Scots, how Celtic are they?

How Celtic the Scots are is an interesting question and one that's important to me. I am of Scots ancestry on my father's side, and I know for a fact that my great-grandparents came from the lowlands in Scotland. Through paper-based records, I have traced my paternal line back approximately 200 years. However, I don't know whether my father's side of the family is Celtic. My mother's side definitely is, as her father was of Highland Scots ancestry and her mother was of Irish descent.

Interestingly enough, I stumbled across a surname-related resource on the web that says my surname is a locational surname and that people in Scotland with that surname are Celtic upland hill farmers. To the casual observer, though, my surname would appear to be quite Anglo-Saxon, and even downright Germanic.

From my research I have also discovered that my family name appears to have originated in southwestern Scotland, an area where many Ibero-Celtic tribes existed. The confounding factor is that my surname is found on both sides of the Scots-English border, and also in parts of eastern Scotland, and northeastern England not far from the border, and on top of that, the spelling of the surname on both sides of the border is the same. Most of eastern England is generally accepted to be predominantly Anglo-Saxon in terms of genetic make-up.

Adding further to the conundrum is the fact that my surname has an English and a Scottish branch, and neither is genetically related to the other. There is also some evidence to support the idea that the surname is derived from a middle-English word meaning 'stream', and at the same time, there is a Gaelic word that means the same thing and it has a spelling that is quite close to the spelling of my surname. As an aside, it's worth noting that Gaelic was widely spoken in the Scottish Lowlands up until 1100AD or so.

In an effort to begin to resolve the confusion, and to dip my toe into the complicated waters of DNA genealogy, I had my DNA tested through Connect my DNA. Connect my DNA doesn't claim to help you determine your ancestry or which haplogroup you belong to. Instead, it shows you where in the world you are most likely to find people whose genetic profiles are most similar to your own.

The results of the test were quite surprising. It shows that I am most similar to Macedonians, and least similar to Scots! The Irish come in fifth place amongst the ten countries with people who are genetically most similar to me, and that does make perfect sense, as I do have considerable Irish ancestry.

Insofar as the Connect my DNA test doesn't offer ancestral information, it does offer some tantalizing clues as to ancestry and haplogroup. If the test was indeed accurate with respect to the Macedonian DNA I might possess, then it leads me to suspect that my haplogroup might be E3b, or I2b. Both haplogroups have been found in Scotland but at very low frequencies, and Scottish men with those haplogroups are believed to be the descendants of Roman soldiers who were recruited in the Balkans and Macedonia, which is to say that they're not really Celtic at all. However, none of this excludes the possibility that my haplogroup may be the famous R1b that is associated with Celtic tribes in Britain, as R1b does exist in Macedonia at frequencies between 5 and 8%.

Something that further supports the possibility of a R1b haplogroup in my paternal line is that Austria and the Czech Republic also come up in my genetic profile results, but in second and third place. Hallstatt, Austria is the seat of the famous Celtic 'Hallstatt Culture' where the majority of the people there belonged to the R1b haplogroup and migrated to all parts of central Europe and Great Britain. Celtic tribespeople from the Hallstatt Culture were also found in the southwest of what is now the Czech Republic.

In an effort to determine my actual haplogroup and whether my paternal line is English or Scottish, I've ordered a Y-DNA test from FamilyTree DNA. I haven't yet received the testing kit, but I will report back with the results once they become available.
 
How Celtic the Scots are is an interesting question and one that's important to me. I am of Scots ancestry on my father's side, and I know for a fact that my great-grandparents came from the lowlands in Scotland. Through paper-based records, I have traced my paternal line back approximately 200 years. However, I don't know whether my father's side of the family is Celtic. My mother's side definitely is, as her father was of Highland Scots ancestry and her mother was of Irish descent.

Interestingly enough, I stumbled across a surname-related resource on the web that says my surname is a locational surname and that people in Scotland with that surname are Celtic upland hill farmers. To the casual observer, though, my surname would appear to be quite Anglo-Saxon, and even downright Germanic.

From my research I have also discovered that my family name appears to have originated in southwestern Scotland, an area where many Ibero-Celtic tribes existed. The confounding factor is that my surname is found on both sides of the Scots-English border, and also in parts of eastern Scotland, and northeastern England not far from the border, and on top of that, the spelling of the surname on both sides of the border is the same. Most of eastern England is generally accepted to be predominantly Anglo-Saxon in terms of genetic make-up.

