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Thread: Scots, how Celtic are they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    your absolutely right here - but for Lowlands and Black Country I was just speaking about populations weights in general: autosomals - yet there are big enough differences between West England and East England for males genes, but too, seemingly, East England received more germanic females imput than West England where the germanic imput seems more males transmitted - it is to be checked, it 's true! in Llanidloes central eastern Wales we have apparently a good example of male Angle or Saxon strong imput far in West, when the global autosomals situation surely does not show so high levels of germanic autosomals (is it an hazard if, even in a very local countryside welsh language had been left when welsh was still spoken not long ago in Oswestry?
    by the way, should you be kind enough to communicate us the percentages this map is founded upon? (absolute or relative %s and so on...)
    thanks beforehand
    &: and a smaller taste of L21 can conceal a stronger proportion of Y-R1b of other sorts without being itself of "germanic" origin as U106...
    It was apparently from a Welsh tv program, in which they tested people both sides of the border, i do not have the name of this tv program, but i will look for it soon. I would expect it to be at least a reasonably reliable source given that it's being shown on TV, if i can find the academics behind it i will.

    Ahh yeah if you are talking about autosomal dna i agree. I guess it makes sense that the female 'imports' would be mostly apparent in the areas of primary settlement and regions that were Anglo-Saxon during the period over which this migration took place. And the men may have moved a bit more during the secondary phase where the west was conquered/colonized from the eastern territories rather than directly from abroad.

    Although the 'big red blob' in POBI does extent to an area close to the Welsh borders, these regions that are about 20-25% in L21 look to correspond with areas in which the genetic cluster is between the big red cluster and the Welsh clusters. There was a fair bit of Welsh settlement in these parts of England in the medieval period and also the border was very fluid for a long time, so it's not surprising that this area is an intermediary between the Welsh and central England.

    It's certainly true in my family, my grandmother is noticeably more western than the rest of my family, and about half of her ancestry is from western areas of England (Cheshire and Devon).
    'Wise men speak only of what they know' - J.R.R. Tolkien

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    The east, but it's not much lower in other areas, the average for the country is around 15%, so many western areas are probably 10-15% I1 and about 15-20% R1b-U106.
    what is 15%?togethers they equal 35% in England not counting any thing else.

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    Being extreme west Europeans, it is no surprise that the scots are among the most Celtic people's culturally and genetically. R1b is present at 70-80% average around here and this is tremendous genetic proof of this. Other extremely Celtic nations are Ireland (85-90%) R1b, Wales (80-85%), England (75-80%), Spain (65-75%), France (60-70%), Belgium (65%), holland (65%), Portugal (60%), Switzerland (50%), Germany and Italy have similar frequencies to Switzerland as well. Frequencies drop to 25-30% towards the extreme north (Norway,Sweden) (not present in Finland) in southern Italy and towards eastern Germany on the polish border. In Austria, for example, a country with Germanic history, R1b can still be found at 30-40%; same for the Czech Republic. Croatia though only has 15%; same for Greece, Poland, Romania, Hungary (15-20%), it's found in less Serbs and Russians or Finns (5-10%). Unlike most people's beliefs about 2/5 Danes are R1b positive (35-40%).

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    r1b-u106 is 20% in England.......its not celtic

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    Anything R1b is Celtic; R1b-U106 is the Germanic branch of R1b.

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    So if we want to analyze the British isles R1b samples for example; we find a mix of Germanic (R-S21) and Italo-Celtic (P312) R1b; with England having the highest Germanic component and the Irish having the most L-21 derived lineages (the youngest of the Italo-Celtic branch).

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    I've always believed the older Germanics occupied/expanded from the Germany/holland/austria (u-106 is much younger there) central continental European Germanic celts. Whereas the Italo-celtic subclades initially expanded from northern Spain/ southern France towards Spain,France,north Italy, Ireland etc.

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    The Italo-Celtic strain used Iberia as an initial expansion point (Cantabrian refuge); the Germanics may have too for all I know but the Italo-celts certainly did.

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    r1b df19 and r1bl238 are believe to come to the isles with Germanic as well

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Anything R1b is Celtic; R1b-U106 is the Germanic branch of R1b.
    That is a contradiction and also a broad, inccorect statement.
    And R1b extends over many areas that were not Celtic, and some Celtic areas in what is now eastern Europe have relatively little R1b. And of course i doubt the R1b in Africa is Celtic.

    I thought we'd moved away from the R1b = Celtic thinking. And you must also acknowledge that there are significant variations between the types of R1b carried by Celtic speaking groups, and often overlap between other areas that are culturally and linguistically different.

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    im thinking englands around 40% Germanic......that's why I don't really think Scotland is 42% germanic

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    im thinking englands around 40% Germanic......that's why I don't really think Scotland is 42% germanic
    If you include the whole of England, although the core south-east, east and central are around 55% on average.

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    was the Scottish lowlands part of England at one point??

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    was the Scottish lowlands part of England at one point??
    Some of it yeah, and many settled in the lowlands further north at a later point too.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Only the Dutch have 35-40% R-S21; Germans have 20-30% and English have 20%. Austrians have 25% and Danes have slightly less than 20% (17%). Czechs have about 15%.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Only the Dutch have 35-40% R-S21; Germans have 20-30% and English have 20%. Austrians have 25% and Danes have slightly less than 20% (17%). Czechs have about 15%.
    Yep, although it varies by region in all case, i don't know much about the variation in the Netherlands other than it goes up to 42% in Frisia and is also pretty high in the south too. In central England it's about 19%, and about 25-26% in the east and south-east. This fits with the idea that much of East Anglia and Kent had a fair representation of Frisians (their local customs and farming practices show a lot of similarity with Frisian customs in particular, more-so than other areas).

