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Thread: New J1 map

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    Arrow New J1 map

    I couldn't make maps for T and Q without also making one for J1. As with other minority haplogroups the map was a bit tricky to design due to the very small range between colours at low frequency. Another problem was that J1 is most common in the Middle East and North Africa, but that many of these countries do not have detailed studies. I encountered some very conflicting studies regarding eastern Turkey, Kurdistan and Syria.

    One interesting "discovery" is the relatively high frequency of J1 in France, with a peak around 4% in the Auvergne and Midi-Pyrénées regions. Unfortunately there isn't enough data for the Loire Valley, Burgundy, Champagne, Gascony or the French Alps, but I filled the gaps by looking at adjacent regions.

    I am not sure whether the J1 frequencies I found for North Germany, Poland and Ukraine include Jewish people or not.

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    Thank you very much. I see a little concentration of J1 around Antwerpen. Antwerpen is the capital of European-Jewish diamond merchants.

    I think that the Nazis changed the distribution of J1 in northern Europe. 3 million Polish Jews got killed by the Nazis. That was for about 10% of total Polish population in 1940.

    Can you also generate a map for hg R1b?

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    Another very excellent map, Maciamo! Thanks for sharing this!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Thank you very much. I see a little concentration of J1 around Antwerpen. Antwerpen is the capital of European-Jewish diamond merchants.
    It's not around Antwerp, but around Brussels, Ghent and Mechelen, based on the Brabant DNA Project. Antwerp had 0% J1. Tested members are all Flemish, not Jewish AFAIK. I hope I colourised the map properly. The green doesn't reach the seaside.

    Can you also generate a map for hg R1b?
    But I made more than a year ago. Did you not see the most important page about haplogroups on this site ? => Origins & descriptions of European haplogroups

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    J - hmm associated with the great seafaring trading peoples. Trade are = merchant area

    Antwerp destroyed by the spanish in the 80 years war with the dutch.......all the merchant jews went to Amsterdam

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    J - hmm associated with the great seafaring trading peoples. Trade are = merchant area
    That would be J2, not J1. J1 is clearly of Arabic and Jewish/Palestinian origin. It is found in places colonised by the Arabs, and among Jewish communities.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Antwerp destroyed by the spanish in the 80 years war with the dutch.......all the merchant jews went to Amsterdam
    You have such a fragmentary grasp of history ! There are approximately 15,000 Jews in Antwerp nowadays, amounting to some 3% of the city's population. There presence is due to the fact that Antwerp has been the world capital of diamonds since the late 19th century (although many Jews fled during WWII only to return afterwards). However, most of them are not Belgian nationals, but part of the worldwide (and ambulant) Jewish community, which is why they were not taken into account here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Antwerp destroyed by the spanish in the 80 years war with the dutch.......all the merchant jews went to Amsterdam
    But after the Jewish persecution during the WW2 many Jews in Amstedam got killed or deported to the concentration camps. The diamond business (industry) in Amsterdam collapsed after that and Antwerpen regained again their main position.

    For the diamonds you must be in Antwerpen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    15,000 Jews in Antwerp nowadays, amounting to some 3% of the city's population. There presence is due to the fact that Antwerp has been the world capital of diamonds since the late 19th century (although many Jews fled during WWII only to return afterwards). However, most of them are not Belgian nationals, but part of the worldwide (and ambulant) Jewish community, which is why they were not taken into account here.
    In Antwerpen there are also many 'Jewish' immigrants from the formal Soviet Republics like Georgia in diamond business. There're nowadays Belgian nationals though.

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    What surprises me most about this distribution is the high concentrations of J1 in Greece and Italy, as well as in southern France!

    Regarding Iberian J1, I wonder to what degree this is a result of the Moorish period, or if this is also the effect of earlier Phoenician settlements, or possibly even earlier, Neolithic influences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That would be J2, not J1. J1 is clearly of Arabic and Jewish/Palestinian origin. It is found in places colonised by the Arabs, and among Jewish communities.



