New map of haplogroup T

[adamo]

The massive maciamo with the appropriate comments

[Sile]

Maps of commercial samples are useless to know the actual frequency in each country and region because:

1) People in richer countries buy more commercial tests. This map makes it look like T is more common in the United Emirates and Saudi Arabia than in Iraq and Egypt, which is completely false.
2) Genetic genealogy is not equally popular between rich countries (e.g. far more popular in Britain than France). Based on this map it would appear that T is vastly more common in Britain, the Netherlands and Germany than in France, Spain and northern Italy, which is nonsense.
3) Commercial samples include a lot of colonial data of people who may not know for sure where their patrilinal ancestors came from (and even if they do, the chances of non-paternity event from someone with completely different roots would falsify the results).
4) A lot of commercial samples from Central and Eastern Europe are from Ashkenazi Jews and are not representative of the non-Jewish population of these countries. This is quite obvious on this map.

Just to clarify and not alter your arguement, the map contains only 67 markers and above and only gathered from FTDNA and 1000genomes ( if thats how you spell it)

My aim is to find out who brought the T into europe , we can guess the south being Phoenician, but the north?

And T will diminish in percentage even though the numbers will increase for T as more people do DNA test ............that's a fact

[adamo]

Good comments although t is found in 8-10% of omanis and emirians and is certainly present in saudis as well. Can someone please try to decipher the snp values i posted; ZERO matches on ftdna.

[Sile]

@Desert Fox

You are after British T marked people, then go to internet....Ftdna T project..........then map....use scroll bar until you get to Gamma-2-C predicted L131+. it will show you 39 out of 43 in europe to be in britain...plus another 20 in the northern USA

Only issue is that you are not L131


Are they Picts ? or Gaels...........I would laugh if they are

[adamo]

I have found one individual on genographic project with T-M272+ from the Caucasus of Avar origin; the Avars are said to have resided anciently in the Khorasan region of Iran near the afghan border, this would make sense.

[adamo]

Recently saw a map showing 0% T in northern Lebanon and 5% in the south (both these regions had 20% J1.) 1% T in northern Syria and 8% in the south (the north has about 27% J1 whereas the south oddly showed only 12%.) Eastern Turkey had 6% T and Israel had 7% (both regions had about 10% J1). Yemen had 4% T and 35% J1. Western Iran on the Iraqi border has 13% T and 11% J1. East central Iraq has 11% T and 16% J1 whereas west central Iraq has 14% T and 16% J1. Northeastern Iraq had 6% T whereas northwestern Iraq had a whopping 19% T and 22% J1.. THe extreme north of Iraq on the Turkish border shows 15% T and 21% J1.

[adamo]

The Levantine regions (Lebanon, Syria, Israel,) show about 1-8% T (we know Jordanians have 21% nationally) and Yemenites have 4% (although UAE and Oman have 10%.) eastern turkey has 6%, but western Iran has 13% and central Iraq has 10-15%. Northern Iraq has 5-20% depending on the particular region.

[adamo]

this is the map; T frequencies are underlined and j1 frequencies are in parenthesessecuredownload.jpg

These are frequencies for "minority groups" whatever that means, and I'm hoping this map is about y-DNA lol, which I think it is

[adamo]

Judging from the underlined values in this map, T is certainly more frequent towards Iran/Iraq than the levant, Arabian or Anatolian peninsulas, any thoughts ?

[Sile]

this is the map; T frequencies are underlined and j1 frequencies are in parenthesessecuredownload.jpg

These are frequencies for "minority groups" whatever that means, and I'm hoping this map is about y-DNA lol, which I think it is

the map is about 2 years old and comes from the Armenia forum and it has to do with a link between . locations and there association with the northern Caucasus. It was plotted by someone......maybe Humanist or a colleague, i cannot remember

[adamo]

I find it strange how the T marker peaks on the Ibiza islands (16%) southern Spanish city of Cadiz, westernmost Sicily, northern Corsica, Crete and the Aegean region, the island of Chios, parts of Italy; most of those places I just mentioned where Phoenician colonies at one time or another. Extremely rare and localized around ancient Phoenician sites; one might assume a guy like cristiano Ronaldo would have the T marker .

[The Desert Fox]

The old version from a few months ago had a much higher level of T in northern Europe. But after comibing all studies for every country, I noticed that the "hotspots" in some regions were simply due to sampling bias or the fact that people assumed that hg K in older studies was necessarily T, something that was disproved by newer studies. Overall there isn't a single North European country where T exceeds 1%, except Estonia, but I am confident that this is also a sampling bias and that later studies will also lower that percentage.

Over the years I have realised that the rarer a haplogroup is, the more important it is to have a large sample size to avoid sampling bias. For haplogroup T it is hard to trust data for any country if there is less than 1000 samples. Local peaks in tiny samples under 100 are not representative and indeed very misleading, which is why they should be ignored.

Studies published before 2010 (or some even after that) did not specifically test for T, but only for K, which may also includes L, N or actual K*. Therefore data from such studies should be taken with a pinch of salt and percentages of T always revised downward compared to K.