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    I agree; good analysis.

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    just at regional level, I picked some surveys results I "stole" in other forums I think: scarce enough samples helas! (all about 80 I believe)
    Y-R1b-U106:
    North England 25,0% -- North-West England 21,3% -- Central England a) 18,2% <> b) 24,0% (mean about 21%?) -- East-England 25,6% -- East-Anglia (C-S-E!) 29,1% -- South-East/Kent 26,39% --
    South-West England a) 25,0% <> b) 24,0% (in reality more Central South-West than very SW)
    compared to other regions
    North-West Scotland 6,3% South West Scotland 9,5% North-East Scotland 6,3%
    North Wales 9,2%
    North Ireland 14,3% (surely mostly Protestant part) -- North-West Ireland 4,2% -- West Ireland a) 0,0%! <> b) 4,5% -- South Ireland 3,4% -- South-West Ireland 4,5% -- South-East Ireland 8,3% (less dark region, with a lot of Norman and anglo-saxon names if I don't mistake) -- East Ireland (and Dublin?) a) 0,0! <> b) 4,0% surprising!
    leaven the scarce samples, what amazes me is the low level of S21 in N-E SCotland where Y-R1b-L21 (52,2%) and Y-R1b-U152 (19,4%) are respectively high enough...
    as a whole Scotland does not seem too germanic, and the germanic element in N-E and N, N-W seems "male viking" - only S-E (East Borders, Lothians) could show highest continental germanic HGs, I suppose - but larger samples and more regions would be very wellcome -
    &: I don't exclude Belgae tribes send some rare Y-R1b U106 elements -

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    20% u-152 in north-east Scotland??? Are you sure? I know southern England can have 10-20% u-152 but wow I didn't know that; must be a particular spot in Scotland cause u-152 is generally rare on the British isles.

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    I repeat here and again Y-R1b-U152-S28 in Brittain is due more to Celts than ot any other elements - it is evident when comparing the U152 %s among continental or not continental Germanics to U106 and Y-I1 %s - I don't exclude a Roman imput but very very light for me (the roman armies were constituted by a lot of different regions legioneers and even TRUE Romans were not pure Italics)

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Only the Dutch have 35-40% R-S21; Germans have 20-30% and English have 20%. Austrians have 25% and Danes have slightly less than 20% (17%). Czechs have about 15%.
    when I was talking about England 40%germanic,i was including i1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I repeat here and again Y-R1b-U152-S28 in Brittain is due more to Celts than ot any other elements - it is evident when comparing the U152 %s among continental or not continental Germanics to U106 and Y-I1 %s - I don't exclude a Roman imput but very very light for me (the roman armies were constituted by a lot of different regions legioneers and even TRUE Romans were not pure Italics)
    Yeah i agree with that. The only possibly Germanic origin for any amount of U152 would be the Salian Franks. While Kent shows strong affinities with the Franks, it also was an area of settlement for Belgic tribes and lies opposite an area of high U152 on the continent. So i would bet that most - but probably not all - U152 is from Belgic/Gaulish sources. Romans are a possibility, but like you say the Romans that were stationed here were fairly diverse.

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    From what I read and seen recently, the Scots where the last to become Celtic.
    history says all Scotland was pictland, then after the romans left Britain, the gaels from Ireland landed and established a homeland in western Scotland, eventually the Gaels and picts united around 950AD and it was then that the term Scot was born.
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    so the Germanic vs celtic dna in England and lowlands is bascically like Bavaria?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjlowery87 View Post
    so the Germanic vs celtic dna in England and lowlands is bascically like Bavaria?
    For the Bavarian (Bairische/Bajuwarische) areas;

    Rebala et al 2013 -
    http://bhusers.upf.edu/dcomas/wp-con...Rebala2013.pdf
    Bavaria (218 samples):
    I-M253 = 16.9% / R1b-U106 = 21.1% / R1a-M17 = 12.3%
    R1b-U152 = 10.0% / R1b-L21 = 1.3% / R1b-SRY2627 = 0.9%
    R1b-P312* = 6.8%

    Niederstätter et al 2012 -
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...e.0041885.s013
    East Tyrol (270 samples):
    I-M253 = 15.9% / R1b-U106 = 18.8% / R1a-M17 = 14.0%
    R1b-U152 = 12.5% / R1b-P312* = 2.9%

    Erhart
    et al 2012 -
    http://link.springer.com/article/10....0751-1?LI=true
    Tyrol REUTTE District (261 samples):
    I-M253 = 10.5% / R1b-U106 = 20.9% / R1a-M17 = 7.8%
    R1b-U152 = 12.4% / R1b-M269* = 13.6%

    The only substantial Keltic lineage in the Bavarian (Bajuwarische/Bairische) areas is R1b-U152 and that at ~10-12% with the Germanic lineage of R1b-U106 being ~20%; I would like to see some data that compares Bavaria (Franconia) north of the Danube with Bavaria (Schwaben/Altbayern/Regensburg) south of the Danube;

    It also depends on who exactly the the Germanic Bajuwaren were; Most Germanic peoples of the Migration era were in fact a confederation of numerous remnant tribes of the given areas;

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