Scots, how Celtic are they?

[adamo]

Gaels and Picts would have been R1b regardless; as where those "isolated and different" basque people with their heavy R1b.

[adamo]

The hg I-M253 levels across Bavaria and Tyrol is actually surprisingly high 10-15%. R1b U-106 is found at a constant 20% but in most regions there's even more R1a than u-152 (although u-152 is a subclade, not a hg on its own).

[Nobody1]

The hg I-M253 levels across Bavaria and Tyrol is actually surprisingly high 10-15%. R1b U-106 is found at a constant 20% but in most regions there's even more R1a than u-152 (although u-152 is a subclade, not a hg on its own).

Its not that surprising;
for example in the year 488 AD - Odoaker after defeating the Rugier - urged all Provincials of Noricum (Kelts/Romano-Kelts) to cross the Alps into Italy (into His/Odoakers Kingdom); So the Keltic lineages of the Norici/Taurisci is no longer to be found in its quantity in the modern-day area of former Noricum which was than later settled by Germanics and Slavs (Slavs/Avars); Its simply due to the course of History;

Also the Germanic tribes of the Migration era subjugated the local provincial Romanic (Romano-Kelts) pops. and dragged them along in their further migrations and destinations; As recorded by the Germanic Langobarden when they settled Gallia Cisalpina;

Paul the Deacon - Historia gentis Langobardorum - Book II/XXVI
Whence, even until today, we call the villages in which they dwell Gepidan, Bulgarian, Sarmatian, Pannonian, Suabian, Norican, or by other names of this kind

There was a lot of Turmoil and Population movements/displacements during the Hun invasion and Germanic migration eras; Especially border provinces like Raetia, Pannonia and Noricum need a very close look;

East Tyrol was part of ancient Noricum and is in modern-day:
12.5% U152 and 18.8% U106 - Niederstätter et al 2013 (270 samples)
Bavaria (south of the Danube) was part of ancient Raetia (Vindelici) and is in modern-day:
10.0% U152 and 21.1% U106 - Rebala et al 2013 (218 samples)

Both of course in modern times Germanic [Bajuwaren (Bairisch/Oberdeutsch)] areas;

[Jackson]

just at regional level, I picked some surveys results I "stole" in other forums I think: scarce enough samples helas! (all about 80 I believe)
Y-R1b-U106:
North England 25,0% -- North-West England 21,3% -- Central England a) 18,2% <> b) 24,0% (mean about 21%?) -- East-England 25,6% -- East-Anglia (C-S-E!) 29,1% -- South-East/Kent 26,39% --
South-West England a) 25,0% <> b) 24,0% (in reality more Central South-West than very SW)
compared to other regions
North-West Scotland 6,3% South West Scotland 9,5% North-East Scotland 6,3%
North Wales 9,2%
North Ireland 14,3% (surely mostly Protestant part) -- North-West Ireland 4,2% -- West Ireland a) 0,0%! <> b) 4,5% -- South Ireland 3,4% -- South-West Ireland 4,5% -- South-East Ireland 8,3% (less dark region, with a lot of Norman and anglo-saxon names if I don't mistake) -- East Ireland (and Dublin?) a) 0,0! <> b) 4,0% surprising!
leaven the scarce samples, what amazes me is the low level of S21 in N-E SCotland where Y-R1b-L21 (52,2%) and Y-R1b-U152 (19,4%) are respectively high enough...
as a whole Scotland does not seem too germanic, and the germanic element in N-E and N, N-W seems "male viking" - only S-E (East Borders, Lothians) could show highest continental germanic HGs, I suppose - but larger samples and more regions would be very wellcome -
&: I don't exclude Belgae tribes send some rare Y-R1b U106 elements -

Hmm that's interesting, thanks for sharing. I didn't realise it went up to 29% in East Anglia, i guess that is most likely to do with Frisians, given the cultural similarities.

