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Thread: New map of haplogroup Q

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    Arrow New map of haplogroup Q

    I have created a map displaying the frequency of haplogroup Q in Europe. The data is sparse as Q is most frequent in undersampled countries (Scandinavia and Eastern Europe), so I expect the map to evolve in the future. But it gives a pretty good idea.

    There are two kinds of Q in Europe:

    1) the Middle-Eastern variant, found mostly in the Levant, Eastern Anatolia and Iran. Note the hotspots in South Sardinia, South Sicily and the Lasithi plateau in Crete, all presumably of Phoenician origin (same for South Portugal and West Andalusia).

    2) the Northern and Eastern European variant, which I strongly believe to be of Hunnic origin, since Q isn't found in western Siberia, and its distribution matches almost perfectly the borders of Hunnic Empire. Note that the Goths from Sweden were vassals of the Huns. All the regions associated with the Goths (Sweden, Poland and the north shore of the Black Sea) have a relatively high percentage of Q (let's not forget that the Huns were a ruling minority). Norwegian and Swedish Vikings spread hg Q to Iceland, Britain, and Russia (notably the region north of Moscow, which is also a hotspot for haplogroups I1 and I2b, and an early Varangian settlement in Russia).

    One mystery is the presence of Q among the Basques.


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    Do we have SNPs to define the different types of Q? I haven't really researched haplogroup Q at all before but the Hunnic connection is very interesting. If we find suspected Asian descendants of Huns with the same subclade of Q, I'll be inclined to agree with your interpretation. Is the type (1) you define Q-M25 and type (2) Q-M378? Isn't there supposed to be some Q-M346 as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Do we have SNPs to define the different types of Q? I haven't really researched haplogroup Q at all before but the Hunnic connection is very interesting. If we find suspected Asian descendants of Huns with the same subclade of Q, I'll be inclined to agree with your interpretation. Is the type (1) you define Q-M25 and type (2) Q-M378? Isn't there supposed to be some Q-M346 as well?
    What I meant was that there were two different source populations, but the subclades are actually mixed and comprise Q1a3 (M346) and Q1b (M378) in both cases.

    Q1a2 (M25) also exists, but is pretty rare. The FTDNA Q Project has only 7 of them in Europe (Russia, Poland, Hungary, Italy, Ireland) and 1 in Saudi Arabia. Regional studies have identified it in Turkey, Lebanon and Iran, so this subclade might be of Middle Eastern origin only.

    Unfortunately most studies do not mention subclades of Q.

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    One mystery is the presence of Q among the Basques.


    I think that can be accounted for the Visigothic Kingdom that subdued Basques in the 6th centaury.
    However in this case we should assume that Hunic origin of Q in Scandinavia is barely credible theory since the Huns did not rule over the Visigoths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have created a map displaying the frequency of haplogroup Q in Europe. The data is sparse as Q is most frequent in undersampled countries (Scandinavia and Eastern Europe), so I expect the map to evolve in the future. But it gives a pretty good idea.

    There are two kinds of Q in Europe:

    1) the Middle-Eastern variant, found mostly in the Levant, Eastern Anatolia and Iran. Note the hotspots in South Sardinia, South Sicily and the Lasithi plateau in Crete, all presumably of Phoenician origin (same for South Portugal and West Andalusia).

    2) the Northern and Eastern European variant, which I strongly believe to be of Hunnic origin, since Q isn't found in western Siberia, and its distribution matches almost perfectly the borders of Hunnic Empire. Note that the Goths from Sweden were vassals of the Huns. All the regions associated with the Goths (Sweden, Poland and the north shore of the Black Sea) have a relatively high percentage of Q (let's not forget that the Huns were a ruling minority). Norwegian and Swedish Vikings spread hg Q to Iceland, Britain, and Russia (notably the region north of Moscow, which is also a hotspot for haplogroups I1 and I2b, and an early Varangian settlement in Russia).

    One mystery is the presence of Q among the Basques.


    I dont understand your term vassals of the HUns, if the goths as a legitimate force had disappeared by the time the Huns arrived.

