K12 Dodecad project : highest percentage for each admixture

Goga,

There's no contradiction in what we post. You can go and check the Dodecad Distances, and some components are clearly more intermediate than others. What admixture reads is allele frequencies in the different chromosomes. That means that if you pick some Georgians for example, with an average of 75% West Asian, what admixture is reading is that this population has been bootlenecked in a specific region for a long time. The region in this case is not Africa, ok, but neither Europe, Arabia, or Asia. Then, what admixture is saying with a West Asian component, is that they are the most native to their place, of course, but other affinities are impossible to deny and are implicit in the West Asian component, since it's showed as something more intermediate than the European clusters for example.

As you can imagine I did not create the Dodecad distances and the Doug McDonald plots, but if that's not enough for you, will see the third opinion at 23andme. I think 3 genetic sites can't be wrong at the same time.
 
OK.

But there's a lot of misunderstanding here.

1) First of all, who are Africans? Because Arabs in North Africa and Arabs in Arabia show very much affinity with each other. Berbers are Africans. But are Arabs in Africa African?

2) I believe that Arabic Africans have much more Asian DNA than European DNA, because they are from Asia and extensively settled in Africa. But that happened only in the last millennia or something. Before that Southwest Asia and West Asia exchanged some DNA with each other. West Asian J2 & J1 migrated to Arabia. So I think that if there is some affinity between Africans and West Asian that's because they have West Asian DNA in them and not vice versa.
What I mean is that Arabic Africans have much more West Asian genetic component in them than West Asians do have some genes from Africa.

3) I believe that the Mediterranean and (native) Africans are much closer to each other due to they have been neighbours for thousands of years. Every year many Africans are immigrating into Europe. But there was never such a migration in West Asia. Countries like Georgia and Armenia were closed behind the Communist iron curtain not long time ago (modern times).

As far as I know, in West Asia there have been always sectarian & ethnic wars. Africans have/had nothing to do in West Asia if they were looking for a 'better life'. West Asia is much a shittier place than Africa! Always wars and always insecurity. It is the hell on earth, while it also could be the paradise on earth.

Also, mountains in the Caucasus and West Asia are 2 times higher than the Pyrenees.

If there is some African DNA in West Asia, that's because of 2 or 3 imported African slaves from Arabistan! And Arabs (still) luve Africans...,... but only as their slaves.

Of course West Asians have some Arab/Semitic (Southwest Asian) blood, much more than the Mediterranean do. But the Mediterranean have much more native African blood in them than West Asians do!

I don't think some folks understand West Asia very well...
 
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Who are Africans? That's a good question.

In my opinion, true Africans are simply Negroid types. Note that North Africa has very strong Caucasoid influence, and ethnic Berbers are probably the most representative of this there (nothing to do with Negroids). North Africa is clearly very different from the rest of Africa, and the reason it's obvious if you check, for example, the Moroccan averge in Dodecad project. Then, it's almost sure that most Southern Europeans show higher similarities with North Africans than Georgians, because of the European and other Caucasoid correlations (ancient in the case of North Africa).

I must say I have checked some people at 23andme, and results are curious. I hadn't find a pure Georgian, the most similar is one with some Ukranian ancestry, and he appears to have the highest simillarity with Southern Europe (I mean, his own similarity). I'll try to find an ethnic Georgian, but I don't know how much time I'll need (looks difficult). For the moment, I'm going to post the results I have taking Africa as reference, including Iberians, Two Italians (one is Southern Italian), the mixed Georgian, and a modelic Chinese

The results are showed using the same scale for all people. True Negroids are a maximum diferenciated pole (West Africans), and the similarity showed with them, I think, must be taken seriously with independence of the main ancestry. Higher number means closer here.