Adding further to the conundrum is the fact that my surname has an English and a Scottish branch, and neither is genetically related to the other. There is also some evidence to support the idea that the surname is derived from a middle-English word meaning 'stream', and at the same time, there is a Gaelic word that means the same thing and it has a spelling that is quite close to the spelling of my surname. As an aside, it's worth noting that Gaelic was widely spoken in the Scottish Lowlands up until 1100AD or so.

In an effort to begin to resolve the confusion, and to dip my toe into the complicated waters of DNA genealogy, I had my DNA tested through Connect my DNA. Connect my DNA doesn't claim to help you determine your ancestry or which haplogroup you belong to. Instead, it shows you where in the world you are most likely to find people whose genetic profiles are most similar to your own.

The results of the test were quite surprising. It shows that I am most similar to Macedonians, and least similar to Scots! The Irish come in fifth place amongst the ten countries with people who are genetically most similar to me, and that does make perfect sense, as I do have considerable Irish ancestry.

Insofar as the Connect my DNA test doesn't offer ancestral information, it does offer some tantalizing clues as to ancestry and haplogroup. If the test was indeed accurate with respect to the Macedonian DNA I might possess, then it leads me to suspect that my haplogroup might be E3b, or I2b. Both haplogroups have been found in Scotland but at very low frequencies, and Scottish men with those haplogroups are believed to be the descendants of Roman soldiers who were recruited in the Balkans and Macedonia, which is to say that they're not really Celtic at all. However, none of this excludes the possibility that my haplogroup may be the famous R1b that is associated with Celtic tribes in Britain, as R1b does exist in Macedonia at frequencies between 5 and 8%.

Something that further supports the possibility of a R1b haplogroup in my paternal line is that Austria and the Czech Republic also come up in my genetic profile results, but in second and third place. Hallstatt, Austria is the seat of the famous Celtic 'Hallstatt Culture' where the majority of the people there belonged to the R1b haplogroup and migrated to all parts of central Europe and Great Britain. Celtic tribespeople from the Hallstatt Culture were also found in the southwest of what is now the Czech Republic.

In an effort to determine my actual haplogroup and whether my paternal line is English or Scottish, I've ordered a Y-DNA test from FamilyTree DNA. I haven't yet received the testing kit, but I will report back with the results once they become available.

according to scottish historians and the 10 part documentary..history of Scotland, the only celtic part is from the Irish Gaelic which landed in western Scotland and fought the indigenous Picts in eastern Scotland...by 980AD they merged and created the scots
 
How Celtic the Scots are is an interesting question and one that's important to me. I am of Scots ancestry on my father's side, and I know for a fact that my great-grandparents came from the lowlands in Scotland. Through paper-based records, I have traced my paternal line back approximately 200 years. However, I don't know whether my father's side of the family is Celtic. My mother's side definitely is, as her father was of Highland Scots ancestry and her mother was of Irish descent.

As you're probably quite aware, the Celticity of the Scots depends greatly on the region of Scotland they are from, and even the type of Celtic that makes them up the most (Gaelic or Brythonic) depends on the region. However, as a rule of thumb, Scots are pretty reliably in-between the English and the Welsh in terms of amount of Celtic genetics. I've seen that pattern generally in Y-DNA distributions, full-genome proxy analyses (People of the British Isles and similar), and component-based autosomal analyses (like Eurogenes). Even with all that data, though, it's tough to narrow in on a percentage or anything like that.

Interestingly enough, I stumbled across a surname-related resource on the web that says my surname is a locational surname and that people in Scotland with that surname are Celtic upland hill farmers. To the casual observer, though, my surname would appear to be quite Anglo-Saxon, and even downright Germanic.

No idea what your surname is, but it's definitely possible for a surname to have multiple derivations. If your line is from the Scottish Lowlands, your surname might not be a good indicator one way or another.

From my research I have also discovered that my family name appears to have originated in southwestern Scotland, an area where many Ibero-Celtic tribes existed. The confounding factor is that my surname is found on both sides of the Scots-English border, and also in parts of eastern Scotland, and northeastern England not far from the border, and on top of that, the spelling of the surname on both sides of the border is the same. Most of eastern England is generally accepted to be predominantly Anglo-Saxon in terms of genetic make-up.

Northeastern England clusters more closely to SW Scotland and Cumbria than it does to East Anglia, though. The English/Scottish border shares a lot of culture and genetics across both sides of the border.

