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Thread: New I2b map

  1. #76
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    The presence of 12b in the area between Ukraine and Romania/Moldova seems to be more compatible with the legacy of Bessarabia Germans who immigrated over there (mainly from South Germany) starting from 1814 up to 1842, reaching the number of 90.000 persons and more during the XX century.

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    Any data concerning the russian area inhabited by the Volga Germans? In the area a higher frequency of germanic haplogroups should be found.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apulomilan View Post
    The presence of 12b in the area between Ukraine and Romania/Moldova seems to be more compatible with the legacy of Bessarabia Germans who immigrated over there (mainly from South Germany) starting from 1814 up to 1842, reaching the number of 90.000 persons and more during the XX century.
    so, a population from a region poor enough concerning an HG could have developped this HG at high enough scale in a target region where its emigrants did never become dominent, an that at modern times?

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    Quote Originally Posted by apulomilan View Post
    Any data concerning the russian area inhabited by the Volga Germans? In the area a higher frequency of germanic haplogroups should be found.
    this term volgaGermans seems to be a new term as its only appeared recently, at best from what i gathered its basically a Bastarnae and Sarmatian mix of people.
    Can you supply any details of what these volgaGermans are?
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    to APULOMILAN

    sorry, I did a mistake, thinking we were speaking about Y-I2b = new I2a1b (as a whole the "DIN" one)!
    then, neither the origin region nor the "target" territory is full of Y-I2b, ex I1c, newly I2a2 and it temperates my remark - nevertheless, my remark, even concerning the righ HG, is still the same: a ~6-8% HG in the region of origin passing to 4-6% in the colonized region would require the colonizators would make ~50% of their new 'home' population: I find it very heavy! even taking in account only males -
    interesting to know about the 'Bessarabian Germans' nevertheless -thanks

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    just a remark (maybe I did it before?)
    the Maciamo maps (much thanks to him) are precious for hotspots and general concentration of some Hgs but they have the same defect as all maps: the question of limit: the change of colour is very impressive and we are tempted to consider as very different regions which are in two different colours: it recall me somebody here claiming today Welshmen had much more Y-G2a than other British: but in fact as a whole they have only 2,5% of it, which does not make Wales a "hotspot" of Y-G; but as they were in company of 5% other regions...
    an other defect of maps: we lack numerous enough detailed regional studies so I suppose Maciamo is obliged to "complete" poorly known regions by creating some gradual decreases or increases without more precise knowledge about them: (I think by instance in France where regional studies are very scarce)
    I'm sure it will improve when we have more better sampled small regions studied everywhere (it needs time) whan we can see the impact of valleys, mountain passes and natural obstacles, regional chiefferies a.s.o.
    I wait the coming maps of Maciamo! do not forget too History is running on and never stops even if founders events occurred more at ancient times than at modern times

    I agree too with the thought that some Y-I2a2 -L38 (I2b here!) rambled along with Y-R1b-U152 with late Celtic tribes: the distribution in Brittain fits well enough this story (E-England and Scotland by instance) - other subHG (SNPs) of these two Hgs were send there by Germanic people (Anglo-Saxons for the most but some Danish people too) because the remnants of Celts and Belgae involved at Iron Ages were surely partially inbodied as mergins people in these germanic following colonisations of the 5° centuries - for the other subgroup of I2a2 more centered around Denmark I reserve my opinion but the explanations of Maciamo could be right... I wait more data from some eastern and southern regions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    this term volgaGermans seems to be a new term as its only appeared recently, at best from what i gathered its basically a Bastarnae and Sarmatian mix of people.
    Can you supply any details of what these volgaGermans are?
    Sorry for my very late reply. I have not read the forum for long time due to hard work.

    I think that (starting from wiki) you have already found data regarding this population that migrated to southern Russia starting from 1762 on.

    I don't know yet from which part of Germany they mainly came from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    to APULOMILAN

    sorry, I did a mistake, thinking we were speaking about Y-I2b = new I2a1b (as a whole the "DIN" one)!
    then, neither the origin region nor the "target" territory is full of Y-I2b, ex I1c, newly I2a2 and it temperates my remark - nevertheless, my remark, even concerning the righ HG, is still the same: a ~6-8% HG in the region of origin passing to 4-6% in the colonized region would require the colonizators would make ~50% of their new 'home' population: I find it very heavy! even taking in account only males -
    interesting to know about the 'Bessarabian Germans' nevertheless -thanks
    I understand your remark.

