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Thread: Definition of Haplogroup J1

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    Definition of Haplogroup J1

    Should the description of J1 on this Table be revised.
    http://www.eupedia.com/images/conten...thnicities.gif

    Most of the J1 subclades are found outside the semitic World. There are indeed subtypes which are almost only present outside of the Arabic Peninsula. Like J1a, J1b and J1c3 which are very frequent in the Caucasus. The only subclade which is really frequent on the Peninsula is J1c3d.

    Maciamo, so my suggestion is how about adding Caucasus into the description or splitting J1* into its subtypes just like R1b and R1a?

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    I have updated the history of J1. However, as 80% of the J1 people are indeed Semitic people, I don't know how to find a better short definition for the tables. In the Caucasus, J1 is especially high in Daghestan. What do you suggest ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have updated the history of J1. However, as 80% of the J1 people are indeed Semitic people, I don't know how to find a better short definition for the tables. In the Caucasus, J1 is especially high in Daghestan. What do you suggest ?
    Well, like mentioned frequentially seen, J1 is much more common in some Caucasian Groups.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...)#Distribution

    It is also much more diverse among Caucasians, Mesopotamians and Anatolians.
    J1 among Semitic People belongs mainly to the same branch J1c3d what can be explained with founder effect.

    The Haplogroup J1 is definitely not Semitic in Origin. J1c3, J1b, J1a... have their origin in the Fertile Crescent.

    J1c3d is a Semites specific Mutation of J1c3 from Fertile Crescent.

    Maciamo I suggest we should simply add Caucasian to the description table. A splitting of J1 into its subtypes would be much and unnecessary work.

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    Ok, I will consider it.

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    J1 is a central component in the Classical Antiquity, a long period of cultural history centered around the Mediterranean Sea, comprising the interlocking civilizations of ancient Greece and ancient Rome, collectively known as the Greco-Roman world. J1 as a substantive part of the [IJ] Native European founder node was a core haplogroup in the development of pastoralism, agriculture and the complex ideas of civilization, state, monotheistic religion and the alphabetic cultures. The haplogroup J1 arouse around the Northern regions of the Zagros-Taurus range. The most ancient and basal forms of J1 (L136 negative and P58 negative) are essentially connected and mainly concentrated in Eastern Anatolia, the Caucasus, the Caspian Sea and Northern Iran. J1 (L136-, P58-) was among the biggest single haplogroups in the Ancient Iranian peoples. J1 can be found in the West in old pre-historical movements in the Westernmost point of the Canary Islands or Portugal and at low but regular frequencies in any region of Western, Central and Eastern Europe. Distinct types of J1 also can be found in Western Europe as the result of warlike migrations and conquests like the Alans in Western Iberia (Northern Iranian and Portuguese-Brazilian cluster) and the Normans in Scotland bringing new Southern and Mediterranean types to Britain (Graham Project) with distinct and known modal haplotypes.

    Some notable examples from Western European J1 haplotypes

    J1b from the Ancient Portuguese Seaborne Worldwide Empire and the big Continental Brazilian frontiers
    J1b type-haplotypes:
    FTDNA J-M365 Project
    J1b M365 blog

    Scottish Graham J1c3d:
    Graham FTDNA Project

    And the FTDNA J1* Y-DNA Project:
    The J1* 388=13

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    Ricardo, if this is copied from another website, please provide your source and quotation marks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Ricardo, if this is copied from another website, please provide your source and quotation marks.
    Hello Maciamo

    I wrote it and I tried to post the citations and links but as I am a new member here I wasn't allowed to do it and I can't post any link because I still don't have 10 messages. I am the administrator of the FTDNA J-M365 and the FTDNA Brazil Project. I have been trying to understand the J1 haplogroup in the last years.

    My name is Ricardo Costa de Oliveira

    Regards

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    Ok, thanks for the explanation and welcome to the forum, by the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Ok, thanks for the explanation and welcome to the forum, by the way.
    Thank you ! Soon we will discover new European J1 SNPs and new European J1 STR clusters. J1 types can be closely related to some historical ethno-national identities in a very particular way.

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    I don't understand the current hype around this haplogroup??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I don't understand the current hype around this haplogroup??
    It has recently been found that some parts of the Caucasus have the highest percentage of J1 in the world (nearly 100% in some ethnic groups) and that the greatest genetic diversity of J1 was around Kurdistan and the Caucasus, not Arabia. This changes completely our understanding of J1's origins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It has recently been found that some parts of the Caucasus have the highest percentage of J1 in the world (nearly 100% in some ethnic groups) and that the greatest genetic diversity of J1 was around Kurdistan and the Caucasus, not Arabia. This changes completely our understanding of J1's origins.
    This changes a lot of things in my mind. Especially with regards to gene flow and the ethno-genisis of the Arab people. Would like to see these results replicated in adjoining regions of the Caucasus.