    I also thought that the Norsemen ( norwegian vikings ) who took Normandy and became Normans and also took Sicily could be a part of the western european markers, but Normandy is missing on the map

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I dont understand your term vassals of the HUns, if the goths as a legitimate force had disappeared by the time the Huns arrived.
    I don't understand your sentence. The Goths worked as soldiers for a Hunnic king. That's what I mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I also thought that the Norsemen ( norwegian vikings ) who took Normandy and became Normans and also took Sicily could be a part of the western european markers, but Normandy is missing on the map
    The Normans were from Denmark, and the frequency of Q in Denmark varies a lot from one study to another, and also apparently from which part of Denmark samples are taken. I suppose that the Normans came from a region with very little Q, or that Q only propagated to Denmark later from Sweden and Germany. Anyway Normandy, southern England and north-west Sicily have virtually no hg Q.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I don't understand your sentence. The Goths worked as soldiers for a Hunnic king. That's what I mean.


    What I meant was that the only period that the goths served the huns was when Attila was around, the other times the Huns served under the goths, or Romans.
    And

    After Attila, the Huns remained in Pannonia for some time before they were slaughtered by Goths. Others took refuge within the East Roman Empire, namely in Dacia Ripensis and Scythia Minor.

    Also the Q cannot be huns

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    What I meant was that the only period that the goths served the huns was when Attila was around, the other times the Huns served under the goths, or Romans.
    One way or the other, the important here is that Goths and Huns lived together, whence the possible correlation between I1/I2b and Q in some regions.

    After Attila, the Huns remained in Pannonia for some time before they were slaughtered by Goths. Others took refuge within the East Roman Empire, namely in Dacia Ripensis and Scythia Minor.
    They took refuge in Dacia (Romania) and Scythia Minor (Moldova, Ukraine), which is exactly where the highest frequency of Q is to be found today. I also added the Carpathians mountains from southern Poland to northern Hungary. As for the Hunnic presence further north (Scandinavia, North Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Russia), there is no way Roman writers could have known what was happening there at the time.

    Also the Q cannot be huns
    Why ? The Huns came from southern Siberia/Mongolia, the region where hg Q is the most common in Eurasia. I don't see how Q would have arrived to Eastern, Central and Northern Europe through another people. Note that there isn't any indigenous Siberian people west of the Urals that have Q lineages. This disqualifies the possibility of a Siberian continuity as observed for hg N. No, the people who brought Q to North-East Europe had to come from far away in North-East Asia.

    The Huns might not have been exclusively Q. They might well have carried R1a lineages too. One might expect C3 and O from the present distribution around Mongolia, but that is unlikely considering that both are extremely rare in Europe.

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    It seems a very strange thing that Hunns entered Denmark and Sweden. Why did they? These countries were very poor,
    this in contrast with Italy and France. Why have the Danish islands and southeast Sweden a stronger red colour than England and France? Has the Q-haplogroup really a Hunnish or Mongoloid origin?

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    The Huns mixed with the Germanic folks (the Romans called them Barbarians) because they were allies with them against the Roman 'civilization'. The Romans called the Huns barbarians too. First the Huns (original ethnic peoples from somewhere in Mongolia) mixed with the Iranic (Scythians/Alanians) folks. When they entered into Europe they mixed with the Germanic races and were assimilated by them.

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    Haplogorups Q and N are mongoloid/Asiatic (northeast Asian) haplogroups.

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    as per link below, it entered scandinavia via trade and not via conquest, because the huns only reached the baltic sea

    http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsi...NAEvidence.pdf

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Huns_empire.png

    It is not a gothic marker

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    I think most central Asian peoples from Caspian to Mongolia were called Huns. It might have been general name for Scythians in first half of first millennium. I don't think Europeans recognized differences between various tribes of central Asia. At the end when Mongols came to Europe they were also called Huns.

