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    Talking Scots, how Celtic are they?

    So i was wondering, based on studies of Haplogroups, is there anyway to determine how Celtic Scotland is? Does anyone have information on this please?

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    Western Scotland was invaded by the Gaels in the Vth century. A people from Ireland who spoke a Q-Celtic language (Gaelic) while the previous people of Scotland (the Picts) spoke a P-Celtic language like others Brittons and like some continental celts (Gaulish, lepontic...).
    Most Scottish men carry the haplogroup R1b (Proto-celt), especially its subclade R1b L21 (like most Irish men)
    Eastern Scotland, the area that was the least settled by the Gaels, shows the highest frequencies in GB of R1b U152 (Alpine and gallic celts) and has significant rates of R1b U106 (Germanic). It is not easy to know wether those two subclades of R1b predate or not the Germanic invasions (Angles...).
    Indeed, Scotland got several genetic influx since the early middle ages, bringing germanic haplogroup such as I1, I2a2 (old I2b), R1a (not just germanic but present in Scandinavia) and R1b U106.
    During the germanic invasions, the Angles settled in Southern Scotland, that's why Scottish language is very close to the English one.
    Later the Vikings from Norway settled in the North, South west and in the islands (Shetlands, Orkney).
    So Scotland is mostly celtic but with strong germanic areas (Lowlands, North, Orkney, Shetlands).

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Western Scotland was invaded by the Gaels in the Vth century. A people from Ireland who spoke a Q-Celtic language (Gaelic) while the previous people of Scotland (the Picts) spoke a P-Celtic language like others Brittons and like some continental celts (Gaulish, lepontic...).
    Most Scottish men carry the haplogroup R1b (Proto-celt), especially its subclade R1b L21 (like most Irish men)
    Eastern Scotland, the area that was the least settled by the Gaels, shows the highest frequencies in GB of R1b U152 (Alpine and gallic celts) and has significant rates of R1b U106 (Germanic). It is not easy to know wether those two subclades of R1b predate or not the Germanic invasions (Angles...).
    Indeed, Scotland got several genetic influx since the early middle ages, bringing germanic haplogroup such as I1, I2a2 (old I2b), R1a (not just germanic but present in Scandinavia) and R1b U106.
    During the germanic invasions, the Angles settled in Southern Scotland, that's why Scottish language is very close to the English one.
    Later the Vikings from Norway settled in the North, South west and in the islands (Shetlands, Orkney).
    So Scotland is mostly celtic but with strong germanic areas (Lowlands, North, Orkney, Shetlands).
    True, but L21 is hardly exclusive to Celts; it is also widespread in Germany, Norway, Denmark and Sweden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCoutts View Post
    True, but L21 is hardly exclusive to Celts; it is also widespread in Germany, Norway, Denmark and Sweden.
    It may have something to do with the Beakers. Does anyone have a link with a recent map of L21 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Western Scotland was invaded by the Gaels in the Vth century. A people from Ireland who spoke a Q-Celtic language (Gaelic) while the previous people of Scotland (the Picts) spoke a P-Celtic language like others Brittons and like some continental celts (Gaulish, lepontic...).
    Most Scottish men carry the haplogroup R1b (Proto-celt), especially its subclade R1b L21 (like most Irish men)
    Eastern Scotland, the area that was the least settled by the Gaels, shows the highest frequencies in GB of R1b U152 (Alpine and gallic celts) and has significant rates of R1b U106 (Germanic). It is not easy to know wether those two subclades of R1b predate or not the Germanic invasions (Angles...).
    Indeed, Scotland got several genetic influx since the early middle ages, bringing germanic haplogroup such as I1, I2a2 (old I2b), R1a (not just germanic but present in Scandinavia) and R1b U106.
    During the germanic invasions, the Angles settled in Southern Scotland, that's why Scottish language is very close to the English one.
    Later the Vikings from Norway settled in the North, South west and in the islands (Shetlands, Orkney).
    So Scotland is mostly celtic but with strong germanic areas (Lowlands, North, Orkney, Shetlands).
    you are right - just details: SW Scotland previously inhabited was gaelicized enough and gaelic was yet spoken in some part of Galloway about the 18°C and even 19°C.. if my readings are right - before the population spoke cumbrian, close to welsh as you know -
    Angles took the SE Scotland - today Lowlands/Lallands are inhabited (except the Lothians around Edinburgh, more akin to the central and eastern "angle" Borders) by a mix where Celts and pre-Celts have far more important imput than Germanics as a whole: very close to the Black Country West to Midlands of Birmignham, where Celts too played a big role in population (Welshes, ancient and new coming back!)- it is true too that English "emigrants" come rather to Edinburgh when Irish workers came rather around Glasgow, reinforcing effects of the Past -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    you are right - just details: SW Scotland previously inhabited was gaelicized enough and gaelic was yet spoken in some part of Galloway about the 18°C and even 19°C.. if my readings are right - before the population spoke cumbrian, close to welsh as you know -
    Angles took the SE Scotland - today Lowlands/Lallands are inhabited (except the Lothians around Edinburgh, more akin to the central and eastern "angle" Borders) by a mix where Celts and pre-Celts have far more important imput than Germanics as a whole: very close to the Black Country West to Midlands of Birmignham, where Celts too played a big role in population (Welshes, ancient and new coming back!)- it is true too that English "emigrants" come rather to Edinburgh when Irish workers came rather around Glasgow, reinforcing effects of the Past -
    It looks like R1b-L21 is around 20-25% along many parts of the Welsh borders, only about 10% higher than it is in the rest of central and south-east, eastern England, the English-Welsh border regions would seem to be quite a substantial barrier, even though they have changed a lot over the centuries:

