Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 43 of 43

Thread: Definition of Haplogroup J1

  1. #26
    Populace Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Ricardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-08-11
    Posts
    17
    Points
    2,265
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,265, Level: 13
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 185
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1b M365+ J1a1 ISOGG
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1ao1

    Ethnic group
    Brazilian Portuguese Founder
    Country: Brazil



    Every system of classification is a political attitude. We could have some of the major European haplogroups just classified as [IJ], [PQR], [E]. Some people had a shock of reality when they discovered that the R haplogroup was not the "Old Paleolithic European Man" or the "Indo-European Maker" but they could be only a lost Asian branch that came from the depths of Asia as members of the node K (xLT) M526 (formerly MNOPS) seen only as recent latecomers to Western Europe. So everything can be relative and the different types/clades/SNPs of J1 can be as different as the different types of R1 or E found in Africa and in Europe, for instance.

  2. #27
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    We live in a very strange and nasty world.

    I think most people in Europe, West Asia and Caucasus don't like the idea to be in J1 haplgroup, because they don't want to be associated with the Arabs or Turks. So what do they do? They rename it. And make it very special and very different to the Arabic subclade.

    But in Africa (like North Sudan or Ethiopia) people are very proud if they are allocated in J1 haplogroup. Because according to them J1 is a 'Caucasoid' haplogroup from the Middle East.
    The difference between J1c3-J1b-J1a is as big as the difference between R1a-R1b-R2a. So it is as important to be mentioned as the difference between other Haplogroups.

  3. #28
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
    Every system of classification is a political attitude. We could have some of the major European haplogroups just classified as [IJ], [PQR], [E]. Some people had a shock of reality when they discovered that the R haplogroup was not the "Old Paleolithic European Man" or the "Indo-European Maker" but they could be only a lost Asian branch that came from the depths of Asia as members of the node K (xLT) M526 (formerly MNOPS) seen only as recent latecomers to Western Europe. So everything can be relative and the different types/clades/SNPs of J1 can be as different as the different types of R1 or E found in Africa and in Europe, for instance.
    You're absolutely right. And I do 100% agree with you.

    The only thing I hope is that people don't mix politics and subcutaneous feelings with true science! Also some corrupted politicians use science in a very evil way. Haplogroups are a great 'tool' for the sincere scientists to 'investigate' history but a dreadful weapon in the hand of some individuals.

  4. #29
    Populace Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Ricardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-08-11
    Posts
    17
    Points
    2,265
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,265, Level: 13
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 185
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1b M365+ J1a1 ISOGG
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1ao1

    Ethnic group
    Brazilian Portuguese Founder
    Country: Brazil



    J1 is passion and war (as every haplogroup is but J1's can be more sectary in my opinion). In the last Millenium different types of J1's with different religions and political projects fought different sectarious wars. In Portugal the Christian J1 fought the Muslim J1 and the Jewish J1, the last one not only in Iberia but also in Brazil because part of the Portuguese Jewish community, a notable community, went to Amsterdam and they decided to attack Brazil with the help of the Dutch WIC and they lost the war in Brazil too, so nobody can be a J1 without a kind of agenda related to a historical form of "identity politics". The ethno-national clusters can be quite important here.

  5. #30
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Dorianfinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-08-11
    Posts
    466
    Points
    18,771
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,771, Level: 41
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 179
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-FGC13617
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b1

    Ethnic group
    European
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    The difference between J1c3-J1b-J1a is as big as the difference between R1a-R1b-R2a. So it is as important to be mentioned as the difference between other Haplogroups.
    It is difficult to compare J1 subclades to R1. R1b is much more defined and is similar to measuring in cm whereas R1a is less defined and is similar to measuring in meters. J1a/b/c are poorly defined and are like measuring in km. R2a doesn't come close yet..