    Few lines from Wikipedia:
    Traditionally notable studies include that of Pritsak 1982, "The Hunnic Language of the Attila Clan.",[29] who concluded: "It was not a Turkic language, but one between Turkic and Mongolian, probably closer to the former than the latter. The language had strong ties to Old Bulgarian and to modern Chuvash, but also had some important connections, especially lexical and morphological, to Ottoman and Yakut.", "The Turkic situation has no validity for Hunnic, which belonged to a separate Altaic group." On the basis of the existing name records, a number of scholars suggest that the Huns spoke a Turkic language of the Oghur branch, which also includes Bulgar, Avar, Khazar and Chuvash languages.[30] English scholar Peter Heather called the Huns "the first group of Turkic, as opposed to Iranian, nomads to have intruded into Europe".
    Later historians provide brief look of the dispersal and renaming of Attila's people. According to tradition, after Ellac's loss and death, his brothers ruled over two separate, but closely related hordes on the steppes north of the Black Sea. Dengizich is believed to have been king (khan) of the Kutrigur Bulgars, and Ernakh king (khan) of the Utigur Bulgars, whilst Procopius claimed that Kutrigurs and Utigurs were named after, and led by two of the sons of Ernakh. Such distinctions are uncertain and the situation is not likely to have been so clear cut. Some Huns remained in Pannonia for some time before they were slaughtered by Goths. Others took refuge within the East Roman Empire, namely in Dacia Ripensis and Scythia Minor. Possibly, other Huns and nomadic groups retreated to the steppe. Indeed, subsequently, new confederations appear such as Kutrigur, Utigur, Onogur / (Onoghur), Sarigur, etc., which were collectively called "Huns","Bulgarian Huns", or "Bulgars". Similarly, the 6th century Slavs were presented as Hun groups by Procopius.
    However, it is likely that Graeco-Roman sources habitually equated new barbarian political groupings with old tribes. This was partly due to expectation that contemporary writers emulate the ‘great writers’ of preceding eras. Apart from exigencies in style was the belief that barbarians from particular areas were all the same, no matter how they changed their name
    The literary sources, Priscus and Jordanes, preserve only a few names and three words of the language of the Huns, which have been studied for more than a century and a half. The sources themselves do not give the meaning of any of the names, only of the three words. These words (medos, kamos, strava) do not seem to be Turkic,[21] but probably a satem Indo-European language similar to Slavic and Dacian.
    "All we can say safely," says Walter Pohl, "is that the name Huns, in late antiquity (4th century), described prestigious ruling groups of steppe warriors."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns

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    Q1b is specially asociated to Jews when it's found in Europe. The vast majority of European Q1b's are Jews or have Jewish roots, but of course this subclade can be also located outside of Europe without a connection with them.

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    But I cannot understand how mongoloid genes (haplogroup) arrived in Denmark and Sweden.
    Even a very little in the Netherlands. The north of the Netherlands were isolated. During
    the Migration Age no tribes from the south and east arrived there. In the North
    of Germany and Netherlands there were only emigrants (Anglo-Saxons), but no immigrants.

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    Those places are not considered isolated. Even the Basques and the Lithuanians with a huge isolation have haplogroup Q...I don't see nothing rare there. And of course, Sweeden it's quite obvious since Finland is next to it and Mongoloid genes are common there, so no difficulty to get into Sweeden.

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    I'm sorry, but it crossed my mind that the association of Haplogroup Q with the Huns is purely coincidential (especially, the Huns by no means explain these high peaks in Scandinavia). Specifically, what I noticed is that there appears to be a rather good match between Haplogroup R1a1a and Northern/Eastern European variety of Haplogroup Q, so here is my suggestion (playing the devil's advocate, if you will): what if Haplogroup Q is Chalcolithic in age, and entered Europe alongside with R1a1a?

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    Interesting Taranis, it's quite plausible. There is a big correlation with spread of R1a in Europe.

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    Yes, it's a very interesting view of point indeed. Never thought about it. It explains many thing to me, but also raises some other questions. But I think there's a correlation between Q and R1a.

    Maybe R1a entered Europe in multiple waves. And during one of such waves the R1a folks carried some Q with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'm sorry, but it crossed my mind that the association of Haplogroup Q with the Huns is purely coincidential (especially, the Huns by no means explain these high peaks in Scandinavia). Specifically, what I noticed is that there appears to be a rather good match between Haplogroup R1a1a and Northern/Eastern European variety of Haplogroup Q, so here is my suggestion (playing the devil's advocate, if you will): what if Haplogroup Q is Chalcolithic in age, and entered Europe alongside with R1a1a?
    excellent observation Taranis

    there is correlation in Scandinavia, on Iceland and in Kurdistan, which strongly suggests you are right
    on other hand hotspots in Ukraine and Hungary are in my opinion also related to reminder of Huns..

