Scots, how Celtic are they?

[jamt]

Nope, no M222 on the Scottish line.

[Ed the Red]

If you want to talk originally the Scots are as Celtic as can be. They were Gaels and were the last Celtic tribe who were in northern Ireland before they set up the kingdom of Dal Riata in SW scotland. Both Irish Book of Invasions and the Scottish origin has them dwelling in Spain before coming to Ireland. And that history has been called just a myth. But haha look at history and the genomes It starts to become true scripture. The Scots even attribute origin to greater Scythia which can't even be refuted anymore, the proof is in the pudding. The thing.

[Ed the Red]

It's over time they would've absorbed other genomes to make it what it is today i.e. Picts,Britons, angles, Vikings.

[ROS]

In western Europe, people who have been little or nothing Romanized preserve an old culture that more than Celtic could be said atlantic, north of portugal, galicia, asturias, brittany, ireland, scotland and some other area in the British Isles preserve this old culture Atlantica, which is often called Celtic, but I believe that Celtic would not be the most correct since this denomination is being used excessively.

[Ed the Red]

Yes but it would be better described as maybe an Atlantic branch of Celtic maybe. The problem with the Celts is that they were never unified. The areas that they inhabited at one time spread from Galatia in Anatolia to Galicia in Spain, to Galicia in Poland, and all the way to the British Isles. They were basically the first settlement of Indo European Nomadic warriors that spread into Europe and absolved whatever was there before. They were originally part of the great Scythian horde that swept into Europe. But just to be clear Scythia was just an area denoted by Greek historians, the number and size of all the different tribes will probably never be revealed. The fact of the matter is that they were conquerors and spread culture with them.

[Ed the Red]

And the culture and language that was spread was basically different branches of celtic. The funny thing is if you ask a Scotsman if he's a Celt or Gael he'll probably yell Im a Scot!

[Twilight]

And the culture and language that was spread was basically different branches of celtic. The funny thing is if you ask a Scotsman if he's a Celt or Gael he'll probably yell Im a Scot!

Probably depends on what region you are from. I personally consider myself Scots-Gealic/Brythonic; Brythonic because I have Englishmen in me also. My Great Grandpa Archibald MacDonald's (1920-1992) ancestors Immigrated to London from the Highlands.

[Ed the Red]

Should be Gaelic/Brythonic/Germanic then if you have English or Anglo-Saxon in you. It's probably really rare to have a scot without Germanic in him anyway. Whether it's Anglo-Saxon or Viking, definitely depends on the region

[Tomenable]

^^^ You forgot about Pictish ancestry.

[Ed the Red]

Is there any new details on what the Picts were? They have certain DNA markers that signify them from all the other populations in Scotland, but from what I've read is they are most likely just a different branch of Celtic.

[LeBrok]

Is there any new details on what the Picts were? They have certain DNA markers that signify them from all the other populations in Scotland, but from what I've read is they are most likely just a different branch of Celtic.

There is no DNA identified as being from culturally celtic place, or as variety of celtic groups. Though Hinxton4 could have been, I'm not sure. I would guess, genetically they looked very close to modern Irish or Scotish. And if what I see is true, then it means that celtic genetics and probably language had beginning in Western Corded Ware.

[MOESAN]

Yes but it would be better described as maybe an Atlantic branch of Celtic maybe. The problem with the Celts is that they were never unified. The areas that they inhabited at one time spread from Galatia in Anatolia to Galicia in Spain, to Galicia in Poland, and all the way to the British Isles. They were basically the first settlement of Indo European Nomadic warriors that spread into Europe and absolved whatever was there before. They were originally part of the great Scythian horde that swept into Europe. But just to be clear Scythia was just an area denoted by Greek historians, the number and size of all the different tribes will probably never be revealed. The fact of the matter is that they were conquerors and spread culture with them.

Typical Celts were not the first I-E reaching West Europe; language teach us they surely were an alpine specialisation of a western group influenced by older waves of I-E.s who after evolution left people speaking Northwest dialects (Benelux, later mixed with true Celts and some Germanics among the Belgae medley, maybe some descendants pre-Celts in Britain), Lusitanian and Ligurian and other gone dialects without written traces. I wonder if the celtic languages despite they are not the first ones, were not older than some so called celtic elites later come from Steppes with maybe new Eurasian people input, at least at Iron times (Hallstatt?)?
The Scythian story is maybe not completely clueless: some late influence not without a tiny genetic input? That said I doubt Scot name is issued from Scythe name, for phonetic reasons, but who can be sure? Perhaps Taranis could tell us something here?
The Celtic legends of Britain mix a North-African and Iberian journey with Scythes ancestors, apparently gallic-brythonic names of tribes and others; surely not completely false, but with unsure chronology at least...
the ratio gedrosia/caucasus componant in auDNA admixtures runs among Celts and Germans is interesting compared to other European people (I gained a high notoriety in other forums for my "naivety" n this subject) but the lack of east-asian input seem discarding recent Scythes; maybe only people of the western Steppes labelled 'Scythians' by mistake or generalisating assimilation?

