Scots, how Celtic are they?

[Wilhelm]

SW Scots is an interesting choice for a sample, and could help us understand the admixture we expect from Brythonic populations, as SW Scotland is the traditionally Brythonic bit. Not surprisingly, they seem to be closest to the (also Brythonic) Cornish using this dataset (are you using a different one, Wilhelm?):

Southeast Baltic/Northern European/North Atlantic/East or North Eurasian/Sub-Saharan African/Southern European/Western European
Irish: 2/27/52/0/0/1/18
SW Scots: 4/30/48/0/0/0/17
Cornish: 2/29/48/0/0/4/17
Kentish: 4/40/35/0/0/5/16
Dutch: 5/45/29/0/0/10/10

I was using the latest EU7c, yours is EU7b, but anyways the patterns are pretty much the same.

[barbarian]

Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T)

is G2a middle eastern or caucasian?

[Taranis]

is G2a middle eastern or caucasian?

"Middle Eastern" is such a foggy term in my opinion. G2a probably originated in either Anatolia or the Caucasus, however. It's clear though that it did not originate in the Fertile Crescent or the Levante.

[DavidCoutts]

You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project. It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.

There are about 9% of Germanic haplogroup I1. The rest is less clear. Most of the R1a (8.5%) and I2b (4%) is probably Germanic too, although some of it might be Celtic. Haplogroup Q (0.5%) is surely of Scandinavian origin.

R1b is mixed Celtic and Germanic. Here is a small analysis.

Not all R1b members tested for subclades, but among those who did I counted 66 Germanic R1b1a2a1a1a, aka R1b-U106 (12.5%) and 470 predominantly Celtic R1b1a2a1a1b (87.5%). The latter includes :

- 60 Irish-Scottish R1b-M222 (12%)
- 31 purely Scottish R1b-S68 (6%)
- 31 Italo-Gaulish R1b-U152 (6%)
- 11 mostly Franco-Iberian R1b-SRY2627 (2%)

The others are undefined. There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

Within R1b, 12.5% is Germanic R1b-U106 and 12.5% is Germanic R1b-L21. One fourth of R1b is Germanic, and three fourth Celtic. As 72.5% of Scots are R1b, it means that about 18% of all Scottish haplogroups are Germanic R1b.

The total for Germanic lineages (I1, I2b, Q, R1a and Germanic R1b) is therefore about 40%.

Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T), which account for 4.5% of Scottish lineages, might have come to Britain during the Neolithic, or through continental Celts, Romans and Germanic tribes. It's probably a bit of everything, though nobody knows in which proportion. Let's say that 2.5% is of Germanic origin to keep the proportions with average haplogroup frequencies in the Netherlands and Norway, the source countries of the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings in Scotland.

This gives us 42.5% of lineages of Germanic origin. The rest (57.5%) can be considered Celtic.

My bold. So if one is an L21+ Scot, is there anyway to determine whether one's Y-DNA is Germanic or Celt?

[Knovas]

The best option is to participate in admixture projects. As somebody noted above, Eurogenes gives a good idea about the Celtic background taking the North Atlantic cluster as reference.

It's the best you can do, since we can't know who was the first ancestor reflected in the Y-DNA marker (going back thousands of years ago).

[DavidCoutts]

Eurogenes -forgive my ignorance, but is that a company like 23andMe or FTDNA?

[Knovas]

No, it's a genetic project managed by Davidski (Polish). He uses the raw data provided, for example, at 23andme, and interprets your allele frequencies into different clusters. The same as Dodecad.

Here is the blog where the results appear (different analyses): http://bga101.blogspot.com/

[tjlowery87]

so scotlands is more Germanic than England???????????

[tjlowery87]

Scotland r1b u106 is 12% its 20% in England.i1 is 15 % in England and 9% scotland

[adamo]

I1 is Nordic/Scandinav not Germanic. R-S21 is Celtic of the Germanic variety; English, Germans, Austrians, Danes ; they're all more Germanic than the scots and certainly much more than the Irish. Now to answer the original question, how Celtic are the Scottish people, the answer is VERY Celtic, as their R1b percentages are about 75% if I'm not mistaken.