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    south most Spain, Sicily and Sardinia could indeed be due to Phoenicians as suggested by Maciamo, as there is a hotspot in Lebanon too...




    interestingly north Africa seems to lack Q which is according to this marker of Phoenicians...this could indicate that almost no Phoenicians survived there...

    alternatively, Q could have been spread to south Spain, Sicily and Sardinia by Vandals and Alans... or perhaps by some mercenaries fighting for Byzantium...


    the most curious part are Basques... perhaps they had trade partnership with Phoenicians...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    excellent observation Taranis

    there is correlation in Scandinavia, on Iceland and in Kurdistan, which strongly suggests you are right
    on other hand hotspots in Ukraine and Hungary are in my opinion also related to reminder of Huns..
    With all due respect, but there is almost no Q among Kurds in Kurdistan. You see a concentration of Q in Turkey in Central Anatolia, where the most real ethnic Turks live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'm sorry, but it crossed my mind that the association of Haplogroup Q with the Huns is purely coincidential (especially, the Huns by no means explain these high peaks in Scandinavia). Specifically, what I noticed is that there appears to be a rather good match between Haplogroup R1a1a and Northern/Eastern European variety of Haplogroup Q, so here is my suggestion (playing the devil's advocate, if you will): what if Haplogroup Q is Chalcolithic in age, and entered Europe alongside with R1a1a?
    I also thought about Q entering Europe from Central Asia alongside R1a, but then Q should be found in more or less equal proportion to R1a everywhere, at least within the Slavic zone, which is not at al the case. Q peaks in Ukraine and around Slovakia but is relatively rare among Russians and Poles. Furthermore, Q is very common in Sweden and Norway, where the R1a is of a completely different variety from the Slavic R1a. Mind you, R1a doesn't even reach 20% in Sweden, a far cry from the 60% of the Russo-Ukrainian border.

    The fact that there is no documented proof of the Huns settling is Scandinavia is irreleveant in my eyes, because plenty of ancient migrations are unrecorded, especially in places distant from civilisations that possessed writing, like the Romans or Greeks.

    I maintain my hypothesis that Q is of Hunnic origin because :

    1) Q originated very far away from Europe, and only the Huns invaded Europe en masse from that region of central Siberia.

    2) there is a lot of diversity in Q subclades in Europe, but absolutely no pattern in their distribution, which suggests that they all came together at the same time. The region with the most diversity of Q is central Siberia.

    3) The extent of Q within Europe matches surprisingly well the borders of the Hunnic Empire (+ a northward expansion to Scandinavia), and the hotspots match the regions where the Huns are known to have been retreated after being defeated (Ukraine steppes + Carpathians).

    4) Hunnic rulers like Attila are known to have had a great number of concubines (perhaps over 100), which is a good way of spreading Y-DNA haplogroups very fast. If Genghis Khan and his sons can be credited for the large number of men belonging to haplogroup C3 in Central Asia, then the 0.5 to 2% of haplogroup Q dispersed over Central Europe could just as well be the work of prolific Hunnic progenitors - a sort of founder effect, which I believe also happened with R1b in Western Europe, but to a much bigger proportion.

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    Kiev, Ukraine and Russians were many times attacked and invaded by the Tatars from the east. There're many descendants of these Tatars in Europe. Like the Crimean Tatars in Ukraine, Lipka Tatars in Lithuania and Volga Tatars in Russia. Maybe many of these Tatars have been assimilated and are 'East Europeans' now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Kiev, Ukraine and Russians were many times attacked and invaded by the Tatars from the east. There're many descendants of these Tatars in Europe. Like the Crimean Tatars in Ukraine, Lipka Tatars in Lithuania and Volga Tatars in Russia. Maybe many of these Tatars have been assimilated and are 'East Europeans' now.
    Probably, but various groups of Tatars were tested for Y-DNA, and they are a pretty mixed bunch (hg E, G, I, J2, R1a, R1b), predominantly R1a though, with little hg Q - too little to influence the percentages in Eastern Europe, and obviously without any influence on Central Europe or Scandinavia.

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