  6. #31
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran

    Join Date
    21-04-11
    Posts
    27
    Points
    4,534
    Level
    19
    Points: 4,534, Level: 19
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H41a

    Ethnic group
    Pennsylvania Dutch/Swiss Mennonite
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
    J1 is passion and war (as every haplogroup is but J1's can be more sectary in my opinion). ..............so nobody can be a J1 without a kind of agenda related to a historical form of "identity politics". The ethno-national clusters can be quite important here.

    You sound like a J1.

  7. #32
    בלי עין הרע Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Semitic Duwa's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-03-10
    Location
    BEHIND YOUR HOUSE WITH A FLAME-THROWER
    Posts
    210
    Points
    5,455
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,455, Level: 21
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-Z18271 (Kohen)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5

    Ethnic group
    Half-Jewish (paternal) & Half-British (maternal)
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It has recently been found that some parts of the Caucasus have the highest percentage of J1 in the world (nearly 100% in some ethnic groups) and that the greatest genetic diversity of J1 was around Kurdistan and the Caucasus, not Arabia. This changes completely our understanding of J1's origins.
    The Caucasus is actually a region of low YSTR diversity as far J1 is concerned and we can see quite clearly a bottleneck effect linked to endogamy which led to J1*'s high frequencies amongst North-east caucasian speakers.
    The two places where diversity is found are the Zagros and Ethiopia [100% of Oromo J1 is J1* and 29% of Amharic J1 were J1*] (as pointed out by Chiaroni and Tofanelli's papers).
    And there was no such thing as "Kurdistan" at the time...
    I should also remind you that Oman has relative diversity too...

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I totally agree with that. What I meant was that J1c3(d) was especially common among speakers of Semitic languages, but I do not doubt that the origin of Semitic languages lies within haplogroup E1b1b. Actually both Hebrew and Arabic originated in the southern Levant, near the Sinai, where the percentage of E1b1b is the highest in the Middle East.
    There is only one E1b1b1 subclade which seems involved with the Semitic language family and that is E1b1b1c1 (M34+), a marker whose frequency follows neatly that of J1c3 (though being much less common, it peaks amongst Dead Sea Jordanians [bottleneck effect is likely to have played its part] and Ethiopian Semitic speakers while being found homogeneously amongst other Semitic populations)... Yet you forget one crucial element: Frequency doesn't provide a clue towards a marker's initial source.

    As for Semitic being some sort of E1b1b1 product, you must also consider that languages are products not only of isolation but most certainly of interaction... And when addressing a language spoken by nomads, pastoralists and herder-hunters, you must take into consideration the fact that interaction is a fundamental part of its survival (isn't most of humanity speaking a nomad-derived language? Indo-european? Turkic? Semitic? Austroasiatic? With the notable exception of Chinese, most of the languages spoken nowadays were first spoken by nomads!), which is why Akkadian (first semitic language attested) also shares features with North-east Caucasian languages such a Chechen.

    In proto-semitic vocabulary, we find many words for hills, mountains, bitumen and naphta (which are only found in the northern Levant)... A word for ice too, which suggests that PS probably has something to do with mountaineous areas... Like the Zagros where J-P58 and E-M34 have their greatest diversity.

    Chiaroni cited Kitchen's Bayesian analysis of Semitic language and also mentionned E-M123 (E-M34's parent clade) in these terms: "Although J1e (J1c3) is one of the most frequent haplogroups in the region, haplogroup E-M123 also shows its highest frequency and haplotype diversity in regions of the Fertile Crescent, decreasing towards the Arabian Peninsula. This co-distribution pattern of Y-chromosome haplogroups J1e and E-M123 resembles mtDNA haplogroups J1b and (PreHV)1 distributions that also display low levels of diversity despite their high frequency in Saudi Arabia."
    So why the need to speak only of E1b1b?
    Why is everyone so unrealistic?
    Wasn't J1 found amongst pre-hispanic Guanches (Fregel et al)?
    Haven't you wondered why it has high YSTR diversity in Ethiopia?
    The concept that E1b1b1 (M35) is the only marker linked to Afroasiatic is kind of shallow as you have to explain R1b1c (V88) and J1's frequencies amongst non-semitic Afroasiatic speakers too.

