New R1a map

[adamo]

Didn't your I2a Ostrogoths pass through and set up a kingdom in Italy? Well if they did which I know they did they didn't genetically impact italians much did they with either I2a or R1a for that matter...maybe many of these army movements and kingdoms didn't necessarily affect much or change the genetic composition of all the places they went? In other words they didn't really successfully bring I2a to the Italians did they. Most DNA test related to your scythians that first enter history in 800 b.c show haplogroup R-M17 results. Often times, ancient historical accounts become disproved with time. The scythians where referred to as a variety of groups stretching from the Black Sea to central Asians Siberia. They where not a specific people but rather a variety of people's referred to at different times in history and in several places none of which was their original homeland. I think Ostrogoths having had I2a is more likely but clearly they did not spread this in all the places they ended up such as Italy, thus placing doubt on this theory in my opinion.

 

[adamo]

Since Ostrogoths seem to be linked with Romanians, coastal Adriatic Illyrians where I2 dinaric is found at its highest frequencies maybe they where Ostrogoths but I don't think I2a had this Slavic-type movement from Russia/Ukraine down to those areas I just stated above,

 

[al-kochol]

I don't think I2a had this Slavic-type movement from Russia/Ukraine down to those areas I just stated above,

Why not? We have over 15 million males in Eastern/Middle Europe carrying the I2a, compared to 7.5 million of the same gene in Balkans! Have you ever heard of people from the warm climate land, adjacent to the warm sea, who decided to migrate to the frozen steppes?

 

[adamo]

Because that's just not where haplogroup I passed lol. It came to the Balkans via Europe thousands of years before contact with R1a men. Some of it later diversified and new younger sub-branches such as I2a2 was born that may have allied with Slavs and followed them around, but originally I just didn't enter Europe the same way or time as R1a they where two different cultures of which certain subgroups eventually met up and fused, but at the origin they have a different.....point of origin! Lol. Now unless haplogroup I crossed the Caucasus stayed on the coast of Black Sea and ended up near Moldova as its origin point but even then this would probably have took place at a different time than R1a movement to the area I just doubt it very much...either way its a different branch of the tree so they must have fusioned very recently during Slavic migrations. Haplogroup I like its brother J would go through Middle East and leave via Anatolia to Europe, just many many thousands of years before a few J2 men would enter Europe, I left for Europe long ago whereas majority of J decided to stay in Middle East and is still there today other than some later (5000 years ago possibly) Neolithic J2 moving to the southern MediterraneanMediterranean..... Totally different branch than R1 going around Central Asia, splitting off from Q and then going through Russian steppes..... The only reason the I men are white is because they moved from Middle East to Europe and have been in freezing Europe for the longest time during the LGM in the Balkans Refugia, after even the men of I1a migrating to northern Scandinavia......the men of R1 are also white because they moved to cold Central Asia and for thousands of years across frigid Russia eventually to Europe but....just not the same branch of humanity. R1a is Slavic and I is balkanian, Nordic (Scandinavian branch) etc.

 

[Diurpaneus]

Why not? It's found in 25% of Romanians which is just under Ukraine....it's also found in Moldova...what would stop it from reaching Ukraine at a one out of five boys frequency?

Adamo,that's a very good point.

Whitout any doubt migrations also occured in the "south-to-north" direction.
I don't know if the carriers brought the HG. I2 with them, but:

-in the 1st century BC we have the expansion of the Getae-Dacians under the rule of Burebista.

-at that time Agrippa mentions:“Dacia, Getico finiuntur ab oriente desertis Sarmatiae, ab occidente flumine Vistula, a septentrione Oceano( the Northern border,the Ocean=Baltic Sea), a meridie flumine Histro. Quae patent in longitudine milia passuum CCLXXX, in latitudine qua cogitum est milia passuum CCCLXXXVI
and i dont't think he was taking pills, but the Romans knew those places because of the "Amber Road".

I am talking about some guys who appeared in the Roman sculptures&Trajan's Column whether with a western Polish-Baltic look, or an eastern Ukrainean-Russian look.

 

[MOESAN]

Do not forget of Visigoths who carried the same I2a as Ostrogoths. I2a did not originate in Balkans but in Scythia. There is still more people with I2a in the former Scythia (Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Poland, Slovakia, Czechia) then in the whole Balkans. About 15 million men in the former Scythian lands compared to about 7.5 million men in the Balkan peninsula.

where did you find ancient Y-DNA telling you Ostrogoths and Ostrogoths were Y-I2a ???

 

[Hauteville]

R1a in southern Italy according to Sarno et al.
Trapani 2,94%
Agrigento 2,22%
Enna 2,5%
Ragusa/Siracusa 8,89%
Catania 5,77%
Cosenza 6,67%
Matera 4%
Lecce 7,5%

 

[Guachelin]

Perhaps the R1a in Burgundy can be attributed to the Alani tribes that settled in that area during the reign of the praetor Aetitius, he also allowed late comer Alani that couldn't find land to relocate to Armorica, modern Normandy.

