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Thread: Dodecad project : highest percentage for each admixture

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm2 View Post
    Please, calm down. It's from PhD Dr. Doug McDonald, a university professor. But if you don't like it, there are others from Dodecad or Eurogenes :

    http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1...teurasia12.gif

    http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o...al_Eurasia.png


    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_6XAIk6ygt...s1600/waeu.png
    Thank you. But can you give me some sources, please. Where do you have this charts from?? They say nothing about Africans...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No, Turks are even closer to Russians than Georgians. Turks have much less West Asian component in them than Georgians. Maybe the CENTRAL Asian component (mongoloid) connects Turks with Russians ???

    I smell some fraud or he made big mistakes, but it's ok with me...
    Good point. Russians carry some Mongoloid genes, and if you put this together with the European and Mongoloid genes of the Turks, the similarity can be higher than the one showed by Georgians.

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    Btw on this map you can clearly see that the distance between Mozabite and GE (I suppose Georgia) and between Mozabite and ES (I suppose Spain) is - almost - the same.

    West Asian (Georgian) Adygei and Lezgin are even further away from Mozabite (Berbers) than Spain from Mozabite (Berbers) ...

    http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1...teurasia12.gif


    Some charts are even contradicting each other, lol...

    Notice that some charts also say the West Asians are closer to East Europeans, than West Europeans to East Europeans.

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    As more samples I can collect from 23andme, more clarified will be this question.

    It's party time now. See you guys ;)

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    We have some Mongol shamans in South Siberia, they are relatives of the Turks. Turks in comments to video totally recognise it.
    And Georgians have nothing in common with Africa, they have a lot in common with Turks, Armenians, Azeris. Their distinctive feature is a big sharp nose. In Russia only minority of Northern Ossetians have a lot in common with Georgians because they live on the Caucasus.
    Do not forget that there are many natural obstacles for DNA distribution: Black Sea, Bosporus Strait, hardly penetrable Caucasus Mountains, scorching deserts of Central Asia etc...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Matching phenotypes and genetic admixtures

    I am really interested to see what people with a high percentage of one admixture look like.

    The highest national average of "West European" is 68.5%, which is the average for Irish Dodecad members. But a handful of people listed in the spreadsheet exceed 70%, and one even reaches 75.1% (DOD298). This makes me wonder what is the highest percentage that a single individual could have (without resorting to intentional cross-breeding to recreate a 100% West European individual). If there was someone with over 90% of West European admixture, I infer that he or she would look quite close to the archetypal ancestral population of "West European" (read North-West European, or maybe R1b Proto-Indo-European).

    The pure East European type is even more elusive. Lithuanians score the highest (61.5%). Only 4 project members exceed 60%, with a maximum of 67.8% (DOD468).

    The Mediterranean admixture doesn't reach more than 55% of any individual's genes, and usually in the isolated Sardinians.

    It's not the case of all admixtures. The 'Northeast Asian' reaches 98.5% in the Koryaks, the 'Southeast Asian" approaches 92% in the Dai and Lahu, the Mbuti Pygmies are 98.3% 'Paleo African', North Kannadi are 81.6% 'South Asian'. In all these populations it should be possible to find individuals with 100% of a single admixture element. In others, I expect to find individuals with over 90% of one component (e.g. the Mozabites who are 76.3% 'Northwest African', Georgians who are 72.3% 'West Asian', and Saudis who are 71.5% 'Southwest Asian'). So we can have a good idea of what phenotypes match these genetic components.

    It's ironic that it is for the three European components that the maximum percentages are the lowest.

    Looking for the origins of the three European populations

    So how comes that Europeans are mixed, and who were the three original populations from whom we inherited most of our genome ?

    Mediterranean

    It's easy to see why no population has kept a high level of Mediterranean genes with all the migrations that took place from all sides the Mediterranean since the Mesolithic. One might wonder if this "Mediterranean" component is even a coherent genetic element, as it is found in such disparate populations as Moroccans, Sardinians, Scandinavians or Iraqi, and pretty much everywhere in between. If it is, it could be the remnant of an aboriginal Paleolithic European population, men carrying Y-haplogroup I lineages, or even an older population whose Y-DNA has all but disappeared (hg F or IJ ?) because their genes were passed only by women. It actually would make sense if the Mediterranean element represented the IJ branch of the Y-chromosomal tree, as it is as common in the Middle East as in Europe. In other words, it would be a very ancient population, perhaps encompassing all the mtDNA subclades of H and V (and perhaps other haplogroups too).

