Disagree with R1b-S21 being a Germanic haplogroup.It may now be seen to be a part of the genetic backdrop of Germanic 'languages'.It is a haplogroup that does not go above 30% in Scandinavia or Germany.Many areas of these primary Germanic areas are well below 30%.It is quite easy to make a case that this haplogroup spread out of the country / area that is 'now' called the Netherlands.The Netherlands is seen as a country that speaks a Germanic 'language'.It must be remembered that the language / dialects of the Netherlands have been germanised.This Germanisation has come a Norse source including what has become to be known as Saxon 'a confederation' of different tribes (not all Germanic - a mixture of different tribes that have been identified as being Germanic, Celtic, Nordic, Slavic etc.) that spread from the North Eastern base of Denmark in Holstein.Before that even the Netherlands were Frankified / Belgicised - both being associated with Rb1-U152.The Cimbri in far north Denmark ( perhaps the original Teutones who have ties to the Cimbri) have also been to be associated with Rb1-U152.U152 has been said to be associated with the La Tene culture that spread up the Rhine.La Tene definately associated with Celtic culture.The Belgi & other associated predominantly Rb1-U152 (other haplogroups that spread up the Rhine at the same time) were to be Germanised (linguistically - although a German language that can be compared to modern German may not of existed at that time) during the centuries they travelled up through the Rhine regions.Rb1-U152 is seen as an Italo-Celtic haplogroup, due to the predominance of Northern Italian speaking people carrying it.All very confusing.
The Netherlands & Belgium have been said to be part of the Nord-West block.An area that is said to be neither Celtic or Germanic.Rb1-S21 is the most predominant haplogroup found in the Netherlands, especially in Frisian areas.Frisian is now seen as a Germanic ethnic group.It must be remembered that the Saxon elite eventually came to overule them.The old Frisians culture, language may have been very different to the Saxonised Frisian, although retaining elements I would have thought.Frisians resisted Frankish (elites associated with U152) advances.Only in near history have Frisians succumbed to Frankish & later Holy Roman empires which had absorbed much of both what is now known as French & German Territory.Frisians were said to be ethnically connected the Cauci (who occupied an area that is now called East Frisia, in Germany), Angles & Saxons (Holstein area).Angles (probably only a short lived & small tribal grouping in that area who's memory has lived on in naming a large area of Britain) & Saxons absorbed alot of Scandinavian peoples (as well as others) which totally changed their ethnic mix).These areas could also have been predominantly been R21-S21.Holstein especially is not predominantly R21-S21 any longer (perhaps it never had mind?).There is little genetic evidence of a mass influx of associated haplogroups that 'now' live in what these 'original' Anglo-Saxon areas into Britain.
R21-S21 (Rb1-U106) is the most prominent haplo-group England.If you follow my reasoning you could say these people 'originally' were not Germanic people at all.Alot of Rb1-U106 could have spread to what is 'now' known as England could have spread across the channel from the Rhine region as others carried on a journey up the Netherland coastline & beyond into Lower Saxony & parts of Denmark.
Rb1-S21 & Rb1-L21 are both downstream of Rb1-L11 (a haplogroup that is supposedly proto italo-celto-germanic).Rb1-L21 is downstream of Rb1-P312 (Rb1-S116) a branch that also includes haplogroups that a part of Anglo-Saxon & Nordic makeup, as well as the Italo-Celtic (also belgic?, gaulish) Rb1-U152.The brythonic Celtic languages are associated with U152.This includes Welsh & Breton as well Gaulish languages (which includes original Belgic?).Flemish is a Germanic Language though.Flemish & Dutch are related.More than 1/2 of Belgium speaks Flemish, due to mainly Germanised Frankish influence.
It's all very confusing 'genetically' confusing peoples languages who have, possibly, a different genetic, ethnic historical background than they have today.Rb1-
Perhaps the Netherlands & England (Rb1-S21) should from now be identified as a Nord-West Block genetic origin.It has been put forward as a cultural description of the area.There is evidence of a cultural ties with the Celts in the Netherlands, especially near the Belgium border.Belgium has definate Celtic cultural links.Haven't heard much about 'old' Frisians having any Celtic affiliation.We don't now, however as there is little historical evidence.
Rb1-L51 is generally associated with the 'Celtic' advancement into Europe.Hallstatt culture is said to have started as far back as 900 BC.Hallstatt culture is identified as being definately Celtic generally.The Greeks described a Keltoi people well before Christ.Galatia Celtic colony in Turkey was started in 280 BC.The first use of the peoples called Germania (by the Romans) were in a conflict with the Bastanae (lived in an area of Romania/Ukraine) in 220BC.There is a doubt in their ethnicity though.These people could have been Scytho-Sarmartian or even Celtic (Cimmerian perhaps).It is said the Bastanae were absorbed into the Eastern Germanic, Gothic confederation though.Eastern Germanic culture/ gothic etc. languages was based in what is now an area very similar to what Poland is today, not in an area that is Germanic speaking today.Gothic is said to be the first known Germanic Language, however.Another confusing anology.R1a is a very much part of the Germanic genetic mix.R1a is predominantly Slavic / Scythian origin.Without the Celtic influence on Germanic languages wouldn't it be called a Slavic language.There wouldn't be a German language in that case of course.There possibly wouldn't be a distinction.The language would have developed on vastly different lines.
The next mention is the Cimbri, as I mentioned above, they are said to have had Rb1-U152 genetic origin, predominantly.Again a battle against the Romans in 113BC.The first place to be called Germania was in fact an area that corresponds to Denmark.The Romans did not distinguish between language groups when identifying ethnic groups.Julius Caesar identified Germania as East of the Rhine, not distinguishing between between the languages or ethnicity of these tribes.The Germani Sisrhenani were believed to be Gaulish but related to tribes east of the Rhine.The original Germans may have been more Gaulish (Celtic) than Germanic?
