Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 147

Thread: Scots, how Celtic are they?

  1. #101
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    12-12-14
    Posts
    3


    Country: Canada



    How Celtic the Scots are is an interesting question and one that's important to me. I am of Scots ancestry on my father's side, and I know for a fact that my great-grandparents came from the lowlands in Scotland. Through paper-based records, I have traced my paternal line back approximately 200 years. However, I don't know whether my father's side of the family is Celtic. My mother's side definitely is, as her father was of Highland Scots ancestry and her mother was of Irish descent.

    Interestingly enough, I stumbled across a surname-related resource on the web that says my surname is a locational surname and that people in Scotland with that surname are Celtic upland hill farmers. To the casual observer, though, my surname would appear to be quite Anglo-Saxon, and even downright Germanic.

    From my research I have also discovered that my family name appears to have originated in southwestern Scotland, an area where many Ibero-Celtic tribes existed. The confounding factor is that my surname is found on both sides of the Scots-English border, and also in parts of eastern Scotland, and northeastern England not far from the border, and on top of that, the spelling of the surname on both sides of the border is the same. Most of eastern England is generally accepted to be predominantly Anglo-Saxon in terms of genetic make-up.

    Adding further to the conundrum is the fact that my surname has an English and a Scottish branch, and neither is genetically related to the other. There is also some evidence to support the idea that the surname is derived from a middle-English word meaning 'stream', and at the same time, there is a Gaelic word that means the same thing and it has a spelling that is quite close to the spelling of my surname. As an aside, it's worth noting that Gaelic was widely spoken in the Scottish Lowlands up until 1100AD or so.

    In an effort to begin to resolve the confusion, and to dip my toe into the complicated waters of DNA genealogy, I had my DNA tested through Connect my DNA. Connect my DNA doesn't claim to help you determine your ancestry or which haplogroup you belong to. Instead, it shows you where in the world you are most likely to find people whose genetic profiles are most similar to your own.

    The results of the test were quite surprising. It shows that I am most similar to Macedonians, and least similar to Scots! The Irish come in fifth place amongst the ten countries with people who are genetically most similar to me, and that does make perfect sense, as I do have considerable Irish ancestry.

    Insofar as the Connect my DNA test doesn't offer ancestral information, it does offer some tantalizing clues as to ancestry and haplogroup. If the test was indeed accurate with respect to the Macedonian DNA I might possess, then it leads me to suspect that my haplogroup might be E3b, or I2b. Both haplogroups have been found in Scotland but at very low frequencies, and Scottish men with those haplogroups are believed to be the descendants of Roman soldiers who were recruited in the Balkans and Macedonia, which is to say that they're not really Celtic at all. However, none of this excludes the possibility that my haplogroup may be the famous R1b that is associated with Celtic tribes in Britain, as R1b does exist in Macedonia at frequencies between 5 and 8%.

    Something that further supports the possibility of a R1b haplogroup in my paternal line is that Austria and the Czech Republic also come up in my genetic profile results, but in second and third place. Hallstatt, Austria is the seat of the famous Celtic 'Hallstatt Culture' where the majority of the people there belonged to the R1b haplogroup and migrated to all parts of central Europe and Great Britain. Celtic tribespeople from the Hallstatt Culture were also found in the southwest of what is now the Czech Republic.

    In an effort to determine my actual haplogroup and whether my paternal line is English or Scottish, I've ordered a Y-DNA test from FamilyTree DNA. I haven't yet received the testing kit, but I will report back with the results once they become available.

  2. #102
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by FalkirkEagle View Post
    How Celtic the Scots are is an interesting question and one that's important to me. I am of Scots ancestry on my father's side, and I know for a fact that my great-grandparents came from the lowlands in Scotland. Through paper-based records, I have traced my paternal line back approximately 200 years. However, I don't know whether my father's side of the family is Celtic. My mother's side definitely is, as her father was of Highland Scots ancestry and her mother was of Irish descent.

    Interestingly enough, I stumbled across a surname-related resource on the web that says my surname is a locational surname and that people in Scotland with that surname are Celtic upland hill farmers. To the casual observer, though, my surname would appear to be quite Anglo-Saxon, and even downright Germanic.