[Ed the Red]

The vast area of Scythia compared to the Scythians within in it are two different things, so a generalisation for sure. The Scots do t call themselves Scythians here is a excerpt from the Declaration of Arbroath
"They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous.
So they don't denote them being Scythian, they just denote greater Scythia as being a place they journeyed from. This correlates exactly with the spread of the R1b haplogroup that the Scots/Irish are predominantly. The area of Scythia was a vast area around the black sea and was only given the name Scythia from Herodotus in the 7th century B.C.
So think how many tribes of Indo-Europeans had been flooding in from the steppes before 7th century B.C. The Scythians at that time were more related to Iranian they say. Another thing to note was the presence of Cimmerian's in that area which I've learned could've branched off much earlier with the oncoming presence of Scythians proper. The BBC actually did a t.v. series many years ago just called "Celts" and the Cimmerian's were mentioned as the forebearers of the Celts!
Hmmm interesting stuff but the proof is in the pudding and the pudding is blood pudding. The Scots/Irish know they came from the steppes!

[Ed the Red]

I made an error at the top it's supposed to say the Scots DON'T call themselves Scythian.

[MOESAN]

It's a bit aside but I often keep on reading here and there people making links between Cimmerians, Cymru and Cimbri; personally, aside the name of Cimbri which seems Celtic to me, I think Cimbri were of Celtic culture too, against the mainstream dogma. But I doubt Cimmerian name has something to do with Cymry from *Ken(m)-brogi, a late enough name (late at least in Britain where it seems being the name of a new aggregation of small tribes, on the model of the Franks who were a new grouping of Germanics); late name in Britain, but a tribe of Combrogi existed among Gauls.

[Ed the Red]

There is no DNA identified as being from culturally celtic place, or as variety of celtic groups. Though Hinxton4 could have been, I'm not sure. I would guess, genetically they looked very close to modern Irish or Scotish. And if what I see is true, then it means that celtic genetics and probably language had beginning in Western Corded Ware.

Not sure I follow you, are you backing what this site has to say? Corded ware is related to R1a on this site and spread with Germanic branch. R1b is definitely a cetic haplogroup and survives predominantly in Celtic Britain with the L21 subclade.

[Ed the Red]

Although at the start Germans and Celts were indistinguishable from each other.
The Picts were already in Scotland when the Romans were attacked by them. It makes sense that they would be related to the Britons but they possibly could have been an earlier settlement, there's much to learn and alot of testing to be done.

[LeBrok]

Not sure I follow you, are you backing what this site has to say? Corded ware is related to R1a on this site and spread with Germanic branch. R1b is definitely a cetic haplogroup and survives predominantly in Celtic Britain with the L21 subclade.

Forget about haplogroups, it is helpful but not in this case. It is only 2% of DNA and it is easily transferable to other ethnicities, being often misleading. We don't know yet where and how western type of R1b "exploded" in Europe. My educated guess is based on modern and ancient autosomal DNA.

[Ed the Red]

It's a bit aside but I often keep on reading here and there people making links between Cimmerians, Cymru and Cimbri; personally, aside the name of Cimbri which seems Celtic to me, I think Cimbri were of Celtic culture too, against the mainstream dogma. But I doubt Cimmerian name has something to do with Cymry from *Ken(m)-brogi, a late enough name (late at least in Britain where it seems being the name of a new aggregation of small tribes, on the model of the Franks who were a new grouping of Germanics); late name in Britain, but a tribe of Combrogi existed among Gauls.

What I think the best hypothesis is that the melting of people and culture has never been an outright eradication of DNA, culture, or language, there will always be remnants in my opinion. So it wouldn't make sense to say the Celts were started by just one known group of people ie. Cimmerians, Scythians. But those groups indicate possible contributers to the Celtic culture, as well as DNA.
You being from Brittany must obviously have a Celtic presedence. Does everyone in Brittany have the same feeling of Celtic descendency?

[Ed the Red]

Forget about haplogroups, it is helpful but not in this case. It is only 2% of DNA and it is easily transferable to other ethnicities, being often misleading. We don't know yet where and how western type of R1b "exploded" in Europe. My educated guess is based on modern and ancient autosomal DNA.

Aren't the Celts the obvious explanation of the explosion of R1b in europe? They were Conquering warriors that are known in history to have attacked everywhere and were masters of the iron age. The fact that they were so proficient in war leads again to the people of the steppes who were advanced in warfare

[Ed the Red]

Place names, tribal names, are all indicative of remnants of past cultures and people. I've actually used the Cymry and Cimbri as an example of a relation to Cimmerian. After all isn't the Crimean peninsula an adaptation of Cimmerian?

[firetown]

In the North Eastern part of Scotland, there is around 30% "Viking DNA".