Also, Ibero-Celtic tribes? I'd say Brythonic Celtic tribes, mostly, like the Selgovae and so forth. Of course, surnames came long after the Classical era tribes.

In an effort to begin to resolve the confusion, and to dip my toe into the complicated waters of DNA genealogy, I had my DNA tested through Connect my DNA. Connect my DNA doesn't claim to help you determine your ancestry or which haplogroup you belong to. Instead, it shows you where in the world you are most likely to find people whose genetic profiles are most similar to your own.

The results of the test were quite surprising. It shows that I am most similar to Macedonians, and least similar to Scots! The Irish come in fifth place amongst the ten countries with people who are genetically most similar to me, and that does make perfect sense, as I do have considerable Irish ancestry.

I would put pretty much zero stock into results from Connect my DNA. They're not well regarded.

In an effort to determine my actual haplogroup and whether my paternal line is English or Scottish, I've ordered a Y-DNA test from FamilyTree DNA. I haven't yet received the testing kit, but I will report back with the results once they become available.

This is a much better idea. Keep us posted.
 
according to scottish historians and the 10 part documentary..history of Scotland, the only celtic part is from the Irish Gaelic which landed in western Scotland and fought the indigenous Picts in eastern Scotland...by 980AD they merged and created the scots

So you reject the idea that Picts were Celts? And what about the Brythonic tribes of Scotland?
 
So you reject the idea that Picts were Celts? And what about the Brythonic tribes of Scotland?

how old are the picts? You think the spoke celtic?

maybe you need to ask the people who put the program together....its not more than 2 years old IIRC
 
So you reject the idea that Picts were Celts? And what about the Brythonic tribes of Scotland?

What about some of the earlier names on the Pictish king list? Do they not appear to be non-Celtic and in fact non-IE in some cases? Perhaps the Picts of the historical period, were a blend of Brythonic and earlier non-IE influences.

As for Scottish surnames, I think they can sometimes be an unreliable guide to ancestry in the case of people who came into conflict with the government - some people changed their name because a sept or clan was proscribed. However, there are also lots of cases where a surname is a good guide to ancestry - it depends on which surname we're talking about.
 
how old are the picts? You think the spoke celtic?

maybe you need to ask the people who put the program together....its not more than 2 years old IIRC

The earliest reference to the term "Picts" (an exonym), I think, comes from the 4th century AD, only decades prior to the abandonment of Britain by the Romans. The tribal name "Caledonii" is attested from earlier (the earliest reference would be with Tacitus, from the late 1st century AD), and it is clearly Celtic, compare it with modern Breton "kalet" and Welsh "caled" ('durable', 'hard'). From what we do know from both Graeco-Roman and medieval Irish sources, the Picts spoke a Celtic language (these sources give a coherent picture), similar to the "Old" Brythonic that was spoken further south in Roman-occupied Britain. Goidelic, in contrast, wasn't spoken in Scotland until the Migration Period.
 
The earliest reference to the term "Picts" (an exonym), I think, comes from the 4th century AD, only decades prior to the abandonment of Britain by the Romans. The tribal name "Caledonii" is attested from earlier (the earliest reference would be with Tacitus, from the late 1st century AD), and it is clearly Celtic, compare it with modern Breton "kalet" and Welsh "caled" ('durable', 'hard'). From what we do know from both Graeco-Roman and medieval Irish sources, the Picts spoke a Celtic language (these sources give a coherent picture), similar to the "Old" Brythonic that was spoken further south in Roman-occupied Britain. Goidelic, in contrast, wasn't spoken in Scotland until the Migration Period.

ok

so, as some say, no association with pictones of france who where vasconic in langauge ? ( actually border vasconic , but could be vasconic )
 
ok

so, as some say, no association with pictones of france who where vasconic in langauge ? ( actually border vasconic , but could be vasconic )

Pictones spoke Vasconic, because they lived in Aquitania? Who says so? I said before in other threads, Romans were horrible ethnographers and the boundaries of the Roman provinces did not correspond with ethnic boundaries. The approximate boundary between Gaulish and Aquitanian (Old Basque) was the the bank of the river Garonne. The Pictones (around Poitiers) clearly lived north of the Garonne:

MapGaronne.jpg
 
If we assume that the name of the Picts has been given by the Romans (what I believe), the Pictones are not related to the Picts. However their name would come from the same IE root, which means "those who are painted", which could be also the meaning of the name of the Pictavi (in Iberia).
 