    From my research I have also discovered that my family name appears to have originated in southwestern Scotland, an area where many Ibero-Celtic tribes existed. The confounding factor is that my surname is found on both sides of the Scots-English border, and also in parts of eastern Scotland, and northeastern England not far from the border, and on top of that, the spelling of the surname on both sides of the border is the same. Most of eastern England is generally accepted to be predominantly Anglo-Saxon in terms of genetic make-up.

    Adding further to the conundrum is the fact that my surname has an English and a Scottish branch, and neither is genetically related to the other. There is also some evidence to support the idea that the surname is derived from a middle-English word meaning 'stream', and at the same time, there is a Gaelic word that means the same thing and it has a spelling that is quite close to the spelling of my surname. As an aside, it's worth noting that Gaelic was widely spoken in the Scottish Lowlands up until 1100AD or so.

    In an effort to begin to resolve the confusion, and to dip my toe into the complicated waters of DNA genealogy, I had my DNA tested through Connect my DNA. Connect my DNA doesn't claim to help you determine your ancestry or which haplogroup you belong to. Instead, it shows you where in the world you are most likely to find people whose genetic profiles are most similar to your own.

    The results of the test were quite surprising. It shows that I am most similar to Macedonians, and least similar to Scots! The Irish come in fifth place amongst the ten countries with people who are genetically most similar to me, and that does make perfect sense, as I do have considerable Irish ancestry.

    Insofar as the Connect my DNA test doesn't offer ancestral information, it does offer some tantalizing clues as to ancestry and haplogroup. If the test was indeed accurate with respect to the Macedonian DNA I might possess, then it leads me to suspect that my haplogroup might be E3b, or I2b. Both haplogroups have been found in Scotland but at very low frequencies, and Scottish men with those haplogroups are believed to be the descendants of Roman soldiers who were recruited in the Balkans and Macedonia, which is to say that they're not really Celtic at all. However, none of this excludes the possibility that my haplogroup may be the famous R1b that is associated with Celtic tribes in Britain, as R1b does exist in Macedonia at frequencies between 5 and 8%.

    Something that further supports the possibility of a R1b haplogroup in my paternal line is that Austria and the Czech Republic also come up in my genetic profile results, but in second and third place. Hallstatt, Austria is the seat of the famous Celtic 'Hallstatt Culture' where the majority of the people there belonged to the R1b haplogroup and migrated to all parts of central Europe and Great Britain. Celtic tribespeople from the Hallstatt Culture were also found in the southwest of what is now the Czech Republic.

    In an effort to determine my actual haplogroup and whether my paternal line is English or Scottish, I've ordered a Y-DNA test from FamilyTree DNA. I haven't yet received the testing kit, but I will report back with the results once they become available.
    according to scottish historians and the 10 part documentary..history of Scotland, the only celtic part is from the Irish Gaelic which landed in western Scotland and fought the indigenous Picts in eastern Scotland...by 980AD they merged and created the scots
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  3. #103
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by FalkirkEagle View Post
    How Celtic the Scots are is an interesting question and one that's important to me. I am of Scots ancestry on my father's side, and I know for a fact that my great-grandparents came from the lowlands in Scotland. Through paper-based records, I have traced my paternal line back approximately 200 years. However, I don't know whether my father's side of the family is Celtic. My mother's side definitely is, as her father was of Highland Scots ancestry and her mother was of Irish descent.
    As you're probably quite aware, the Celticity of the Scots depends greatly on the region of Scotland they are from, and even the type of Celtic that makes them up the most (Gaelic or Brythonic) depends on the region. However, as a rule of thumb, Scots are pretty reliably in-between the English and the Welsh in terms of amount of Celtic genetics. I've seen that pattern generally in Y-DNA distributions, full-genome proxy analyses (People of the British Isles and similar), and component-based autosomal analyses (like Eurogenes). Even with all that data, though, it's tough to narrow in on a percentage or anything like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by FalkirkEagle View Post
    Interestingly enough, I stumbled across a surname-related resource on the web that says my surname is a locational surname and that people in Scotland with that surname are Celtic upland hill farmers. To the casual observer, though, my surname would appear to be quite Anglo-Saxon, and even downright Germanic.
    No idea what your surname is, but it's definitely possible for a surname to have multiple derivations. If your line is from the Scottish Lowlands, your surname might not be a good indicator one way or another.

