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  1. #1
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    1 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow New map of haplogroup T

    I am in a creative mood lately. After making new maps for haplogroups I1, I2b and Q, here is haplogroup T. There was already a map of hg T on Wikipedia (from which I got a little inspiration), but I didn't like it because it didn't distinguish between areas with less than 0.5%, 0.5 to 1% and 1 to 2%. That's an important distinction since T is pretty rare in Europe and rarely exceeds 5%. Another reason I didn't like the map on Wiki is that it takes percentages for point-locations with tiny sample sizes instead of making averages for the region. That's how you get ludicrous results, like an isolated peak of 17% in one Sicilian town.

    Of course the map is only a rough approximation since frequencies can vary hugely from one study to another for rare haplogroups, and not all regions have reliable studies.

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    Another great map, thanks. As they get more resolution they get more interesting.

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    sea peoples , most probably mycenean Arcadian, cannot be phonenician because a lot of lands that the phoenicians settled are missing.

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    Looks like T was successful among Neolithic farmers and rise of ancient Mediterranean civilizations. It is present in Egypt, Israel, Phoenician colonies, very strong in Greece and it's colonies.

    Amazing is how it was cleaned up by Atlantic coast from Basque to Normandy and in Ireland. Most likely by some Celtic tribes.

    Very interesting is high T signature in Estonia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Looks like T was successful among Neolithic farmers and rise of ancient Mediterranean civilizations. It is present in Egypt, Israel, Phoenician colonies, very strong in Greece and it's colonies.

    Amazing is how it was cleaned up by Atlantic coast from Basque to Normandy and in Ireland. Most likely by some Celtic tribes.

    Very interesting is high T signature in Estonia.
    The elevated presence of T in Estonia is quite interesting. Do you suppose that it could have come there by sea? T is also common in many sea-accessible locations like Gibraltar, Sicily, Crete, Cyprus, and Tunisia. Is there any evidence of Phoenician settlements in Estonia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    The elevated presence of T in Estonia is quite interesting. Do you suppose that it could have come there by sea? T is also common in many sea-accessible locations like Gibraltar, Sicily, Crete, Cyprus, and Tunisia. Is there any evidence of Phoenician settlements in Estonia?
    I wish I knew, I was commenting about the map of hg T.


    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_Y-DNA.shtml

    Might as well been a lost legion of Romans or Greeks, or indeed Phoenician, or it is very ancient since Neolithic from one successful farmer. We need to wait for many ancient results to figure this one out.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    The elevated presence of T in Estonia is quite interesting. Do you suppose that it could have come there by sea? T is also common in many sea-accessible locations like Gibraltar, Sicily, Crete, Cyprus, and Tunisia. Is there any evidence of Phoenician settlements in Estonia?
    I read in Anthrogenica that L2-l595 highest frequency is found in Estonia, and that it matches the areas of T1a (with exceptions).

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertColumbia View Post
    The elevated presence of T in Estonia is quite interesting. Do you suppose that it could have come there by sea? T is also common in many sea-accessible locations like Gibraltar, Sicily, Crete, Cyprus, and Tunisia. Is there any evidence of Phoenician settlements in Estonia?
    this below was one of the papers that placed 6.5% of T in Estonia
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...3.00119.x/full
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    The wikipedia map is just a joke, and I also think I know the dement who created it...too bad xd

    This one is much better in general terms, showing lower percents. Much more reasonable.

    Question: ¿What about haplogroup T between the Pasiegos? ¿Do they show a significant percent of this haplogroup like happens for example with haplogroup E?

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    Question

    Maciamo said: "I didn't like it because it didn't distinguish between areas with less than 0.5%, 0.5 to 1% and 1 to 2%. That's an important distinction since T is pretty rare in Europe and rarely exceeds 5%" So why is the wiki one made by a demented person? I don't see why this Spanish poster has an issue with it. T is mostly in Africa now. Does that bother you? It was Asiatic and moved into Africa. Very little is in Europe as Maciamo pointed out, but the highest is in Africa. What is the issue there? Is being African a scourge now?? My brothers and father are T1.

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    I think that haplogroup T is very ancient and that the very first people that belonged to T were 'dark' skinned folks, like eastern Africans. T in the Middle East can maybe associated with the Elamites... But I'm not if sure if the original T folks were black, maybe the first T was Middle Eastern and rose around the Persian Gulf and not in East Africa. What do you guys think about it?

    Why is there almost no T in North Africa? You can find J1 there because of the Arabs and the Arabic conquest, but ain't no T. Strange because I think that the Arabs might have imported some T in the region.

    There's more T in Europe than in North Africa, why?

    Are there any subsclade of T, like the European T, Middleeastern T, Caucasian T and African T, or are all the T's the same?

    Maybe T (and J1) in the Caucasus is due to the Arabic invasions in the region.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_in_the_Caucasus

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    T seems to be more than 30.000 years old, so I think the first T's were black and Eastern Africa is the best place to focus its origin. Of course this haplogroup it's related with the middle east and other regions due to the antiquity, and there are also subclades that are possible to identify with those diferent places. However, I don't know so much about it, probably there is little or nothing clear on this.

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    Yes, but there is almost ALL African T only in Somalia and eastern Ethiopia (Egypt is an Arabic country) and nowhere else in the inland of Africa. It's only there and not in the inner Africa but on the East Coast around the Gulf of Aden and Arabian Sea. In the past (and maybe nowadays) the mainstream group of anthropologists considered Ethiopians as the 'darkest' Caucasoid group or ethnicity.

    Once again, there is no T in Africa, but only in a very small (relatively speaking) area around the Gulf of Aden and the Arabians Sea. In general there's more T in Europe and Middle East than in Africa.

    Maybe T was spread by the sea into East Africa and East India by the Elamites and their kinsmen. And that the T folks in East Africa are actually from the Middle East?

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    There was a backmigration of peoples into Africa about 30,000 years ago and 9,000 years ago (the Semitic speaking Neolithic farmers).

    http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publication...0_p265-268.pdf

    "Anyway, the gist of these collected DNA studies is that Ethiopians are about 40% Caucasian, and are genetically a little more closely related to Mediterranean Caucasian groups like Berbers and Arabs than Western Africans."

    http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wor...sian-africans/

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    T reach high levels in all Cameroon (18%), and it's in the opposite side of Africa. So the presence in Africa is enough significant to focus it's origin there, specially in East Africa where the highest frequencies are located.

    Tanzania is also mentioned here in Eupedia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    T reach high levels in all Cameroon (18%), and it's in the opposite side of Africa. So the presence in Africa is enough significant to focus it's origin there, specially in East Africa where the highest frequencies are located.
    Ok, but wasn't Cameroon a place with very, very high level presence of R1b too?

    Maybe T entered Cameroon together with R1b?

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    I don't remember if was Cameroon the country with this special r1b, but it's true that this variant was detected in several African regions. What you say is not impossible, but normally the easiest answer is the correct one. So I personaly prefer the East African origin option, althought your's is another posibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    I don't remember if was Cameroon the country with this special r1b, but it's true that this variant was detected in several African regions. What you say is not impossible, but normally the easiest answer is the correct one. So I personaly prefer the East African origin option, althought your's is another posibility.
    No, I don't prefer any theory. My opinion is 50-50. I'm just trying to be open-minded and don't want to exclude other possibilities.

    R1b in Cameroon. And according to you there is also T in Cameroon. Maybe there is a correlation between the 2 haplogroups?



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    No, I don't prefer any theory. My opinion is 50-50. I'm just trying to be open-minded and don't want to exclude other possibilities.

    R1b in Cameroon. And according to you there is also T in Cameroon. Maybe there is a correlation between the 2 haplogroups?



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)
    The European branch of R1b (M269) is 0.0%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    The European branch of R1b (M269) is 0.0%
    Yes, but the original R1b is not from Europe nor from Africa. Folks in Cameroon and folks in Europe with R1b just share the same ancestors. Then R1b in Europe and Africa evolved separate. But European R1b is closer to African R1b than to the European R1a.

    Maybe the same R1b folks (from the Middle East) that entered Cameroon brought T into this part of Africa?

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    [QUOTE=Goga;376977]Yes, but the original R1b is not from Europe nor from Africa. Folks in Cameroon and folks in Europe with R1b just share the same ancestors. Then R1b in Europe and Africa evolved separate. But European R1b is closer to African R1b than to the European R1a.