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    It looks like R1b-L21 is around 20-25% along many parts of the Welsh borders, only about 10% higher than it is in the rest of central and south-east, eastern England, the English-Welsh border regions would seem to be quite a substantial barrier, even though they have changed a lot over the centuries:

    your absolutely right here - but for Lowlands and Black Country I was just speaking about populations weights in general: autosomals - yet there are big enough differences between West England and East England for males genes, but too, seemingly, East England received more germanic females imput than West England where the germanic imput seems more males transmitted - it is to be checked, it 's true! in Llanidloes central eastern Wales we have apparently a good example of male Angle or Saxon strong imput far in West, when the global autosomals situation surely does not show so high levels of germanic autosomals (is it an hazard if, even in a very local countryside welsh language had been left when welsh was still spoken not long ago in Oswestry?
    by the way, should you be kind enough to communicate us the percentages this map is founded upon? (absolute or relative %s and so on...)
    thanks beforehand
    &: and a smaller taste of L21 can conceal a stronger proportion of Y-R1b of other sorts without being itself of "germanic" origin as U106...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    your absolutely right here - but for Lowlands and Black Country I was just speaking about populations weights in general: autosomals - yet there are big enough differences between West England and East England for males genes, but too, seemingly, East England received more germanic females imput than West England where the germanic imput seems more males transmitted - it is to be checked, it 's true! in Llanidloes central eastern Wales we have apparently a good example of male Angle or Saxon strong imput far in West, when the global autosomals situation surely does not show so high levels of germanic autosomals (is it an hazard if, even in a very local countryside welsh language had been left when welsh was still spoken not long ago in Oswestry?
    by the way, should you be kind enough to communicate us the percentages this map is founded upon? (absolute or relative %s and so on...)
    thanks beforehand
    &: and a smaller taste of L21 can conceal a stronger proportion of Y-R1b of other sorts without being itself of "germanic" origin as U106...
    It was apparently from a Welsh tv program, in which they tested people both sides of the border, i do not have the name of this tv program, but i will look for it soon. I would expect it to be at least a reasonably reliable source given that it's being shown on TV, if i can find the academics behind it i will.

    Ahh yeah if you are talking about autosomal dna i agree. I guess it makes sense that the female 'imports' would be mostly apparent in the areas of primary settlement and regions that were Anglo-Saxon during the period over which this migration took place. And the men may have moved a bit more during the secondary phase where the west was conquered/colonized from the eastern territories rather than directly from abroad.

    Although the 'big red blob' in POBI does extent to an area close to the Welsh borders, these regions that are about 20-25% in L21 look to correspond with areas in which the genetic cluster is between the big red cluster and the Welsh clusters. There was a fair bit of Welsh settlement in these parts of England in the medieval period and also the border was very fluid for a long time, so it's not surprising that this area is an intermediary between the Welsh and central England.

