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Thread: Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

  1. #451
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    To summarize, the Dacians,Thracians and Illyrians were very smart people,with tremendous culture,that's why they have interpreted the Roman and Greek influences in their own way,that's why the Romanians can't be Italians or Greeks ever.

  2. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Dalmatian language belong to Italo-Dalmatian branch of Romance languages, unlike Romanian, Aromanian and Istro-Romanian which are eastern Romance languages.
    Speakers of Dalmatian language were not Vlachs. They were at the high at high degree of cultural development and they were urban population which lived in coastal cities of eastern Adriatic.
    Unlike Dalmatin Romance people Vlachs were sheperds from central, southern and eastern Balkans.

    Let's not exaggerate, every people had vices...


    For instance,the Ardiaei were well-known heavy drinkers.

    "To the Greek world,the Illyrians appeared as heavy drinkers,from the drinking bouts of the Ardiaei,from which intoxicated men were conveyed home by their women,who had also participated,to the overindulgence of their kings,Agron and Gentius.


    CTRL+F:heavy drinkers

    https://archive.org/stream/15826619J...rians_djvu.txt

  3. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreptul Valah View Post
    To summarize, the Dacians,Thracians and Illyrians were very smart people,with tremendous culture,that's why they have interpreted the Roman and Greek influences in their own way,that's why the Romanians can't be Italians or Greeks ever.
    I wonder what will happen to this thread when Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians will turn out majority R1a (as expected).

  4. #454
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Romanians vlachs are predominantly Slavic DNA with various influences (the Balkans category), and the Vlachs of Greece and Albania (aromanians) have predominantly Greek DNA and mixed with various influences.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Hi there,

    I recently have tested Big Y and my subclade confirmed as E-Y16729.
    I also have one match on 67 str markers with origins from Korce county in Albania.
    This man is probably an orthodox Christian as he has a Christian name and lives in USA as some of his ancestors have emigrated there at the beginning of the 20th century.
    Recently I found out about this useful website: https://yhrd.org
    There you can compare your str markers with thousands of other samples from all over the world, collected by various researchers.
    What I found is that I have very close matches with Aromanians from Stip, Macedonia and Dukasi, Albania:


    forum image hosting


    I have also uploaded my VCF file to YFULL and I am assigned as YF12612 and on the Y-tree as Y16729*.
    I am not an Aromanian myself, however these close matches with Aromanians make me think that there is a possible Aromanian connection when it comes to my paternal line.
    Also there is a family story that my paternal line originates somewhere more to the west in the Balkans as they came to the place where I am from, with some eastward migrations that occurred during the time of the Ottoman empire.
    This coincides well with my match having origins from the Korce county in Albania!

    So my question is, is my subclade, which right now is found in only one Bulgarian and me in the Balkans, in the British isles and the Persian gulf, possible Aromanian linage?
    Keep in mind that I don't cluster with the Bulgarian nor with the British or the Persian gulf branch but I form my own branch, probably together with my 67 str markers match who hasn't tested for deep subclade!

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by JajarBingan View Post
    I wonder what will happen to this thread when Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians will turn out majority R1a (as expected).
    I wonder what will happen to this thread when you find out your expectations are stuck in 2009

  7. #457
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JajarBingan View Post
    I wonder what will happen to this thread when Dacians, Thracians and Illyrians will turn out majority R1a (as expected).
    What are you on about? Proto-Illyrian was already discovered in Dalmatia to be J2b-L283. I can't comment on Dacians, but 2 Thracian graves uncovered were E-V13, and the other was R1a(of the Z93 variety). They wouldn't turn out the majority of R1a in the Balkans today which is Slavic/Germanic/Central Asian. Unless alot of basal M417 pops up. DOUBTFUL.

  8. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Hi there,

    I recently have tested Big Y and my subclade confirmed as E-Y16729.
    I also have one match on 67 str markers with origins from Korce county in Albania.
    This man is probably an orthodox Christian as he has a Christian name and lives in USA as some of his ancestors have emigrated there at the beginning of the 20th century.
    Recently I found out about this useful website: https://yhrd.org
    There you can compare your str markers with thousands of other samples from all over the world, collected by various researchers.
    What I found is that I have very close matches with Aromanians from Stip, Macedonia and Dukasi, Albania:


    forum image hosting


    I have also uploaded my VCF file to YFULL and I am assigned as YF12612 and on the Y-tree as Y16729*.
    I am not an Aromanian myself, however these close matches with Aromanians make me think that there is a possible Aromanian connection when it comes to my paternal line.
    Also there is a family story that my paternal line originates somewhere more to the west in the Balkans as they came to the place where I am from, with some eastward migrations that occurred during the time of the Ottoman empire.
    This coincides well with my match having origins from the Korce county in Albania!