    Not even that, other haplogroups such as T1a* or J2a4h could be linked with the spread of Semitic languages.
    Last edited by Semitic Duwa; 26-08-11 at 01:10.

  8. #33
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Here is an interesting question: where was Proto-Semitic spoken? Semitic languages are spoken at the horn of Africa (specifically South Semitic ones, such as Amharic), and with the exception of of the Semitic family, all branches of Afro-Asiatic are only found in Africa. Therefore, one can speculate on the possibility that may be Proto-Semitic was indeed spoken at the Horn of Africa. At least, I do not want to rule out that possibility.

    Regarding Akkadian, it is the most divergent branch of the Semitic languages, in many respects mirroring to how the Anatolian language (e.g. Hittite) are most divergent amongst Indo-European.

  9. #34
    בלי עין הרע Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran5000 Experience Points
    Semitic Duwa's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-03-10
    Location
    BEHIND YOUR HOUSE WITH A FLAME-THROWER
    Posts
    210
    Points
    5,455
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,455, Level: 21
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 1.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-Z18271 (Kohen)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5

    Ethnic group
    Half-Jewish (paternal) & Half-British (maternal)
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Here is an interesting question: where was Proto-Semitic spoken? Semitic languages are spoken at the horn of Africa (specifically South Semitic ones, such as Amharic), and with the exception of of the Semitic family, all branches of Afro-Asiatic are only found in Africa. Therefore, one can speculate on the possibility that may be Proto-Semitic was indeed spoken at the Horn of Africa. At least, I do not want to rule out that possibility.

    Regarding Akkadian, it is the most divergent branch of the Semitic languages, in many respects mirroring to how the Anatolian language (e.g. Hittite) are most divergent amongst Indo-European.
    Proto-Semitic has common words for "camel" and "horse", the latter was introduced in Africa when Semitic languages were already being written in Mesopotamia... There are indications of earlier horse domestication in the arabian peninsula but we still need confirmation.

    Not only that, there are common words for "bitumen" and "naphta" that are really only found in the northern parts of the fertile crescent... Semitic also shares many characteristics with Nakho-Daghestanian languages (Avar, Chechen, Lezgi, etc...) whose speakers have high J1* (w/DYS388=13 repeats) frequencies.

    Last but not least, I advise you to take into consideration Andrew Kitchen's Bayesian analysis of Semitic aswell as Nicholls and Ryder's reanalysis of Kitchen's data which both support an origin in the Levant (the first paper was cited in Chiaroni's paper "The emergence of Y-chromosome haplogroup J1e among Arabic-speaking populations").

    Edit: Support for an African origin mainly stems from the highly divergent Gurage and Archeological record (Mushabian and Fayyum connections) as well as the African location of all other Afroasiatic language families (yet they all have ancient Caucasian and Sumerian words).

  10. #35
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Proto-Semitic has common words for "camel" and "horse", the latter was introduced in Africa when Semitic languages were already being written in Mesopotamia... There are indications of earlier horse domestication in the arabian peninsula but we still need confirmation.

    Not only that, there are common words for "bitumen" and "naphta" that are really only found in the northern parts of the fertile crescent... Semitic also shares many characteristics with Nakho-Daghestanian languages (Avar, Chechen, Lezgi, etc...) whose speakers have high J1* (w/DYS388=13 repeats) frequencies.
    These are very good points that speak indeed in favour of an origin in the Fertile Crescent, this absolutely convinces me, at least if these words in question are attested in most or all branches of the Semitic languages, and must be assumed to have been present in Proto-Semitic. There remains however the question of how the Semitic languages relate with the other branches of Afro-Asiatic.

    I also heard about the possible earlier domestication of the horse. This is indeed significant.