[sparkey]

I1 is Nordic/Scandinav not Germanic.

What makes you think that? Especially in the context of Britain, there's a lot more continuity between most local I1 and continental I1 than there is with Scandinavian I1 (with the exception of genetic outliers like Orkney).

R-S21 is Celtic of the Germanic variety

What does this even mean?

[tjlowery87]

sparkey,what do you think the difference is in the Germanic dna between scotland and England?

[sparkey]

sparkey,what do you think the difference is in the Germanic dna between scotland and England?

One of the most detectable differences between Celtic and Germanic populations are their relative I1 frequencies (much higher in Germanic populations). So, taking the I1 ratio between the constituent countries should give us a pretty good idea of their relative Germanic input. For England : Scotland : Wales, we end up with something like a 6 : 4 : 3 ratio, so England is about 1.5 times as Germanic as Scotland, and about twice as Germanic as Wales. Of course, there are complexities. Scotland may be overstated there because it presumably has a higher North Germanic to West Germanic ratio, and North Germanic peoples have a higher internal I1 ratio. Wales may also be overstated there because they have a unique, apparently non-Germanic I1 subclade. But it's still probably a decent estimate.

[tjlowery87]

thank you sparkey

[adamo]

Most frequently I1 indicates Viking presence. What does what I said even mean? R-S21 is part of the indo-European family (R1a,R1b) inside the indo-European family there is a group called Celtic, and inside the Celtic group there are Italo-celts and Germanics. R-S21 is found in Germanic countries (Germany,Austria,Denmark,England) where these people migrated.

[adamo]

The movements of I1a and R-S21 people's for most of history were independent of each other; two different branches with ultimately different origins.

[MOESAN]

[QUOTE=Maciamo;376871]You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project. It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.


There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

sorry, Maciamo: maybe this post of yours is old now and I'm late, but where did you pick that R-L21 was found in the same proportions in the Netherlands and Scandinavia than R-U106!?!

[MOESAN]

Western Scotland was invaded by the Gaels in the Vth century. A people from Ireland who spoke a Q-Celtic language (Gaelic) while the previous people of Scotland (the Picts) spoke a P-Celtic language like others Brittons and like some continental celts (Gaulish, lepontic...).
Most Scottish men carry the haplogroup R1b (Proto-celt), especially its subclade R1b L21 (like most Irish men)
Eastern Scotland, the area that was the least settled by the Gaels, shows the highest frequencies in GB of R1b U152 (Alpine and gallic celts) and has significant rates of R1b U106 (Germanic). It is not easy to know wether those two subclades of R1b predate or not the Germanic invasions (Angles...).
Indeed, Scotland got several genetic influx since the early middle ages, bringing germanic haplogroup such as I1, I2a2 (old I2b), R1a (not just germanic but present in Scandinavia) and R1b U106.
During the germanic invasions, the Angles settled in Southern Scotland, that's why Scottish language is very close to the English one.
Later the Vikings from Norway settled in the North, South west and in the islands (Shetlands, Orkney).
So Scotland is mostly celtic but with strong germanic areas (Lowlands, North, Orkney, Shetlands).

you are right - just details: SW Scotland previously inhabited was gaelicized enough and gaelic was yet spoken in some part of Galloway about the 18°C and even 19°C.. if my readings are right - before the population spoke cumbrian, close to welsh as you know -
Angles took the SE Scotland - today Lowlands/Lallands are inhabited (except the Lothians around Edinburgh, more akin to the central and eastern "angle" Borders) by a mix where Celts and pre-Celts have far more important imput than Germanics as a whole: very close to the Black Country West to Midlands of Birmignham, where Celts too played a big role in population (Welshes, ancient and new coming back!)- it is true too that English "emigrants" come rather to Edinburgh when Irish workers came rather around Glasgow, reinforcing effects of the Past -