    You have such a fragmentary grasp of history ! There are approximately 15,000 Jews in Antwerp nowadays, amounting to some 3% of the city's population. There presence is due to the fact that Antwerp has been the world capital of diamonds since the late 19th century (although many Jews fled during WWII only to return afterwards). However, most of them are not Belgian nationals, but part of the worldwide (and ambulant) Jewish community, which is why they were not taken into account here.
    not fragmentary, just not bothering with detail, but if you wish, after the 15th century spanish inquistion ( moriscos) , the jews went to antwerp or ferrara ( italy ), then Venice to corfu to Levant. The antwerp ones set up trade.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Antwerp
    The % of jews then in antwerp was greater than the 20th century.

    nationality does not change your dna

    Antwerp being the Portuguese home of trade after their Tago trade in portugal was minimalise enabled the jews ( 12% of the population ) , with portuguese shipping to supply the north sea states with goods etc etc.

    And yes J1 is as you say

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    distributions of J1 in Europe are not due to Jewish people who are rather dispersed on large areas, but case of historic migrations of larger ethnic groups ....

    in Spain, Sicily and Sardinia it is about Arabic people entering from north Africa...

    in France it is brought by Franks (also known as Fruzi/Frugians in Serbo-Croat, e.g. see origin of name mountain Fruska gora )
    who brought it from Asia minor as Francs in my opinion origin from Phrygians...note that legend of origin of Francs relates them to Troy..

    in fact, hotspot in Belgium also strongly suggests Frankish origin as it is nearby original frankish settlement area...

    200AD




    in northwest Italy it is brought by Etruscans...in fact, we can even see place from which they departured as a hole in J1 spread in Lydia


    in Baltic and northeast Italy it is about Veneti who moved out from Paphlagonia, which is also supported by hole in spread in Paphlagonia ...

    in Serbs it is probably due to world empire of I2a Serians stretching from Europe deep into Asia all the way to China and south as far as into Arabian peninsula...

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    Seems my post was deleted. Anyways, I think the Southern Spain is wrong, at Iberianroots they have only 1.5% for Andalusia

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    distributions of J1 in Europe are not due to Jewish people who are rather dispersed on large areas, but case of historic migrations of larger ethnic groups ....

    in Spain, Sicily and Sardinia it is about Arabic people entering from north Africa...

    in France it is brought by Franks (also known as Fruzi/Frugians in Serbo-Croat, e.g. see origin of name mountain Fruska gora )
    who brought it from Asia minor as Francs in my opinion origin from Phrygians...note that legend of origin of Francs relates them to Troy..

    in fact, hotspot in Belgium also strongly suggests Frankish origin as it is nearby original frankish settlement area...


    in northwest Italy it is brought by Etruscans...in fact, we can even see place from which they departured as a hole in J1 spread in Lydia


    in Baltic and northeast Italy it is about Veneti who moved out from Paphlagonia, which is also supported by hole in spread in Paphlagonia ...

    in Serbs it is probably due to world empire of I2a Serians stretching from Europe deep into Asia all the way to China and south as far as into Arabian peninsula...
    Following the same "logic" that you apply to Jews, it is quite difficult that it could be due to Arabs in either Iberia, Sicily or Sardinia since it's well known that the number of these foreign invaders was pretty small.

    Following your same arbitrary assignations, I can more easily attribute the presence of J1 in Italy to all the slaves and immigrants from the Near East who found their way to Roman Italy, and who were present in larger numbers than any Muslim Arabs during medieval times.

    Following the same "logic" that you want to apply to Iberia, Sicily and Sardinia, J1 among Serbians is due to Ottoman invasions.

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    Phoenicians could have brought some J1 even before the Moores, I know they were J2 and E predominantly but could have had a little J1. it is all throughout the mediterranean and Phoenicians were in the levant. As far as jews there were never mass numbers of them, they were always a drop in the bucket compared to the total population of europe, in my opinion not nearly enough of them to make a dent.

    As for Ottoman gene flow into the balkans, I think most middle eastern genes came from ancient times, Phoenicians, possibly Crete and others. Plus the Byzantine empire had many mercenaries of foreign nations, Roman slave trade etc. Putting all kinds of near eastern people into the region. Ottomans did take many european women off to harems, yes, but those children would have been raised as turks and muslim. When serbs and greeks won their independence they chased all turks to Istanbul, Spain with Queen Isabella had coversos the balkans did not. The muslim communities that weren't chased out have a completely seperate identity and most are not turkish speakers.
    Having said that I think people blow Moorish influence out of proportion, I( think it's a lot less then most people think. Even though defeated Moores had the chance to convert I think most chose to leave the area or died fighting. Punic wars, Phoenicians, Roman slave trade and many other factors contributed to the region before the Moores were there. If you look at autosomal DNA charts there is not much impact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drac View Post
    Following the same "logic" that you apply to Jews, it is quite difficult that it could be due to Arabs in either Iberia, Sicily or Sardinia since it's well known that the number of these foreign invaders was pretty small.

    Following your same arbitrary assignations, I can more easily attribute the presence of J1 in Italy to all the slaves and immigrants from the Near East who found their way to Roman Italy, and who were present in larger numbers than any Muslim Arabs during medieval times.

    Following the same "logic" that you want to apply to Iberia, Sicily and Sardinia, J1 among Serbians is due to Ottoman invasions.
    So..., what would be your hypothesis of genesis of J1 in Iberia? Where did it come from?

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    In my opinion, most of the J1 in Europe is of Neolithic or Chalcolithic origin. The spread of J1 goes hand in hand with haplogroups E1b1b and T. All three haplogroups are common in the southern Levant, where agriculture arose, and would have spread via Anatolia, Greece and Italy, and by the intermediary of the numerous historical peoples from these areas. The Phoenicians, Etruscans, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines and Arabs all contributed to the further dispersal of J1, often reinforcing the frequency in regions already settled by Levantine/Anatolian people during the Neolithic. It is ludicrous to think that only one historical tribe (meaning post-Bronze Age, as historical implies that writing existed) is responsible for the presence of J1, E1b1b or T in any part of Europe.

    In Iberia, J1 is obviously a cumulation of Neolithic, Phoenician and Arabic settlements. IMHO, the Neolithic farmers were the main contributors, because the hotspot of J1 in Portugal and Andalusia matches the hotspot of E1b1b, J2 and T, which means that the four of them came together. Considering the proportions, it rules out an Arabic or North African origin, and points rather at a Levantine/Anatolian origin. This hotspot also matches the earliest known Neolithic sites in Iberia.

    Likewise J1 in Central France and Germany is most probably of Neolithic origin, because the Arabs, Phoenicians and other historical Middle Eastern people didn't settle the region. Only the Romans might have contributed to slightly higher levels in France - but they obviously didn't settled North Germany and Poland.

    The J1 hotspot in Bosnia is almost certainly due to the colonisation of the region by Muslims from Turkey.

    The high frequencies of J1 in Greece, Albania and Italy correspond to the high frequencies of J2, G2a, T and E1b1b, which also confirms a Neolithic to Bronze Age Levantine/Anatolian origin (probably not all in one time, but in several waves, some bringing more of one haplogroup than others depending of the exact place of origin; for example, the Etruscans seem to have had more J1, J2 and G2a, but less E1b1b and T, while the Phoenicians appear to have had particularly lots of J1, T and Q by Near-Eastern standards).

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    J1 in south Spain, Sicily and Sardinia is of course not all of Arabic origin... undoubtedly it was also brought by Phoenicians and Byzantium...

    As for Serbs and hotspots in Bosnia,while some of Bosnia muslim families do origin from Turkey, J1 in Serbs and muslims of Bosnia cannot be solely prescribed to Ottomans......e.g. because than it would be accompanied with much larger G component as it is the case in Turkey... I rather think that this somewhat elevated J1 origins from Illyrians....

    Hotspots in mountains and woods of Bosnia is logical as those are areas where previous inhabitants would move to get cover from invading armies...

    note that spread of J1, E-V13 and J2 is rather flat in Serbs ( in roughly same levels in Bosnia, Serbia and Vojvodina) and not local (as e.g. I2a in Croats is virtually absent in northwest region except in capital)....flat spread indicates earlier admixture...big local variations indicate recent admixtures........reason is that once ethnic group moves to other location what was characterized with local variations is meshed into single mass moving to another location....

    small and flat spread of J1 (and E-V13 and J2) in Serbs I relate to Serbs originating from Scordisci/Serdi/Sherdana/Serians/Sart...

    in Balkan, according to Strabo, Scordisci are known to have lived mixed with Illyrians.... now if Scordisci got haplogroups E-V13, J2 and J1 on Balkan by living mixed with Illyrians that admixture would have local variations if they stayed on those areas.....but Scordisci have been pushed north (and perhaps west) by spread of Roman empire into future core of Slavic lands
    (e.g. Russian primary chronicle speaks of Serbs as one of Danubian Slav tribes that was pushed from area around Danube into north by spread of Vlakhs or romans),
    than with movement local hotspots and variations are lost, and when former Serdi/Scordisci returned to Balkan as Serbs they had carried with them rather flat spreads of those haplogroups.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Likewise J1 in Central France and Germany is most probably of Neolithic origin, because the Arabs, Phoenicians and other historical Middle Eastern people didn't settle the region. Only the Romans might have contributed to slightly higher levels in France - but they obviously didn't settled North Germany and Poland.
    The Phoenician took part in the tin trade. One of the major Tin trade route was the French river of the Loire and the Rhône

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    The J1 in Iberia, which is lower than the map shows, it is about 1-2% in South-Spain, not 2.5-5% like in the map, is mostly of Roman origina, because the ratio J1/J2 is most similar to the ratio of italians, not that of Lebanese (the closest living population to Phoenicians)

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    Sometimes the colors are difficult to distinguish, but Southern Spain looks 2,5-5% and it isn't. Also, probably between the British, or some parts of UK, it's posible to find 0.5-1%, but there aren't enough samples. I know of J1 cases at 23andme who are British.

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    I've reposted my musings of J1 to this thread, just to be on a record when one day the dust settles and history of J1 migration will be more obvious.

    I agree that J1 did most of its moves in Neolithic. When we look at this map below, it shows hot spots on Arabian Peninsula, they are also the diversity centers.



    Looking at the strongest locations, in sub Sahara and Arabian Peninsula, it makes me think that maybe their success came at the end of ice age and early Neolithic when these regions where greener and moist, excellent for pastoralists.
    The diversity and frequency centers, might tell, us that J1 was most successful when connected to the sea. They could have shifted to sea faring peoples in mid Neolithic. First expended through Red Sea, then spread to Mediterranean.
    The biggest density of J1 around Mediterranean match roughly Phoenician colonies. Greek colonies contain less J1. The matches or mismatches are not that precise though, therefor it might mean that main spread of J1 around Mediterranean happened before antiquity.

    I don't think J1 was much agricultural, carrying first farming into Europe. Actually J1 drops sharply when approaching Fertile Crescent from Arabian Peninsula. Surely it is still strong, but it could have dispersed to the North later. J1 is not continuous, and missing in many fertile places in Europe. If we skip 0.5-1 percentile shade then it exists only by the Mediterranean Sea, except France. It is not a very good candidate for early farmers in my opinion.

    I don't have a clue what means the big spot in France, Tuscany and Bosnia. Maybe some later movements of J1 with Caucasian tribes, or brought by Gals from Anatolia?

    Light shade in Central Europe from Germany to Belarus is a mark of huge Jewish community living there for 1000 years, numbered at around 8 million before WWII.

    Summarising, J1 in Asia and Africa is early to mid Neolithic, carried by pastoralists during moist climate of that era.
    J1 in Europe is mid to late Neolithic brought by sea faring people from Africa and Middle East to the other side of Mediterranean. Some spots in European inland could be attributed to Caucasian and Anatolian tribes, but I'm also leaning to Neolithic movement through Gibraltar of pastoralists or agriculturalists.
    Some J1 in Europe is surely Jewish, with obvious and most likely their inclusive, signature in central Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I've reposted my musings of J1 to this thread, just to be on a record when one day the dust settles and history of J1 migration will be more obvious.

    I agree that J1 did most of its moves in Neolithic. When we look at this map below, it shows hot spots on Arabian Peninsula, they are also the diversity centers.



    Looking at the strongest locations, in sub Sahara and Arabian Peninsula, it makes me think that maybe their success came at the end of ice age and early Neolithic when these regions where greener and moist, excellent for pastoralists.
    The diversity and frequency centers, might tell, us that J1 was most successful when connected to the sea. They could have shifted to sea faring peoples in mid Neolithic. First expended through Red Sea, then spread to Mediterranean.
    The biggest density of J1 around Mediterranean match roughly Phoenician colonies. Greek colonies contain less J1. The matches or mismatches are not that precise though, therefor it might mean that main spread of J1 around Mediterranean happened before antiquity.

    I don't think J1 was much agricultural, carrying first farming into Europe. Actually J1 drops sharply when approaching Fertile Crescent from Arabian Peninsula. Surely it is still strong, but it could have dispersed to the North later. J1 is not continuous, and missing in many fertile places in Europe. If we skip 0.5-1 percentile shade then it exists only by the Mediterranean Sea, except France. It is not a very good candidate for early farmers in my opinion.

    I don't have a clue what means the big spot in France, Tuscany and Bosnia. Maybe some later movements of J1 with Caucasian tribes, or brought by Gals from Anatolia?

    Light shade in Central Europe from Germany to Belarus is a mark of huge Jewish community living there for 1000 years, numbered at around 8 million before WWII.

    Summarising, J1 in Asia and Africa is early to mid Neolithic, carried by pastoralists during moist climate of that era.
    J1 in Europe is mid to late Neolithic brought by sea faring people from Africa and Middle East to the other side of Mediterranean. Some spots in European inland could be attributed to Caucasian and Anatolian tribes, but I'm also leaning to Neolithic movement through Gibraltar of pastoralists or agriculturalists.
    Some J1 in Europe is surely Jewish, with obvious and most likely their inclusive, signature in central Europe.
    Lebrok?
    how certain we are that J1 is from South Spots (Arabian penunsula- Africa) or from North Spot, south east Caucas?

    I ask cause from what I read, and is also my personal believe J1 is Caucasian Hg.
    which moved south and the return North as a clear Semitic with the today meaning,

    could J1 be origin from Caucas area and moved south? or the opposite?
    Last edited by Yetos; 04-04-12 at 14:40.
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  23. #23
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    i saw an interesting show on archeology - time team - series called , from constantinople to cornwall.

    they found undisturbed phoenician pottery underground in cornwall England dated 500BC. so either that phoenicians traded there directly or trade was done via a relay system. Pheonicians or carthagians means basically the same people, so it could be cartagian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    i saw an interesting show on archeology - time team - series called , from constantinople to cornwall.

    they found undisturbed phoenician pottery underground in cornwall England dated 500BC. so either that phoenicians traded there directly or trade was done via a relay system. Pheonicians or carthagians means basically the same people, so it could be cartagian.
    Cornwall had a lot of wealth in metals at that time, and it was an easy place to access by sea. I suspect that the locals could have easily afforded to trade with the also wealthy Phoenicians, or at least received their goods via relay, as you say.

    That said, I don't notice any sort of direct genetic impact of the Phoenicians on Cornwall.

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    I think Tyre also came to Britain to trade for "blue" dyes. There is a theory that the biblical book of Ezekiel talks of Tyre and her greatness and the blue and purple dyes she used, obtained from "Elishas" which some think may be an early reference to Britain.

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