Scotland is probably the most heavily mixed Germanic-Celtic nation in the entire British isles.

throughout the entire nation this is true


all DNA studies show the population of the Lowlands are heavily mixed with Celtic and Germanic genetics from earlier times.

there is even a gradient between Eastern Lowlands, with higher Germanic types and SW Lowlands with higher historical Celtic lineages

but the Celtic lines are still fairly high in the East too.

The popultion is basically evenly mixed with Celtic and Germanic genes/ancestry


same can be said of the Highlands too. History and genetics show a majority of highlanders have heavily mied Norse (Germanic) and Celtic ancestry.

also, the typical Irish Y-DNA in Scotland, R1b-M222 is only moderate throughout the whole country, even I the western Isles, the pre-Gaelic R1b-L21, Scot's Modal is much more common and is very typical of all Scottish people even in the Lowlands.

it actually has the heaviest concentration in the Central Belt ad close to Glasgow.

this I the oldest R1b-L21 clad in Scotland and is just common among Lowlanders too, but so are other Celtic types though to typically come from a Brythonic/Cumbric speaking Celtic population in the Lowlands from earlier times.

if you look at the charts on this website for R1b-L21 maps and R1b-U106 and I1a and even R1b-S28 its clear that the Lowlands are heavily mixed with both Germanic and Celtic DNA and so are the Highlands.

going by genetic studies, Lowlanders have a lot f mixed Anglo-Celtic/Bernician-Celtic ancestry especially when compared to population of southern England, but also the Highlands have a lot f heavy Germanic-Celtic genetic mixture too, especially when compared to the genetic studies of Ireland and Wales.

Highland and Lowland culture has nothing to do with it.
Both Old Scots and Gaelic arrived in Scotland abut th same time, 4-5-6th century AD, so no one can say one is more or less Scottish than the other.Plus, again, the most common Y-DNA type n the highlands is that from the pre-Gaelic speaking Celtic people as well as being the most common type in the western Lowlands too

ad most experts think the Picts, who were just essentially native Britons who still painted/tattooed their bodies after the other Britons had stopped the practice, spoke a P-Celtic language but more similar to Old Gaulish than to Old British.

as for culture and genes, most Highlanders especially in the western Isles and Northern Isles come from greatly mixed Galloglass/Norse-Gaelic ancestry/genetic legacy and even in the Lowlands too where some people in Galloway still spoke Gaelic in the 1600's.


Scotland both Highland Lowland is the most heavily or evenly mixed Germanic-Celtic population in the British Isles.

plus there's been 3 major Celtic speaking populations who made their mark there in pre ad post Roman times which can still be easily seen today in terms of genetic ancestry and there's been 2 major Germanic speaking populations who also made their mark which again can still be easily seen today in Scotland and there's not one area of Scotland or it's people that has been largely untouched by that, whether Bernician or Viking-Norse.

the only major difference is, the Gaelic invaders from Ireland became the dominant culture/language of the Highlands, even if not the dominant genetic legacy, but only because a Pictish prince was brought up in ancient Ulster where it safer for him at the time , and then brought that culture with him when he went back to Scotland/Pictland to reclaim his throne .


and the Bernicians, largely mixed with the native Cumbric population of the Lowlands after gaining control of the region but also the Britons of Strathclyde in the western Lowlands remained a strong kingdom/people until almost the time of the Norman Conquest in England.

plus in the later stages of that kingdom an that area they were being mixed with Gaelic Scots and speaking a mixture of Cumbric and Gaelic when the Bernicians of the Lothians finally took over control of the western lowlands an then eventually Old Scots became the dominant language.

but in places like Galloway they largely resisted their influence for a long time and again part of the population there even spoke Gaelic until the 1600's.


