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Thread: New R1a map

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    Arrow New R1a map

    I have worked on a new map of haplogroup R1a for Europe only, so as to facilitate the comparison with the other maps on Eupedia. I have used a finer scale than before, with zones for 5-10% and 10-20%. All the data for every region has been re-analysed carefully. The map is therefore much more accurate than the old one.

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    I always like to try and work out the story told by these maps. The overall picture seems to follow the migration narrative, showing a tide flowing west out of the Ukrainian steppes and lapping up against the Rhine. One wonders: why stop there? Who occupied the land west of the Rhine in enough strength to bar further progress?

    As always, I find the isolated areas of concentration to be the most interesting.

    1) What caused the R1A island in the south of France? Visigoths maybe, but surely their presence was too light and transient to account for 5% of the male lineages in that area?

    2)The Middle East concentration of R1A seems to more or less overlap Kurdistan which suggests a proto-Slavic inmigration which has been discussed in other threads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by haithabu View Post
    I always like to try and work out the story told by these maps. The overall picture seems to follow the migration narrative, showing a tide flowing west out of the Ukrainian steppes and lapping up against the Rhine.
    Diversity maps would be more telling than frequency maps... frequency maps have led researchers on the wrong path before regarding the history of haplogroup distribution. Like all those old articles that asserted that R1b originated in Iberia. So I'm not sure that a strict Ukrainian-refuge theory of R1a1a is the best hypothesis, although I'd like to see more diversity studies. I seem to recall how yes no saying here that R1a1a diversity spikes unusually in the Balkans and South Siberia, with the rest of R1a1a being fairly young (I'm having trouble finding his source, though, maybe he'll pop in here). I'm not sure what that tells us.

    Quote Originally Posted by haithabu View Post
    One wonders: why stop there? Who occupied the land west of the Rhine in enough strength to bar further progress?
    If we assume a Corded Ware spread (which I think is reasonable) then presumably the western population would have been largely I2 people (plus a nice admixture with other haplogroups like G2, the wildcard being R1b) who co-opted metalworking and became the Beaker people. That's the apparent narrative to me... but I bet the truth is much more complicated, and we need to keep the possibility of a discontinuity between culture and haplogroups in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by haithabu View Post
    1) What caused the R1A island in the south of France? Visigoths maybe, but surely their presence was too light and transient to account for 5% of the male lineages in that area?
    More likely a stray founder somewhere. The diversity would tell us, I bet it's low.

    Quote Originally Posted by haithabu View Post
    2)The Middle East concentration of R1A seems to more or less overlap Kurdistan which suggests a proto-Slavic inmigration which has been discussed in other threads.
    Another possibility is continuity between Kurds and Persians, as Persians have similar levels of R1a. That's possibly more expected, as Kurds speak an Iranian language. I know that that doesn't explain the apparent I2 in Kurds, but the presence of I2 in Kurds has also been challenged here, seeing that studies that have found I2 in them have typically done so with STR predictions (unreliable). Kurds definitely need more studying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    More likely a stray founder somewhere. The diversity would tell us, I bet it's low.
    it is population displaced from area of influence of R1a - Burgundians...

    200 AD

    http://www.euratlas.net/history/euro...ntity_706.html
    443-476 AD

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundians

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    it is population displaced from middle north Europe - Burgundians...
    That makes some sense, especially considering that Burgundians were East Germanic (more R1a). I wonder if these frequencies could help us estimate the total genetic impact of Burgundians on Burgundy. Say... Burgundians were ~35% R1a (just a guess based on modern patterns). ~75% of Burgundy R1a is from Burgundians (another guess based on regional R1a patterns). Then, 0.05*(1/0.35)*0.75=0.11, or 11%. That seems within range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by haithabu View Post
    2)The Middle East concentration of R1A seems to more or less overlap Kurdistan which suggests a proto-Slavic inmigration which has been discussed in other threads.
    Maybe proto-Slavic, proto-Germanic and proto-Iranic tribes were all closely related to each other and were all descendants of their archaic proto-Indo European ancestors. All these folks have I and R1a in them.