    It's certainly true in my family, my grandmother is noticeably more western than the rest of my family, and about half of her ancestry is from western areas of England (Cheshire and Devon).

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    Thanks for your reply. How frequent is R1b L21 and how much of the overall % of R1b in Scotland is made up of R1b L21?
    It would be possible would it not for someone to look at invasion areas and the rates of R1b U106 to determine whether it would be mostly from Germanic invaders? Are there any graphs of the subclades of R1b in Scotland? I think it would be very interesting to look at. Also, i've read on here about a rare haplogroup found in Scotland (and Northern Ireland, presumably from the Ulster Scots) but i cannot remember its name, would you possibly be able to tell me anything on that? Sorry for the vagueness. I think it was I2-something disles, or something like that.

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    according to David Faux, the highest U-152 is in Northern Italy and not in Austria or switzerland

    http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

    see page 5 and 6 in relation to scotland



    also
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-03/1300461500

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    according to David Faux, the highest U-152 is in Northern Italy and not in Austria or switzerland

    http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

    see page 5 and 6 in relation to scotland



    also
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-03/1300461500

    The R1b U152 found in Eastern Scotland is related to that found in the Netherland, it is L2 if I remember

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    according to David Faux, the highest U-152 is in Northern Italy and not in Austria or switzerland

    http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

    see page 5 and 6 in relation to scotland



    also
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-03/1300461500
    Thank you for the links

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    You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project. It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.

    There are about 9% of Germanic haplogroup I1. The rest is less clear. Most of the R1a (8.5%) and I2b (4%) is probably Germanic too, although some of it might be Celtic. Haplogroup Q (0.5%) is surely of Scandinavian origin.

    R1b is mixed Celtic and Germanic. Here is a small analysis.

    Not all R1b members tested for subclades, but among those who did I counted 66 Germanic R1b1a2a1a1a, aka R1b-U106 (12.5%) and 470 predominantly Celtic R1b1a2a1a1b (87.5%). The latter includes :

    - 60 Irish-Scottish R1b-M222 (12%)
    - 31 purely Scottish R1b-S68 (6%)
    - 31 Italo-Gaulish R1b-U152 (6%)
    - 11 mostly Franco-Iberian R1b-SRY2627 (2%)

    The others are undefined. There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

    Within R1b, 12.5% is Germanic R1b-U106 and 12.5% is Germanic R1b-L21. One fourth of R1b is Germanic, and three fourth Celtic. As 72.5% of Scots are R1b, it means that about 18% of all Scottish haplogroups are Germanic R1b.

    The total for Germanic lineages (I1, I2b, Q, R1a and Germanic R1b) is therefore about 40%.

    Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T), which account for 4.5% of Scottish lineages, might have come to Britain during the Neolithic, or through continental Celts, Romans and Germanic tribes. It's probably a bit of everything, though nobody knows in which proportion. Let's say that 2.5% is of Germanic origin to keep the proportions with average haplogroup frequencies in the Netherlands and Norway, the source countries of the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings in Scotland.

    This gives us 42.5% of lineages of Germanic origin. The rest (57.5%) can be considered Celtic.
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    On skadi forum there is a thread called "Is Scotland Germanic" with 55 pages.

    I didn't read all the replies but conclusions are that British people (including Irish) as a whole are a mix of Celtic and Germanic people.

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=40754

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    On skadi forum there is a thread called "Is Scotland Germanic" with 55 pages.

    I didn't read all the replies but conclusions are that British people (including Irish) as a whole are a mix of Celtic and Germanic people.

    http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=40754
    I wouldn't trust the consensus on Skadi (you'll quickly realize that it's a pretty dumb forum if you browse around a bit), but if that's the consensus they're getting at, then they're getting at the truth. Genetically, there is a a continuum in Britain, with the most Celtic people being in Ireland, the Scottish Highlands, Wales, and Cornwall. The most Germanic are around East Anglia and Kent. The rest, including Lowland Scots, are well mixed. Culture, of course, is another question, but tends to reflect genetics for the most part in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I wouldn't trust the consensus on Skadi (you'll quickly realize that it's a pretty dumb forum if you browse around a bit), but if that's the consensus they're getting at, then they're getting at the truth. Genetically, there is a a continuum in Britain, with the most Celtic people being in Ireland, the Scottish Highlands, Wales, and Cornwall. The most Germanic are around East Anglia and Kent. The rest, including Lowland Scots, are well mixed. Culture, of course, is another question, but tends to reflect genetics for the most part in this case.
    From what I read, Eastern Lowlands are as Germanic as East Anglia if not more.
    (you can also check the new I1 map of Maciamo)