CHINESE
North Africa: 65.15
East Africa: 63.93
South Africa: 63.83
Central Africa: 63.78
West Africa: 63.74

MIXED GEORGIAN (he is DOD665, and keep in mind he has substantial European admixture, what means that a real Georgian should appear more similar to Africans than him...however, check the numbers carefully in comparison, specially, with some of the Iberians)
North Africa: 66.49
East Africa: 63.65
South Africa: 63.53
Central Africa: 63.50
West Africa: 63.45

ITALIAN 1 (this one joins Dodecad, but I don't know the exact number...it's possible he has little African ancestry added to a high West Asian and Southwest Asian)
North Africa: 66.58
East Africa: 63.69
South Africa: 63.57
Central Africa: 63.52
West Africa: 63.49

ITALIAN 2 (DOD438 - Southern Italian)
North Africa: 66.68
East Africa: 63.81
South Africa: 63.70
Central Africa: 63.64
West Africa: 63.58

IBERIAN 1 (DOD541 - this one shows a bit atypical african admixture)
North Africa: 66.52
East Africa: 63.71
South Africa: 63.57
Central Africa: 63.53
West Africa: 63.48

IBERIAN 2 (DOD161)
North Africa: 66.55
East Africa: 63.64
South Africa: 63.51
Central Africa: 63.49
West Africa: 63.45

IBERIAN 3 (DOD740)
North Africa: 66.56
East Africa: 63.62
South Africa: 63.48
Central Africa: 63.45
West Africa: 63.39

IBERIAN 4 (DOD725)
North Africa: 66.60
East Africa: 63.57
South Africa: 63.44
Central Africa: 63.40
West Africa: 63.38

For the moment that's the information collected...what a huge post I made XD

Quick conclusions are that Mongoloid populations are more related to Africans than the Caucasoids are...at least, the total genome match appears to be higher. And it's apreciable that, in general terms, Iberians are too western to have I high genome similarity with negroids. With Italians (and probably Greeks) the thing seems to work different...will see if I find a pure Georgian one day to post the numbers. Also, if you want, I can look for more Italians and Greeks...some of them, specially North Italians, would appear a bit different.
 
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Goga said:
OK.

But there's a lot of misunderstanding here.

1) First of all, who are Africans? Because Arabs in North Africa and Arabs in Arabia show very much affinity with each other. Berbers are Africans. But are Arabs in Africa African?

2) I believe that Arabic Africans have much more Asian DNA than European DNA, because they are from Asia and extensively settled in Africa. But that happened only in the last millennia or something. Before that Southwest Asia and West Asia exchanged some DNA with each other. West Asian J2 & J1 migrated to Arabia. So I think that if there is some affinity between Africans and West Asian that's because they have West Asian DNA in them and not vice versa.
What I mean is that Arabic Africans have much more West Asian genetic component in them than West Asians do have some genes from Africa.

3) I believe that the Mediterranean and (native) Africans are much closer to each other due to they have been neighbours for thousands of years. Every year many Africans are immigrating into Europe. But there was never such a migration in West Asia. Countries like Georgia and Armenia were closed behind the Communist iron curtain not long time ago (modern times).

As far as I know, in West Asia there have been always sectarian & ethnic wars. Africans have/had nothing to do in West Asia if they were looking for a 'better life'. West Asia is much a shittier place than Africa! Always wars and always insecurity. It is the hell on earth, while it also could be the paradise on earth.

Also, mountains in the Caucasus and West Asia are 2 times higher than the Pyrenees.

If there is some African DNA in West Asia, that's because of 2 or 3 imported African slaves from Arabistan! And Arabs (still) luve Africans...,... but only as their slaves.

Of course West Asians have some Arab/Semitic (Southwest Asian) blood, much more than the Mediterranean do. But the Mediterranean have much more native African blood in them than West Asians do!

I don't think some folks understand West Asia very well...
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I think you are getting confused. Nobody is saying that Georgians or other Caucasus have african admixture. What we say is that the West-Asian component in it's pure form (100% west-asian, Georgians are about 72%) is closer to Paleo-African than the Mediterranean component, but still notice that the distances in both cases are extremey LARGE. It's not something invented by us.
 
I'm sorry to all readers if they got disappointed or insulted by my posts. I've nothing against Africans or other races and I do understand that this forum is all about Europe. All Homo sapiens are from Africa at the first place. This is my last message about this whole thing.