    This would explain why the Mediterranean element is so widespread geographically, but also why it reaches such high levels in northern Europe: nearly 25% in the Dutch and Orcadians, 20-22% in the Irish, British and Germans, and around 15% among Scandinavians. If Neolithic farmers reached northern Europe, they were probably more West Asian, and the West Asian element ranges from 4 to 7% in Scandinavia and the British Isles, which fits better with the percentage of haplogroups G2a and J2.

    Let's take a concrete example. Belarusians and Poles have considerably more Mediterranean admixture than Lithuanians (14% and 17% against 6.5%, respectively). They also have a bit more West Asian and Southwest Asian (total 2.3% for Belarusians, 3.8% for Poles and 0.5% for Lithuanians). All three have a lot of R1a and some R1b. The main difference is that Belarusians and Poles have considerably more haplogroup I2 and J (20.5% and 13.5% against 7% for Lithuanians) as well as Neolithic haplogroups G2a and E1b1b (total 10.5% and 7.5% against 1.5% for Lithuania). It doesn't match exactly, but there is a trend. Haplogroups G2a and E1b1b are higher than the autosomal DNA from the Middle-East, but that's probably because they were diluted on the way by mixing with other European populations in the Balkans, since it was typically hunter-gatherers who sent their women to marry male farmers rather than the other way round (therefore the Y-DNA remained Middle Eastern, but the mtDNA became European).

    North-West European

    The West European component of the Dodecad Project being really a North-West European (NWE) one, I will use this denomination here.

    Based on my analysis, the NWE component correlates best with haplogroups R1b1b2a1 and I1.

    Haplogroup I1 is a special case within haplogroup IJ because it experienced a dramatic bottleneck in the late Neolithic/early Bronze Age that surely had a serious impact on its autosomes. If the re-expansion of I1 with the flourishing of the early Germanic culture happened after the last I1 lineages blended with an R1b1b2a1 dominated population (such as in the Netherlands or Denmark, cradles of the Germanic civilisation), then it makes sense that we should see a correlation between the percentage of I1+R1b and the North-West European component.

    In almost every case, we notice an imbalance towards a higher percentage of R1b than actual autosomes (except in Scandinavia and in Romania, where it is matches fairly well).

    Ireland has 86% but 68.5% of NWE.
    Britain has 81% of R1b+I1 but 66% of NWE.
    Germany has 60% of R1b+I1 but 53% of NWE.
    France has 70% of R1b+I1 but 52% of NWE.
    Spain has 70% of R1b+I1 but 42% of NWE.
    Portugal has 58% of R1b+I1 but 40% of NWE.

    Why is that so ? I believe it has to do with the quick replacement of native lineages by R1b during the Bronze Age and the genetic predisposition of R1b to father more sons than other haplogroups.

    This imbalance is particularly obvious in South Italy and Turkey, where the percentage of R1b is about twice higher than the NWE component. This is simply because a lot of R1b isn't R1b1b2a1, but older Middle Eastern subclades, that are not associated with the the spread of the same people (namely the Proto-Indo-Europeans).

    The percentage of mtDNA lineages should balance the difference between autosomal and Y-DNA ratios.

    Eastern Europe is the only region where the NWE autosomes exceed R1b+I1, and sometimes to a 3:1 ratio.

    Belarus has 13% of R1b+I1 but 28% of NWE
    Russia has 11% of R1b+I1 but 32% of NWE
    Poland has 23% of R1b+I1 but 35% of NWE
    Hungary has 25% of R1b+I1 but 37% of NWE

    I believe this is because R1b1b2a1 originated in Eastern Europe, in the Pontic steppes north of the Black Sea, expanded to Central, Northern, Western and Southern Europe, but was ultimately replaced by R1a tribes from northern Russia (the Balto-Slavs) and Central Asia (Scythians, Bulgars, etc.), who killed many of the R1b men left in Eastern Europe, and took their women (the same process as R1b people did when they invaded Europe). This is why the percentage of R1b has diminished in Eastern Europe, but NWE autosomes survived through maternal lineages.