    You say that it's a pretty dumb forum but this thread if you read some of the replies is not more "dumb" or "immature" than some of the discussions in Eupedia (especially when it comes to Spanish genetic)

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    From what I read, Eastern Lowlands are as Germanic as East Anglia if not more.
    (you can also check the new I1 map of Maciamo)
    Keep in mind that we expect less I1 in East Anglia than in the Eastern Lowlands even if their Germanic-ness is identical, because they were settled by different types of Germanic peoples (Scotland getting more North Germanic peoples with lots of I1 and East Anglia getting more West Germanic peoples with lots of R1b-U106). But even with that said, you could be right about the gradient being starker in Scotland than in England. I haven't looked closely at distributions in the Lowlands, could they be the most Germanic place in Britain?

    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    You say that it's a pretty dumb forum but this thread if you read some of the replies is not more "dumb" or "immature" than some of the discussions in Eupedia (especially when it comes to Spanish genetic)
    OK, but for every decent thread like the one you linked, there's one like this, hence my skepticism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project. It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.

    There are about 9% of Germanic haplogroup I1. The rest is less clear. Most of the R1a (8.5%) and I2b (4%) is probably Germanic too, although some of it might be Celtic. Haplogroup Q (0.5%) is surely of Scandinavian origin.

    R1b is mixed Celtic and Germanic. Here is a small analysis.

    Not all R1b members tested for subclades, but among those who did I counted 66 Germanic R1b1a2a1a1a, aka R1b-U106 (12.5%) and 470 predominantly Celtic R1b1a2a1a1b (87.5%). The latter includes :

    - 60 Irish-Scottish R1b-M222 (12%)
    - 31 purely Scottish R1b-S68 (6%)
    - 31 Italo-Gaulish R1b-U152 (6%)
    - 11 mostly Franco-Iberian R1b-SRY2627 (2%)

    The others are undefined. There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

    Within R1b, 12.5% is Germanic R1b-U106 and 12.5% is Germanic R1b-L21. One fourth of R1b is Germanic, and three fourth Celtic. As 72.5% of Scots are R1b, it means that about 18% of all Scottish haplogroups are Germanic R1b.

    The total for Germanic lineages (I1, I2b, Q, R1a and Germanic R1b) is therefore about 40%.

    Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T), which account for 4.5% of Scottish lineages, might have come to Britain during the Neolithic, or through continental Celts, Romans and Germanic tribes. It's probably a bit of everything, though nobody knows in which proportion. Let's say that 2.5% is of Germanic origin to keep the proportions with average haplogroup frequencies in the Netherlands and Norway, the source countries of the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings in Scotland.

    This gives us 42.5% of lineages of Germanic origin. The rest (57.5%) can be considered Celtic.
    So almost half of Scots are Germanic? I was'nt aware of that. Mind you, a lot of my closer matches on GeneBase are English or Germanic...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T)
    is G2a middle eastern or caucasian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    is G2a middle eastern or caucasian?
    "Middle Eastern" is such a foggy term in my opinion. G2a probably originated in either Anatolia or the Caucasus, however. It's clear though that it did not originate in the Fertile Crescent or the Levante.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project. It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.

    There are about 9% of Germanic haplogroup I1. The rest is less clear. Most of the R1a (8.5%) and I2b (4%) is probably Germanic too, although some of it might be Celtic. Haplogroup Q (0.5%) is surely of Scandinavian origin.

    R1b is mixed Celtic and Germanic. Here is a small analysis.

    Not all R1b members tested for subclades, but among those who did I counted 66 Germanic R1b1a2a1a1a, aka R1b-U106 (12.5%) and 470 predominantly Celtic R1b1a2a1a1b (87.5%). The latter includes :

    - 60 Irish-Scottish R1b-M222 (12%)
    - 31 purely Scottish R1b-S68 (6%)
    - 31 Italo-Gaulish R1b-U152 (6%)
    - 11 mostly Franco-Iberian R1b-SRY2627 (2%)

    The others are undefined. There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

    Within R1b, 12.5% is Germanic R1b-U106 and 12.5% is Germanic R1b-L21. One fourth of R1b is Germanic, and three fourth Celtic. As 72.5% of Scots are R1b, it means that about 18% of all Scottish haplogroups are Germanic R1b.