Aetitius struck a deal with the Alani, he needed people who would pay the Roman tax collector, thus the Alani were allowed to dispossess (violently) the original inhabitants around Orleans, well Orleans is located near Burgundy and these people didn't adhere to political boundaries.

The Bishop of Rouen, or was it Amiens, complained to Aetitius about the violence with which the Alani displaced the inhabitants of Armorica, so he withdrew his permission, but too late.

 

[AxelHagen]

Hey people! My paternal ancestor was from Hesse and my deep clade of R1a -FGC10360
My deep clade is R-FGC10360 and this website(https://phylogeographer.com/) showed me the story of this subclade in Europe. This subclade correlates with celtic and later with germanic tribes(Przeworsk, Oksywie and Wielbark cultures)
View attachment 11683
View attachment 11684
I think that is burgundian or other east germanic origin. R1a was in Germany and Poland before slavic migrations in this lands
View attachment 11685
I think that R1a-Z280 is not only balto-slavic, because in W.Europe it can be found among germanic people and in areas where were not slavic or baltic migrations

 

[Illyri]

Hey people! My paternal ancestor was from Hesse and my deep clade of R1a -FGC10360
My deep clade is R-FGC10360 and this website(https://phylogeographer.com/) showed me the story of this subclade in Europe. This subclade correlates with celtic and later with germanic tribes(Przeworsk, Oksywie and Wielbark cultures)
View attachment 11683
View attachment 11684
I think that is burgundian or other east germanic origin. R1a was in Germany and Poland before slavic migrations in this lands
View attachment 11685
I think that R1a-Z280 is not only balto-slavic, because in W.Europe it can be found among germanic people and in areas where were not slavic or baltic migrations

Can you re-post your attachments. I cannot see them.
A minority of R-Z280 could indeed be germanic. Perhaps I am mistaken but I think that a R-Z280 ancient sample (dated around 1000 BC) was found in central Germany. If you look at the country report for FGC10360 on FTDNA, 4.65 % of the carriers live in Germany, while 2.33 % live in Denmark, Spain and England. However most of the carriers have reported origins from Slavic countries.
And do not give too much credit to that website. The generated paths are fun, but they are only based on the modern distribution according to yfull.com and assuming that the distribution was the same at the forming age of the subclades.

 

[Mordred]

I agree with your statement Adamo. There is a trend to dislocate the Slavic people from the R1a orientation-- why this is I'm not sure. At some point the maps tell you all you need to know. I think political agendas begin to creep into this field and this clouds what was at one point was painfully obvious.

When in doubt, check the maps.

There's nothing that would indicate any political agendas at all. In this case the Balkans could be called germanics as much as slavic if only observing a haplo. The eastern parts of Sweden, where I live, have up to 25-30% R1a. And as far as I know we're germanics. I would in this case suggest that some sort of pseudoscience like pan-slavisism is luring around the corner.

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[TaktikatEMalet]

There's nothing that would indicate any political agendas at all. In this case the Balkans could be called germanics as much as slavic if only observing a haplo. The eastern parts of Sweden, where I live, have up to 25-30% R1a. And as far as I know we're germanics. I would in this case suggest that some sort of pseudoscience like pan-slavisism is luring around the corner.
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R1a is mostly Slavic, in balkans we can see which R1a clades were spread by slavs from 7th century.

However, there is some different R1a that could be pre Slavic (likely German) and an even smaller amount which could be "turkic" but again likely that ultimately even these were initially spread from russia because most turkic regions are a mix of russians, east asians, persians & arabs

 

[Mordred]

R1a is mostly Slavic, in balkans we can see which R1a clades were spread by slavs from 7th century.

However, there is some different R1a that could be pre Slavic (likely German) and an even smaller amount which could be "turkic" but again likely that ultimately even these were initially spread from russia because most turkic people are a mix of russians, east asians, persians & arabs

It's not. It's more "Baltic" (not as in Baltic states), and is prevalent in countries and areas around, or close to, the Baltic Sea.

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[Dibran]

It's not. It's more "Baltic" (not as in Baltic states), and is prevalent in countries and areas around, or close to, the Baltic Sea.

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It really depends which clades we're speaking about. If you were to say R1a-Z280>Z92 is Baltic you would be correct. R1a-Z280>CTS1211 more specifically connected to Slavs. Z280 in general being Balto-Slavic. Then there is R1a-M458 which may be called more specifically Proto-Slavic. Though recent aDNA for R1a-M458 in Singen Germany(Late Hallstatt) and an upcoming paper in peer review that supposedly found R1a-L1029 in Iron Age Bohemia(La Tene) could support its Pre-Slavic affiliation prior to taking part in the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis. A similar scenario is likely for I-Y3120 which is likely pre-slavic, but no aDNA yet. Z284 is more Scando-Germanic, L664 more North-Western European, Z93 Central Asian.

