Scots, how Celtic are they?

im thinking englands around 40% Germanic......that's why I don't really think Scotland is 42% germanic
 
im thinking englands around 40% Germanic......that's why I don't really think Scotland is 42% germanic

If you include the whole of England, although the core south-east, east and central are around 55% on average.
 
was the Scottish lowlands part of England at one point??
 
was the Scottish lowlands part of England at one point??

Some of it yeah, and many settled in the lowlands further north at a later point too.
 
Only the Dutch have 35-40% R-S21; Germans have 20-30% and English have 20%. Austrians have 25% and Danes have slightly less than 20% (17%). Czechs have about 15%.
 
Only the Dutch have 35-40% R-S21; Germans have 20-30% and English have 20%. Austrians have 25% and Danes have slightly less than 20% (17%). Czechs have about 15%.

Yep, although it varies by region in all case, i don't know much about the variation in the Netherlands other than it goes up to 42% in Frisia and is also pretty high in the south too. In central England it's about 19%, and about 25-26% in the east and south-east. This fits with the idea that much of East Anglia and Kent had a fair representation of Frisians (their local customs and farming practices show a lot of similarity with Frisian customs in particular, more-so than other areas).
 
I agree; good analysis.
 
just at regional level, I picked some surveys results I "stole" in other forums I think: scarce enough samples helas! (all about 80 I believe)
Y-R1b-U106:
North England 25,0% -- North-West England 21,3% -- Central England a) 18,2% <> b) 24,0% (mean about 21%?) -- East-England 25,6% -- East-Anglia (C-S-E!) 29,1% -- South-East/Kent 26,39% --
South-West England a) 25,0% <> b) 24,0% (in reality more Central South-West than very SW)
compared to other regions
North-West Scotland 6,3% South West Scotland 9,5% North-East Scotland 6,3%
North Wales 9,2%
North Ireland 14,3% (surely mostly Protestant part) -- North-West Ireland 4,2% -- West Ireland a) 0,0%! <> b) 4,5% -- South Ireland 3,4% -- South-West Ireland 4,5% -- South-East Ireland 8,3% (less dark region, with a lot of Norman and anglo-saxon names if I don't mistake) -- East Ireland (and Dublin?) a) 0,0! <> b) 4,0% surprising!
leaven the scarce samples, what amazes me is the low level of S21 in N-E SCotland where Y-R1b-L21 (52,2%) and Y-R1b-U152 (19,4%) are respectively high enough...
as a whole Scotland does not seem too germanic, and the germanic element in N-E and N, N-W seems "male viking" - only S-E (East Borders, Lothians) could show highest continental germanic HGs, I suppose - but larger samples and more regions would be very wellcome -
&: I don't exclude Belgae tribes send some rare Y-R1b U106 elements -
 
20% u-152 in north-east Scotland??? Are you sure? I know southern England can have 10-20% u-152 but wow I didn't know that; must be a particular spot in Scotland cause u-152 is generally rare on the British isles.
 
I repeat here and again Y-R1b-U152-S28 in Brittain is due more to Celts than ot any other elements - it is evident when comparing the U152 %s among continental or not continental Germanics to U106 and Y-I1 %s - I don't exclude a Roman imput but very very light for me (the roman armies were constituted by a lot of different regions legioneers and even TRUE Romans were not pure Italics)
 
Only the Dutch have 35-40% R-S21; Germans have 20-30% and English have 20%. Austrians have 25% and Danes have slightly less than 20% (17%). Czechs have about 15%.
when I was talking about England 40%germanic,i was including i1.
 
I repeat here and again Y-R1b-U152-S28 in Brittain is due more to Celts than ot any other elements - it is evident when comparing the U152 %s among continental or not continental Germanics to U106 and Y-I1 %s - I don't exclude a Roman imput but very very light for me (the roman armies were constituted by a lot of different regions legioneers and even TRUE Romans were not pure Italics)

Yeah i agree with that. The only possibly Germanic origin for any amount of U152 would be the Salian Franks. While Kent shows strong affinities with the Franks, it also was an area of settlement for Belgic tribes and lies opposite an area of high U152 on the continent. So i would bet that most - but probably not all - U152 is from Belgic/Gaulish sources. Romans are a possibility, but like you say the Romans that were stationed here were fairly diverse.
 
From what I read and seen recently, the Scots where the last to become Celtic.
history says all Scotland was pictland, then after the romans left Britain, the gaels from Ireland landed and established a homeland in western Scotland, eventually the Gaels and picts united around 950AD and it was then that the term Scot was born.
 
so the Germanic vs celtic dna in England and lowlands is bascically like Bavaria?
 
so the Germanic vs celtic dna in England and lowlands is bascically like Bavaria?