Wilhelm2 said:
I think you are getting confused. Nobody is saying that Georgians or other Caucasus have african admixture. What we say is that the West-Asian component in it's pure form (100% west-asian, Georgians are about 72%) is closer to Paleo-African than the Mediterranean component, but still notice that the distances in both cases are extremey LARGE. It's not something invented by us.
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Lol, that's a lie and you know it. This whole topic is about ADMIXTURE. West Asian linage is not closer to Africa than the Mediterranean is. African lineage is E and the Mediterranean has more E than West Asia. According to some of your posts the admixture of West Asian is closer to Africans.

E is everywhere in the Mediterranean and it's all directly from Africa!

IF there is African DNA in West Asian then it is from the Greeks and/or Arabs. There's also 1 other possibility. Neo-Babylonians (Kassites) and Aryan Mitanni had some close ties with the ancient Egypt of Pharaohs, maybe some 'African' DNA slipped into West Asia at that times. But that was more than 3000 years ago. Otherwise I can't imagine other possibility.

West Asia ain't no Disney Land, lol. It's not a place where you can come and go. West Asian = at least 5000 years of NON-STOP war. West Asia is the place where many great battles took place. Many races found their WATERLOO there. From the great Hurrians to many ARYAN kingdoms, to Alexander of Macedon, the Romans, the Mongols, Arabs, Russians and the list goes on. None of them are from Africa!

The same can't be said about the Mediterranean. Like Hannibal, African Arabs and Mouriscos that were in the Mediterranean. Also Greeks love Egyptians. All these people around the Mediterranean were the same and had same African linage, hg. E.

If you want to come and live in West Asia you must have some HUGE balls, otherwise you won't survive. West Asia ain't no place for outsiders. People there have very close societies and are very traditional. If you want to come and live there (as a nation) you must take it by force.
Otherwise you will be wiped out. Hittites, Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians etc. all found their WATERLOO in West Asia. Even, if you live in West Asia as a 'newcomer' for 1000 years in West Asia it's not a guarantee that your ethnicity will survive. Turks who have been living here for almost 1000 years are may be the next victims of this harsh and hard reality. An European or African nation without help won't survive there for a very short time.

I even didn't wrote anything about brutal landscape in West Asia.

I rest my case.
 
The distances talk clearly I think, the West Asian component is closer to Africa than the Mediterranean is. Then, ¿how do you explain that DOD725 with 54.4% Mediterranean + 2.2% North/East African, is much less similar to negroids than the Mixed Georgian I showed obove?

Be resonable man. Seriously, that's not to hurt anybody; just to get the best aproximation.
 
Knovas said:
Higher number means closer here.

MIXED GEORGIAN (he is DOD665, and keep in mind he has substantial European admixture, what means that a real Georgian should appear more similar to Africans than him...however, check the numbers carefully in comparison, specially, with some of the Iberians)
North Africa: 66.49
East Africa: 63.65
South Africa: 63.53
Central Africa: 63.50
West Africa: 63.45

ITALIAN 1 (this one joins Dodecad, but I don't know the exact number...it's possible he has little African ancestry added to a high West Asian and Southwest Asian)
North Africa: 66.58
East Africa: 63.69
South Africa: 63.57
Central Africa: 63.52
West Africa: 63.49

ITALIAN 2 (DOD438 - Southern Italian)
North Africa: 66.68
East Africa: 63.81
South Africa: 63.70
Central Africa: 63.64
West Africa: 63.58

IBERIAN 1 (DOD541 - this one shows a bit atypical african admixture)
North Africa: 66.52
East Africa: 63.71
South Africa: 63.57
Central Africa: 63.53
West Africa: 63.48

IBERIAN 2 (DOD161)
North Africa: 66.55
East Africa: 63.64
South Africa: 63.51
Central Africa: 63.49
West Africa: 63.45

IBERIAN 3 (DOD740)
North Africa: 66.56
East Africa: 63.62
South Africa: 63.48
Central Africa: 63.45
West Africa: 63.39

IBERIAN 4 (DOD725)
North Africa: 66.60
East Africa: 63.57
South Africa: 63.44
Central Africa: 63.40
West Africa: 63.38
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I don't understand this, but does higher number mean CLOSER to Africans???