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    If you see the West Asian and Southwest Asian components on Dodecad, both are very close to each other while checking the distances, meaning that the difference between peoples from the Caucasus and from Arabia is not so huge (although it's apreciable). It's possible they come from the same ancient source, but separated by thousands of years. Enough to produce the difference.

    Actually, Georgians from the Caucasus side, and Saudis from the Arabic side, represent the maximum differenciated pole on each admixture (75% aprox). As more intermediate populations we check, sometimes the differences become incredibly trivial to distinguish if they are mostly from one side or the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I don't understand the current hype around this haplogroup??
    J1, a Haplogroup accused of being the sign of "arabic" invasion, is now known as one of the pastorals Haplogroups. And indeed J1 has its origin as Northern as J and is a sign of Invasion into Arabia not out of Arabia.

    J1 former seen as representative for Arabs.


    Is now seen in his original type as representative for this kind of People.



    This changes the whole definition of Haplogroup J1.

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    Can we give a rough time period for the introduction of J1 into Arabia? I believe there have been enough tests of Saudis to get a good diversity analysis of J1 in Arabia. The age of J1 is certainly old enough to predate the Arab ethnicity, so I don't think we should throw out all links to the spread of J1 and the spread of Arabs... this obviously just affects our understanding of where J1 was when its defining SNP(s) first arose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Can we give a rough time period for the introduction of J1 into Arabia? I believe there have been enough tests of Saudis to get a good diversity analysis of J1 in Arabia. The age of J1 is certainly old enough to predate the Arab ethnicity, so I don't think we should throw out all links to the spread of J1 and the spread of Arabs... this obviously just affects our understanding of where J1 was when its defining SNP(s) first arose.
    In Regions like Lebanon, Syria and Jordan a good portion of J1 is obviously the result of migration out of Saudi Arabia. But in Regions like Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Caucasus, The Haplogroup J1 is native.

    You also have to know and understand how things work in the Near East. The Reason why only Arabic speakers of the Levant (Syrians, Lebanese) got some J1 coming from Arabic Peninsula, is because they were culturally and linguistically arabized. Means Arab male mixed into the Population and imposed their language and culture on them. While non Arabic speaking Muslims were culturally influenced but never became Arabs. It is possible that Arabs married woman of non Arabic speaking Muslim groups. But a rule in Muslim, especially patriarchal communities like Kurds, is that the woman belongs to the family in which she has married.

    The Man does not become a Kurd but the woman becomes a non Kurd. This was also the rule among other Muslim populations. It was very rare that a foreign yDNA Haplogroups came through invasions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Can we give a rough time period for the introduction of J1 into Arabia? I believe there have been enough tests of Saudis to get a good diversity analysis of J1 in Arabia. The age of J1 is certainly old enough to predate the Arab ethnicity, so I don't think we should throw out all links to the spread of J1 and the spread of Arabs... this obviously just affects our understanding of where J1 was when its defining SNP(s) first arose.
    According to the new paper by Chiaroni et al., J1 started expanding from around Lake Van circa 10,000 years ago, when climate started to change and forced pastoralists to migrate across the Middle East following the rain patterns. This would have brought a first wave of J1 to the Levant, Mesopotamia and the Arabian peninsula. J1c3, the subclade almost exclusively associated with Semitic people, is thought to have originated in the north-west of the Arabian peninsula, and spread to the entire peninsula with the expansion of Proto-Arabic speakers in the Bronze Age. J1c3, and J1c3d in particular, would have re-expanded again out of Arabia with the rise of Islam. Note that countries like Tunisia and Algeria have over 30% of J1 and almost all of it (bare a few Phoenician lineages in similar proportions to the G and J2) can be attributed to the Arab conquest.

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    Fascinating. What I would be interested now is the question of Tuscan J1:



    Specifically, I would be interested in what exact subclade Tuscan J1 is, and if it is also possible to link it to the Caucasus or Anatolia. This would make a very strong case that the Etruscans indeed came from Anatolia.

    Regarding J1 as a "Semitic" or even "Arab" marker, it should be clear that it isn't exclusively that, even though without a doubt the conquests of the Umayyad Caliphate in the 7th and 8th centuries helped the spread of the Haplogroup. Also, it's been clear that J1 isn't the original "Semitic" Haplogroup either, because the Semitic language family is part of the greater Afro-Asiatic family (which includes the Berber languages, Egyptian and a few African language families such as the Chadic languages), and it seems far more likely that the original Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers were predominantly carriers of Haplogroup E.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Can we give a rough time period for the introduction of J1 into Arabia? I believe there have been enough tests of Saudis to get a good diversity analysis of J1 in Arabia. The age of J1 is certainly old enough to predate the Arab ethnicity, so I don't think we should throw out all links to the spread of J1 and the spread of Arabs... this obviously just affects our understanding of where J1 was when its defining SNP(s) first arose.
    Any thought on the very recent Oleg Balanovsky et al., Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region? They suggest 'origin of Caucasus male lineages from the Near East, followed by high levels of isolation, differentiation and genetic drift in situ.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Any thought on the very recent Oleg Balanovsky et al., Parallel Evolution of Genes and Languages in the Caucasus Region? They suggest 'origin of Caucasus male lineages from the Near East, followed by high levels of isolation, differentiation and genetic drift in situ.'
    With Near East they do not refer to Arabic Peninsula.