[tjlowery87]

I didn't realize u106 that high across England,are there any surveys of i1 distribution acorss England?

[Jackson]

so the Germanic vs celtic dna in England and lowlands is bascically like Bavaria?

Well it's difficult to say because the haplogroups of the Celts in lowland Britain were very different from those in Celtic southern Germany, and i think the latter also had more of some other groups like E and things - And it also has a Slavic element that Britain doesn't really have.
If one is to trust Maciamo's map then England is roughly as Germanic as an area that pretty much goes from the the mouth of the Rhine down it's eastern extent into central-western Germany, so i guess Northwest and West Central Germany and the southern Netherlands and Flanders. However, in terms of autosomal DNA, because the Celts in lowland Britain were more similar genetically to the northern Germans than those in many areas of Central Europe that became German, that is partly why we are genetically closer to those people than say, the Austrians. But our closest relatives today are the Dutch, and they are a mix of Frisians, Saxons and Franks for the most part. Whereas we are mainly a mix Angles, Saxons, Frisians, Britons, Belgic Gauls (in areas of the south-east) with also some smaller Jutish and Frankish elements.

[tjlowery87]

thanks for your help jackson

[tjlowery87]

and thanks to every one else

[adamo]

English and Bavarians would not have had very different haplogroups; the English have 70-75% R1b and about 45-50% of southern Germans are R1b as well. England has 15% hg I1 whereas southern Germany has 10%. R1a is about 10% in southern Germany (4-5% England or slightly less) and there is 7-8% of both E3b and G. All other haplogroups are found at very low frequencies in both countries.

[adamo]

They actually share much genetic similarity; but are obviously not the same nation; Neolithic haplogroups are literally a tad higher in southern Germany, not to mention slightly inflated R1a,G and E3b levels.

[adamo]

Nearing the 8-10% for those hg's.

[Jackson]

Well it's difficult to say because the haplogroups of the Celts in lowland Britain were very different from those in Celtic southern Germany, and i think the latter also had more of some other groups like E and things - And it also has a Slavic element that Britain doesn't really have.
If one is to trust Maciamo's map then England is roughly as Germanic as an area that pretty much goes from the the mouth of the Rhine down it's eastern extent into central-western Germany, so i guess Northwest and West Central Germany and the southern Netherlands and Flanders. However, in terms of autosomal DNA, because the Celts in lowland Britain were more similar genetically to the northern Germans than those in many areas of Central Europe that became German, that is partly why we are genetically closer to those people than say, the Austrians. But our closest relatives today are the Dutch, and they are a mix of Frisians, Saxons and Franks for the most part. Whereas we are mainly a mix Angles, Saxons, Frisians, Britons, Belgic Gauls (in areas of the south-east) with also some smaller Jutish and Frankish elements.

Why so much hate on this post lol?

[adamo]

You claimed that England and southern German genetics were "very different" for starters

[Jackson]

You claimed that England and southern German genetics were "very different" for starters

No i claimed that the Celtic y-DNA in both areas is different, in Britain it is mainly L21, with some U152 and P312 (non L21 and U152).

In terms of autosomal DNA, they are quite different, as southern Germany and Austria are more central European and Britain more NW European.

[adamo]

There's much more R-S21 in England (20-25%) than there is R-S28 (maybe 8-10%) and P312 in it's most basal form is even rarer. R-l21 is present in 35-40% of British males I would say but this is nothing to Ireland's 65-85% range I would say and Irish also have very high M222 of course

[adamo]

You are once more incorrect; R-L21 is the one that is still present at 30-40% across England and R-S28 is extremely rare but present (10%), P312 is even rarer and he Germanic R-S21 is found at 20-25%.

[Jackson]

You are once more incorrect; R-L21 is the one that is still present at 30-40% across England and R-S28 is extremely rare but present (10%), P312 is even rarer and he Germanic R-S21 is found at 20-25%.