    Quote Originally Posted by FalkirkEagle View Post
    From my research I have also discovered that my family name appears to have originated in southwestern Scotland, an area where many Ibero-Celtic tribes existed. The confounding factor is that my surname is found on both sides of the Scots-English border, and also in parts of eastern Scotland, and northeastern England not far from the border, and on top of that, the spelling of the surname on both sides of the border is the same. Most of eastern England is generally accepted to be predominantly Anglo-Saxon in terms of genetic make-up.
    Northeastern England clusters more closely to SW Scotland and Cumbria than it does to East Anglia, though. The English/Scottish border shares a lot of culture and genetics across both sides of the border.

    Also, Ibero-Celtic tribes? I'd say Brythonic Celtic tribes, mostly, like the Selgovae and so forth. Of course, surnames came long after the Classical era tribes.

    Quote Originally Posted by FalkirkEagle View Post
    In an effort to begin to resolve the confusion, and to dip my toe into the complicated waters of DNA genealogy, I had my DNA tested through Connect my DNA. Connect my DNA doesn't claim to help you determine your ancestry or which haplogroup you belong to. Instead, it shows you where in the world you are most likely to find people whose genetic profiles are most similar to your own.

    The results of the test were quite surprising. It shows that I am most similar to Macedonians, and least similar to Scots! The Irish come in fifth place amongst the ten countries with people who are genetically most similar to me, and that does make perfect sense, as I do have considerable Irish ancestry.
    I would put pretty much zero stock into results from Connect my DNA. They're not well regarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by FalkirkEagle View Post
    In an effort to determine my actual haplogroup and whether my paternal line is English or Scottish, I've ordered a Y-DNA test from FamilyTree DNA. I haven't yet received the testing kit, but I will report back with the results once they become available.
    This is a much better idea. Keep us posted.

  4. #104
    Great Adventurer sparkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-02-11
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,251

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c1 PF3892+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    according to scottish historians and the 10 part documentary..history of Scotland, the only celtic part is from the Irish Gaelic which landed in western Scotland and fought the indigenous Picts in eastern Scotland...by 980AD they merged and created the scots
    So you reject the idea that Picts were Celts? And what about the Brythonic tribes of Scotland?

  5. #105
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    So you reject the idea that Picts were Celts? And what about the Brythonic tribes of Scotland?
    how old are the picts? You think the spoke celtic?

    maybe you need to ask the people who put the program together....its not more than 2 years old IIRC

  6. #106
    Regular Member Aberdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-11-13
    Posts
    1,838

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H4

    Ethnic group
    Scottish, English and German
    Country: Canada-Ontario



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    So you reject the idea that Picts were Celts? And what about the Brythonic tribes of Scotland?
    What about some of the earlier names on the Pictish king list? Do they not appear to be non-Celtic and in fact non-IE in some cases? Perhaps the Picts of the historical period, were a blend of Brythonic and earlier non-IE influences.

    As for Scottish surnames, I think they can sometimes be an unreliable guide to ancestry in the case of people who came into conflict with the government - some people changed their name because a sept or clan was proscribed. However, there are also lots of cases where a surname is a good guide to ancestry - it depends on which surname we're talking about.

  7. #107
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    how old are the picts? You think the spoke celtic?

    maybe you need to ask the people who put the program together....its not more than 2 years old IIRC
    The earliest reference to the term "Picts" (an exonym), I think, comes from the 4th century AD, only decades prior to the abandonment of Britain by the Romans. The tribal name "Caledonii" is attested from earlier (the earliest reference would be with Tacitus, from the late 1st century AD), and it is clearly Celtic, compare it with modern Breton "kalet" and Welsh "caled" ('durable', 'hard'). From what we do know from both Graeco-Roman and medieval Irish sources, the Picts spoke a Celtic language (these sources give a coherent picture), similar to the "Old" Brythonic that was spoken further south in Roman-occupied Britain. Goidelic, in contrast, wasn't spoken in Scotland until the Migration Period.