Scotland and its people are heavily mixed with Germanic and Celtic ancestry but like any other place or country/nation in the British isles it also depends on where you go in Scotland because different areas have their own unique or different history and population movements/people

plus I don't think seriously truly know just how many surnames with a Celtic or Gaelic origin became heavily anglicized in later times for so many reasons.

and th fact that the language of the Picts became Gaelicized
even though it was extremely rare,sometimes surnames even became Gaelicized in the Lowlands in places like Galloway

but also many Highland Families or Clans took their name from or were named after a person, from Old Norse or a Viking warrior nd from the Picts too

Vikings /Norse warriors always mixed and became part of the larger native culture in the places they went.

they did it in Ireland and England too but they didn't leave much a genetic/DNA legacy in the Irish but they left a huge genetic/DNA legacy in Scottish people, while adopting Gaelic/Celtc culture and intermarrying heavily with them, both Highland and Lowland, the did the exact same in England wth Engish people too
 
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I recently got my FTDNA 37-marker test results back and they show that I belong to the R1b-M269 (Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype). I realize you can't do much with just 37 markers, but since several people who share my surname and belong to the same surname project have tested as R-L21, I thought I would go looking for typical R1b-L21 markers. In my searches, I came across a page devoted to something called The Little Scottish Cluster and found the markers posted there and compared with typical markers for the Little Scottish Cluster.

It turns out that most of the markers I have match the typical markers for R-L21, so I've got a strong suspicion now that I'm possibly L21 in terms of a terminal SNP subgroup.

It is interesting to note that most of my distant genetic matches in M269 are coming in from the midwesterly part of southern England, Wales and even Germany, with only 67 matches from Scotland. The presence of matches in these three areas seems to be consistent with the expected migration pattern of R-L21 in Britain, given that the subgroup is believed to have emerged in the Celtic areas of southwestern Germany.

I'm going to be ordering a 67-marker test and a L21 test from FTDNA to nail down my hypothesis a little more conclusively.
 
My bold. So if one is an L21+ Scot, is there anyway to determine whether one's Y-DNA is Germanic or Celt?:unsure:

Check for downstream mutations. For example, if you have M222, your y-DNA is almost certainly Celtic.
 
I am quite sure there was a massive migration of English up into Scotland at one point, which would have been after the influence of Denmark and the Anglo Saxons, into the Lowlands. There was also a large amount of migration between Flanders and Netherlands for the weaving industry. There is a "Belgium Origin" club for DNA and ancestry interested people from Scotland, with names like Flemming being taken as signs of Belgium heritage.
 
according to scottish historians and the 10 part documentary..history of Scotland, the only celtic part is from the Irish Gaelic which landed in western Scotland and fought the indigenous Picts in eastern Scotland...by 980AD they merged and created the scots

Not according to any Scottish historians I know of! There is no proof of any mass migration or invasion by Gaels in to Scotland, more likely the Argyll and the Isles were closer to the North of Ireland in terms of both culture and language and long term travel back and forth between the two for a long time. Also, surely the Brythonic tribes in Strathclyde, Galloway and the Borders would be considered Celtic as would the Picts in the North and East?
 
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So you reject the idea that Picts were Celts? And what about the Brythonic tribes of Scotland?

The Picts were a mix of various Brythonic tribes, just separated from the Romanised tribes further south and west.. who as you suggest would also have been Celtic.
 
Gaels and Picts would have been R1b regardless; as where those "isolated and different" basque people with their heavy R1b.

Where is the evidence for this?
 
Not according to any Scottish historians I know of! There is no proof of any mass migration or invasion by Gaels in to Scotland, more likely the Argyll and the Isles were closer to the North of Ireland in terms of both culture and language and long term travel back and forth between the two for a long time. Also, surly the Brythonic tribes in Strathclyde, Galloway and the Borders would be considered Celtic as would the Picts in the North and East?

I think R1b-M222 represents evidence of (but not absolute proof) of Gaelic presence in Scotland. In fact, we see M222 more frequently in western Scotland, which is consistent with an Irish origin in the same way that the greater presence of I1 on the east coast of Britain and on the Orkney and Shetland islands suggests a significant Viking presence there, which matches up with recorded history that does speak of significant Viking settlements in those areas.
 
I think R1b-M222 represents evidence of (but not absolute proof) of Gaelic presence in Scotland. In fact, we see M222 more frequently in western Scotland, which is consistent with an Irish origin in the same way that the greater presence of I1 on the east coast of Britain and on the Orkney and Shetland islands suggests a significant Viking presence there, which matches up with recorded history that does speak of significant Viking settlements in those areas.
Maybe Robert... I am not denying the Gaelic presence in Scotland but rather that it may have been present for a long before the 5th century and that the people of Argyll and the Hebrides shared cultural and genetic heritige with Northern Ireland. There is no archaeological or placename evidence of a migration or invasion so it is more likely that people had been travelling back and forth in both directions for a long time.
 

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