    Maybe the same R1b folks (from the Middle East) that entered Cameroon brought T into this part of Africa?[/QUOTE]

    That's very likely, and I think this is what's happened.

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    Were the results of the Mendez et al. study included in the frequencies?

    Increased Resolution of Y Chromosome Haplogroup T Defines Relationships among Populations of the Near East, Europe,and Africa
    Hum Biol. 2011 Feb;83(1):39-53.

    Code:
    POP	n	T	M184*	M70*	PS21*	P77	P330	P321*	P317	L131*	P322*	P327
    EGY	150	7%			6%	1%						
    TUN	34	0%										
    ETH	58	7%			7%							
    PAL	115	5%			1%	1%						4%
    BED	28	0%										
    DRU	39	8%			8%							
    JOR	187	3%			2%	1%				1%		
    LEB	34	0%										
    SYR	95	5%	1%		2%	1%		1%				
    TUR	284	1%			0%					1%		
    ASY	31	13%			10%		3%					
    IRQ	36	6%			3%	3%						
    IRN	73	1%			1%							
    KSA	33	0%										
    YEM	18	0%										
    MOJ	54	8%			6%	2%						
    TUJ	10	0%										
    ETJ	21	5%			5%							
    KJ	50	18%			8%	10%						
    IRQJ	32	22%		9%		13%						
    IRNJ	22	14%		9%		5%						
    YEMJ	44	7%				5%					2%	
    UZBJ	9	0%										
    BULJ	42	5%								5%		
    TURJ	34	6%			3%	3%						
    ROMJ	53	6%			2%				4%			
    ASHJ	587	1%			1%					0%		
    BUL	29	0%										
    LEM	34	18%								18%
    Frequencies rounded to nearest whole percent.

    Population POP
    Egyptian EGY
    Tunisians TUN
    Ethiopians ETH
    Palestinians PAL
    Bedouins BED
    Druze DRU
    Jordanians JOR
    Lebanese LEB
    Syrians SYR
    Turks TUR
    Assyrians ASY
    Iraqis IRQ
    Iranians IRN
    Saudi Arabians KSA
    Yemenis YEM
    Moroccan Jews MOJ
    Tunisian Jews TUJ
    Ethiopian Jews ETJ
    Kurdish Jews KJ
    Iraqi Jews IRQJ
    Iranian Jews IRNJ
    Yemenite Jews YEMJ
    Uzbek Jews UZBJ
    Bulgarian Jews BULJ
    Turkish Jews TURJ
    Roman Jews ROMJ
    Ashkenazi Jews ASHJ
    Bulgarians BUL
    Lemba LEM

    Origin and Dispersal of Haplogroup T in the Near East. Three lines of
    evidence support the hypothesis that haplogroup T originated in the Near East
    and subsequently expanded from there. First, the geographic distribution of the
    two sister clades, haplogroup L and haplogroup T, overlap in the Near East,
    although L has a more easterly epicenter in India and Pakistan (Sengupta et al.
    2006). Second, almost all of M70* chromosomes surveyed here are found in the
    Near East, and the two main subclades (T1a and T1b) also predominate in this area.
    Finally, the internal structure of the T clade, with the single T* sample coming from
    Syria, provides evidence that the most basal haplogroup T branch is present in the Near East.

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    And, for those interested, a PC plot from Mendez et al., of the "kinship R matrix" based on the Y-DNA frequencies for populations (after removal of outliers).

    Populations:
    Assyr (Assyrians), Druze (Druze), Egy(Egyptians), IraqA (Iraqis), Jord (Jordanians), Pal (Palestinians), Syr (Syrians), Turk (Turks), BulJ (Bulgarian Jews), IraqJ (Iraqi Jews), ItaJ (Italian Jews), KurdJ (Kurdish Jews) MorJ (Moroccan Jews), TurJ (Turkish Jews), Yem (Yemenites), YemJ(Yemenite Jews).
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    To Maciamo

    in March 2012 , the estonian T on your map was haplogroup L

    Estonia (The Estonian y-STR haplotypes belonging to K* belongs to L2-L595 but not T-M184)


    I know T and L came from K , so unless you have other data for estonia then it should be L

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