  8. #108
    Regular Member Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,117

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The earliest reference to the term "Picts" (an exonym), I think, comes from the 4th century AD, only decades prior to the abandonment of Britain by the Romans. The tribal name "Caledonii" is attested from earlier (the earliest reference would be with Tacitus, from the late 1st century AD), and it is clearly Celtic, compare it with modern Breton "kalet" and Welsh "caled" ('durable', 'hard'). From what we do know from both Graeco-Roman and medieval Irish sources, the Picts spoke a Celtic language (these sources give a coherent picture), similar to the "Old" Brythonic that was spoken further south in Roman-occupied Britain. Goidelic, in contrast, wasn't spoken in Scotland until the Migration Period.
    ok

    so, as some say, no association with pictones of france who where vasconic in langauge ? ( actually border vasconic , but could be vasconic )

  9. #109
    Elite member
    Join Date
    21-01-14
    Posts
    533


    Country: UK - Wales



    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    I do not understand that the Scandinavians brought the haplogroup Q to Scotland.
    This must be a mistake. How did the haplogroup Q arrive in Scandinavia?
    By birds?
    birds in kayaks hunting seals and catching fish

    http://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-ma...image_original

  10. #110
    Elite member
    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,378

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    ok

    so, as some say, no association with pictones of france who where vasconic in langauge ? ( actually border vasconic , but could be vasconic )
    Pictones spoke Vasconic, because they lived in Aquitania? Who says so? I said before in other threads, Romans were horrible ethnographers and the boundaries of the Roman provinces did not correspond with ethnic boundaries. The approximate boundary between Gaulish and Aquitanian (Old Basque) was the the bank of the river Garonne. The Pictones (around Poitiers) clearly lived north of the Garonne:


  11. #111
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-04-11
    Posts
    85


    Country: France



    If we assume that the name of the Picts has been given by the Romans (what I believe), the Pictones are not related to the Picts. However their name would come from the same IE root, which means "those who are painted", which could be also the meaning of the name of the Pictavi (in Iberia).

  12. #112
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-03-15
    Posts
    17

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-L21+L1335+L1065+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H

    Ethnic group
    (Anglo-Celtic)-mixed West Country English/ Scotch-Irish/ Palatine German
    Country: USA - Tennessee



    Scotland is probably the most heavily mixed Germanic-Celtic nation in the entire British isles.

    throughout the entire nation this is true


    all DNA studies show the population of the Lowlands are heavily mixed with Celtic and Germanic genetics from earlier times.

    there is even a gradient between Eastern Lowlands, with higher Germanic types and SW Lowlands with higher historical Celtic lineages

    but the Celtic lines are still fairly high in the East too.

    The popultion is basically evenly mixed with Celtic and Germanic genes/ancestry


    same can be said of the Highlands too. History and genetics show a majority of highlanders have heavily mied Norse (Germanic) and Celtic ancestry.

    also, the typical Irish Y-DNA in Scotland, R1b-M222 is only moderate throughout the whole country, even I the western Isles, the pre-Gaelic R1b-L21, Scot's Modal is much more common and is very typical of all Scottish people even in the Lowlands.

    it actually has the heaviest concentration in the Central Belt ad close to Glasgow.

    this I the oldest R1b-L21 clad in Scotland and is just common among Lowlanders too, but so are other Celtic types though to typically come from a Brythonic/Cumbric speaking Celtic population in the Lowlands from earlier times.

    if you look at the charts on this website for R1b-L21 maps and R1b-U106 and I1a and even R1b-S28 its clear that the Lowlands are heavily mixed with both Germanic and Celtic DNA and so are the Highlands.

    going by genetic studies, Lowlanders have a lot f mixed Anglo-Celtic/Bernician-Celtic ancestry especially when compared to population of southern England, but also the Highlands have a lot f heavy Germanic-Celtic genetic mixture too, especially when compared to the genetic studies of Ireland and Wales.

    Highland and Lowland culture has nothing to do with it.
    Both Old Scots and Gaelic arrived in Scotland abut th same time, 4-5-6th century AD, so no one can say one is more or less Scottish than the other.Plus, again, the most common Y-DNA type n the highlands is that from the pre-Gaelic speaking Celtic people as well as being the most common type in the western Lowlands too

    ad most experts think the Picts, who were just essentially native Britons who still painted/tattooed their bodies after the other Britons had stopped the practice, spoke a P-Celtic language but more similar to Old Gaulish than to Old British.

    as for culture and genes, most Highlanders especially in the western Isles and Northern Isles come from greatly mixed Galloglass/Norse-Gaelic ancestry/genetic legacy and even in the Lowlands too where some people in Galloway still spoke Gaelic in the 1600's.