    And maybe proto-Celtic tribes only were their distant cousins and are not Indo-European at all but related to folks in the ancient Caucasus…

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Maybe proto-Slavic, proto-Germanic and proto-Iranic tribes were all closely related to each other and were all descendants of their archaic proto-Indo European ancestors.
    I find this likely, although Germanic in particular seems to have an additional R1b component, and I1, which is quite distinct from I2. There is a 15000 year gap between the TMRCA of I1 and the TMRCA of I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    All these folks have I and R1a in them.
    Not Persians, they don't have significant I. At the very least, they don't have I that is as old in their population as their R1a. Aren't they typical descendants of proto-Iranic tribes? I think we can count Haplogroup I out as being part of the original Indo-Europeans. The patterns of it don't match. Look up Nordtvedt's Warped Founders Tree and migration map for confirmation of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    And maybe proto-Celtic tribes only were their distant cousins and are not Indo-European at all but related to folks in the ancient Caucasus…
    I think that this is probably correct, as well, unless the original Indo-Europeans were admixed with both and then bottlenecked two different directions. I feel that your explanation is more likely, though, as we would not expect such bottlenecks to occur so near such a drastic expansion. Two other possibilities remain which I think are even less likely: that R1b peoples were the first Indo-Europeans, and that neither R1a nor R1b were significant parts of the initial Indo-European admixture.

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    - Maybe the modern Germanic nations are a mixture of the ancient proto-Celts (R1b) and proto-Germanic (R1a & I) tribes.
    Are you sure there is a gap of 15,000 year between I2 and I1? I2 is older than I1. I1 is only a couple of thousands years old. What were I1 folks before they mutated (evolved) to I1?

    - West Persians, especially around Teheran have very much I. Iran is one of the most mixed countries in the region. Maybe West Persians were like Kurds before they mixed with Turkic and East Iranic tribes. Iran is not a homogeneous at all.

    - I don't know if it's true but Armenians have very much R1b. Armenians are descendants of Urartu. Urartu folks were not Indo-European. Basque people are R1b and definitely not Indo-European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    - Maybe the modern Germanic nations are a mixture of the ancient proto-Celts (R1b) and proto-Germanic (R1a & I) tribes.
    I think you're right about the modern Germanic peoples, at least if we're talking about West Germanic peoples, who probably have a significant amount of ancestors who spoke Celtic of some sort. I'm not convinced that that's the case with North Germanic peoples, though, and they have R1b, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Are you sure there is a gap of 15,000 year between I2 and I1? I2 is older than I1. I1 is only a couple of thousands years old. What were I1 folks before they mutated (evolved) to I1?
    It's probably more like 17 or 18 thousand, actually, if we're talking the gap between the I1 and I TMRCA, now that I look at Nordtvedt's tree. I1 people were probably hunter-gatherers for a long time, remaining a small population or bottlenecking severely, and not joining an expansion until late. Contrast that with I2a1a peoples, who apparently merged with expanding G2a farmers in the Neolithic, and consequently have the oldest TMRCA of the major Haplogroup I branches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    - I don't know if it's true but Armenians have very much R1b. Armenians are descendants of Urartu. Urartu folks were not Indo-European. Basque people are R1b and definitely not Indo-European.
    I agree with this. Although there are also R1a-heavy populations that are non-Indo-European, so we should be careful. The presence of a different ethnicity with the same haplogroup does not preclude the ethnicity in question from having originated from a population with predominantly that haplogroup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by haithabu View Post
    1) What caused the R1A island in the south of France? Visigoths maybe, but surely their presence was too light and transient to account for 5% of the male lineages in that area?
    R1a in and around Auvergne is certainly a remnant from the early Bronze Age. Auvergne, a remote region in the Massif Central mountains, also has considerably more Middle Eastern haplogroups than the rest of France (notably record-high 9% of G2a, 4.5% of T and 3.5% of J1, but also 12.5% of E1b1b and 8% of J2). I think this is because the Bronze-Age expansion to Central/Western Europe started with the Corded-Ware culture, which corresponds to a thrust of R1a from Belarus/Russia. R1b people came a bit later from further south in Russia and Ukraine, and replaced most of the earlier inhabitants. Some of the indigenous peoples sought refuge into the mountains. I think that is also why the Pasiegos of Cantabria have this unusual mix of high R1a, G2a, J1, T and E1b1b.