[MOESAN]

Most frequently I1 indicates Viking presence. What does what I said even mean? R-S21 is part of the indo-European family (R1a,R1b) inside the indo-European family there is a group called Celtic, and inside the Celtic group there are Italo-celts and Germanics. R-S21 is found in Germanic countries (Germany,Austria,Denmark,England) where these people migrated.

it seems intuitively evident Adamo, but things are a bit more complicated (sometimes, by chance, not always!!!): by example, Y-I1 is very strong in Angles and Saxons areas of Eastern England (about 25 to 33%) and far less important in Scotland where Vikings take foot as we know by a lot of historical, genetical, cultural data): but it seems that in some british lands taken by Vikings, thses last ones where the result of a drift pulling down the Y-I1 % in favour of Y-R1a and even Y-Q (surveys about the Presqu'Isle in front of Liverpool (Orrell?); even in Scotland the history of Viking settlements is diverse, big differences between Hebrides and Orcades-Shetland and Caithness (male domination with high Y-I1 in Hebrides, poor viking females impact, more females impact in Orkney/Shetlands but less males impact...)

[tjlowery87]

Does anyone what the percentage is of i1 and r1bu106 in eastern part of England??

[Jackson]

Does anyone what the percentage is of i1 and r1bu106 in eastern part of England??

I think U106 is around 25% or so, and I1 is about 15-20% on average, with some local spikes ( for example around 25-30% in Fakenham - 33% of I in total, but the majority of that is likely I1).

[Jackson]

you are right - just details: SW Scotland previously inhabited was gaelicized enough and gaelic was yet spoken in some part of Galloway about the 18°C and even 19°C.. if my readings are right - before the population spoke cumbrian, close to welsh as you know -
Angles took the SE Scotland - today Lowlands/Lallands are inhabited (except the Lothians around Edinburgh, more akin to the central and eastern "angle" Borders) by a mix where Celts and pre-Celts have far more important imput than Germanics as a whole: very close to the Black Country West to Midlands of Birmignham, where Celts too played a big role in population (Welshes, ancient and new coming back!)- it is true too that English "emigrants" come rather to Edinburgh when Irish workers came rather around Glasgow, reinforcing effects of the Past -

It looks like R1b-L21 is around 20-25% along many parts of the Welsh borders, only about 10% higher than it is in the rest of central and south-east, eastern England, the English-Welsh border regions would seem to be quite a substantial barrier, even though they have changed a lot over the centuries:

[tjlowery87]

I think U106 is around 25% or so, and I1 is about 15-20% on average, with some local spikes ( for example around 25-30% in Fakenham - 33% of I in total, but the majority of that is likely I1).

is this for England as a whole or for the east of England?

[Jackson]

is this for England as a whole or for the east of England?

The east, but it's not much lower in other areas, the average for the country is around 15%, so many western areas are probably 10-15% I1 and about 15-20% R1b-U106.

[MOESAN]

It looks like R1b-L21 is around 20-25% along many parts of the Welsh borders, only about 10% higher than it is in the rest of central and south-east, eastern England, the English-Welsh border regions would seem to be quite a substantial barrier, even though they have changed a lot over the centuries:

your absolutely right here - but for Lowlands and Black Country I was just speaking about populations weights in general: autosomals - yet there are big enough differences between West England and East England for males genes, but too, seemingly, East England received more germanic females imput than West England where the germanic imput seems more males transmitted - it is to be checked, it 's true! in Llanidloes central eastern Wales we have apparently a good example of male Angle or Saxon strong imput far in West, when the global autosomals situation surely does not show so high levels of germanic autosomals (is it an hazard if, even in a very local countryside welsh language had been left when welsh was still spoken not long ago in Oswestry?
by the way, should you be kind enough to communicate us the percentages this map is founded upon? (absolute or relative %s and so on...)
thanks beforehand
&: and a smaller taste of L21 can conceal a stronger proportion of Y-R1b of other sorts without being itself of "germanic" origin as U106...