For the Bavarian (Bairische/Bajuwarische) areas;

Rebala et al 2013 -
http://bhusers.upf.edu/dcomas/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Rebala2013.pdf
Bavaria (218 samples):
I-M253 = 16.9% / R1b-U106 = 21.1% / R1a-M17 = 12.3%
R1b-U152 = 10.0% / R1b-L21 = 1.3% / R1b-SRY2627 = 0.9%
R1b-P312* = 6.8%

Niederstätter et al 2012 -
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0041885#pone.0041885.s013
East Tyrol (270 samples):
I-M253 = 15.9% / R1b-U106 = 18.8% / R1a-M17 = 14.0%
R1b-U152 = 12.5% / R1b-P312* = 2.9%

Erhart
et al 2012 -
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00414-012-0751-1?LI=true
Tyrol REUTTE District (261 samples):
I-M253 = 10.5% / R1b-U106 = 20.9% / R1a-M17 = 7.8%
R1b-U152 = 12.4% / R1b-M269* = 13.6%

The only substantial Keltic lineage in the Bavarian (Bajuwarische/Bairische) areas is R1b-U152 and that at ~10-12% with the Germanic lineage of R1b-U106 being ~20%; I would like to see some data that compares Bavaria (Franconia) north of the Danube with Bavaria (Schwaben/Altbayern/Regensburg) south of the Danube;

It also depends on who exactly the the Germanic Bajuwaren were; Most Germanic peoples of the Migration era were in fact a confederation of numerous remnant tribes of the given areas;
 
Gaels and Picts would have been R1b regardless; as where those "isolated and different" basque people with their heavy R1b.
 
The hg I-M253 levels across Bavaria and Tyrol is actually surprisingly high 10-15%. R1b U-106 is found at a constant 20% but in most regions there's even more R1a than u-152 (although u-152 is a subclade, not a hg on its own).
 
The hg I-M253 levels across Bavaria and Tyrol is actually surprisingly high 10-15%. R1b U-106 is found at a constant 20% but in most regions there's even more R1a than u-152 (although u-152 is a subclade, not a hg on its own).

Its not that surprising;
for example in the year 488 AD - Odoaker after defeating the Rugier - urged all Provincials of Noricum (Kelts/Romano-Kelts) to cross the Alps into Italy (into His/Odoakers Kingdom); So the Keltic lineages of the Norici/Taurisci is no longer to be found in its quantity in the modern-day area of former Noricum which was than later settled by Germanics and Slavs (Slavs/Avars); Its simply due to the course of History;

Also the Germanic tribes of the Migration era subjugated the local provincial Romanic (Romano-Kelts) pops. and dragged them along in their further migrations and destinations; As recorded by the Germanic Langobarden when they settled Gallia Cisalpina;

Paul the Deacon - Historia gentis Langobardorum - Book II/XXVI
Whence, even until today, we call the villages in which they dwell Gepidan, Bulgarian, Sarmatian, Pannonian, Suabian, Norican, or by other names of this kind

There was a lot of Turmoil and Population movements/displacements during the Hun invasion and Germanic migration eras; Especially border provinces like Raetia, Pannonia and Noricum need a very close look;

East Tyrol was part of ancient Noricum and is in modern-day:
12.5% U152 and 18.8% U106 - Niederstätter et al 2013 (270 samples)
Bavaria (south of the Danube) was part of ancient Raetia (Vindelici) and is in modern-day:
10.0% U152 and 21.1% U106 - Rebala et al 2013 (218 samples)

Both of course in modern times Germanic [Bajuwaren (Bairisch/Oberdeutsch)] areas;
 
just at regional level, I picked some surveys results I "stole" in other forums I think: scarce enough samples helas! (all about 80 I believe)
Y-R1b-U106:
North England 25,0% -- North-West England 21,3% -- Central England a) 18,2% <> b) 24,0% (mean about 21%?) -- East-England 25,6% -- East-Anglia (C-S-E!) 29,1% -- South-East/Kent 26,39% --
South-West England a) 25,0% <> b) 24,0% (in reality more Central South-West than very SW)
compared to other regions
North-West Scotland 6,3% South West Scotland 9,5% North-East Scotland 6,3%
North Wales 9,2%
North Ireland 14,3% (surely mostly Protestant part) -- North-West Ireland 4,2% -- West Ireland a) 0,0%! <> b) 4,5% -- South Ireland 3,4% -- South-West Ireland 4,5% -- South-East Ireland 8,3% (less dark region, with a lot of Norman and anglo-saxon names if I don't mistake) -- East Ireland (and Dublin?) a) 0,0! <> b) 4,0% surprising!
leaven the scarce samples, what amazes me is the low level of S21 in N-E SCotland where Y-R1b-L21 (52,2%) and Y-R1b-U152 (19,4%) are respectively high enough...
as a whole Scotland does not seem too germanic, and the germanic element in N-E and N, N-W seems "male viking" - only S-E (East Borders, Lothians) could show highest continental germanic HGs, I suppose - but larger samples and more regions would be very wellcome -
&: I don't exclude Belgae tribes send some rare Y-R1b U106 elements -

Hmm that's interesting, thanks for sharing. I didn't realise it went up to 29% in East Anglia, i guess that is most likely to do with Frisians, given the cultural similarities.
 
I didn't realize u106 that high across England,are there any surveys of i1 distribution acorss England?
 

This thread has been viewed 131993 times.

Back
Top