    Quote Originally Posted by haithabu View Post
    2)The Middle East concentration of R1A seems to more or less overlap Kurdistan which suggests a proto-Slavic inmigration which has been discussed in other threads.
    It's not Proto-Slavic. Kurdish people are an Iranian tribe, and Iranian peoples all have high R1a, as they belong to the same eastern branch (Satem) of the Indo-Europeans as the Balts, Slavs and Indians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    That makes some sense, especially considering that Burgundians were East Germanic (more R1a). I wonder if these frequencies could help us estimate the total genetic impact of Burgundians on Burgundy. Say... Burgundians were ~35% R1a (just a guess based on modern patterns). ~75% of Burgundy R1a is from Burgundians (another guess based on regional R1a patterns). Then, 0.05*(1/0.35)*0.75=0.11, or 11%. That seems within range.
    Except that the R1a hotspot is in Auvergne, not even adjacent to Burgundy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I think you're right about the modern Germanic peoples, at least if we're talking about West Germanic peoples, who probably have a significant amount of ancestors who spoke Celtic of some sort. I'm not convinced that that's the case with North Germanic peoples, though, and they have R1b, as well.



    It's probably more like 17 or 18 thousand, actually, if we're talking the gap between the I1 and I TMRCA, now that I look at Nordtvedt's tree. I1 people were probably hunter-gatherers for a long time, remaining a small population or bottlenecking severely, and not joining an expansion until late. Contrast that with I2a1a peoples, who apparently merged with expanding G2a farmers in the Neolithic, and consequently have the oldest TMRCA of the major Haplogroup I branches.



    I agree with this. Although there are also R1a-heavy populations that are non-Indo-European, so we should be careful. The presence of a different ethnicity with the same haplogroup does not preclude the ethnicity in question from having originated from a population with predominantly that haplogroup.
    Proto-Germanic tribes were the most north-western group of the ancient Indo-Europeans. Maybe they separated from their other Indo-European relatives when they mixed with the native north-western Europeans. proto-Iranic tribes mixed with the Mesopotamians and Hurrian tribes and proto-Slavic tribes mixed with the native Euroasiatic, Finno-Ugric and Turkic, tribes.

    Yes, but I'm not talking about only R1a. I think that the proto-Indo Europeans had a very high amount of haplogroup I and some 'Caucasian' haplogroups around the Caucasus mountains in them.

    R1a alone is not Indo-European ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's not Proto-Slavic. Kurdish people are an Iranian tribe, and Iranian peoples all have high R1a, as they belong to the same eastern branch (Satem) of the Indo-Europeans as the Balts, Slavs and Indians.
    Is Kurdish R1a closer to Central Asian R1a or East European R1a?

    Or it's a distinguish West Asian one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    R1a in and around Auvergne is certainly a remnant from the early Bronze Age. Auvergne, a remote region in the Massif Central mountains, also has considerably more Middle Eastern haplogroups than the rest of France (notably record-high 9% of G2a, 4.5% of T and 3.5% of J1, but also 12.5% of E1b1b and 8% of J2). I think this is because the Bronze-Age expansion to Central/Western Europe started with the Corded-Ware culture, which corresponds to a thrust of R1a from Belarus/Russia. R1b people came a bit later from further south in Russia and Ukraine, and replaced most of the earlier inhabitants. Some of the indigenous peoples sought refuge into the mountains. I think that is also why the Pasiegos of Cantabria have this unusual mix of high R1a, G2a, J1, T and E1b1b.
    If that is the case one would expect these relative proportions to be a snapshot of the population mixture prior to the R1B incursions. But.......only 2.5% I2??