Of all people here the so called 'mixed' Georgian has the lowest numbers...
 
100% Sure. At 23andme higher number means closer, because it's global similarity (higher number = more similar).

The mixed Georgian hasn't got the lowest numbers. He just has lower similarity with North Africa (Caucasoid), but comparing with the rest of Africans (Negroids) he has higher numbers than the most part of Iberians. What I tried to show posting Italians, is that they appear more similar, in great part, because they have substantial West Asian and Southwest Asian (but also added to some African ancestry in this case). But as you can see, the mentioned Iberian has 0% near eastern, and even having 2.2% North/East African, the mixed Georgian gets higher numbers than him (and also higher than two more Iberians). No better explanation than the one already given.

I think it's clear.

PD: Trust me. An ethnic Georgian would get even higher numbers compared to Africa than the one I used, because the European admixture is lower between them. Sure.
 
O ok, thank you very much. Now i do understand it. The most Iberians are closer to North Africans, but this mixed Georgian is closer to other Africans. This make sense. North Africans with high E are somehow the Mediterranean too. But when I'm talking about the European Mediterranean I'm talking about all nations around this sea. From Spain to Greeks.

Georgians are much closer to Arabs than the Iberians are, that's how they got more West-East-South African DNA, the Iberians are closer to North Africa, that's how they have more North African DNA.
But this is always what I told you: the Mediterraneans from Africa and Europe are close to each other, because they live next to each other for thousands of years.

I do also see that the Italians & Iberian1 have more DNA from ALL Africa than this 'mixed' Georgian. I guess a person from Greece has even more than these fellas from Italy and Iberian1. But we have just 1 example from Georgia.

Once again the Mediterranean is not only Southeast parts of Spain, but also Morocco, Libya, Italy, Greece etc..
 
Greeks would appear with higher similarity because of the high West Asian and Southwest Asian, but they have very low African scores. What happens with some Spaniards and Portuguese is that they show enough African ancestry to have higher similarity, at least, than this Georgian (don't forget that an ethnic Georgian would get higher numbers than this one). But most of them would appear with more or less the same or lower.

I'll post more examples if I can, it's very difficult to find ethnic Georgians (but sure some of them join 23andme). Also, I'll, search for Greeks and other interesting examples if I think it's the case.
 
From what I've read, spaniards at 23andMe score even a higher similarity with Central-Asians than with North-Africans. Definately the mediterranean sea has acted as a genetic barrier.
 
The similarity with Central Asians is higher (66.75-66.90). However, similarities between closer populations must consider the main ancestry. That means in the case of Europeans, if a person is more similar to Europe than another one, proportinally, the second can have more asiatic in him than the other, even scoring less similarity with Central Asians and other Asians.

It depends on the case. However, the similarity with Black Africans is listed in a very low scale (63), and represents almost the same for all people. Of course, the similarity showed by Black Africans is more than 68. They are the most similar to its ancestral place.
 
Goga said:
You can almost build a beautiful masterpiece of a bridge between Ceuta - Gibraltar (Africa - Europe). Or maybe multiple bridges with some artificial islands in between. It's that close!

Ceuta - Gibraltar

- Miles: 16.95
- Kilometers: 27.28


http://www.mapcrow.info/Distance_between_Gibraltar_GI_and_Ceuta_SP.html
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Actually, there is genetic research that suggests the Straights of Gibraltar, because of its unpredictable currents, acted as a greater gene flow deterrent between North Africa and Europe than sections of the eastern Mediterranean. I think one of the posters on this thread may have details of the study available.
 