 

[Mordred]

It really depends which clades we're speaking about. If you were to say R1a-Z280>Z92 is Baltic you would be correct. R1a-Z280>CTS1211 more specifically connected to Slavs. Z280 in general being Balto-Slavic. Then there is R1a-M458 which may be called more specifically Proto-Slavic. Though recent aDNA for R1a-M458 in Singen Germany(Late Hallstatt) and an upcoming paper in peer review that supposedly found R1a-L1029 in Iron Age Bohemia(La Tene) could support its Pre-Slavic affiliation prior to taking part in the Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis. A similar scenario is likely for I-Y3120 which is likely pre-slavic, but no aDNA yet. Z284 is more Scando-Germanic, L664 more North-Western European, Z93 Central Asian.

I'm talking about modern times not 3k years ago. Since then the European population has very much migrated and mixed with each other. I could go on and repeat all the historical events how this happened, but I think it won't be needed. Extremely small samples are theories and not actual facts.

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[Dibran]

I'm talking about modern times not 3k years ago. Since then the European population has very much migrated and mixed with each other. I could go on and repeat all the historical events how this happened, but I think it won't be needed. Extremely small samples are theories and not actual facts.

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Is that so. And what actual "facts" do you have to make such a broad generalization as "R1a is Baltic" in a modern sense?

A sample is not a theory, a sample is aDNA. So far you can say Z280 is Balto-Slavic and Z92 is Baltic. Not sure how that's a theory. Plenty of Z280 littered throughout the Baltics in aDNA exactly where it is most prevelant today. The same is not true for other R1a branches. If your broad generalization of lineages being Baltic was even true, we should see Baltic specific clades with diversity predating the medieval in other R1a lines. This is simply not the case. M458 for example is lacking in Balts and they have little to no diversity in these lines going back no further than 400CE. It is mostly common in Slavs(more specifically West Slavs and Central Europeans).

Z284 ancient and modern is mostly associated with Scandinavians. Your statement holds no relevance unless you go far back to Corded Ware Culture that swept through the Baltic. Even less relevant when taking into account modern distribution of R1a clades.

Additionally, Z93 is Central Asian and oldest samples were found in Eastern Europe. There is also a wealth of R1a-M417 between Germany, Slovakia and the steppe.

 

[Mordred]

Is that so. And what actual "facts" do you have to make such a broad generalization as "R1a is Baltic"?

A sample is not a theory, a sample is aDNA. So far you can say Z280 is Balto-Slavic and Z92 is Baltic. Not sure how thats a theory. Plenty of Z280 littered throughout the Baltics. The same is not true for other R1a branches.

Cool, I'm not stubborn, show me the plenty of number of samples and I will check it out.

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[Dibran]

Cool, I'm not stubborn, show me the plenty of number of samples and I will check it out.

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I don't have to show you anything. The burden of proof is on you for making such a broad generalization/statement and treating it as a fact. Please show and explain how all R1a branches (in moderns no less) are originated, or spread from the Baltic?

You may have a case for Z280 and more specifically its subclade Z92. However, I want to see your explanation for M458/Z284/L664/Z93 and how its from/spread out of the Baltics. You will have a harder time making your case if you're only referring to modern samples and not"3000 years ago" as you said.

 

[Mordred]

I don't have to show you anything. The burden of proof is on you for making such a broad generalization/statement and treating it as a fact. Please show and explain how all R1a branches (in moderns no less) are originated, or spread from the Baltic?

You may have a case for Z280 and more specifically its subclade Z92. However, I want to see your explanation for M458/Z284/L664/Z93 and how its from/spread out of the Baltics. You will have a harder time making your case if you're only referring to modern samples and not"3000 years ago" as you said.

I was expecting such an answer. When it comes to what I wrote all the needed info is here on Eupedia so you don't have to be a Google anthropologist. I have more confidence to the academics and very well informed laymen on this forum than John Doe.

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[Dibran]

I was expecting such an answer. When it comes to what I wrote all the needed info is here on Eupedia so you don't have to be a Google anthropologist. I have more confidence to the academics and very well informed laymen on this forum than John Doe.

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Of course. As I expected you wouldn't explain your claims with any facts/evidence.

You reference Eupedia as having all the needed info to make your point, which doesn't even make such a claim that you proposed regarding R1a. If you just took 2 seconds to go to the R1a section page here on Eupedia(https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml), you would see that no where is it stated all R1a in moderns(or even ancients) is the results of spread from the Baltics.

Additionally, this is a genetics forum, not some forum run by actual scientists and academic participants in studies. There is also a number of recent aDNA studies that have yet to be added to/updated on this sites Haplogroups and their respective pages.

I can tell by your very responses that you don't keep up with the topic. If you're going to act like a wise guy, at least know what you're talking about and back it up, " John Doe".