    Scotland both Highland Lowland is the most heavily or evenly mixed Germanic-Celtic population in the British Isles.

    plus there's been 3 major Celtic speaking populations who made their mark there in pre ad post Roman times which can still be easily seen today in terms of genetic ancestry and there's been 2 major Germanic speaking populations who also made their mark which again can still be easily seen today in Scotland and there's not one area of Scotland or it's people that has been largely untouched by that, whether Bernician or Viking-Norse.

    the only major difference is, the Gaelic invaders from Ireland became the dominant culture/language of the Highlands, even if not the dominant genetic legacy, but only because a Pictish prince was brought up in ancient Ulster where it safer for him at the time , and then brought that culture with him when he went back to Scotland/Pictland to reclaim his throne .


    and the Bernicians, largely mixed with the native Cumbric population of the Lowlands after gaining control of the region but also the Britons of Strathclyde in the western Lowlands remained a strong kingdom/people until almost the time of the Norman Conquest in England.

    plus in the later stages of that kingdom an that area they were being mixed with Gaelic Scots and speaking a mixture of Cumbric and Gaelic when the Bernicians of the Lothians finally took over control of the western lowlands an then eventually Old Scots became the dominant language.

    but in places like Galloway they largely resisted their influence for a long time and again part of the population there even spoke Gaelic until the 1600's.


    Scotland and its people are heavily mixed with Germanic and Celtic ancestry but like any other place or country/nation in the British isles it also depends on where you go in Scotland because different areas have their own unique or different history and population movements/people

    plus I don't think seriously truly know just how many surnames with a Celtic or Gaelic origin became heavily anglicized in later times for so many reasons.

    and th fact that the language of the Picts became Gaelicized
    even though it was extremely rare,sometimes surnames even became Gaelicized in the Lowlands in places like Galloway

    but also many Highland Families or Clans took their name from or were named after a person, from Old Norse or a Viking warrior nd from the Picts too

    Vikings /Norse warriors always mixed and became part of the larger native culture in the places they went.

    they did it in Ireland and England too but they didn't leave much a genetic/DNA legacy in the Irish but they left a huge genetic/DNA legacy in Scottish people, while adopting Gaelic/Celtc culture and intermarrying heavily with them, both Highland and Lowland, the did the exact same in England wth Engish people too
    Last edited by UltraViolence; 11-03-15 at 11:30.

  13. #113
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    12-12-14
    Posts
    3


    Country: Canada



    I recently got my FTDNA 37-marker test results back and they show that I belong to the R1b-M269 (Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype). I realize you can't do much with just 37 markers, but since several people who share my surname and belong to the same surname project have tested as R-L21, I thought I would go looking for typical R1b-L21 markers. In my searches, I came across a page devoted to something called The Little Scottish Cluster and found the markers posted there and compared with typical markers for the Little Scottish Cluster.

    It turns out that most of the markers I have match the typical markers for R-L21, so I've got a strong suspicion now that I'm possibly L21 in terms of a terminal SNP subgroup.

    It is interesting to note that most of my distant genetic matches in M269 are coming in from the midwesterly part of southern England, Wales and even Germany, with only 67 matches from Scotland. The presence of matches in these three areas seems to be consistent with the expected migration pattern of R-L21 in Britain, given that the subgroup is believed to have emerged in the Celtic areas of southwestern Germany.

    I'm going to be ordering a 67-marker test and a L21 test from FTDNA to nail down my hypothesis a little more conclusively.

  14. #114
    Elite member
    Join Date
    23-03-15
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    328

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-M222 (NW Irish)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1bi

    Ethnic group
    Scots Appalachian ("Hillbilly")
    Country: USA - Virginia



    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCoutts View Post
    My bold. So if one is an L21+ Scot, is there anyway to determine whether one's Y-DNA is Germanic or Celt?
    Check for downstream mutations. For example, if you have M222, your y-DNA is almost certainly Celtic.

  15. #115
    Regular Member EAB's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-15
    Posts
    23


    Country: United Kingdom



    I am quite sure there was a massive migration of English up into Scotland at one point, which would have been after the influence of Denmark and the Anglo Saxons, into the Lowlands. There was also a large amount of migration between Flanders and Netherlands for the weaving industry. There is a "Belgium Origin" club for DNA and ancestry interested people from Scotland, with names like Flemming being taken as signs of Belgium heritage.

