New map of R1b-S28 (U152)

[zanipolo]

In Byzantine empire and in Greek language there is a big difference,

Greeks call France, Gallia and the language Gallika (gaulish)
but the term Franks means Germanic, not Celtic gaulish, it is a a difference that was from Byzantine times,
so when Byzantines and Greeks say Franks and FranKish means a the Franks and not the gauls,
but when they say Gallia they mean the gauloises and the celtic part of France,
Byzantines made a clear difference of the area south and west of modern France, and the Ron's valley
while they named Paris, Bezanzon etc as Frankia,
same differences were also in other areas,
example in Italy Byzantines made clear diefference of cities,
Venice Savoy Firence Genova, Lombardia considering them as different from the rest of Italians
all the rest Italians were Romans but the above where not Romans

This is correct, because the name Italy is a greek name and was only from below tuscany to the toe of italy ( not sicily ).

In italy , they say gallia for french celts and celtae for german celts

 

[Dorianfinder]

you are talking about Q-celtic

try to read about P-celtic and compare it with Homeric

Read about the Insular Celtic languages. What do you want me to look at when comparing the Homeric dialect (Ionian) and P-Celtic? Are there perhaps some words that exchange (k) with (p) in Homeric?

 

[Dorianfinder]

In italy , they say gallia for french celts and celtae for german celts

The Greek word for France is Gallia which is derived from 'the land of the Gauls'.

Who do you consider 'german celts'?

 

[Taranis]

Read about the Insular Celtic languages.

The concept of "Insular Celtic" languages is paraphyletic, primarily because the typically "insular celtic" features in Goidelic and Brythonic arose independently at a later point. The Brythonic languages share common innovations with Gaulish (as well as it's possible to say from the scarce evidence, Noric and Galatian) that are not found in Goidelic or Celtiberian.

 

[zanipolo]

The Greek word for France is Gallia which is derived from 'the land of the Gauls'.

Who do you consider 'german celts'?

In BC times, none of modern france , basically the west german state ares. switzerland was gallic as well as austria and northern italy.



around 500AD, in framce , gallic celts where aquitane, brittany, gascony, provence, langedoc ............bascially the old Occitan language area ( not including brittany in this )


a map would make it clearer

 

[Taranis]

that would imply relation to Celtic people....
while I agree that spread around Balkan to Asia minor might fit to idea of Celtic migrations and hotspot in north Italy might fit idea of Boii, thing is Boii didnot stay to live in north Italy, so their contribution to genetics of the region should be minor, and most important:

Actually, you are completely wrong. If you look at the map, a connection with the Celtic peoples is clear. Also, the Boii (well, their Italian branch) very much stayed in Italy until they were subjugated by the Romans. You are very wrong if you think that the Boii did not stay in Italy. Besides, the Boii were not the only Celtic tribe to migrate into Italy, as Zanipoli correctly pointed out, there were also other tribes such as the Cenomani, Lingones and Senones. There is a reason the Romans refered to northern Italy as "Gallia Cisalpinensis" (ie, "Gaul on this side of the Alps").

U152 is not exclusively Celtic, however, in particular in Italy, and I personally suspect that the Italic and pre-Etruscan peoples were carriers of U152 to a significant degree.

Besides, your scenario completely does not work out. There's absolutely no reason to assume that U152 originated in Anatolia, especially because it's related Haplogroup (L21, U106) are all found in Western Europe.

In BC times, none of modern france , basically the west german state ares. switzerland was gallic as well as austria and northern italy.

Sorry, that is complete nonsense. By the time of Caesar (1st century BC) it's pretty clear that Gaulish tribes were all over Gaul.

around 500AD, in framce , gallic celts where aquitane, brittany, gascony, provence, langedoc ............bascially the old Occitan language area ( not including brittany in this )

a map would make it clearer

By 500 AD, continently Celtic languages (including Gaulish) were virtually extinct except maybe in vestigial rural areas of (sub-roman / early frankish) Gaul.

Where are you making this up from?! :startled:

 

[Dorianfinder]

U152 is not exclusively Celtic, however, in particular in Italy, and I personally suspect that the Italic and pre-Etruscan peoples were carriers of U152 to a significant degree.

Correct! This is clear but unfortunately some people are having difficulty accepting this fact. Significant frequencies of U152 in Greece and Anatolia indicate an ancient connection independent but related to the pre-Veneti and pre-Roman U152.

There's absolutely no reason to assume that U152 originated in Anatolia, especially because it's related Haplogroup (L21, U106) are all found in Western Europe.