    Yet it is to be explained how the area of concentration represented on the map could corrispond quite enterely to the zone hinabited by Bessarabian Germans.

    It can't be by a mere chance.

    After all your hipotetical conclusion according to which the colonizators were 50% of the new home population is not so odd, if you consider, one hand, the limitation of the area and, on the other hand, the historical fact that the colonizations usually is directed to scarcely inhabited areas: and the Czars used to "invite" -time to time- western populations just to "fill" poorly inhabited territories in their neverending realms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    this term volgaGermans seems to be a new term as its only appeared recently, at best from what i gathered its basically a Bastarnae and Sarmatian mix of people.
    Can you supply any details of what these volgaGermans are?
    Sorry for my very late reply. I have not read the forum for long time due to hard work.

    I think that (starting from wiki) you have already found data regarding this population that migrated to southern Russia starting from 1762 on.

    I don't know yet from which part of Germany they mainly came from.

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    The highest frequencies of I2b are in 1. Northeastern coastal Sweden 2. Central Germany, this says nothing about diversity though.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Certainly this haplogroup originally arrived from the Balkans/southeast Europe region towards it's highest frequency zone in Central Europe.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    That's what differentiates it from R haplogroup; it's hg I, it first arrived to Europe via the Balkans and southeastern Europe.From there, it would subsequently spread all across the Balkans (with a Bosnia Herzegovina I2a nucleus) to Scandinavia and to Sardinia in Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The hotspot in Germany is a very interesting one. It looks like it's Saxony-Anhalt or Thuringia. It would be very helpful if the resolution would be higher. Dienekes has a map in an article that discussed mtDNA distribution:

    dienekes.blogspot.se/2013/10/ancient-central-european-mtdna-across.html

    4.bp.blogspot.com/-bjpoHcWRUjk/Ulb1ky0aIsI/AAAAAAAAJL0/ymrp2bIA_K8/s1600/4events.jpg

    The map describes the movement of U4 and U5 from Sweden into Germany to a cultural area where the Baalberge and Salzmuende cultures existed. These mtDNA groups are, just like Ib2, related to the original hunter-gatherer population of Europe if I recall correctly. The area is also part of the Funnelbeaker culture area, which preceded and continued to the north-western part of the Corded Ware culture. Dutch archeologists consider the Funnelbeaker culture a continuation of previous cultures.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funnelbeaker_culture#Ethnicity_and_language

    According to the Germanic substrate hypothesis the Germanic language family contain a lot of words that have no indo-european origin, especially words related to war and ships. The idea is that Germanic peoples at least partly didn't originate from indo-european migrations. The Nordic bronze-age, which would give birth to Germanic cultures, left a large amount of petroglyphs of whih images of boats form a large part. The Ib2 hotspot in Germany also roughly coincides with the area in which Roman authors placed the Suevian tribes: Semnones, Longobardes, Hermanduri, Varni, Suerines. The tribes which were called Suevian vary by each author. However, the core area of the Suevian tribes is near eastern Germany. Oddly enough the first expansion of the Nordic bronze-age culture in the iron-age, a culture called Jastorf cukture, also is in this area.

    Would this haplogroup have a relation with this, in it being another mixed culture of indo-europeans and original hunter-gatherers? There seems strong genetic evidence that the spread of agriculture from the Middle-east was due to migrations. However, there is also archeological evidence - see link of Funnelbeaker culture - of adaptation in North-West of Europe. The Funnelbeaker culture - or part of the area it was found - might very well be a mixed population or even hunter-gatherers slowly adapting to agriculture. The Dutch Swifterband, which was a mesolithic culture related to the Ertebølle culture, is considered ancestral to the Funnelbeaker culture.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swifterbant_culture

    The spread of Suevians is considered to be related to the spread of the High German language. Tacitus even called the Angles Suevian. The Warns and part of the Angles moved south to form Thuringians. The Lex Thuringorum actually was called Lex Angliorum et Werinorum hoc est Thuringorum. Suevians took part of the forming of the Allamanes and current Schwabia (Switzerland and in the south west of Germany) during the peoples movements of the dark ages, both areas with elevated I2a2 levels. However, a small part remained in the lands, which were settled mostly by Elbe-slavs after the Suevians left. That area was called Suevengau or Schwabengau in the early middle-ages. It was, again roughly, at this hotspot. The duchy of Anhalt originated from it.