  16. #116
    Regular Member JohnnieMc73's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-01-15
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S392/L621 Disles B

    Ethnic group
    Scottish
    Country: UK - Scotland



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    according to scottish historians and the 10 part documentary..history of Scotland, the only celtic part is from the Irish Gaelic which landed in western Scotland and fought the indigenous Picts in eastern Scotland...by 980AD they merged and created the scots
    Not according to any Scottish historians I know of! There is no proof of any mass migration or invasion by Gaels in to Scotland, more likely the Argyll and the Isles were closer to the North of Ireland in terms of both culture and language and long term travel back and forth between the two for a long time. Also, surely the Brythonic tribes in Strathclyde, Galloway and the Borders would be considered Celtic as would the Picts in the North and East?
    Last edited by JohnnieMc73; 21-09-15 at 21:32.

  17. #117
    Regular Member JohnnieMc73's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-01-15
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S392/L621 Disles B

    Ethnic group
    Scottish
    Country: UK - Scotland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    So you reject the idea that Picts were Celts? And what about the Brythonic tribes of Scotland?
    The Picts were a mix of various Brythonic tribes, just separated from the Romanised tribes further south and west.. who as you suggest would also have been Celtic.

  18. #118
    Regular Member JohnnieMc73's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-01-15
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S392/L621 Disles B

    Ethnic group
    Scottish
    Country: UK - Scotland



    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Gaels and Picts would have been R1b regardless; as where those "isolated and different" basque people with their heavy R1b.
    Where is the evidence for this?

  19. #119
    Elite member
    Join Date
    23-03-15
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    328

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-M222 (NW Irish)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1bi

    Ethnic group
    Scots Appalachian ("Hillbilly")
    Country: USA - Virginia



    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnieMc73 View Post
    Not according to any Scottish historians I know of! There is no proof of any mass migration or invasion by Gaels in to Scotland, more likely the Argyll and the Isles were closer to the North of Ireland in terms of both culture and language and long term travel back and forth between the two for a long time. Also, surly the Brythonic tribes in Strathclyde, Galloway and the Borders would be considered Celtic as would the Picts in the North and East?
    I think R1b-M222 represents evidence of (but not absolute proof) of Gaelic presence in Scotland. In fact, we see M222 more frequently in western Scotland, which is consistent with an Irish origin in the same way that the greater presence of I1 on the east coast of Britain and on the Orkney and Shetland islands suggests a significant Viking presence there, which matches up with recorded history that does speak of significant Viking settlements in those areas.

  20. #120
    Regular Member JohnnieMc73's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-01-15
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I-S392/L621 Disles B

    Ethnic group
    Scottish
    Country: UK - Scotland



    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    I think R1b-M222 represents evidence of (but not absolute proof) of Gaelic presence in Scotland. In fact, we see M222 more frequently in western Scotland, which is consistent with an Irish origin in the same way that the greater presence of I1 on the east coast of Britain and on the Orkney and Shetland islands suggests a significant Viking presence there, which matches up with recorded history that does speak of significant Viking settlements in those areas.
    Maybe Robert... I am not denying the Gaelic presence in Scotland but rather that it may have been present for a long before the 5th century and that the people of Argyll and the Hebrides shared cultural and genetic heritige with Northern Ireland. There is no archaeological or placename evidence of a migration or invasion so it is more likely that people had been travelling back and forth in both directions for a long time.

  21. #121
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-02-15
    Posts
    39


    Country: USA - Pennsylvania



    I've read that most of the Scots are descendants from the Picts, and some are from the Celts? I have a Scottish heritage but I am not really sure about the origins of it.

  22. #122
    Elite member
    Join Date
    23-03-15
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    328

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-M222 (NW Irish)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1bi

    Ethnic group
    Scots Appalachian ("Hillbilly")
    Country: USA - Virginia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by redeyednewt View Post
    I've read that most of the Scots are descendants from the Picts, and some are from the Celts? I have a Scottish heritage but I am not really sure about the origins of it.
    The Picts are generally understood to have been Celts, but not Gaels per se. Gaels are Celts that have historically spoken the Gaelic language, which belongs to a specific branch of the Celtic languages. The Gaelic presence and culture in Scotland is heavily linked to the Gaels of Ireland (in fact, as mentioned above, there appears to have been quite a bit of travel back and forth). The Gaelic-speaking kingdom of the Dal Riata included parts of both land masses.