    East European

    The percentage of East European component matches almost exactly the frequencies for haplogroup R1a. It's truly amazing : 2-3% in Ireland, 5-6% in the Netherlands, 6-7% in Turkey, 12% in Greece, 17% in Germany, 22% in Romania, around 30% in Hungary, around 50% in Poland, Belarus and Russia... Only Scandinavia has a bit more R1a (28% in Norway, 19% in Sweden) than East European autosomes (9.5% and 13%), perhaps due to a founder effect.

    The case of Finland

    One major exception is Finland, which is a very peculiar case indeed. Finnish people are overwhelmingly European autosomally (93%, against 6% Siberian), and do look Northern European, but their Y-DNA is in great part the Siberian N1c1 (nearly 60%). The best explanation is that these N1c1 lineages were actually for the biggest part autosomally European when they arrived in Finland. As both R1a and R1b are low in Finland (7.5% and 3.5%) but the East European autosomes reach 33% and the North-West European 53%, it means that N1c1 lineages are hiding both East and North-West European autosomes.


    It is usually assumed that N1c1 came to Finland from Siberia, but what if it first reach Fennoscandia, then recolonised Finland from northern Sweden, bringing I1, R1a, R1b and Swedish N1c1 in the operation ? The whole group would have been autosomally close to the Swedes, and a founder effect among the ruling class would have spread N1c1 with European autosomes. Sweden itself has only 0.5% of Northeast Asian/Siberian autosomes but 9% of N1c1, mostly concentrated in the north of the country, where an expansion towards Finland would have been most likely. The 6% of Siberian autosomes in Finland would represent the N1c1 that was already in Finland before the recolonisation from northern Sweden.
    I agree somewhat but I think "mediterranean" equates to haplogroup I and all it's subclades, pure I. I1 is going to be genetically closer to other I's then R's, so I'm saying even I1 will be included in mediterranean, you can see a slight amount of mediterranean in scandinavian autosomal which could easily be their I1.
    what dodecad referred to as "north european" was pure hap R and its subclades, then that was split into "east european" and "west european" which to me are just R1a and R1b
    "west asian" is obviously a caucasus (and perhaps they were in mesopotamia/iran before that, explaining it in every middle eastern population) is hap G and all it's subclades. G has very low percentages most places but very high autosomal, I believe these people must have sold large amounts of their women into slavery or were peaceful and as a result conquered many times.
    "southwest asian" is obviously middle eastern and I would say it represents Hap J and it's subclades, I am sure "southwest asian" could be further split into northern and southern components (just like they split north european into east and west) which would correlate to J2 and J1. this would not be easy though as all J1 populations seem to be mixed with J2 and vice versa, they did do it with "north european" though so it is possible.
    I think the "northwest african", obviously berber equates to certain haplogroups of E but not all subclades of E

    why do I lump subclades of other haplogroups together but separate E?
    E is older then all the other haplogroups mentioned here, has older mutations and perhaps many more mutations to the point I think some subclades of E should be treated as if they were separate haplogroups altogether
    the only thing I can't figure out with my theory of the autosomal is, where are the older non berber hap E's of europe and where is E-v13? is it lumped into mediterranean with hap I or is it just not coming up in the tests? you only detect things you are testing for
    maybe the E's were a founder effect and didn't make much of a dent in the gene pool. or lumped into "northwest african"

    as far as N1c1 areas of europe, I'd say it was a founder effect. a warlike tribe of N1c1 conquering and taking female slaves of aryan groups from the region and absorbing them. over time (hundreds of years), there is hardly any siberian blood left in them. just look at finns, balts, russians etc they are obviously european. the autosomal is just revealing what your eyes already knew to be true.

    what do you guys think of my theory so far?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anton, Bear's den View Post
    We have some Mongol shamans in South Siberia, they are relatives of the Turks. Turks in comments to video totally recognise it.
    And Georgians have nothing in common with Africa, they have a lot in common with Turks, Armenians, Azeris. Their distinctive feature is a big sharp nose. In Russia only minority of Northern Ossetians have a lot in common with Georgians because they live on the Caucasus.
    Do not forget that there are many natural obstacles for DNA distribution: Black Sea, Bosporus Strait, hardly penetrable Caucasus Mountains, scorching deserts of Central Asia etc...