    During the middle ages the area where the Elbe-slavs settled was then settled by Saxon immigrants, that spoke low German dialects. However, the area neighbouring Anhalt in the Harz is a High German language island (Upper Harz dialect). The name Anhalt itself also is High German.
    Last edited by epoch; 16-10-13 at 20:11. Reason: Clarified, elaborated, fixed some mistakes and added links.

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    I believe time of migrations have the most to tell us about the people in question. When we know the date of a settlement then we can tell who the people are.
    A minority in a majority can be either very old population or a very new, all depending on time.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It's the map of I-M223? Few other information for southern Italy: hotspot in Cosenza 6,67% (3 samples), 2,94% in Trapani, 2,22% in Agrigento and 1,92 in Catania. Not founded in Lecce, Matera, Ragusa and Enna in Sarno et al.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    It's the map of I-M223? Few other information for southern Italy: hotspot in Cosenza 6,67% (3 samples), 2,94% in Trapani, 2,22% in Agrigento and 1,92 in Catania. Not founded in Lecce, Matera, Ragusa and Enna in Sarno et al.
    thanks - if you have some new local %s about Italy, I (and we?) would be very glad to read them -
    buona notte

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    Quote Originally Posted by apulomilan View Post
    Sorry for my very late reply. I have not read the forum for long time due to hard work.

    I think that (starting from wiki) you have already found data regarding this population that migrated to southern Russia starting from 1762 on.

    I don't know yet from which part of Germany they mainly came from.
    My family came from the Südwestpfalz and moved to Moldova in 1806 then to the Midwest USA in late 1870.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have finally got round to creating a map of I2b. The frequencies being low in most of Europe I had to use a very fine scale, with gradient of 2% at a time. Sadly there isn't any extensive study of German and Swedish regions, so the extend of the two hotspots of I2b is far from accurate.

    In Belgium, let's note that Wallonia has 7% of I2b, considerably more than the 4.5% in Flanders. It's strange since Flanders is supposed to be more Germanic, and the percentage of I1 doesn't vary much between the two regions (12% in Flanders and 11% in Wallonia).




    There are many theories concerning the presence of I2b in Russia, Ukraine and Moldova.

    1) They are remnants of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers.

    2) I2b was part of the Indo-European haplogroups, and some pockets have survived around the Pontic-Caspian steppes.

    3) The (Swedish) Vikings brought I2b to Russia, and the Ostrogoths to Moldova (Chernyakhov culture, which corresponds to the Gothic kingdom of Oium).

    Personally I think that the third theory is the most likely. As for the I2b in around Greece, Albania, Bulgaria and northern Turkey, they must have been brought by the Visigoths at the end of the 4th century. The Visigoths would also explain I2b in Italy, south-east France and Iberia. Note that these regions all have a fairly proportional level of I1 too. Obviously the Suebi are responsible for the I1 and I2b (and R1b-U106 and R1a) in Galicia and Portugal, and the Normans for the same Germanic package in north-west Sicily.
    With 6 new I-M223 ancient dna 4 Hungary 1in russia and 1 in spain is changing origin and movements I will go with option 4 mesolithic and early neolithic in the Hungarian Plain. One in Spain and the one in Russia is equal distance to the ones in Hungary. Making Hungary I M223 is epicenter. I M223 moved Northwest Europe with your option 2 with the indo - europeans during the Bronze Age. Then with option 3 in the iron age to viking age.
    Last edited by Jason Neuharth; 27-06-15 at 06:20.