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    The thing with the Germans is that they are more R1b than R1a. Their main or biggest haplogorup is R1b, so maybe these modern Germans were just an ancient Celtic tribe (R1b) from South Europe that mixed with Slavs, Huns and native northern I1 Europeans in north.

    Maybe being 'Germanic' is just an invention and Germans are actually the most mixed Celts that bred with other folks.

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    The biggest enigma in Europe are Austrians. They're the only west European nation whose main (biggest) haplogroup is R1a = 26%! Without I1 (only 12%) their DNA would look more West Asian. They have as much I1 as J2, 9% E, 8% G2a and ONLY 23% R1b (even west Asian Armenians have more R1b = 28%).

    Maybe Austrians are last remnants of the proto-Indo Europeans in Europe!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Except that the R1a hotspot is in Auvergne, not even adjacent to Burgundy...

    You are talking about less than 20 km , these maps are not entirely accurate., so, HOW YES AND NO was correct in his statement ,in my opinion.

    The other only explanation and its less accurate is the visigoth period, which is basically on the extreme border of Gallic lands of where they settled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    You are talking about less than 20 km , these maps are not entirely accurate., so, HOW YES AND NO was correct in his statement ,in my opinion.

    The other only explanation and its less accurate is the visigoth period, which is basically on the extreme border of Gallic lands of where they settled.
    All France was conquered by Germanic tribes: Franks, Burgunds, Visigoths, Normans... These people had only a minimal genetic impact on the overall population. For example there are only traces of I1 and R1a in what used to be the Visigothic kingdom in south-west France. How could Burgundy have over 5% of R1a when even Baden-Württemberg and Alsace have less than 5% ? Then, let's not confuse the modern region of Burgundy, centered on the medieval Duchy of Burgundy, with the ancient Kingdom of Burgundy, where the actual Burgunds settled, and which encompassed all the land from modern Burgundy all the way down to Provence along the Rhone, as well as the French Alps and Switzerland. If there is any Germanic haplogroup that is present in surprisingly high density in that region, it is R1b-S21 (R1b-U106), not R1a.

    The Franks had the biggest impact over Gaul, be it genetic, cultural, linguistic or political; but that is because their homeland had been adjacent to Gaul (around modern Belgium) for several centuries, and they just annexed Gaul to their existing kingdom, while all the other tribes moved in from farther away, in smaller numbers. Yet even the Franks' genetic legacy is barely visible beyond the top north of France. The Parisian region is hardly Germanic. Even Alsace, where a Germanic language is traditionally spoken, barely has 6% of I1 and 5% of R1a (about half of Macedonia, and less I1 than the Celtic strongholds of Wales and Ireland).

    Then it is not because East Germany has a lot of R1a today that East Germanic tribes necessarily did too. What many people fail to understand is that when a mass migration happens from one place to another, like the Völkerwanderung of the late Antiquity and early Middle Ages, people and their genes leave a region and new people move in to fill the vacuum. I believe that a good part of the R1a in East Germany (and of course Poland) today arrived with the Slavs after Germanic tribes left. Germanic people obviously all have/had R1a, but I doubt that ancient tribes like the Goths or Burgunds had over 30% of R1a (10-15% seems more reasonable).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    The biggest enigma in Europe are Austrians. They're the only west European nation whose main (biggest) haplogroup is R1a = 26%! Without I1 (only 12%) their DNA would look more West Asian. They have as much I1 as J2, 9% E, 8% G2a and ONLY 23% R1b (even west Asian Armenians have more R1b = 28%).