Burgundis said:
Actually, there is genetic research that suggests the Straights of Gibraltar, because of its unpredictable currents, acted as a greater gene flow deterrent between North Africa and Europe than sections of the eastern Mediterranean. I think one of the posters on this thread may have details of the study available.
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Correct. Many studies talk about the genetic barrier of Gibraltar. For example, Andalusia which is right next to Gibraltar, showed about 1.6% of north-african E-M81 while France had 3.5%. Other studies :


"An analysis of 11 Alu insertion polymorphisms...has been performed in several NW African...and Iberian...populations. Genetic distances and principal component analyses show a clear differentiation of NW African and Iberian groups of samples, suggesting a strong genetic barrier matching the geographical Mediterranean Sea barrier. The restriction to gene flow may be attributed to the navigational hazards across the Straits, but cultural factors must also have played a role. ... Iberian samples show a substantial degree of homogeneity and fall within the cluster of European-based genetic diversity."
(Comas et al. 2000)
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A European wide study including Spaniards states: No significant correlation is apparent between North African admixture and geography. Genetic exchanges across the Mediterranean Sea, and especially in its western-most part where the geographic distance between continents is smallest (Spain), seem to have been limited or very limited, establishing the North African contribution at between 2.5% and 3.4%.

Dupanloup, I. (2004). "Estimating the Impact of Prehistoric Admixture on the Genome of Europeans".
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Discover Magazine : Gene Flow stops at Gibraltar

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/gene-flow-stops-at-gibraltar-mostly/
 
Perfectly possible. The difference is not so huge, more or less what I thought.

The similarity with North Africans appears to be higher in the case of Iberians because it's the same scale as Central Asians at 23andme (66). The real distance must take the European similarity as reference, and Georgians have very low European similarity compared to Iberians. That's the main reason why they appear a bit closer.

Europe (North/South) is the maximum diferenciated pole on the caucasoid side (67 near 68 scale), while West Africa followed by the rest, represents the primarly African/Negroid reference (63 scale).
 
Knovas said:
Perfectly possible. The difference is not so huge, more or less what I thought.

The similarity with North Africans appears to be higher in the case of Iberians because it's the same scale as Central Asians at 23andme (66). The real distance must take the European similarity as reference, and Georgians have very low European similarity compared to Iberians. That's the main reason why they appear a bit closer.
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That's not entirely true. Georgians (and West Asians in general) are closer to Eastern Europeans than the Iberians are. Basque are very close to West European R1b folks. Because of R1b...

Georgian to Lithuanian = 0,039
Sardian to Lithuanian = 0,041
Basque to Lithuanian = 0,040

Btw, I don't understand how is it possible that Saudi is as far from Mozabite as Basque is. The same 0,077 distance. it doesn't make any sense. Georgian is closer to Mozabite than Saudi is ?????

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/gene-flow-stops-at-gibraltar-mostly/
 
A 100% Southwest Asian Saudí can be a bit far than Georgians. A 100% West Asian person hasn't been discovered for the moment, but quite Saudís are 100% Southwest Asian.

Mozabite have very high North African component, but they also carry 14% of others according to the K=12 v3 run.

Georgians can be similar to a small portion of Europe, but considering Europe as whole, their similarity appears quite low. I don't remember the European similarity of the mixed Georgian, but I think it was very low compared to most Europeans (both North and South).
 
Goga said:
That's not entirely true. Georgians (and West Asians in general) are closer to Eastern Europeans than the Iberians are. Basque are very close to West European R1b folks. Because of R1b...

Georgian to Lithuanian = 0,039
Sardian to Lithuanian = 0,041
Basque to Lithuanian = 0,040

Btw, I don't understand how is it possible that Saudi is as far from Mozabite as Basque is. The same 0,077 distance. it doesn't make any sense. Georgian is closer to Mozabite than Saudi is ?????

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/04/gene-flow-stops-at-gibraltar-mostly/
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False, because Basques and Sardinians are very homogeneus and isolated populations. But Iberians are closer to East-Europeans than Georgians are. For example, in this table, the Spaniards are closer to Russians than the Adygei ( a caucasus population, which are part of Russia) :

fsttiant.jpg
 
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