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    Vučedol Hungary Lánycsók, Csata-alja [M6-116.10] 2860-2620 BC I2a2a M223+ H5
    this makes 5 M223 for Ancient Y-DNA for Hungary.

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    The swathe from East Anglia (Norfolk, Suffolk) in England through the East and North Midlands to Lancashire is something I'm interested in. Has anyone any idea of what this might mean? Any historical event(s) that fits with this pattern? Any ideas?

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    I just found out I belong to this haplogroup! What a surprise, I never thought I could descend from the cave man! I had a feeling that I could belong to J2 haplogroup. South Albania has as much as 6% of its population belong to this haplogroup. I don't think this is Germanic, its local, from prehistory. There is also 11% I1 in south Albania which I think is Gothic, and another 11% of Slavic origin, comprising a total of 26% in a sample of 182 people, from south. The sample continues to rise by the day and we are getting a better picture of Albanian y DNA. People have a site where they post their DNA taken by different companies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    I just found out I belong to this haplogroup! What a surprise, I never thought I could descend from the cave man! I had a feeling that I could belong to J2 haplogroup. South Albania has as much as 6% of its population belong to this haplogroup. I don't think this is Germanic, its local, from prehistory. There is also 11% I1 in south Albania which I think is Gothic, and another 11% of Slavic origin, comprising a total of 26% in a sample of 182 people, from south. The sample continues to rise by the day and we are getting a better picture of Albanian y DNA. People have a site where they post their DNA taken by different companies.
    It is strange that you are an Albanian with the surname Arnaut. It's like an Englishman having the surname English or a German having the surname Deutsch. Apparently some paternal ancestor of yours lived outside Albania or outside Albanian -speaking regions and was called Arnaut (e.g. in Istanbul) and then either he or one of his descendants returned to Albania.

    I am Greek with origin from Thessaly on my father's side and I am also I-M223. My subclade is I-L701. I wonder what yours is.

    Actually from a Google search of mine, there are I-L701 people reported in Albania, North Macedonia, among Serbs of Kosovo, and in Greece.

    However, I-L701 may not be sufficient to understand the migratory paths and more detailed tests may be necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pan View Post
    It is strange that you are an Albanian with the surname Arnaut. It's like an Englishman having the surname English or a German having the surname Deutsch. Apparently some paternal ancestor of yours lived outside Albania or outside Albanian -speaking regions and was called Arnaut (e.g. in Istanbul) and then either he or one of his descendants returned to Albania.

    I am Greek with origin from Thessaly on my father's side and I am also I-M223. My subclade is I-L701. I wonder what yours is.

    Actually from a Google search of mine, there are I-L701 people reported in Albania, North Macedonia, among Serbs of Kosovo, and in Greece.

    However, I-L701 may not be sufficient to understand the migratory paths and more detailed tests may be necessary.
    Mine:I2 m223>L701>S25733>A427. So basically we have a distant link in our fathers side. According to Eupedia my link is suppose to be Germanic or North Slavic. Both possible. Or could be local. All what I have seen in Albania are all the same.(about 13 people) in a sample of 230 people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pan View Post
    It is strange that you are an Albanian with the surname Arnaut. It's like an Englishman having the surname English or a German having the surname Deutsch. Apparently some paternal ancestor of yours lived outside Albania or outside Albanian -speaking regions and was called Arnaut (e.g. in Istanbul) and then either he or one of his descendants returned to Albania.

    I am Greek with origin from Thessaly on my father's side and I am also I-M223. My subclade is I-L701. I wonder what yours is.

    Actually from a Google search of mine, there are I-L701 people reported in Albania, North Macedonia, among Serbs of Kosovo, and in Greece.

    However, I-L701 may not be sufficient to understand the migratory paths and more detailed tests may be necessary.
    It seems that my linage is Gothic. The closest matches are in Germany, then in England. Very rare in Albania. So far in a sample of 659 people no other matches in Albania. The name in avatar is not real

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post
    It seems that my linage is Gothic. The closest matches are in Germany, then in England. Very rare in Albania. So far in a sample of 659 people no other matches in Albania. The name in avatar is not real
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...NA.shtml#I2a2a

    Why is you subclade, L801, not on Eupedia's page?

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