Thanks for this. Opinions vary. Professional population geneticists will take a minimum of 20 sample number. I think the Wikipedia site gives the most balanced view on T-184 and gives its full reference sources without making arbitrary selections of data. However this discussion seems largely irrelevant now. The most significant finding - from the 2015 Nature study led by David Reich's group (Haak et al, 2015) is the only ancient DNA sample with T1a found ..... & surprise, surprise, happens to be in the centre of Germany - the Karsdorf man (~5000BC).

[Sile]

Thanks for this. Opinions vary. Professional population geneticists will take a minimum of 20 sample number. I think the Wikipedia site gives the most balanced view on T-184 and gives its full reference sources without making arbitrary selections of data. However this discussion seems largely irrelevant now. The most significant finding - from the 2015 Nature study led by David Reich's group (Haak et al, 2015) is the only ancient DNA sample with T1a found ..... & surprise, surprise, happens to be in the centre of Germany - the Karsdorf man (~5000BC).

what do you think of this K-M9 marker .............in regards to L and T

LT (referring to the joint root of L and T, not the range L to T). Instead, we therefore prefer the more intuitive labels CDEF and BCDEF,respectively,as used in previous publications [Heinrich et al., 2009; Underhill and Kivisild, 2007; van Oven et al., 2011].
Within the large K-M9 clade, which encompasses haplogroups L, M, NO, P (including Q and R), S, and T, a deep bifurcation was revealed, with haplogroups M, NO, P, and S falling in one subclade, defined by marker M526 [Chiaroni et al., 2009], and haplogroups L and T falling in the other subclade, defined by marker P326 [Mendez et al., 2011]. The latter subclade logically being labeled LT [Mendezet al., 2011], we “downgraded” the K label to designate the other, M526-defined subclade, and used KLT for the unifying M9-defined clade, as proposed previously [van Oven et al., 2011].

[RobertColumbia]

Looks like T was successful among Neolithic farmers and rise of ancient Mediterranean civilizations. It is present in Egypt, Israel, Phoenician colonies, very strong in Greece and it's colonies.

Amazing is how it was cleaned up by Atlantic coast from Basque to Normandy and in Ireland. Most likely by some Celtic tribes.

Very interesting is high T signature in Estonia.

The elevated presence of T in Estonia is quite interesting. Do you suppose that it could have come there by sea? T is also common in many sea-accessible locations like Gibraltar, Sicily, Crete, Cyprus, and Tunisia. Is there any evidence of Phoenician settlements in Estonia?

[LeBrok]

The elevated presence of T in Estonia is quite interesting. Do you suppose that it could have come there by sea? T is also common in many sea-accessible locations like Gibraltar, Sicily, Crete, Cyprus, and Tunisia. Is there any evidence of Phoenician settlements in Estonia?

I wish I knew, I was commenting about the map of hg T.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml

Might as well been a lost legion of Romans or Greeks, or indeed Phoenician, or it is very ancient since Neolithic from one successful farmer. We need to wait for many ancient results to figure this one out.

[Regio X]

The elevated presence of T in Estonia is quite interesting. Do you suppose that it could have come there by sea? T is also common in many sea-accessible locations like Gibraltar, Sicily, Crete, Cyprus, and Tunisia. Is there any evidence of Phoenician settlements in Estonia?

I read in Anthrogenica that L2-l595 highest frequency is found in Estonia, and that it matches the areas of T1a (with exceptions).

[RobertColumbia]

...Of course the map is only a rough approximation since frequencies can vary hugely from one study to another for rare haplogroups, and not all regions have reliable studies....

Thank you for mentioning this. Much of the DNA testing that is going on nowadays is self-selected, which is about the worst sampling bias you can have. Even without self-selection, you generally need a very large sample size to accurately measure rare traits. For example, if you grabbed five people at random off the street and asked them whether any of them had a doctoral degree in humanities (and if so, to prove it by showing a copy of their degree), the percentage that you are going to get is likely to be extremely divergent from the more accurate number you would probably get if you polled a thousand people. With these rare traits, minor disturbances in distribution are likely to get magnified. For example, polling random people on the campus of Penn State is likely to get you an overly high estimate of the number of doctorates in the state of Pennsylvania while polling random people at a Pennsylvania prison would likely underestimate of the number of doctorates in Pennsylvania.

[Sile]

The elevated presence of T in Estonia is quite interesting. Do you suppose that it could have come there by sea? T is also common in many sea-accessible locations like Gibraltar, Sicily, Crete, Cyprus, and Tunisia. Is there any evidence of Phoenician settlements in Estonia?

this below was one of the papers that placed 6.5% of T in Estonia
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...3.00119.x/full

[SomaLion]

Tut's hg was IMPLIED to be that based on a SCREENSHOT. Until the actual data is formally presented...... your strange conclusion deserves no real comment.

Well, Egypt was certainly Caucasoid and King Tut's Y-DNA is R1b, which is the most popular haplogroup in Western Europe. Egypt was not "African" in the sense of "black African" or Negroid.

And we Caucasoids haven't been African for thousands of years. What's your point? That we came out of Africa so therefore we are Africans? My ancestors haven't been in Africa for six times more recorded human history. I think it's safe to say we aren't Africans.

Spanish people are hardly Caucasoid. Keep shaking that tree, bub.

"Africa begins at the Pyrenees."