    Exactly. I tried to explain that to them. But to support their wild claims they came with some obscure contradicting charts.

    The thing is that the REAL West Asians (Caucasians and Iranic folks with high I2a & R1a) are very close to East Europeans. They're even much closer to the East Europeans than the West Europeans to the East Europeans. Also there is a linguistically connection between Iranic West Asians and East Europeans. Both groups belong to IE Satem group!

    I don't mean Arabs, they're absolutely not West Asian!


    Very nice video, btw.

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    May I ask whats wrong with the Africans, that some people here try to stress their genetic distance to them? They are same people like you and me. Besides I´d like to make some considerations concerning the East European anthropological type – a region that concerns me more - and its possible components.
    The Corded Ware ( R1a ) expansion in the second half of the 3rd millenium BC reached at least Elbe. Before it, one of the important anthropological components in that part of Europe was the Comb Ceramic culture, associated with finno-ugric population.
    In the beginning of the Bronze Age the expansion of the middle- european Urnfield culture from south-west and south gave rise to the Lusatian culture, which assimilated the Corded Ware population living in that area ( roughly speaking from Elbe till Bug ).
    To these genetically and archeologically undoubted facts I´d like to add some observations of more obvious nature. There are some common anthropological characteristics of the populations, say, Belarus, Poland and East Germany ( it should be noted that eastern Germany was previously settled by Slavs and their predecessors ) that distinguish them from the formations in North Germany and Balticum - two of the most archaic ones in Europe.
    This is most likely due to the expansion of the Urnfields that cut the previous Corded Ware territorial continuity.
    In slavic tradition, the legends from early slav chronicles, there are reports that their ancestors came from the Danube lands – this suits well with the Urnfield culture invasion.

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    Nothing wrong with Africans. But some confused fellas involve other races (Caucasian - from the Caucasus - and Iranic - maybe from the Central Asia -) that have absolutely nothing do to with this debate or Africans in general!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zdenek von reslaw View Post
    May I ask whats wrong with the Africans, that some people here try to stress their genetic distance to them?[/FONT]
    It is the same racial superiority crap that has been around since colonial times, any open minded person would think that with the supposed high educational standards in Europe that this rubbish would be a thing of the past. Not so, unfortunately some are still clinging to the old delusions.

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    Goga,

    There's no contradiction in what we post. You can go and check the Dodecad Distances, and some components are clearly more intermediate than others. What admixture reads is allele frequencies in the different chromosomes. That means that if you pick some Georgians for example, with an average of 75% West Asian, what admixture is reading is that this population has been bootlenecked in a specific region for a long time. The region in this case is not Africa, ok, but neither Europe, Arabia, or Asia. Then, what admixture is saying with a West Asian component, is that they are the most native to their place, of course, but other affinities are impossible to deny and are implicit in the West Asian component, since it's showed as something more intermediate than the European clusters for example.

    As you can imagine I did not create the Dodecad distances and the Doug McDonald plots, but if that's not enough for you, will see the third opinion at 23andme. I think 3 genetic sites can't be wrong at the same time.

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    OK.

    But there's a lot of misunderstanding here.

    1) First of all, who are Africans? Because Arabs in North Africa and Arabs in Arabia show very much affinity with each other. Berbers are Africans. But are Arabs in Africa African?

    2) I believe that Arabic Africans have much more Asian DNA than European DNA, because they are from Asia and extensively settled in Africa. But that happened only in the last millennia or something. Before that Southwest Asia and West Asia exchanged some DNA with each other. West Asian J2 & J1 migrated to Arabia. So I think that if there is some affinity between Africans and West Asian that's because they have West Asian DNA in them and not vice versa.
    What I mean is that Arabic Africans have much more West Asian genetic component in them than West Asians do have some genes from Africa.