    The total for Germanic lineages (I1, I2b, Q, R1a and Germanic R1b) is therefore about 40%.

    Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T), which account for 4.5% of Scottish lineages, might have come to Britain during the Neolithic, or through continental Celts, Romans and Germanic tribes. It's probably a bit of everything, though nobody knows in which proportion. Let's say that 2.5% is of Germanic origin to keep the proportions with average haplogroup frequencies in the Netherlands and Norway, the source countries of the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings in Scotland.

    This gives us 42.5% of lineages of Germanic origin. The rest (57.5%) can be considered Celtic.
    My bold. So if one is an L21+ Scot, is there anyway to determine whether one's Y-DNA is Germanic or Celt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCoutts View Post
    My bold. So if one is an L21+ Scot, is there anyway to determine whether one's Y-DNA is Germanic or Celt?
    Check for downstream mutations. For example, if you have M222, your y-DNA is almost certainly Celtic.

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    [QUOTE=Maciamo;376871]You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project. It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.


    There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

    sorry, Maciamo: maybe this post of yours is old now and I'm late, but where did you pick that R-L21 was found in the same proportions in the Netherlands and Scandinavia than R-U106!?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You might want to check FTDNA's Scotland Y-DNA Project. It is so far the largest and most detailed database for Scottish Y-DNA.

    There are about 9% of Germanic haplogroup I1. The rest is less clear. Most of the R1a (8.5%) and I2b (4%) is probably Germanic too, although some of it might be Celtic. Haplogroup Q (0.5%) is surely of Scandinavian origin.

    R1b is mixed Celtic and Germanic. Here is a small analysis.

    Not all R1b members tested for subclades, but among those who did I counted 66 Germanic R1b1a2a1a1a, aka R1b-U106 (12.5%) and 470 predominantly Celtic R1b1a2a1a1b (87.5%). The latter includes :

    - 60 Irish-Scottish R1b-M222 (12%)
    - 31 purely Scottish R1b-S68 (6%)
    - 31 Italo-Gaulish R1b-U152 (6%)
    - 11 mostly Franco-Iberian R1b-SRY2627 (2%)

    The others are undefined. There are 205 R1b-L21 (38%), which is the most common kind of R1b in Britain. It is found all along the Atlantic coast from Iberia to Norway, as well as in Germany. It could be just as well Celtic or Germanic. In the Netherlands and Scandinavia, L21 is found is approximately the same proportions as U106. So it is fair to assess that 12.5% of Scottish L21 is Germanic and 25.5% is Celtic.

    Within R1b, 12.5% is Germanic R1b-U106 and 12.5% is Germanic R1b-L21. One fourth of R1b is Germanic, and three fourth Celtic. As 72.5% of Scots are R1b, it means that about 18% of all Scottish haplogroups are Germanic R1b.

    The total for Germanic lineages (I1, I2b, Q, R1a and Germanic R1b) is therefore about 40%.

    Middle Eastern haplogroups (G2a, J2, E1b1b, T), which account for 4.5% of Scottish lineages, might have come to Britain during the Neolithic, or through continental Celts, Romans and Germanic tribes. It's probably a bit of everything, though nobody knows in which proportion. Let's say that 2.5% is of Germanic origin to keep the proportions with average haplogroup frequencies in the Netherlands and Norway, the source countries of the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings in Scotland.

    This gives us 42.5% of lineages of Germanic origin. The rest (57.5%) can be considered Celtic.
    I2b Germanic ??? BTW - why do you think that 100% of I1 and 100% of R1b-U106 was Germanic? Maybe some of it was Celtic ???

    Large parts of continental Germanic groups are themselves descendants of Non-Germanic populations assimilated / absorbed into Germanic-speakers.

    So how do you count - for example - a Germanized Gallo-Roman who migrated to Britain? Do you count such guys as Germanic ???

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    I do not understand that the Scandinavians brought the haplogroup Q to Scotland.
    This must be a mistake. How did the haplogroup Q arrive in Scandinavia?
    By birds? The haplogroup Q is totallt absent in Denmark, Germany and the
    Benelux.

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