretans and Cypriots. Do you suppose that mainland Greeks are Tuscans? Ofcourse not.

Hmmm, did I ruin your romantic vision of Greek homogeneity?

On the contrary. I am the one who suggested that given Greek history we can only assume that there must be some degree of heterogeneity in the Greek populace. I however argue that this was the case already in antiquity. You argue that this was not the case and that they shifted away from each other later on. Well, I respectfully disagree.

 

[blevins13]

The truth is that Tosk Albanians are very close to the Greeks and practically overlap with mainland Greece. In a similar way Tosk Albanians are closer to mainland Greeks than to Ghegh Albanians, who in their own respect are not too far off from other Albanians and Greeks in general. We can not draw conclusions from this. Or rather, I think you misrepresent this fact to make a claim that somehow mainland Greeks changed towards a certain direction. In fact, it is highly likely that what is today Albania may well have been genetically indistinguishable from mainland Greece already in antiquity. A somewhat different example, mainland Greeks plot closer to Italians from Tuscany than to Cretans and Cypriots. Do you suppose that mainland Greeks are Tuscans? Ofcourse not.




On the contrary. I am the one who suggested that given Greek history we can only assume that there must be some degree of heterogeneity in the Greek populace. I however argue that this was the case already in the antiquity. You argue that this was not the case and that they shifted away from each other later on. Well, I respectfully disagree.

So according to you the migration of Albanians towards Greece from 1200-1600 had no impact what so ever....https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Yetos]

The "cruel" truth is that Greek mainlanders are genetically closer to Albanians than to Islanders. Nothing unusual here, we can see similar phenomenon in Italy of islanders to be genetically different than mainlanders. By genetically different I don't mean from East Asia or Mars, but I can recognize who they are buy eyeballing the admixture numbers. I would have great difficulty to recognize Greek mainlander from Albanian though, just looking at numbers.

Did you check the tables and PCA distances?
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...mporary/page20?p=511457&viewfull=1#post511457


Hmmm, did I ruin your romantic vision of Greek homogeneity?

@ Lebrok

for centuries being hit by sea peoples (or we were?)
centuries occupied by Persians at East
1600 years under Roman occupation
200 years of North (Slav and others) raidings and devastation
700 years of Arab raiding and campaigns
How many Crusades? who knows?
400 years of Ottomans occupation
500 years of Latinocracy Francocracy Catalans Venicians Genouates

a Holocaust by Christians (Scythopolis) and centuries of ghost and witch hunt by church and executions with a simple accusasion Hellenes = pagans
(estimated more than 19 000 000 from Mediolanum treaty till even after Julian)

and still we are here

and you believe that we do not know who we are?
or you frightening us?

come on in Crimea they are still Greeks without being liberated the last 800 years


Besides we were never homogenous
our History say so
our Historians say so
some of us are Pelasgians
some of us are Minoans
some of us are Minyans
some of us are Myceneans
some of us are Achaioi
some of us are Graikoi
some of us are Iones
some of us Aeoleis
some of us are Dorians
some of us are Selloi
some of us are Makedonians
some of us are Brygians
and
some of us are half Anatolians
some of us are Half Aryan-Laz
some of us are half antique Italians
some of us are half Russians or Ukrainians
some of us are half Slavs
some of us are half Illyrians
some of us are half Tracians
some of us are half Dalmats
some of us are half Romans
some of us are half Gauls
some of us are half Germans
some of us are half Syrrians and Levant and Hebrew
some of us are half Iberians
so what?

do you think we do not know who we are?

we are the ones
'' ..... Τοις κεινων ρημασι πειθομενοι''
as written in Leonidas tomb stele

or the sons of
Minos Pelasgos Doros Achaios Xouthos etc etc
choose who you like?


my Friend
CAN YOU TELL ME ANOTHER NATION THAT RESIST OCCUPATION AND STILL ACHIEVES SO MANY YEARS?

our true enemy is one
ΜΗΔΙΖΕΙΝ (living in big luxury)
ΠΡΟΣΚΥΝΕΙΝ (learn to bent or kneel)


PS
if you are jeallous do not worry
you can be one of us,
only you have to do is accept Greek παιδεια (way of life),
and then start to think

 

[Sile]

This is not a rule per se. There are many island groups in Greece. The Ionian Islands (where the Ikarias belong to) for example are similar to mainland Greece genetically. At least far more than they are to the Eastern Islanders. The islanders which are more different compared to mainland Greece are the Dodecanesse and Cretans. But the (pre-) history of those islands compared to mainland Greece is not as similar as you might suggest.

Your mixed up..........Samos is part of the Dodecanese and not the Ionian island group