    Dark Green is the definition of Near East. The J1 in Northern Caucasus is the Result of migration from Lake Van.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ente_Medio.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Specifically, I would be interested in what exact subclade Tuscan J1 is, and if it is also possible to link it to the Caucasus or Anatolia. This would make a very strong case that the Etruscans indeed came from Anatolia.
    Unfortunately I don't know. I checked the FTDNA projects for J, J1*, and J1c3 and there are members of various clades in Italy, but no member specified from Tuscany. A lot of the Sicilian and Campanian J1 is J1c3 though.

    Regarding J1 as a "Semitic" or even "Arab" marker, it should be clear that it isn't exclusively that, even though without a doubt the conquests of the Umayyad Caliphate in the 7th and 8th centuries helped the spread of the Haplogroup. Also, it's been clear that J1 isn't the original "Semitic" Haplogroup either, because the Semitic language family is part of the greater Afro-Asiatic family (which includes the Berber languages, Egyptian and a few African language families such as the Chadic languages), and it seems far more likely that the original Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers were predominantly carriers of Haplogroup E.
    I totally agree with that. What I meant was that J1c3(d) was especially common among speakers of Semitic languages, but I do not doubt that the origin of Semitic languages lies within haplogroup E1b1b. Actually both Hebrew and Arabic originated in the southern Levant, near the Sinai, where the percentage of E1b1b is the highest in the Middle East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Unfortunately I don't know. I checked the FTDNA projects for J, J1*, and J1c3 and there are members of various clades in Italy, but no member specified from Tuscany. A lot of the Sicilian and Campanian J1 is J1c3 though.
    That is most unfortunate indeed. I still hope that eventually we will find out.

    Also, it shouldn't be really surprising if you find a lot of J1c3 in Sicily, given how it was Muslim-ruled/influenced for a considerable time, and the concentration/distribution of J1 in Sicily seems to correlate with that. With regard for Campanian J1, I am a tad surprised though.

    I totally agree with that. What I meant was that J1c3(d) was especially common among speakers of Semitic languages, but I do not doubt that the origin of Semitic languages lies within haplogroup E1b1b. Actually both Hebrew and Arabic originated in the southern Levant, near the Sinai, where the percentage of E1b1b is the highest in the Middle East.
    Yeah, I see. But don't forget about Akkadian. It is the oldest attested Semitic language (and after Ancient Egyptian, the oldest attested Afro-Asiatic language), but it is in quite some respects the most abberant branch of the Semitic languages, sort of mirroring the situation with Hittite inside Indo-European.

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    We live in a very strange and nasty world.

    I think most people in Europe, West Asia and Caucasus don't like the idea to be in J1 haplgroup, because they don't want to be associated with the Arabs or Turks. So what do they do? They rename it. And make it very special and very different to the Arabic subclade.

    But in Africa (like North Sudan or Ethiopia) people are very proud if they are allocated in J1 haplogroup. Because according to them J1 is a 'Caucasoid' haplogroup from the Middle East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    We live in a very strange and nasty world.

    I think most people in Europe, West Asia and Caucasus don't like the idea to be in J1 haplgroup, because they don't want to be associated with the Arabs or Turks. So what do they do? They rename it. And make it very special and very different to the Arabic subclade.

    But in Africa (like North Sudan or Ethiopia) people are very proud if they are allocated in J1 haplogroup. Because according to them J1 is a 'Caucasoid' haplogroup from the Middle East.
    I am a proud son of an endangered branch of Cro-Magnon who demands Europe be returned to its original inhabitants!

    Er... I mean... how silly it is to be proud of a haplogroup. Even if an individual has an Arabian subclade of J1, it doesn't make them Arabian, and they can go on being white nationalists or whatever it is that people who are proud of their haplogroup do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I am a proud son of an endangered branch of Cro-Magnon who demands Europe be returned to its original inhabitants!

    Er... I mean... how silly it is to be proud of a haplogroup. Even if an individual has an Arabian subclade of J1, it doesn't make them Arabian, and they can go on being white nationalists or whatever it is that people who are proud of their haplogroup do.
    Some time ago I was searching for some info on google and I opened a forum from Africa were some individuals from an African country were very pleased that their nation had some J1 or something like that.

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