  23. #123
    Elite member
    Join Date
    23-03-15
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    328

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-M222 (NW Irish)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1bi

    Ethnic group
    Scots Appalachian ("Hillbilly")
    Country: USA - Virginia



    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    The Picts are generally understood to have been Celts, but not Gaels per se. Gaels are Celts that have historically spoken the Gaelic language, which belongs to a specific branch of the Celtic languages. The Gaelic presence and culture in Scotland is heavily linked to the Gaels of Ireland (in fact, as mentioned above, there appears to have been quite a bit of travel back and forth). The Gaelic-speaking kingdom of the Dal Riata included parts of both land masses.
    Scots also have some (Germanic) Viking and Anglo-Saxon ancestry. The Germanic influence is greatest in the southeast of Scotland and in the Orkney and Shetland islands. Although it is not a perfect measurement tool (as exceptions can be found), it can generally be estimated that the areas of Scotland that have preserved Celtic languages the longest are likely to be the areas with the greatest amount of Celtic ancestry.

  24. #124
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    21-08-15
    Posts
    34

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Q1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1a

    Ethnic group
    Euro-Caribbean
    Country: Barbados



    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnieMc73;467243[SIZE=2
    the people of Argyll and the Hebrides shared cultural and genetic heritige with Northern Ireland. [/SIZE]

    I know the paper research for my Scottish ancestry leads to Argyll for generations (Lochgoilhead, Tarbet, surrounding area), Campbell surname. I had my uncle's DNA tested, and his paternal grandfather was from Scotland. His haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a2f*, and 23andme says:

    Haplogroup R1b1b2a1a2f2 reaches its peak in Ireland, where the vast majority of men carry Y-chromosomes belonging to the haplogroup. Researchers have recently discovered that a large subset of men assigned to the haplogroup may be direct male descendants of an Irish king who ruled during the 4th and early 5th centuries. According to Irish history, a king named Niall of the Nine Hostages established the Ui Neill dynasty that ruled the island country for the next millennium.
    Northwestern Ireland is said to have been the core of Niall's kingdom; and that is exactly where men bearing the genetic signature associated with him are most common. About 17% of men in northwestern Ireland have Y-chromosomes that are exact matches to the signature, and another few percent vary from it only slightly. In New York City, a magnet for Irish immigrants during the 19th and early 20th century, 2% of men have Y-chromosomes matching the Ui Neill signature. Genetic analysis suggests that all these men share a common ancestor who lived about 1,700 years ago. Among men living in northwestern Ireland today that date is closer to 1,000 years ago. Those dates neatly bracket the era when Niall is supposed to have reigned.
    Outside Ireland, R1b1b2a1a2f2 is relatively common only along the west coast of Britain.
    How would I go about looking for that M222 thing? I'm not too familiar with how to look at the raw data..

  25. #125
    Elite member
    Join Date
    23-03-15
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    328

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-M222 (NW Irish)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1bi

    Ethnic group
    Scots Appalachian ("Hillbilly")
    Country: USA - Virginia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamt View Post
    I know the paper research for my Scottish ancestry leads to Argyll for generations (Lochgoilhead, Tarbet, surrounding area), Campbell surname. I had my uncle's DNA tested, and his paternal grandfather was from Scotland. His haplogroup is R1b1b2a1a2f*, and 23andme says:



    How would I go about looking for that M222 thing? I'm not too familiar with how to look at the raw data..
    Open your 23AndMe raw data and look for the SNP Rs20321. If you see an "A" there, then that is M222. If it is a G, then it is not.

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The Italo-Celtic expansion
    By Smertrius in forum European Culture & History
    Replies: 105
    Last Post: 08-08-14, 14:35
  2. Celtic and Pre-Germanic
    By Taranis in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 66
    Last Post: 25-04-13, 12:54
  3. Were the Iberians considered Celtic by the Romans ?
    By spongetaro in forum History & Civilisations
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 16-10-12, 23:55
  4. Celtic - Serbian parallels
    By how yes no 2 in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 269
    Last Post: 31-05-12, 01:19
  5. Celtic or Norse?
    By DavidCoutts in forum R1b
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 21-01-12, 23:44

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •