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Thread: Interesting coincidence between R1b and high GDP

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    2 members found this post helpful.

    Interesting coincidence between R1b and high GDP

    I know how this kind of topic can be controversial and I want to insist that I only intend it as an interesting observation, with no hidden agenda. I couldn't help noticing that within a same country (it doesn't work in comparisons between country with different histories, cultures and systems) and if we exclude capitals, the richest regions are usually those that have the highest percentage of R1b. I didn't count small countries because I couldn't find regional data for DNA or GDP.

    In Spain, the highest regional GDP per capita are those of the Basque country, Navarra and Catalonia, and all have over 80% of R1b. The poorest autonomous region is Extremadura, which has 50% of R1b, the lowest in Spain.

    In Italy, the North is the richest (55% R1b), followed by the Centre (43% R1b), and the South is the poorest (29% R1b). Within the North, Lombardy, Trentino-Alto Adige and Emilia-Romagna are the three wealthiest regions, and they correspond to the only "+60%" area on Maciamo's map.

    In Germany, the North and East are the poorest, and this is where R1b is the lowest (36% against 48% in the West and South).

    In Greece, the South (Attica, Boeotia, Peloponnese), the Aegean Islands and Crete are the richest, and this is also where R1b is the highest.

    I couldn't find regional haplogroup frequencies for England, and anyway there aren't big differences of GDP per capita outside London and the Southeast region. France has variations in R1b but not so much in regional GDP per capita. France looks like an exception.

    I am not saying that having an R1b Y-chromosome makes people richer or makes them work harder or makes them more ambitious. I don't see how it could. I just thought it was a funny coincidence.

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    Does the Basque region of Spain and Ireland not both have very high levels of r1b?

    What other things do these two region have, that's right terrorist organisations!

    ETA and the IRA, does high levels of r1b make you more likely to be a terrorist?

    Looks like we have found the western European terror gene
    I think you should be carefully what conclusions you draw from regional gene maps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    Does the Basque region of Spain and Ireland not both have very high levels of r1b?

    What other things do these two region have, that's right terrorist organisations!

    ETA and the IRA, does high levels of r1b make you more likely to be a terrorist?

    Looks like we have found the western European terror gene
    I think you should be carefully what conclusions you draw from regional gene maps.
    Very funny. But let's not get carried away with sophist logic. There are plenty of non-R1b countries that have terrorists. You just picked two that came from R1b countries. You could have used the same flawed logic with just about anything.

    I checked if the correlation between R1b and GDP per capita held in other countries, and so far it does. West Poland has more R1b and is richer than East Poland. R1b is the highest in the south-west of the country in Norway, Sweden and Finland, and that is also where the wealth is located (if you exclude the capitals, which get money from nationwide taxes). In Turkey, R1b is highest in the Black Sea region, and it is one of the wealthiest region (I couldn't find the data, but I am pretty sure it is). South-east Turkey (Turkish Kurdistan) has the lowest R1b of the country and is the poorest part too. In former Yugoslavia, Slovenia had the highest R1b and was the richest. Bosnia-Herzegovina had the lowest R1b and was the poorest.

    The allusion to Basque terrorism actually is in line with what I wrote. The Basques and the Catalans want their independence from the rest of Spain because they are richer and don't want to pay taxes to support poorer regions. It's the same with North Italy. Only the Basques resorted to terrorism, but the fundamental motive behind the separatist movement is chiefly money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacker22 View Post
    I know how this kind of topic can be controversial and I want to insist that I only intend it as an interesting observation, with no hidden agenda. I couldn't help noticing that within a same country (it doesn't work in comparisons between country with different histories, cultures and systems) and if we exclude capitals, the richest regions are usually those that have the highest percentage of R1b. I didn't count small countries because I couldn't find regional data for DNA or GDP.

    In Spain, the highest regional GDP per capita are those of the Basque country, Navarra and Catalonia, and all have over 80% of R1b. The poorest autonomous region is Extremadura, which has 50% of R1b, the lowest in Spain.