Correct, U152 entered the Balkans from central Europe during the Bronze Age.

 

[Taranis]

Correct! This is clear but unfortunately some people are having difficulty accepting this fact.

Well, people tend to seek one-on-one correlations between Haplogroups, which in my opinion is totally unrealistic to expect. People intermingle too much with each other for that assumption to work out in any realistic way. I mean, yes, you can sometimes expect certain ethnolinguistic groups or archaeological cultures as bearers of a certain Haplogroup which then dispersed this Haplogroup in question, but you only very rarely can assume that this culture was the only one which dispersed the Haplogroup.

Significant frequencies of U152 in Greece and Anatolia indicate an ancient connection independent but related to the pre-Veneti and pre-Roman U152.

Honestly, I don't quite follow why you think that Greek/Anatolian U152 should be pre-Roman. The concentrations (~1-5%) are quite what you would expect from the Roman period alone, and also the pattern seems to quite well match.

Correct, U152 entered the Balkans from central Europe during the Bronze Age.

Actually, the relatively high concentrations of U152 in Romania surprise me quite a bit. It wasn't that clear in earlier maps of U152 (probably due to lack of data).

 

[zanipolo]

Sorry, that is complete nonsense. By the time of Caesar (1st century BC) it's pretty clear that Gaulish tribes were all over Gaul.

By 500 AD, continently Celtic languages (including Gaulish) were virtually extinct except maybe in vestigial rural areas of (sub-roman / early frankish) Gaul.

Where are you making this up from?! :startled:

The question was , where were the germanic celts....I replied, none in modern France. .................so we are saying the same thing

 

[zanipolo]

Correct! This is clear but unfortunately some people are having difficulty accepting this fact. Significant frequencies of U152 in Greece and Anatolia indicate an ancient connection independent but related to the pre-Veneti and pre-Roman U152.



Correct, U152 entered the Balkans from central Europe during the Bronze Age.

in my opinion , U152 is a gallic-ligurian marker, which reached modern austrian lands. This marker then travelled down the balkans by celtic migration/invasion in the balkans, which brings us to the question of ...........there is no U106 in the southern Balkans, so we can assume that the "germanic celts" stayed roughly north or in the vicinity of the danube

 

[Taranis]

The question was , where where the germanic celts....I replied, none in modern France. .................so we are saying the same thing

Not quite. The Volcae originally migrated from the area of Germania into Gaul (another branch of the Volcae also migrated into Anatolia). Likewise, the Helveti originally lived in approximately the area of modern-day Württemberg (Ptolemy refers to that approximate area as "Helvetian Desert").

in my opinion , U152 is a gallic-ligurian marker, which reached modern austrian lands. This marker then travelled down the balkans by celtic migration/invasion in the balkans, which brings us to the question of ...........there is no U106 in the southern Balkans, so we can assume that the "germanic celts" stayed roughly north or in the vicinity of the danube

You still seem to assume that Austrian U106 was already there in Antiquity. I find Maciamo's argument pretty convincing that Austrian U106 arrived only with the migration period.

 

[Dorianfinder]

I don't quite follow why you think that Greek/Anatolian U152 should be pre-Roman. The concentrations (~1-5%) are quite what you would expect from the Roman period alone, and also the pattern seems to quite well match.

The Bronze Age brought changes to Greece and Anatolia that influenced primarily regions known to have been settled by the Dorians. The similarities with central European proto-Celts are striking so I won't elaborate unless you insist on more clarity.

These people settled on Crete, the Peloponnese, the West coast of Anatolia and Southern Italy approximately 1200BC. We can deduce from the scattered nature, yet specific locations where U152+ has been discovered in Anatolia and Greece, as well as the slightly higher frequencies of U152+ in the Calabrian Greek population that U152+ is to some degree a Dorian marker.

The diversity and overall variance in Greece and Anatolia makes these findings too specific to ignore and warrant serious consideration in the overall scheme of things.

 

[zanipolo]

Not quite. The Volcae originally migrated from the area of Germania into Gaul (another branch of the Volcae also migrated into Anatolia). Likewise, the Helveti originally lived in approximately the area of modern-day Württemberg (Ptolemy refers to that approximate area as "Helvetian Desert").



You still seem to assume that Austrian U106 was already there in Antiquity. I find Maciamo's argument pretty convincing that Austrian U106 arrived only with the migration period.

volcae where gauls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcae

Strange how you say the Helvetii where Germanic when all their leaders had gallic names, plus they where pushed out of southern germany by germanic tribes

 

[Taranis]

volcae where gauls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcae

Strange how you say the Helvetii where Germanic when all their leaders had gallic names, plus they where pushed out of southern germany by germanic tribes

I did not say that these were Germanic (in the ethnolinguistic sense), but the statement that these tribes originated in Germania still holds true. Both the Helvetii and the Volcae originally lived in Germania.

This is only definition of "Germanic Celts" that I see that makes sense in any appreciable way.

 

[Dorianfinder]

in my opinion , U152 is a gallic-ligurian marker, which reached modern austrian lands. This marker then travelled down the balkans by celtic migration/invasion in the balkans, which brings us to the question of ...........there is no U106 in the southern Balkans, so we can assume that the "germanic celts" stayed roughly north or in the vicinity of the danube

There is R-U106 in the Southern Balkans. Whether R1b-U106 is indeed a 'germanic celtic' marker well I think that since R-P312, R-U106 and R-L11* are closely related phylogenetically and TMRCA-wise, this is a debatable issue. Of course, there is an underlying assumption that R-P312 has a strong correlation with Celtic and that is not a given.

 

[iapetoc]

Read about the Insular Celtic languages. What do you want me to look at when comparing the Homeric dialect (Ionian) and P-Celtic? Are there perhaps some words that exchange (k) with (p) in Homeric?

Nope Gaulish is the western IE branch that uses same sounds, and same endings with Homerick

the most western IE simmilar to Graeco-Aryan is Gaulish, and P-Celtic,
infact they share unique words in IE language and I am not about to develop here,
I don't know if these words enter Gaulish from Greek language, at Illyros times, or via Merselle (Massalia) or they come From a Hettit-minor asian pop that moved west,
But I know it is the most relative after The Graeco-Brygian and Aryan


Q-celtic is the Celtic of North, Irish cornish Scottish etc
P-Celtic is gaulish Italo-celtic and Balcanic Galatians

 

[zanipolo]

I did not say that these were Germanic (in the ethnolinguistic sense), but the statement that these tribes originated in Germania still holds true. Both the Helvetii and the Volcae originally lived in Germania.

This is only definition of "Germanic Celts" that I see that makes sense in any appreciable way.

I do not know the ancient borders of gallic-celts and germanic-celts, but there was a difference. The only thing I can say on the germanic border was the dnieper river in the east , due to the Germanic bastanae tribe. The western border I cannot say.

But if we have , IMO, established a difference between the celtic people ( gallic and germanic) , then we can safely say that all ( most ) of the alps was under gallic influence

 

[Taranis]

iapetoc: the Scottish Gaels did arrive only in Britain during the Migration Period. The previous inhabitants (the so-called "Picts") were also P-Celtic.

I do not know the ancient borders of gallic-celts and germanic-celts, but there was a difference. The only thing I can say on the germanic border was the dnieper river in the east , due to the Germanic bastanae tribe. The western border I cannot say.

But if we have , IMO, established a difference between the celtic people ( gallic and germanic) , then we can safely say that all ( most ) of the alps was under gallic influence

Frankly, really I have no idea what you are trying to say here and what you are trying to argue.

 

[zanipolo]

Not entirely correct, U106 has been found on Crete in the Lasithi population, although significant as it supports evidence for a Bronze Age migration into the Balkans, I would prefer a few more Greek U106 results.

There is further evidence for a Bronze Age U152 migration into the Balkans when you consider the fact that Southern Italy where traditionally ancient Dorians had settled shows higher frequencies of U106 than North Italy.

South Italy 5.9% R-U106 of R1b.
North Italy 5.6% R-U105 of R1b.
National average Italy 3.55% of R1b.

U105 ? is that a typo?

 

[iapetoc]

The Bronze Age brought changes to Greece and Anatolia that influenced primarily regions known to have been settled by the Dorians. The similarities with central European proto-Celts are striking so I won't elaborate unless you insist on more clarity.

These people settled on Crete, the Peloponnese, the West coast of Anatolia and Southern Italy approximately 1200BC. We can deduce from the scattered nature, yet specific locations where U152+ has been discovered in Anatolia and Greece, as well as the slightly higher frequencies of U152+ in the Calabrian Greek population that U152+ is to some degree a Dorian marker.

The diversity and overall variance in Greece and Anatolia makes these findings too specific to ignore and warrant serious consideration in the overall scheme of things.

Dorians are connected with Iron age not Bronze, their estimation time is 900 BC and not 1200,