    3) I believe that the Mediterranean and (native) Africans are much closer to each other due to they have been neighbours for thousands of years. Every year many Africans are immigrating into Europe. But there was never such a migration in West Asia. Countries like Georgia and Armenia were closed behind the Communist iron curtain not long time ago (modern times).

    As far as I know, in West Asia there have been always sectarian & ethnic wars. Africans have/had nothing to do in West Asia if they were looking for a 'better life'. West Asia is much a shittier place than Africa! Always wars and always insecurity. It is the hell on earth, while it also could be the paradise on earth.

    Also, mountains in the Caucasus and West Asia are 2 times higher than the Pyrenees.

    If there is some African DNA in West Asia, that's because of 2 or 3 imported African slaves from Arabistan! And Arabs (still) luve Africans...,... but only as their slaves.

    Of course West Asians have some Arab/Semitic (Southwest Asian) blood, much more than the Mediterranean do. But the Mediterranean have much more native African blood in them than West Asians do!

    I don't think some folks understand West Asia very well...
    Last edited by Goga; 28-08-11 at 17:34.

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    Who are Africans? That's a good question.

    In my opinion, true Africans are simply Negroid types. Note that North Africa has very strong Caucasoid influence, and ethnic Berbers are probably the most representative of this there (nothing to do with Negroids). North Africa is clearly very different from the rest of Africa, and the reason it's obvious if you check, for example, the Moroccan averge in Dodecad project. Then, it's almost sure that most Southern Europeans show higher similarities with North Africans than Georgians, because of the European and other Caucasoid correlations (ancient in the case of North Africa).

    I must say I have checked some people at 23andme, and results are curious. I hadn't find a pure Georgian, the most similar is one with some Ukranian ancestry, and he appears to have the highest simillarity with Southern Europe (I mean, his own similarity). I'll try to find an ethnic Georgian, but I don't know how much time I'll need (looks difficult). For the moment, I'm going to post the results I have taking Africa as reference, including Iberians, Two Italians (one is Southern Italian), the mixed Georgian, and a modelic Chinese

    The results are showed using the same scale for all people. True Negroids are a maximum diferenciated pole (West Africans), and the similarity showed with them, I think, must be taken seriously with independence of the main ancestry. Higher number means closer here.

    CHINESE
    North Africa: 65.15
    East Africa: 63.93
    South Africa: 63.83
    Central Africa: 63.78
    West Africa: 63.74

    MIXED GEORGIAN (he is DOD665, and keep in mind he has substantial European admixture, what means that a real Georgian should appear more similar to Africans than him...however, check the numbers carefully in comparison, specially, with some of the Iberians)
    North Africa: 66.49
    East Africa: 63.65
    South Africa: 63.53
    Central Africa: 63.50
    West Africa: 63.45

    ITALIAN 1 (this one joins Dodecad, but I don't know the exact number...it's possible he has little African ancestry added to a high West Asian and Southwest Asian)
    North Africa: 66.58
    East Africa: 63.69
    South Africa: 63.57
    Central Africa: 63.52
    West Africa: 63.49

    ITALIAN 2 (DOD438 - Southern Italian)
    North Africa: 66.68
    East Africa: 63.81
    South Africa: 63.70
    Central Africa: 63.64
    West Africa: 63.58

    IBERIAN 1 (DOD541 - this one shows a bit atypical african admixture)
    North Africa: 66.52
    East Africa: 63.71
    South Africa: 63.57
    Central Africa: 63.53
    West Africa: 63.48

    IBERIAN 2 (DOD161)
    North Africa: 66.55
    East Africa: 63.64
    South Africa: 63.51
    Central Africa: 63.49
    West Africa: 63.45

    IBERIAN 3 (DOD740)
    North Africa: 66.56
    East Africa: 63.62
    South Africa: 63.48
    Central Africa: 63.45
    West Africa: 63.39

    IBERIAN 4 (DOD725)
    North Africa: 66.60
    East Africa: 63.57
    South Africa: 63.44
    Central Africa: 63.40
    West Africa: 63.38

    For the moment that's the information collected...what a huge post I made XD

    Quick conclusions are that Mongoloid populations are more related to Africans than the Caucasoids are...at least, the total genome match appears to be higher. And it's apreciable that, in general terms, Iberians are too western to have I high genome similarity with negroids. With Italians (and probably Greeks) the thing seems to work different...will see if I find a pure Georgian one day to post the numbers. Also, if you want, I can look for more Italians and Greeks...some of them, specially North Italians, would appear a bit different.
    Last edited by Knovas; 28-08-11 at 23:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    OK.