  11. #36
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    What? Is there 25.9% of hg. J1 (Y-DNA) in the States?



    http://www.cmj.hr/2007/48/4/17696299.htm

  12. #37
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    What? Is there 25.9% of hg. J1 (Y-DNA) in the States?



    http://www.cmj.hr/2007/48/4/17696299.htm
    isn't J1 a jewish marker as well as other levant people or am I wrong
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  13. #38
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    isn't J1 a jewish marker as well as other levant people or am I wrong
    Although there is some native J1 in Europe, I do also think that it's from the Jews and some from other Middle Easterners. Not so many folks from the Caucasus settled in the States, so it is probably from the Near East.

    But 25% is just too much. How is it possible when it is estimated that in the States live for about 5 – 6 million Jews?

    I just don't get it.

  14. #39
    Populace Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    Ricardo's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-08-11
    Posts
    17
    Points
    2,265
    Level
    13
    Points: 2,265, Level: 13
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 185
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1b M365+ J1a1 ISOGG
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1ao1

    Ethnic group
    Brazilian Portuguese Founder
    Country: Brazil



    [QUOTE=Goga;383816]What? Is there 25.9% of hg. J1 (Y-DNA) in the States?

    That's an old article. The sample was not representative of the entire population of the country/region but it was a biased sample directed towards J1's in some populations. All J1's SNPs and subclades are 458.2, so it can be considered as a kind of general J1 SNP and usually 458.2 is recognized as a J1 marker.

  15. #40
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Posts
    48


    Country: Saudi Arabia



    isn't J1 a jewish marker as well as other levant people or am I wrong

    most of J1 people are Arabs
    Last edited by Nova123; 13-10-11 at 13:43.

  16. #41
    Banned Achievements:
    OverdriveThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    06-06-11
    Posts
    2,651
    Points
    15,622
    Level
    37
    Points: 15,622, Level: 37
    Level completed: 97%, Points required for next Level: 28
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
    That's an old article. The sample was not representative of the entire population of the country/region but it was a biased sample directed towards J1's in some populations. All J1's SNPs and subclades are 458.2, so it can be considered as a kind of general J1 SNP and usually 458.2 is recognized as a J1 marker.
    Thanks for explaining this to me.

  17. #42
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Posts
    48


    Country: Saudi Arabia



    Y-DNA lineage = Race or Sub race ,

    culture (mainly language or religion ) = identity like : Arabs , Kurds , Berber, Turks, Persian , Greeks , Jews etc they are all cultural identity Not Racial lineages .

    " Their ancestors spoke deferent languages & belonged to deferent cultures (i.e. identities-ethnic group ) as a result of historical circumstances they left there previous identity's & assimilated and adopted the new one language and new cultural identity that’s how all the large ethnic groups in the world were crated"

    for example : J1 lineage is a Sub race of J lineage wish is a Sub race of IJ etc.. and all the human-race are the descendent of Y-DNA Adam lineage .Race has nothing to do with Phenotype such as skin color , face etc…. Genetic components are responsible for Phenotypes wish is changeable as a result of admixture or mutation .


    example of Some Arabians Phenotypes :

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...North-African-)


    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...ns-or-Arabians



    it should be noted that Modern day Kurdistan is part of the home of J1 before there was such thing as "Kurdistan" or "Kurds " or "Arabs" etc.............
    Last edited by Nova123; 14-10-11 at 19:00.

  18. #43
    Junior Member Achievements:
    31 days registered100 Experience Points

    Join Date
    30-01-19
    Posts
    3
    Points
    207
    Level
    2
    Points: 207, Level: 2
    Level completed: 57%, Points required for next Level: 43
    Overall activity: 1.0%


    Country: USA - West Virginia



    Under the Phylogeny of J1 it reads in part "ZS223 comprises the Cohen Modal Haplotype. In the Hebrew Bible, the common ancestor of all Cohens is identified as Aaron, the brother of Moses. Roughly half of all Cohanim belong to J1-ZS223. The Cohanim haplotype (YCAII=22-22) of ZS223 matches the Z18271 deep clade."

    Shouldn't that be ZS227 rather than ZS223?

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Why is mtDNA Haplogroup definition still based on CRS?
    By Joannis in forum mtDNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 17-02-11, 11:08
  2. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 30-06-06, 07:40

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •