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Thread: New R1a map

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Croatia is not , for example, Poland with it's 50-60% r1a. It's not Russia with 50% or Ukraine with 40-50%, it's not "hardcore" Slavic territory, but there is Slavic genetic influence in Croatia, at a lower level. And I2a1b is not indicative of Slavs, it's barely found in Poland and they are "core" territory Slavs. It is balkanian, for example Bosnians and herzegovinans have 50-60% I2a1b but much lower total R1a levels, I2a1b does not mean Slavs. R1a does.
    try to learn Croatian if you are not sure of their Slavic origin

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    Yes they DO (Croatians) have Slavic origins, as their language would also suggest and genetics also upholds (20-35%) R1a. But these more recent Slavic invaders, coming from the Russian steppes and the Ukraine are similar to the Slavs that pushed west into Europe reaching such places as Poland, Slovakia, parts of Czech Republic and affecting Slovenians etc. in my opinion they sort of "mixed in" with the local indigenous haplogroup I2a1b men of the Balkans. This is what it is to be Croatian, some of them hold the genetic legacy of the indigenous haplogroup I men (40 or so percent) and others arrived more recently with the Slavic migrations and brought their immigrant language with them but, clearly, these R1a men where not the overwhelming majority, they significantly impacted Croatia but they are not as much as in Poland Ukraine, Belarus or Russia. Can someone correct me if my theory is invalid or incorrect? : )

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Yes they DO (Croatians) have Slavic origins, as their language would also suggest and genetics also upholds (20-35%) R1a. But these more recent Slavic invaders, coming from the Russian steppes and the Ukraine are similar to the Slavs that pushed west into Europe reaching such places as Poland, Slovakia, parts of Czech Republic and affecting Slovenians etc. in my opinion they sort of "mixed in" with the local indigenous haplogroup I2a1b men of the Balkans. This is what it is to be Croatian, some of them hold the genetic legacy of the indigenous haplogroup I men (40 or so percent) and others arrived more recently with the Slavic migrations and brought their immigrant language with them but, clearly, these R1a men where not the overwhelming majority, they significantly impacted Croatia but they are not as much as in Poland Ukraine, Belarus or Russia. Can someone correct me if my theory is invalid or incorrect? : )
    I agree with your statement Adamo. There is a trend to dislocate the Slavic people from the R1a orientation-- why this is I'm not sure. At some point the maps tell you all you need to know. I think political agendas begin to creep into this field and this clouds what was at one point was painfully obvious.

    When in doubt, check the maps.

  4. #154
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    Thank you for the validation on my hypothesis, it is much appreciated! : )

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    This is what it is to be Croatian, some of them hold the genetic legacy of the indigenous haplogroup I men (40 or so percent) and others arrived more recently with the Slavic migrations and brought their immigrant language with them but, clearly, these R1a men where not the overwhelming majority, they significantly impacted Croatia but they are not as much as in Poland Ukraine, Belarus or Russia. Can someone correct me if my theory is invalid or incorrect? : )
    Both genetic stamps, R1a and I2a, came from the Eastern Europe, called in antiquity Scythia. I2a belonged to the Ostrogoths and they migrated South, therefore you won't find much of this stamp in Poland.

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    No haplogroup I2a originated in southeastern Europe some 15,000 to 17,000 years ago. It is not linked to the far more recent migrations of R1a people's towards Eastern Europe getting closer to the Balkans such as Czech R1a, Slovenians, Croats r1a etc. different movements that where not all perpetrated at the same time by a Slavic group

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    The original I2a movement certainly was not Slavic but there are younger, rarer sub-branches found at lower frequencies that may have moved around later with the influence of Slavs and incoming Slavic culture, but at the very core, I2a is not "Slavic" per say, it's indigenous balkanian

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I2a is not "Slavic" per say, it's indigenous balkanian
    If I2a was Balkanian, you would not find 21% of it in Ukraine.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Why not? It's found in 25% of Romanians which is just under Ukraine....it's also found in Moldova...what would stop it from reaching Ukraine at a one out of five boys frequency?

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Why not? It's found in 25% of Romanians which is just under Ukraine....it's also found in Moldova...what would stop it from reaching Ukraine at a one out of five boys frequency?
    Do not forget of Visigoths who carried the same I2a as Ostrogoths. I2a did not originate in Balkans but in Scythia. There is still more people with I2a in the former Scythia (Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Slovakia, Czechia) then in the whole Balkans. About 15 million men in the former Scythian lands compared to about 7.5 million men in the Balkan peninsula.

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    Didn't your I2a Ostrogoths pass through and set up a kingdom in Italy? Well if they did which I know they did they didn't genetically impact italians much did they with either I2a or R1a for that matter...maybe many of these army movements and kingdoms didn't necessarily affect much or change the genetic composition of all the places they went? In other words they didn't really successfully bring I2a to the Italians did they. Most DNA test related to your scythians that first enter history in 800 b.c show haplogroup R-M17 results. Often times, ancient historical accounts become disproved with time. The scythians where referred to as a variety of groups stretching from the Black Sea to central Asians Siberia. They where not a specific people but rather a variety of people's referred to at different times in history and in several places none of which was their original homeland. I think Ostrogoths having had I2a is more likely but clearly they did not spread this in all the places they ended up such as Italy, thus placing doubt on this theory in my opinion.

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    Since Ostrogoths seem to be linked with Romanians, coastal Adriatic Illyrians where I2 dinaric is found at its highest frequencies maybe they where Ostrogoths but I don't think I2a had this Slavic-type movement from Russia/Ukraine down to those areas I just stated above,

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    I don't think I2a had this Slavic-type movement from Russia/Ukraine down to those areas I just stated above,
    Why not? We have over 15 million males in Eastern/Middle Europe carrying the I2a, compared to 7.5 million of the same gene in Balkans! Have you ever heard of people from the warm climate land, adjacent to the warm sea, who decided to migrate to the frozen steppes?

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    Because that's just not where haplogroup I passed lol. It came to the Balkans via Europe thousands of years before contact with R1a men. Some of it later diversified and new younger sub-branches such as I2a2 was born that may have allied with Slavs and followed them around, but originally I just didn't enter Europe the same way or time as R1a they where two different cultures of which certain subgroups eventually met up and fused, but at the origin they have a different.....point of origin! Lol. Now unless haplogroup I crossed the Caucasus stayed on the coast of Black Sea and ended up near Moldova as its origin point but even then this would probably have took place at a different time than R1a movement to the area I just doubt it very much...either way its a different branch of the tree so they must have fusioned very recently during Slavic migrations. Haplogroup I like its brother J would go through Middle East and leave via Anatolia to Europe, just many many thousands of years before a few J2 men would enter Europe, I left for Europe long ago whereas majority of J decided to stay in Middle East and is still there today other than some later (5000 years ago possibly) Neolithic J2 moving to the southern MediterraneanMediterranean..... Totally different branch than R1 going around Central Asia, splitting off from Q and then going through Russian steppes..... The only reason the I men are white is because they moved from Middle East to Europe and have been in freezing Europe for the longest time during the LGM in the Balkans Refugia, after even the men of I1a migrating to northern Scandinavia......the men of R1 are also white because they moved to cold Central Asia and for thousands of years across frigid Russia eventually to Europe but....just not the same branch of humanity. R1a is Slavic and I is balkanian, Nordic (Scandinavian branch) etc.
    Last edited by adamo; 15-04-13 at 22:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    Why not? It's found in 25% of Romanians which is just under Ukraine....it's also found in Moldova...what would stop it from reaching Ukraine at a one out of five boys frequency?

    Adamo,that's a very good point.

    Whitout any doubt migrations also occured in the "south-to-north" direction.
    I don't know if the carriers brought the HG. I2 with them, but:

    -in the 1st century BC we have the expansion of the Getae-Dacians under the rule of Burebista.

    -at that time Agrippa mentions:“Dacia, Getico finiuntur ab oriente desertis Sarmatiae, ab occidente flumine Vistula, a septentrione Oceano( the Northern border,the Ocean=Baltic Sea), a meridie flumine Histro. Quae patent in longitudine milia passuum CCLXXX, in latitudine qua cogitum est milia passuum CCCLXXXVI
    and i dont't think he was taking pills, but the Romans knew those places because of the "Amber Road".

    I am talking about some guys who appeared in the Roman sculptures&Trajan's Column whether with a western Polish-Baltic look, or an eastern Ukrainean-Russian look.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by al-kochol View Post
    Do not forget of Visigoths who carried the same I2a as Ostrogoths. I2a did not originate in Balkans but in Scythia. There is still more people with I2a in the former Scythia (Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Slovakia, Czechia) then in the whole Balkans. About 15 million men in the former Scythian lands compared to about 7.5 million men in the Balkan peninsula.
    where did you find ancient Y-DNA telling you Ostrogoths and Ostrogoths were Y-I2a ???

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    R1a in southern Italy according to Sarno et al.
    Trapani 2,94%
    Agrigento 2,22%
    Enna 2,5%
    Ragusa/Siracusa 8,89%
    Catania 5,77%
    Cosenza 6,67%
    Matera 4%
    Lecce 7,5%

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    Perhaps the R1a in Burgundy can be attributed to the Alani tribes that settled in that area during the reign of the praetor Aetitius, he also allowed late comer Alani that couldn't find land to relocate to Armorica, modern Normandy.

    Aetitius struck a deal with the Alani, he needed people who would pay the Roman tax collector, thus the Alani were allowed to dispossess (violently) the original inhabitants around Orleans, well Orleans is located near Burgundy and these people didn't adhere to political boundaries.

    The Bishop of Rouen, or was it Amiens, complained to Aetitius about the violence with which the Alani displaced the inhabitants of Armorica, so he withdrew his permission, but too late.

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    Hey people! My paternal ancestor was from Hesse and my deep clade of R1a -FGC10360
    My deep clade is R-FGC10360 and this website(https://phylogeographer.com/) showed me the story of this subclade in Europe. This subclade correlates with celtic and later with germanic tribes(Przeworsk, Oksywie and Wielbark cultures)
    Attachment 11683
    Attachment 11684
    I think that is burgundian or other east germanic origin. R1a was in Germany and Poland before slavic migrations in this lands
    Attachment 11685
    I think that R1a-Z280 is not only balto-slavic, because in W.Europe it can be found among germanic people and in areas where were not slavic or baltic migrations

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    Quote Originally Posted by AxelHagen View Post
    Hey people! My paternal ancestor was from Hesse and my deep clade of R1a -FGC10360
    My deep clade is R-FGC10360 and this website(https://phylogeographer.com/) showed me the story of this subclade in Europe. This subclade correlates with celtic and later with germanic tribes(Przeworsk, Oksywie and Wielbark cultures)
    Attachment 11683
    Attachment 11684
    I think that is burgundian or other east germanic origin. R1a was in Germany and Poland before slavic migrations in this lands
    Attachment 11685
    I think that R1a-Z280 is not only balto-slavic, because in W.Europe it can be found among germanic people and in areas where were not slavic or baltic migrations
    Can you re-post your attachments. I cannot see them.
    A minority of R-Z280 could indeed be germanic. Perhaps I am mistaken but I think that a R-Z280 ancient sample (dated around 1000 BC) was found in central Germany. If you look at the country report for FGC10360 on FTDNA, 4.65 % of the carriers live in Germany, while 2.33 % live in Denmark, Spain and England. However most of the carriers have reported origins from Slavic countries.
    And do not give too much credit to that website. The generated paths are fun, but they are only based on the modern distribution according to yfull.com and assuming that the distribution was the same at the forming age of the subclades.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarrior View Post
    I agree with your statement Adamo. There is a trend to dislocate the Slavic people from the R1a orientation-- why this is I'm not sure. At some point the maps tell you all you need to know. I think political agendas begin to creep into this field and this clouds what was at one point was painfully obvious.

    When in doubt, check the maps.
    There's nothing that would indicate any political agendas at all. In this case the Balkans could be called germanics as much as slavic if only observing a haplo. The eastern parts of Sweden, where I live, have up to 25-30% R1a. And as far as I know we're germanics. I would in this case suggest that some sort of pseudoscience like pan-slavisism is luring around the corner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordred View Post
    There's nothing that would indicate any political agendas at all. In this case the Balkans could be called germanics as much as slavic if only observing a haplo. The eastern parts of Sweden, where I live, have up to 25-30% R1a. And as far as I know we're germanics. I would in this case suggest that some sort of pseudoscience like pan-slavisism is luring around the corner.
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    R1a is mostly Slavic, in balkans we can see which R1a clades were spread by slavs from 7th century.

    However, there is some different R1a that could be pre Slavic (likely German) and an even smaller amount which could be "turkic" but again likely that ultimately even these were initially spread from russia because most turkic regions are a mix of russians, east asians, persians & arabs

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    Quote Originally Posted by TaktikatEMalet View Post
    R1a is mostly Slavic, in balkans we can see which R1a clades were spread by slavs from 7th century.

    However, there is some different R1a that could be pre Slavic (likely German) and an even smaller amount which could be "turkic" but again likely that ultimately even these were initially spread from russia because most turkic people are a mix of russians, east asians, persians & arabs
    It's not. It's more "Baltic" (not as in Baltic states), and is prevalent in countries and areas around, or close to, the Baltic Sea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordred View Post
    It's not. It's more "Baltic" (not as in Baltic states), and is prevalent in countries and areas around, or close to, the Baltic Sea.

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    It really depends which clades we're speaking about. If you were to say R1a-Z280>Z92 is Baltic you would be correct. R1a-Z280>CTS1211 more specifically connected to Slavs. Z280 in general being Balto-Slavic. Then there is R1a-M458 which may be called more specifically Proto-Slavic. Though recent aDNA for R1a-M458 in Singen Germany(Late Hallstatt) and an upcoming paper in peer review that supposedly found R1a-L1029 in Iron Age Bohemia(La Tene) could support its Pre-Slavic affiliation prior to taking part in the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis. A similar scenario is likely for I-Y3120 which is likely pre-slavic, but no aDNA yet. Z284 is more Scando-Germanic, L664 more North-Western European, Z93 Central Asian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    It really depends which clades we're speaking about. If you were to say R1a-Z280>Z92 is Baltic you would be correct. R1a-Z280>CTS1211 more specifically connected to Slavs. Z280 in general being Balto-Slavic. Then there is R1a-M458 which may be called more specifically Proto-Slavic. Though recent aDNA for R1a-M458 in Singen Germany(Late Hallstatt) and an upcoming paper in peer review that supposedly found R1a-L1029 in Iron Age Bohemia(La Tene) could support its Pre-Slavic affiliation prior to taking part in the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis. A similar scenario is likely for I-Y3120 which is likely pre-slavic, but no aDNA yet. Z284 is more Scando-Germanic, L664 more North-Western European, Z93 Central Asian.
    I'm talking about modern times not 3k years ago. Since then the European population has very much migrated and mixed with each other. I could go on and repeat all the historical events how this happened, but I think it won't be needed. Extremely small samples are theories and not actual facts.

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