    But there's a lot of misunderstanding here.

    1) First of all, who are Africans? Because Arabs in North Africa and Arabs in Arabia show very much affinity with each other. Berbers are Africans. But are Arabs in Africa African?

    2) I believe that Arabic Africans have much more Asian DNA than European DNA, because they are from Asia and extensively settled in Africa. But that happened only in the last millennia or something. Before that Southwest Asia and West Asia exchanged some DNA with each other. West Asian J2 & J1 migrated to Arabia. So I think that if there is some affinity between Africans and West Asian that's because they have West Asian DNA in them and not vice versa.
    What I mean is that Arabic Africans have much more West Asian genetic component in them than West Asians do have some genes from Africa.

    3) I believe that the Mediterranean and (native) Africans are much closer to each other due to they have been neighbours for thousands of years. Every year many Africans are immigrating into Europe. But there was never such a migration in West Asia. Countries like Georgia and Armenia were closed behind the Communist iron curtain not long time ago (modern times).

    As far as I know, in West Asia there have been always sectarian & ethnic wars. Africans have/had nothing to do in West Asia if they were looking for a 'better life'. West Asia is much a shittier place than Africa! Always wars and always insecurity. It is the hell on earth, while it also could be the paradise on earth.

    Also, mountains in the Caucasus and West Asia are 2 times higher than the Pyrenees.

    If there is some African DNA in West Asia, that's because of 2 or 3 imported African slaves from Arabistan! And Arabs (still) luve Africans...,... but only as their slaves.

    Of course West Asians have some Arab/Semitic (Southwest Asian) blood, much more than the Mediterranean do. But the Mediterranean have much more native African blood in them than West Asians do!

    I don't think some folks understand West Asia very well...
    I think you are getting confused. Nobody is saying that Georgians or other Caucasus have african admixture. What we say is that the West-Asian component in it's pure form (100% west-asian, Georgians are about 72%) is closer to Paleo-African than the Mediterranean component, but still notice that the distances in both cases are extremey LARGE. It's not something invented by us.

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    I'm sorry to all readers if they got disappointed or insulted by my posts. I've nothing against Africans or other races and I do understand that this forum is all about Europe. All Homo sapiens are from Africa at the first place. This is my last message about this whole thing.



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm2 View Post
    I think you are getting confused. Nobody is saying that Georgians or other Caucasus have african admixture. What we say is that the West-Asian component in it's pure form (100% west-asian, Georgians are about 72%) is closer to Paleo-African than the Mediterranean component, but still notice that the distances in both cases are extremey LARGE. It's not something invented by us.
    Lol, that's a lie and you know it. This whole topic is about ADMIXTURE. West Asian linage is not closer to Africa than the Mediterranean is. African lineage is E and the Mediterranean has more E than West Asia. According to some of your posts the admixture of West Asian is closer to Africans.

    E is everywhere in the Mediterranean and it's all directly from Africa!

    IF there is African DNA in West Asian then it is from the Greeks and/or Arabs. There's also 1 other possibility. Neo-Babylonians (Kassites) and Aryan Mitanni had some close ties with the ancient Egypt of Pharaohs, maybe some 'African' DNA slipped into West Asia at that times. But that was more than 3000 years ago. Otherwise I can't imagine other possibility.

    West Asia ain't no Disney Land, lol. It's not a place where you can come and go. West Asian = at least 5000 years of NON-STOP war. West Asia is the place where many great battles took place. Many races found their WATERLOO there. From the great Hurrians to many ARYAN kingdoms, to Alexander of Macedon, the Romans, the Mongols, Arabs, Russians and the list goes on. None of them are from Africa!