Well R1b-L21 only goes up to around 20-25% at the Welsh border, and drops to 10-15% in East and South-East England, and 15-20% in Central England. U152 and P312 are pretty well represented in the areas where R1b-L21 is low, though. Although L21 is around 30-40% in NW and SW England.

[adamo]

U152 never increases above 15% in the southernmost strip of the country.

[adamo]

Everywhere else in england the u152 is at even lower percentages; S116* isn't present either! albeit at extremely low frequencies.

[Sile]

Why so much hate on this post lol?

Jackson to jackson.....are you talking to yourself?

[Jackson]

Jackson to jackson.....are you talking to yourself?

No i was just asking a question of other posters, referring to a post i made.

[MOESAN]

From what I read and seen recently, the Scots where the last to become Celtic.
history says all Scotland was pictland, then after the romans left Britain, the gaels from Ireland landed and established a homeland in western Scotland, eventually the Gaels and picts united around 950AD and it was then that the term Scot was born.

Scotti of ireland or modern Scots?: it is necessery not confuse the two concepts -
BUT WHY Scotland would have been the last celtized? the last of who?
yet Scotland was not Pictland at ancient times (the name Pict seemingly arose late enough, and from what we know, Picts WERE Celts or at least celtic speaking - the name of a lot of tribes of North Scotland during and before Romans times were celtic (even there was a Cornovii settlement far North in Caithness) - and the Galloway SW Scotland region, before being gaelicized was cumbrian (brittonic) speaking - just for precisions -

[adamo]

And thus nobody gave two f_ _ _ _ about genetics today! XD

[Tomenable]

You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project. It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.

There are about 9% of Germanic haplogroup I1. The rest is less clear. Most of the R1a (8.5%) and I2b (4%) is probably Germanic too, although some of it might be Celtic. Haplogroup Q (0.5%) is surely of Scandinavian origin.

R1b is mixed Celtic and Germanic. Here is a small analysis.

Not all R1b members tested for subclades, but among those who did I counted 66 Germanic R1b1a2a1a1a, aka R1b-U106 (12.5%) and 470 predominantly Celtic R1b1a2a1a1b (87.5%). The latter includes :

- 60 Irish-Scottish R1b-M222 (12%)
- 31 purely Scottish R1b-S68 (6%)
- 31 Italo-Gaulish R1b-U152 (6%)
- 11 mostly Franco-Iberian R1b-SRY2627 (2%)

The others are undefined. There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

Within R1b, 12.5% is Germanic R1b-U106 and 12.5% is Germanic R1b-L21. One fourth of R1b is Germanic, and three fourth Celtic. As 72.5% of Scots are R1b, it means that about 18% of all Scottish haplogroups are Germanic R1b.

The total for Germanic lineages (I1, I2b, Q, R1a and Germanic R1b) is therefore about 40%.

Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T), which account for 4.5% of Scottish lineages, might have come to Britain during the Neolithic, or through continental Celts, Romans and Germanic tribes. It's probably a bit of everything, though nobody knows in which proportion. Let's say that 2.5% is of Germanic origin to keep the proportions with average haplogroup frequencies in the Netherlands and Norway, the source countries of the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings in Scotland.

This gives us 42.5% of lineages of Germanic origin. The rest (57.5%) can be considered Celtic.

I2b Germanic ??? BTW - why do you think that 100% of I1 and 100% of R1b-U106 was Germanic? Maybe some of it was Celtic ???

Large parts of continental Germanic groups are themselves descendants of Non-Germanic populations assimilated / absorbed into Germanic-speakers.

So how do you count - for example - a Germanized Gallo-Roman who migrated to Britain? Do you count such guys as Germanic ???

[MichaelOH]

I suppose that the Scottish referendum will shift the focus back to R1b rule in the European Union with bigger fish to fry, as virtually all male European royalty of this type. Celt is a late historical designation applied first by the Greeks in relation to their barbarian neighbors to the north and west.