    Maybe Austrians are last remnants of the proto-Indo Europeans in Europe!?
    The Austrians fit well within the West Slavic region, encompassing what used to be the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Austrians are closer to the Slovenes, Czechs, Slovaks and Hungarians than to anybody else. Genetically the Austrians are more West Slavic than Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by haithabu View Post
    If that is the case one would expect these relative proportions to be a snapshot of the population mixture prior to the R1B incursions. But.......only 2.5% I2??
    I suppose that the region was more propitious to Neolithic farmers (or stockbreeders, especially goats and sheep) than to hunter-gatherers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    All France was conquered by Germanic tribes: Franks, Burgunds, Visigoths, Normans... These people had only a minimal genetic impact on the overall population. For example there are only traces of I1 and R1a in what used to be the Visigothic kingdom in south-west France. How could Burgundy have over 5% of R1a when even Baden-Württemberg and Alsace have less than 5% ? Then, let's not confuse the modern region of Burgundy, centered on the medieval Duchy of Burgundy, with the ancient Kingdom of Burgundy, where the actual Burgunds settled, and which encompassed all the land from modern Burgundy all the way down to Provence along the Rhone, as well as the French Alps and Switzerland. If there is any Germanic haplogroup that is present in surprisingly high density in that region, it is R1b-S21 (R1b-U106), not R1a.

    The Franks had the biggest impact over Gaul, be it genetic, cultural, linguistic or political; but that is because their homeland had been adjacent to Gaul (around modern Belgium) for several centuries, and they just annexed Gaul to their existing kingdom, while all the other tribes moved in from farther away, in smaller numbers. Yet even the Franks' genetic legacy is barely visible beyond the top north of France. The Parisian region is hardly Germanic. Even Alsace, where a Germanic language is traditionally spoken, barely has 6% of I1 and 5% of R1a (about half of Macedonia, and less I1 than the Celtic strongholds of Wales and Ireland).

    Then it is not because East Germany has a lot of R1a today that East Germanic tribes necessarily did too. What many people fail to understand is that when a mass migration happens from one place to another, like the Völkerwanderung of the late Antiquity and early Middle Ages, people and their genes leave a region and new people move in to fill the vacuum. I believe that a good part of the R1a in East Germany (and of course Poland) today arrived with the Slavs after Germanic tribes left. Germanic people obviously all have/had R1a, but I doubt that ancient tribes like the Goths or Burgunds had over 30% of R1a (10-15% seems more reasonable).
    First of all , the burgundians where in that area for over 1000 years, their capital was dijon IIRC, next to auvergne, they moved into the netherlands/brabant area around the 15th century. So they had ample time to sow their seeds.

    In regards to R1a , what you are bascially saying is that the east germanic tribes had no contact with slavs at all. ( what about sarmatians ? ) If this is what you are saying, then I could agree with you. Then the case is what haplogroup where East germanic tribes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Austrians fit well within the West Slavic region, encompassing what used to be the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Austrians are closer to the Slovenes, Czechs, Slovaks and Hungarians than to anybody else. Genetically the Austrians are more West Slavic than Germanic.
    Not the Tyrolese ( western austrians ) unless you know something else

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    First of all , the burgundians where in that area for over 1000 years, their capital was dijon IIRC, next to auvergne, they moved into the netherlands/brabant area around the 15th century. So they had ample time to sow their seeds.
    Your approach of history is too political. You just look at the borders from a textbook perspective. The Low Countries did become Burgundian in the 15th century, but that was through marriage and it did not really involve a movement of people from Burgundy to the Low Countries (except a few administrators). Auvergne was never part of Burgundy, be it the early medieval kingdom or the late medieval duchy.

    In regards to R1a , what you are bascially saying is that the east germanic tribes had no contact with slavs at all. ( what about sarmatians ? ) If this is what you are saying, then I could agree with you. Then the case is what haplogroup where East germanic tribes.
    Having contacts isn't the same thing has welcoming foreigners into your tribe and give them your daughters as wives to spread their own lineages. I am not aware of any fusion between ancient Germanic tribes and Slavic or Iranian tribes, except for the Goths who settled north of the Black Sea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Not the Tyrolese ( western austrians ) unless you know something else
    Yeah, ok, but that's a very small part of Austria, more Swiss than truly Austrian.

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    what about this
    http://groh.ru/gro/history/legacy.html
    Paleolithic culture, the Aurignacian

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