    The same can't be said about the Mediterranean. Like Hannibal, African Arabs and Mouriscos that were in the Mediterranean. Also Greeks love Egyptians. All these people around the Mediterranean were the same and had same African linage, hg. E.

    If you want to come and live in West Asia you must have some HUGE balls, otherwise you won't survive. West Asia ain't no place for outsiders. People there have very close societies and are very traditional. If you want to come and live there (as a nation) you must take it by force.
    Otherwise you will be wiped out. Hittites, Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians etc. all found their WATERLOO in West Asia. Even, if you live in West Asia as a 'newcomer' for 1000 years in West Asia it's not a guarantee that your ethnicity will survive. Turks who have been living here for almost 1000 years are may be the next victims of this harsh and hard reality. An European or African nation without help won't survive there for a very short time.

    I even didn't wrote anything about brutal landscape in West Asia.

    I rest my case.

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    The distances talk clearly I think, the West Asian component is closer to Africa than the Mediterranean is. Then, ¿how do you explain that DOD725 with 54.4% Mediterranean + 2.2% North/East African, is much less similar to negroids than the Mixed Georgian I showed obove?

    Be resonable man. Seriously, that's not to hurt anybody; just to get the best aproximation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Higher number means closer here.

    MIXED GEORGIAN (he is DOD665, and keep in mind he has substantial European admixture, what means that a real Georgian should appear more similar to Africans than him...however, check the numbers carefully in comparison, specially, with some of the Iberians)
    North Africa: 66.49
    East Africa: 63.65
    South Africa: 63.53
    Central Africa: 63.50
    West Africa: 63.45

    ITALIAN 1 (this one joins Dodecad, but I don't know the exact number...it's possible he has little African ancestry added to a high West Asian and Southwest Asian)
    North Africa: 66.58
    East Africa: 63.69
    South Africa: 63.57
    Central Africa: 63.52
    West Africa: 63.49

    ITALIAN 2 (DOD438 - Southern Italian)
    North Africa: 66.68
    East Africa: 63.81
    South Africa: 63.70
    Central Africa: 63.64
    West Africa: 63.58

    IBERIAN 1 (DOD541 - this one shows a bit atypical african admixture)
    North Africa: 66.52
    East Africa: 63.71
    South Africa: 63.57
    Central Africa: 63.53
    West Africa: 63.48

    IBERIAN 2 (DOD161)
    North Africa: 66.55
    East Africa: 63.64
    South Africa: 63.51
    Central Africa: 63.49
    West Africa: 63.45

    IBERIAN 3 (DOD740)
    North Africa: 66.56
    East Africa: 63.62
    South Africa: 63.48
    Central Africa: 63.45
    West Africa: 63.39

    IBERIAN 4 (DOD725)
    North Africa: 66.60
    East Africa: 63.57
    South Africa: 63.44
    Central Africa: 63.40
    West Africa: 63.38
    I don't understand this, but does higher number mean CLOSER to Africans???

    Of all people here the so called 'mixed' Georgian has the lowest numbers...

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    100% Sure. At 23andme higher number means closer, because it's global similarity (higher number = more similar).

    The mixed Georgian hasn't got the lowest numbers. He just has lower similarity with North Africa (Caucasoid), but comparing with the rest of Africans (Negroids) he has higher numbers than the most part of Iberians. What I tried to show posting Italians, is that they appear more similar, in great part, because they have substantial West Asian and Southwest Asian (but also added to some African ancestry in this case). But as you can see, the mentioned Iberian has 0% near eastern, and even having 2.2% North/East African, the mixed Georgian gets higher numbers than him (and also higher than two more Iberians). No better explanation than the one already given.

    I think it's clear.

    PD: Trust me. An ethnic Georgian would get even higher numbers compared to Africa than the one I used, because the European admixture is lower between them. Sure.

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    O ok, thank you very much. Now i do understand it. The most Iberians are closer to North Africans, but this mixed Georgian is closer to other Africans. This make sense. North Africans with high E are somehow the Mediterranean too. But when I'm talking about the European Mediterranean I'm talking about all nations around this sea. From Spain to Greeks.