    In Italy, the North is the richest (55% R1b), followed by the Centre (43% R1b), and the South is the poorest (29% R1b). Within the North, Lombardy, Trentino-Alto Adige and Emilia-Romagna are the three wealthiest regions, and they correspond to the only "+60%" area on Maciamo's map.

    In Germany, the North and East are the poorest, and this is where R1b is the lowest (36% against 48% in the West and South).

    In Greece, the South (Attica, Boeotia, Peloponnese), the Aegean Islands and Crete are the richest, and this is also where R1b is the highest.

    I couldn't find regional haplogroup frequencies for England, and anyway there aren't big differences of GDP per capita outside London and the Southeast region. France has variations in R1b but not so much in regional GDP per capita. France looks like an exception.

    I am not saying that having an R1b Y-chromosome makes people richer or makes them work harder or makes them more ambitious. I don't see how it could. I just thought it was a funny coincidence.

    you wrong about Greece and you do not know the History,
    even today the most rich Greeks are the Thessaloniki old families, although after 1950 and especially 1970 area is de-capited,
    1n before 100 you would say oposite,
    the richest among Greeks still are the Kastoria furs textile artists,
    Thessaly has also Big 'rich' families
    Crete is rich due to Tourism and mostly after 70-80's
    in 1920's the most rich workers were the thracian tobaco producers (basmas)
    it is all about policy and country plans,
    Modern North Greece was de-industrialized due to the fear of communism and slavs of North, the Fyromians,
    in areas where you expect wars you do not put heavy industry,
    on the other hand North Greece production was No1 in 70's and model area of agricultural developement in Europe,
    upon that model many areas in balkans and rest North mediterrenean are build,
    just remember that in 70's was the California of Europe,
    we live in 2010 and changes grow fast,
    your example for Greece is just an co-incidence of time cause before 30 years and before you might say oposite,
    just remember that ioanina Epirus which is one the most 10 more poor areas of europe was one of the richest for centuries, due to silver,
    After JP-Morgan Ioannina got poor due to silver-artists moved all over world,

    Besides North Greece and especially Makedonia has the best medical care maybe in Europe,
    just remember that is 1 of the 2 biggest in Cancer and lemphomas centers in Europe comparing only with Sienna-milan
    but they are paid 1/10,
    think that first transplantation of myelic bone in Europe done there,

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    Although I am R1b I disagree with this observation for one reason. Many of the wealthiest individuals who make up the wealthiest 1% in the world are concentrated in R1b countries yet they are from all over the globe. These super wealthy families have not accumulated their wealth by fare competition but for the most part come from old Banking (money-lending) and military backgrounds. They push up the GDP per capita of the USA, Switzerland and the UK dramatically.

    What your observation does prove is that predominantly R1b countries have significant banking and security infrastructure.

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    In Greece the GDP per capita following unification was concentrated in Thessaloniki, Corfu and Syros. Corfu contributed approximately 25% of Greece's GDP where Corfu, Thessaloniki and Syros paid for Athens' developing infrastructure. The major Banking institutions in Greece were founded in these three cities. The largest institution in Greece, NBG, was consolidated into its current form predominantly from this banking enterprise.

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    I don't like to give too much importance to haplogroups. It has been proved that they have no phenotypical impact and, of course, impossible to affect such thing as economy.

    I don't doubt this thread was created with the best of intentions, but it reminds me another one claiming haplogroup E as the best explanation for the poor areas, or the countries experiencing difficulties. Sometimes, things can't be reduced to a simple argumentation, and we must consider lots of factors. So in my opinion we must take this as a correlation, not as an answer. Just note there are rich places in Asia or the Arabian Peninsula with little or no R1b...so it means nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacker22 View Post
    In Greece, the South (Attica, Boeotia, Peloponnese), the Aegean Islands and Crete are the richest, and this is also where R1b is the highest.:
    Iapetoc is correct, traditionally northern Greece was the more affluent and the southern part and islands were the poorest. It is all to do with arrable land not R1b, the north has the most productive land for agriculture and industry whilst the south is relatively rocky with less rainfall. It is only the tourism boom of the last 20yrs or so that has boosted the economies of southern Greece and the islands, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    It has been proved that they have no phenotypical impact and, of course, impossible to affect such thing as economy.
    Although haplogroups may not influence appearance or intelligence they are significant historical markers that point to cultural aspects that impact on appearance and intelligence such as access to knowledge, cognitive aptitude (memory+concentration), diet and exercise. Access to resources, good governance and security all depend heavily on a group's ability to manage information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    there are rich places in Asia or the Arabian Peninsula with little or no R1b...so it means nothing.
    In these instances Euro-centric models are used with one significant difference, low cost per unit output (cheap labor). Most wealthy families from 3rd world countries send their children to study and adopt the practices of Euro-centric nations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacker22 View Post
    In Germany, the North and East are the poorest, and this is where R1b is the lowest (36% against 48% in the West and South).
    For centuries the South of Germany has always been far behind the North (Prussia). Economically the South started to catch up after WWII, after it started to transform it's agricultural economy apruptly to a modern service company based economy. Previously all the traditional manufacturing and mining industries have been located in the North. But similiar to the North of England these industrious regions lost their importance from the 1960's on. And don't forget the results of communist rule in East Germany. (Well ok, actually after R1b as the great performer haplogroup and E as the corruption haplogroup I'm still waiting for R1a as the socialist haplogroup to come... )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigone View Post
    It is all to do with arrable land not R1b, the north has the most productive land for agriculture and industry whilst the south is relatively rocky with less rainfall. It is only the tourism boom of the last 20yrs or so that has boosted the economies of southern Greece and the islands, of course.
    Greece's agriculture has never played a significant role in the GDP except maybe the production of fertilizer and export of currants. Olive oil was mostly for internal consumption. Interestingly Greece's lack of arable land and poor farming practices are inherent Greek problems. Before the tourism boom, income was generated from 3 primary sources, remittances from Greeks overseas, shipping and banking. Thessaloniki was an important shipping and financial center for the Balkan region. Corfu and Syros had accumulated significant human capital and wealth as they had been protected by Venice and France for centuries.

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    the wealthiest regions in France are all in the east (especially Alsace, Rhône-Alpes, French riviera) except Paris while R1b is higher in the west

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    Jacker22, how does Chad stack up in the international rankings?

    It's funny I stumbled over this thread because I was thinking of starting a parallel idea... but I was going to concentrate on the financial success of I1 heavy nations. However, the I1 countries do seem to have their wealth more evenly spread out (ie. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland) than their R1b dominate counterparts. It would be interesting to see how an I1 nation would fare if they had an 80% or more population advantage.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    Jacker22, how does Chad stack up in the international rankings?

    It's funny I stumbled over this thread because I was thinking of starting a parallel idea... but I was going to concentrate on the financial success of I1 heavy nations. However, the I1 countries do seem to have their wealth more evenly spread out (ie. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland) than their R1b dominate counterparts. It would be interesting to see how an I1 nation would fare if they had an 80% or more population advantage.
    Chad ranks fairly low.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)
    I think using haplogroups to determine economic circumstance is a useless practice. History plays the central role, i.e the current state of sub saharan African can be attributed to its colonial rape by Europe, and not its paternal lineages.

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    Anthro-, my Chad inquiry was delivered tongue in cheek. Sometimes the written word doesn't convey full meaning. My fault.

    But you're correct in pointing out sub-Sahara would have been far better off without Europe's (and the Americas) involvement. I don't know that Chad would be on top of the heap internationally though even if the colonial nastiness had never happened.

    I used to figure that y-DNA had no impact on societal structure, but now I think there are subtle effects that do add up over time. In fact I think R1b's overwhelming success comes from how they layered their tribal make-up starting thousands of years ago, and how they've kept these systems in place into the modern era.

    P.S. And yes I think there's a genetic element to this structuring. For example, bees from distant parts of the globe have differing hive behaviors (some more aggressive, some more docile) and some vary in worker independence. The same probably applies to the human condition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    Anthro-, my Chad inquiry was delivered tongue in cheek. Sometimes text doesn't convey full subtext.

    But you're correct in pointing out sub-Sahara would have been better of without Europe's (and the Americas) involvement.

    I used to think y-DNA had no impact on societal structures, but now I think there are subtle effects that add up over time. In fact I think R1b's overwhelming success comes from how they layered their tribal make-up from thousands of years ago.
    Ah I now see the phrasing of your question was a challenge rather than a contribution. Hard to see on text, or perhaps im too serious, who knows. Also about your point on societal structures, in our modern day society, I think being R1b and I1 will not separate us, perhaps long ago in the days of tribal conquest, but today I dont think there has been much carry over. Culture is a very complex entity, and varies greatly from region to region, haplogroups are just one layer, we sometimes forget the deep layers under the superficial letters we have ascribed ourselves to.

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    I like to think it was a challenge AND a contribution... or at least a challenging contribution. I'm doing my part to prop up the hg. I family. :)

    **EDIT**
    I do hope you're right that these alpha-numeric labels won't divide us... maybe mankind has finally evolved past the tribal conflict stage. Plus hg I and hg R have made for a pretty powerful combo over these last few thousand years.

    Of course the main reason we should foster a continued sense of y-DNA cooperation in the Western World is that hg. R has a 4 to 1 population advantage. Yikes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    I like to think it was a challenge AND a contribution... or at least a challenging contribution. I'm doing my part to prop up the hg. I family. :)

    **EDIT**
    I do hope you're right that these alpha-numeric labels won't divide us... maybe mankind has finally evolved past the tribal conflict stage. Plus hg I and hg R have made for a pretty powerful combo over these last few thousand years.

    Of course the main reason we should foster a continued sense of y-DNA cooperation in the Western World is that hg. R has a 4 to 1 population advantage. Yikes!
    Lol, I wouldnt worry NW, I dont think theres any national socialist looking to round up all the I1's. What will separate us probably will be tribal in essence, the need for resources and consumer demand being the biggest factors of a possible tribal or national conflict, but this will have nothing to do with our paternal lineages, but more what country we happen to reside in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthro-inclined View Post
    Lol, I wouldnt worry NW, I dont think theres any national socialist looking to round up all the I1's... but this will have nothing to do with our paternal lineages, but more what country we happen to reside in.
    Now we are getting into really interesting territory Anthro-. Of course this subject would require a dedicated thread...

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    I've been reflecting on the R1b/Chad orientation and have been reviewing the financial status of the peoples in Africa.

    The most economically advanced sub Sahara nation seems to be South Africa which is interesting because with the Boer influence-- this region would have received a decent influx of hg. I (and most probable I1). I can't think of an area in sub Sahara Africa that would have a higher percentage of hg. I1 in the population than South Africa.

    Also interesting to note: historically here in the U.S. the North has been considered the economic powerhouse compared to the Southern states. The band of high hg. I1 in the U.S. runs from Pennsylvania to Ohio, then to Indiana and Minnesota, and westward into Montana. All northern states. The South is much heavier in R1b from the British Isles (English, Scotch-Irish, Welsh). Not much concentration of hg I1 in the Southern U.S. that I can find.

    So maybe the link between hg I1 and economic success is a valid one. There certainly seems to be a correlation (Northern Europe, South Africa, Northern U.S.).
    Last edited by nordicwarbler; 25-04-13 at 14:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    I've been reflecting on the R1b/Chad orientation and have been reviewing the financial status of the peoples in Africa.

    The most economically advanced sub Sahara nation seems to be South Africa which is interesting because with the Boer influence-- this region would have received a decent influx of hg. I (and most probable I1). I can't think of an area in sub Sahara Africa that would have a higher percentage of hg. I1 in the population than South Africa.

    Also interesting to note: historically here in the U.S. the North has been considered the economic powerhouse compared to the Southern states. The band of high hg. I1 in the U.S. runs from Pennsylvania to Ohio, then to Indiana and Minnesota, and westward into Montana. All northern states. The South is much heavier in R1b from the British Isles (English, Scotch-Irish, Welsh). Not much concentration of hg I1 in the Southern U.S. that I can find.

    So maybe the link between hg I1 and economic success is a valid one. There certainly seems to be a correlation (Northern Europe, South Africa, Northern U.S.).
    I also would link it with more orderly societies, which might go hand in hand with capitalistic production system, therefore high GDP. Most orderly society in Asia is Japane. They lead Asia in GDP per capita for more than last 100 years, since they embraced Western technology. There is no hg I in Japanese, so I guess, this trace of character must be in autosomal DNA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I also would link it with more orderly societies, which might go hand in hand with capitalistic production system, therefore high GDP. Most orderly society in Asia is Japane. They lead Asia in GDP per capita for more than last 100 years, since they embraced Western technology. There is no hg I in Japanese, so I guess, this trace of character must be in autosomal DNA.
    Maybe, but this thread concerns a possible y-DNA link. "Interesting coincidence between R1b and high GDP" is the title. Now Lebrok (my R1b membered friend), why didn't you make your autosomal claim much earlier-- before I pointed out the success of hg I1 societies?

    Regarding Japan... they also have a compelling y-DNA proportional mix, but with hg's D and O instead of I and R.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nordicwarbler View Post
    why didn't you make your autosomal claim much earlier-- before I pointed out the success of hg I1 societies?
    I did in some other thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I also would link it with more orderly societies, which might go hand in hand with capitalistic production system, therefore high GDP. Most orderly society in Asia is Japane. They lead Asia in GDP per capita for more than last 100 years, since they embraced Western technology. There is no hg I in Japanese, so I guess, this trace of character must be in autosomal DNA.
    A link between R1b and economic productivity could be either:

    1) caused by the Y chromosome itself ; the masculine traits expressed by the genes on the Y chromosomes might lead to increased ambition, industriousness, desire to heighten one's social standing, or any other male motivation to make money.

    2) caused by autosomal genes that were spread by R1b people at one point in history. In that case the correlation would only apply to the subclades of R1b downstream of the original population that acquired and spread the beneficial mutations outside the Y chromosome. Considering that the correlation seems to apply to all Europe, and since European R1b (downstream of M269) expanded relatively recently (Bronze Age) by evolutionary standards.

    Either way, such beneficial mutations, if they exist, would provide one more explanation on the phenomenal success of R1b in replacing other male lineages in Europe.


    If I were to choose, I am inclined to to say that such a mutation would be more likely to exist in the Y chromosome because:

    a) it is the only chromosome that differentiate male from female behaviour, and traits such as ambition, money-earning, pride, social status, etc. are all distinctively male traits.

    b) A mutation on the Y chromosome provides a more potent case in favour of the tremendous expansion of R1b

    c) Some or all of the potentially beneficial mutations on the R1b Y-chromosome might also be found in other haplogroups close to R1b in the phylogenetic tree. This of course includes R1a (whose members had at least as much success in their Bronze Age expansion), but also haplogroups O and Q, who were both extremely successful in replacing other haplogroups in East Asia and the Americas respectively.

    Therefore, the economic success of the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese may stem from the same Y-chromosomal mutations of those of R1a and R1b carriers.


    As for I1, its strategy may be slightly different from haplogroup O, Q and R, but seems to have been particularly effective in two periods of history: the early Middle Ages and the contemporary period (from the 20th century). Interestingly, this also corresponds to the two "golden ages" of haplogroup J1 (early medieval Arabic expansion, and the recent enrichment of the Arabian peninsula).