    Georgians are much closer to Arabs than the Iberians are, that's how they got more West-East-South African DNA, the Iberians are closer to North Africa, that's how they have more North African DNA.
    But this is always what I told you: the Mediterraneans from Africa and Europe are close to each other, because they live next to each other for thousands of years.

    I do also see that the Italians & Iberian1 have more DNA from ALL Africa than this 'mixed' Georgian. I guess a person from Greece has even more than these fellas from Italy and Iberian1. But we have just 1 example from Georgia.

    Once again the Mediterranean is not only Southeast parts of Spain, but also Morocco, Libya, Italy, Greece etc..

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    Greeks would appear with higher similarity because of the high West Asian and Southwest Asian, but they have very low African scores. What happens with some Spaniards and Portuguese is that they show enough African ancestry to have higher similarity, at least, than this Georgian (don't forget that an ethnic Georgian would get higher numbers than this one). But most of them would appear with more or less the same or lower.

    I'll post more examples if I can, it's very difficult to find ethnic Georgians (but sure some of them join 23andme). Also, I'll, search for Greeks and other interesting examples if I think it's the case.

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    From what I've read, spaniards at 23andMe score even a higher similarity with Central-Asians than with North-Africans. Definately the mediterranean sea has acted as a genetic barrier.

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    You can almost build a beautiful masterpiece of a bridge between Ceuta - Gibraltar (Africa - Europe). Or maybe multiple bridges with some artificial islands in between. It's that close!

    Ceuta - Gibraltar

    - Miles: 16.95
    - Kilometers: 27.28


    http://www.mapcrow.info/Distance_bet..._Ceuta_SP.html

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    The similarity with Central Asians is higher (66.75-66.90). However, similarities between closer populations must consider the main ancestry. That means in the case of Europeans, if a person is more similar to Europe than another one, proportinally, the second can have more asiatic in him than the other, even scoring less similarity with Central Asians and other Asians.

    It depends on the case. However, the similarity with Black Africans is listed in a very low scale (63), and represents almost the same for all people. Of course, the similarity showed by Black Africans is more than 68. They are the most similar to its ancestral place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    You can almost build a beautiful masterpiece of a bridge between Ceuta - Gibraltar (Africa - Europe). Or maybe multiple bridges with some artificial islands in between. It's that close!

    Ceuta - Gibraltar

    - Miles: 16.95
    - Kilometers: 27.28


    http://www.mapcrow.info/Distance_bet..._Ceuta_SP.html
    Actually, there is genetic research that suggests the Straights of Gibraltar, because of its unpredictable currents, acted as a greater gene flow deterrent between North Africa and Europe than sections of the eastern Mediterranean. I think one of the posters on this thread may have details of the study available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundis View Post
    Actually, there is genetic research that suggests the Straights of Gibraltar, because of its unpredictable currents, acted as a greater gene flow deterrent between North Africa and Europe than sections of the eastern Mediterranean. I think one of the posters on this thread may have details of the study available.
    Correct. Many studies talk about the genetic barrier of Gibraltar. For example, Andalusia which is right next to Gibraltar, showed about 1.6% of north-african E-M81 while France had 3.5%. Other studies :


    "An analysis of 11 Alu insertion polymorphisms...has been performed in several NW African...and Iberian...populations. Genetic distances and principal component analyses show a clear differentiation of NW African and Iberian groups of samples, suggesting a strong genetic barrier matching the geographical Mediterranean Sea barrier. The restriction to gene flow may be attributed to the navigational hazards across the Straits, but cultural factors must also have played a role. ... Iberian samples show a substantial degree of homogeneity and fall within the cluster of European-based genetic diversity."
    (Comas et al. 2000)
    A European wide study including Spaniards states: No significant correlation is apparent between North African admixture and geography. Genetic exchanges across the Mediterranean Sea, and especially in its western-most part where the geographic distance between continents is smallest (Spain), seem to have been limited or very limited, establishing the North African contribution at between 2.5% and 3.4%.

    Dupanloup, I. (2004). "Estimating the Impact of Prehistoric Admixture on the Genome of Europeans".

    Discover Magazine : Gene Flow stops at Gibraltar

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gn...raltar-mostly/

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