    If Y-DNA indeed influences male behaviour (as it should), all haplogroups surely have a "strategy", a sort of extended phenotype that would guide their behaviour and condition their success based on their environment. That may be why some haplogroups prosper more in some environments and historical/economical circumstances than others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    A link between R1b and economic productivity could be either:

    1) caused by the Y chromosome itself ; the masculine traits expressed by the genes on the Y chromosomes might lead to increased ambition, industriousness, desire to heighten one's social standing, or any other male motivation to make money.

    2) caused by autosomal genes that were spread by R1b people at one point in history. In that case the correlation would only apply to the subclades of R1b downstream of the original population that acquired and spread the beneficial mutations outside the Y chromosome. Considering that the correlation seems to apply to all Europe, and since European R1b (downstream of M269) expanded relatively recently (Bronze Age) by evolutionary standards.

    Either way, such beneficial mutations, if they exist, would provide one more explanation on the phenomenal success of R1b in replacing other male lineages in Europe.


    If I were to choose, I am inclined to to say that such a mutation would be more likely to exist in the Y chromosome because:

    a) it is the only chromosome that differentiate male from female behaviour, and traits such as ambition, money-earning, pride, social status, etc. are all distinctively male traits.

    b) A mutation on the Y chromosome provides a more potent case in favour of the tremendous expansion of R1b

    c) Some or all of the potentially beneficial mutations on the R1b Y-chromosome might also be found in other haplogroups close to R1b in the phylogenetic tree. This of course includes R1a (whose members had at least as much success in their Bronze Age expansion), but also haplogroups O and Q, who were both extremely successful in replacing other haplogroups in East Asia and the Americas respectively.

    Therefore, the economic success of the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese may stem from the same Y-chromosomal mutations of those of R1a and R1b carriers.


    As for I1, its strategy may be slightly different from haplogroup O, Q and R, but seems to have been particularly effective in two periods of history: the early Middle Ages and the contemporary period (from the 20th century). Interestingly, this also corresponds to the two "golden ages" of haplogroup J1 (early medieval Arabic expansion, and the recent enrichment of the Arabian peninsula).

    If Y-DNA indeed influences male behaviour (as it should), all haplogroups surely have a "strategy", a sort of extended phenotype that would guide their behaviour and condition their success based on their environment. That may be why some haplogroups prosper more in some environments and historical/economical circumstances than others.
    Ah, the calavry has arrived!

    Maciamo, you seem to be glossing over the entire R1b branch found in Chad. I1 does not have a corresponding geographical chink in the Gross Domestic Product armor, but let's not this minor detail halt an interesting debate.

    I've been brutally honest in assessing the negative characteristics of hg. I and I1 in the past. Not only have I discussed increased levels of autism and other psychological disorders (in my opinion brought on by an earlier onset of puberty-- or a more efficient testosterone uptake system), I've also addressed the fact that hg. I members will most likely show up with larger than expected percentages in the penal system (again linked to a rise in testosterone). This "T factor" will prove an enormous advantage to those who are able to harness it... and these individuals will be found to be more likely running corporations and leading sports teams.

    Now that I've pointed out my own group's flaws, I feel more comfortable mentioning some of my R1b observations. It is my humble opinion that R1b's success comes not from an over abundance of masculine traits that Maciamo boasts about, but more from a lack thereof. R1b's reduced male hormonal levels would foster a sense of cooperation which is key to business endeavors and really anything else involving a group effort (counterintuitively even war efforts involving sizable populations).

    This next statement is going to be controversial, but I predict we will find an increased level of bisexuality... and even homosexuality... associated with the R1b lines. This would tie back to the testosterone factor mentioned earlier.

    Returning to my bee analogy-- R1b individuals would have had to develop systems and strategies to deal with the larger and more powerful hg. I members. It may be helpful to think of the hg. I population as bumblebees and R1b as more numerous (and pound for pound probably more industrious) honey bees.

    And of most import, an efficient and layered communication network also assisted R1b in their population gains.
    Last edited by nordicwarbler; 26-04-13 at 13:17.

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