    So my question is, is my subclade, which right now is found in only one Bulgarian and me in the Balkans, in the British isles and the Persian gulf, possible Aromanian linage?
    Keep in mind that I don't cluster with the Bulgarian nor with the British or the Persian gulf branch but I form my own branch, probably together with my 67 str markers match who hasn't tested for deep subclade!

    It is not accepting my CSV file. Is there a way it has to be formatted or something? Mine is from FullGenomes. Also on manual entry some of my STR values are coming up red and the system is not accepting my values? strange.

  9. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Hi there,

    I recently have tested Big Y and my subclade confirmed as E-Y16729.
    I also have one match on 67 str markers with origins from Korce county in Albania.
    This man is probably an orthodox Christian as he has a Christian name and lives in USA as some of his ancestors have emigrated there at the beginning of the 20th century.
    Recently I found out about this useful website: https://yhrd.org
    There you can compare your str markers with thousands of other samples from all over the world, collected by various researchers.
    What I found is that I have very close matches with Aromanians from Stip, Macedonia and Dukasi, Albania:


    forum image hosting


    I have also uploaded my VCF file to YFULL and I am assigned as YF12612 and on the Y-tree as Y16729*.
    I am not an Aromanian myself, however these close matches with Aromanians make me think that there is a possible Aromanian connection when it comes to my paternal line.
    Also there is a family story that my paternal line originates somewhere more to the west in the Balkans as they came to the place where I am from, with some eastward migrations that occurred during the time of the Ottoman empire.
    This coincides well with my match having origins from the Korce county in Albania!

    So my question is, is my subclade, which right now is found in only one Bulgarian and me in the Balkans, in the British isles and the Persian gulf, possible Aromanian linage?
    Keep in mind that I don't cluster with the Bulgarian nor with the British or the Persian gulf branch but I form my own branch, probably together with my 67 str markers match who hasn't tested for deep subclade!
    I tried again by manual entry with Yfiler, and no matches in the entire database. Does that make sense?

  10. #460
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I tried again by manual entry with Yfiler, and no matches in the entire database. Does that make sense?
    Hi Dibran,

    After you type your values manually, press on "Add" and choose minimal haplotype.
    Than further down, you will see a map with your close matches...

  11. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Hi there,

    I recently have tested Big Y and my subclade confirmed as E-Y16729.
    I also have one match on 67 str markers with origins from Korce county in Albania.
    This man is probably an orthodox Christian as he has a Christian name and lives in USA as some of his ancestors have emigrated there at the beginning of the 20th century.
    Recently I found out about this useful website: https://yhrd.org
    There you can compare your str markers with thousands of other samples from all over the world, collected by various researchers.
    What I found is that I have very close matches with Aromanians from Stip, Macedonia and Dukasi, Albania:


    forum image hosting


    I have also uploaded my VCF file to YFULL and I am assigned as YF12612 and on the Y-tree as Y16729*.
    I am not an Aromanian myself, however these close matches with Aromanians make me think that there is a possible Aromanian connection when it comes to my paternal line.
    Also there is a family story that my paternal line originates somewhere more to the west in the Balkans as they came to the place where I am from, with some eastward migrations that occurred during the time of the Ottoman empire.
    This coincides well with my match having origins from the Korce county in Albania!

    So my question is, is my subclade, which right now is found in only one Bulgarian and me in the Balkans, in the British isles and the Persian gulf, possible Aromanian linage?
    Keep in mind that I don't cluster with the Bulgarian nor with the British or the Persian gulf branch but I form my own branch, probably together with my 67 str markers match who hasn't tested for deep subclade!
    This person is from the city of Korça or from villages?

  12. #462
    Regular Member Dibran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Hi Dibran,

    After you type your values manually, press on "Add" and choose minimal haplotype.
    Than further down, you will see a map with your close matches...
    Thank you! I got it to work. Do you know how close this is? Judging by my matches in Columbia, Spain and Africa I would say Vandals/Goths could be possible. Here it is. Closest match is from Albania(no region listed). DYS393 had a value of 13.c however it returned an error when I tried entering .c, so I just entered 13 instead. Idk if that screws up the assignment.





  13. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Hi Dibran,

    After you type your values manually, press on "Add" and choose minimal haplotype.
    Than further down, you will see a map with your close matches...
    Entered some values incorrectly. Heres the actual result

    Heres the accurate one. Just the Albanian and German matches my STR values. Could still be Goth.












  14. #464
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    This person is from the city of Korça or from villages?
    That person has origin from the village of Hochisht in Korca county!

  15. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Entered some values incorrectly. Heres the actual result
    Heres the accurate one. Just the Albanian and German matches my STR values. Could still be Goth.



    Your branch is very rare, as it is mine.
    We are rare examples!

  16. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Your branch is very rare, as it is mine.
    We are rare examples!
    It appears so. I wonder who this Albanian match is. No FTDNA Albanian matches or even Yfull. I had to test my Albanian match from YSEQ to find our founder effect.

  17. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leka View Post
    Probably true for some of them, but most certainly not all. Good part were probably Latinized locals, Thracians, Illyrians etc - and they don't seem to be homogeneous either, which perfectly illustrates their divers origins to my opinion. Aromanians from Albania for example that have been tested thus far, from Dukas and Andon Poci, from the Bosch et al study, don't seem to show any affinity to other Aromanian groups from other regions. They in fact seem quite similar to Albanians, specifically Tosks who they live amongst, with their BY611 and J2b2 clusters.
    I agree with you, they certainly have native linage as well, however my point was how did they emerged.
    As I said, they probably evolved from certain groups of Roman legionnaires and colonizers who were spreading the Latin culture and language around thus assimilating locals as well.

    About the Bosh et al study, yes I have seen it, however those that are tested only have 17 - 18 markers haplotype and are shown as J2 or R1b, which is not very certain what subclade further down the line is...
    If there is more J2a among their lineages, I would say that is of Roman origin because unlike the aegean Greeks who are also rich in J2a, Vlachs have to do more with the former rather than the later!

    The same applies for R1b!

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    Balto-Thracian

    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    It appears so. I wonder who this Albanian match is. No FTDNA Albanian matches or even Yfull. I had to test my Albanian match from YSEQ to find our founder effect.
    This explains strong Celtic-Germanic-Baltic influence on Albanian language and also sheds light on the Albanian - Dacian - Vlach connection.
    Depends on age. Could be Getae (SamoGetae TyraGetae,..), Dacian (most melt into Goths and Slavs), Celto-Germanic Bastarnae (500 years NE of Dacians, melt into Ostrogoths and Antes) Celto - Dacian Anartes (NW Dacia) or even Vlach.
    11 Century Nestor Chronicles - by 893 placed North Vlachs (that earlier had driven Slavs to the North), on the way of the Magyars' crossing from NW of Black Sea, through North Carpathians, into Pannonia.
    12 Century Hungarian Chronicles also detected Vlachs along Slavs and Bulgars in Pannonian plane and North Carpathian, around 900 AD; 'Bulgars, Slavs and Vlach - Roman Shepherds'.

    As for Antes hypothesis, Procopius and Jordanes place Antes in alliance with Huns, Slavs and Bulgars, a 4th independent political entity, in an alliance of 7 tribes, led by rulers of Baltic, Thracian, Gothic and Iranian names. Like Boz, Dabragezas, Idariz, Musochios, Kelagast, Ardagast, Pirogast) and record several Antes raids against Roman enemies, Ostrogoths and Sclavenes (with whom where in conflict).

    By 612 Antes were defeated by Avars and is no coincidence that the very same year 612, their Latin patrons, the Eastern Roman Empire, is taken over by Greeks. A Greek world that never had previous influence above the South Balkans.
    This unleashed what is called the great 'Slavic' migration into Balkans, consisting of Avars, Antes, Iranian Sorbs and Croats since the ecosystem of Roman power, that for several hundred years crushed multiple migratory waves, was suddenly reduced to the world of Greeks. It took Byzantines 100s of years to reestablish control over Balkans, but, by that time, new Balkan ethnicities emerged and were sedimented.
    Referring to great 'Slavic' migration into South Balkans and Thessaly, Kekaumenos spotted "Dacian and Bessi from above the Danube, that claimed revenge for lost lands" that settled in the areas of Thessaly and around. And assumingly other Antes were also considered part of the great Slavic migration by those who interpreted history of the areas in recent times.

    Archeology shows that first migratory wave was assimilated into indigenous population, only the second wave of west Slavs imposed the language that was fixed and spread through the adoption of OCS into Moravia, Bulgaria and Kievan Rus.

    Assumed Antes tribes were Drevelyans - in Pripet area, Dulebes - in Volhynia, Polans - South of Kiev, Severians - NE of Kiev, Tiberians - between Dnister and Prut, Ulachs - between Dnister and Dniper, White Croats - North of Carpathian in Galitia.

    Ulach obviously is the turanic form of Vlach, given by Huns, Avars, Bulgars, dissaperead in 612 and reappered 200 years later in the same area of Antes Ulachs, as Vlachs. Most of Antes tribes carry Balto-Thracian names - like D(T)revelyan, Dulebes or Latin names, like Tiberian, Severian, Volhin/Voloh/Volyn(by Slavs), Ulach(by Turks) and Iranic White Croats, settled over indigenous Dacian Carpi, Costoboci, Buri, Anartes.. in and above North Carpathians.

    Given all the facts is possible that at least part of todays Albanians were one of those Antes of Balto-Thracian origin;
    most probably shifted into Balkans around or after the 5h Century, with the Ostrogoths or as Antes, as Roman allies.
    were in the proximity of Latin Romans but not around Byzantine Greeks (after 612 East Roman Empire changed to Greek);
    were not within the area of Slavic expansion, like happened to be other Antes tribes, after Sclavenes, Moravian, Kievan Rus expanded over and imposed the language.

    Also important to note that Avar alliance brought into Central-East Europe what we know as White Huns,
    Alan Sorbs (in Silesia 540-630), Iranic Hrvat and if we look at the map, where they came from in the 6th Century,
    will notice that on their way from the East Caspian, through the South Caspian, White Huns - Avars brought Iranian Croats
    and from North East Caucasus the Alan Sorbs. Also notice that the Avar homeland is in East Caucasus,
    right along the land of Daghe - Dacian Arbanites. An area flooded with R1b - L23 and J2, just like Albania today.

  19. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlGreen View Post
    This explains strong Celtic-Germanic-Baltic influence on Albanian language and also sheds light on the Albanian - Dacian - Vlach connection.
    Depends on age. Could be Getae (SamoGetae TyraGetae,..), Dacian (most melt into Goths and Slavs), Celto-Germanic Bastarnae (500 years NE of Dacians, melt into Ostrogoths and Antes) Celto - Dacian Anartes (NW Dacia) or even Vlach.
    11 Century Nestor Chronicles - by 893 placed North Vlachs (that earlier had driven Slavs to the North), on the way of the Magyars' crossing from NW of Black Sea, through North Carpathians, into Pannonia.
    12 Century Hungarian Chronicles also detected Vlachs along Slavs and Bulgars in Pannonian plane and North Carpathian, around 900 AD; 'Bulgars, Slavs and Vlach - Roman Shepherds'.

    As for Antes hypothesis, Procopius and Jordanes place Antes in alliance with Huns, Slavs and Bulgars, a 4th independent political entity, in an alliance of 7 tribes, led by rulers of Baltic, Thracian, Gothic and Iranian names. Like Boz, Dabragezas, Idariz, Musochios, Kelagast, Ardagast, Pirogast) and record several Antes raids against Roman enemies, Ostrogoths and Sclavenes (with whom where in conflict).

    By 612 Antes were defeated by Avars and is no coincidence that the very same year 612, their Latin patrons, the Eastern Roman Empire, is taken over by Greeks. A Greek world that never had previous influence above the South Balkans.
    This unleashed what is called the great 'Slavic' migration into Balkans, consisting of Avars, Antes, Iranian Sorbs and Croats since the ecosystem of Roman power, that for several hundred years crushed multiple migratory waves, was suddenly reduced to the world of Greeks. It took Byzantines 100s of years to reestablish control over Balkans, but, by that time, new Balkan ethnicities emerged and were sedimented.
    Referring to great 'Slavic' migration into South Balkans and Thessaly, Kekaumenos spotted "Dacian and Bessi from above the Danube, that claimed revenge for lost lands" that settled in the areas of Thessaly and around. And assumingly other Antes were also considered part of the great Slavic migration by those who interpreted history of the areas in recent times.

    Archeology shows that first migratory wave was assimilated into indigenous population, only the second wave of west Slavs imposed the language that was fixed and spread through the adoption of OCS into Moravia, Bulgaria and Kievan Rus.

    Assumed Antes tribes were Drevelyans - in Pripet area, Dulebes - in Volhynia, Polans - South of Kiev, Severians - NE of Kiev, Tiberians - between Dnister and Prut, Ulachs - between Dnister and Dniper, White Croats - North of Carpathian in Galitia.

    Ulach obviously is the turanic form of Vlach, given by Huns, Avars, Bulgars, dissaperead in 612 and reappered 200 years later in the same area of Antes Ulachs, as Vlachs. Most of Antes tribes carry Balto-Thracian names - like D(T)revelyan, Dulebes or Latin names, like Tiberian, Severian, Volhin/Voloh/Volyn(by Slavs), Ulach(by Turks) and Iranic White Croats, settled over indigenous Dacian Carpi, Costoboci, Buri, Anartes.. in and above North Carpathians.

    Given all the facts is possible that at least part of todays Albanians were one of those Antes of Balto-Thracian origin;
    most probably shifted into Balkans around or after the 5h Century, with the Ostrogoths or as Antes, as Roman allies.
    were in the proximity of Latin Romans but not around Byzantine Greeks (after 612 East Roman Empire changed to Greek);
    were not within the area of Slavic expansion, like happened to be other Antes tribes, after Sclavenes, Moravian, Kievan Rus expanded over and imposed the language.

    Also important to note that Avar alliance brought into Central-East Europe what we know as White Huns,
    Alan Sorbs (in Silesia 540-630), Iranic Hrvat and if we look at the map, where they came from in the 6th Century,
    will notice that on their way from the East Caspian, through the South Caspian, White Huns - Avars brought Iranian Croats
    and from North East Caucasus the Alan Sorbs. Also notice that the Avar homeland is in East Caucasus,
    right along the land of Daghe - Dacian Arbanites. An area flooded with R1b - L23 and J2, just like Albania today.

    Your theory would explain the origin of some Vlachs but not all...
    The names "Volhynia" and "Ulach" certainly have something to do with Celtic people that were living in modern day Ukraine.
    Volhynia is located in North-Western Ukraine and just south of it, is located "Galicia", another term with Celtic origin.
    We find this name in Spain, Anatolia, Ukraine and other places where the Celts have settled.
    More over, the word Vlach, Wolka, is an exonym, given by the Slavic and Germanic people to their neighbors of Celtic origin.

    The thing with the Vlachs from the Southern Balkans is that they call themselves as Rrãmãnj, Armãnj, coming from the word "Roman", which means that they are identifying themselves as Romans or citizens of the Roman Empire, while the Celts from Galicia and Volhynia in Ukraine, were never citizens of the Roman Empire, nor did the Roman Empire ever had rule over those lands!

    However, there are some Vlachs in the Southern Balkans, also known as Meglen Vlachs, who only use the exonym "Vlachs" to describe themselves and these Vlachs are different than the Aromanians.
    Maybe there is some connection between these Meglen Vlachs and the Antes who came from Ukraine among whom were these Ulachs!
    Moreover, these Meglen Vlachs are located in the mountains just north of Thessalonikian plane, where these so called "Vlacho-Rynhini" have settled!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlGreen View Post
    This explains strong Celtic-Germanic-Baltic influence on Albanian language and also sheds light on the Albanian - Dacian - Vlach connection.
    Depends on age. Could be Getae (SamoGetae TyraGetae,..), Dacian (most melt into Goths and Slavs), Celto-Germanic Bastarnae (500 years NE of Dacians, melt into Ostrogoths and Antes) Celto - Dacian Anartes (NW Dacia) or even Vlach.
    11 Century Nestor Chronicles - by 893 placed North Vlachs (that earlier had driven Slavs to the North), on the way of the Magyars' crossing from NW of Black Sea, through North Carpathians, into Pannonia.
    12 Century Hungarian Chronicles also detected Vlachs along Slavs and Bulgars in Pannonian plane and North Carpathian, around 900 AD; 'Bulgars, Slavs and Vlach - Roman Shepherds'.

    As for Antes hypothesis, Procopius and Jordanes place Antes in alliance with Huns, Slavs and Bulgars, a 4th independent political entity, in an alliance of 7 tribes, led by rulers of Baltic, Thracian, Gothic and Iranian names. Like Boz, Dabragezas, Idariz, Musochios, Kelagast, Ardagast, Pirogast) and record several Antes raids against Roman enemies, Ostrogoths and Sclavenes (with whom where in conflict).

    By 612 Antes were defeated by Avars and is no coincidence that the very same year 612, their Latin patrons, the Eastern Roman Empire, is taken over by Greeks. A Greek world that never had previous influence above the South Balkans.
    This unleashed what is called the great 'Slavic' migration into Balkans, consisting of Avars, Antes, Iranian Sorbs and Croats since the ecosystem of Roman power, that for several hundred years crushed multiple migratory waves, was suddenly reduced to the world of Greeks. It took Byzantines 100s of years to reestablish control over Balkans, but, by that time, new Balkan ethnicities emerged and were sedimented.
    Referring to great 'Slavic' migration into South Balkans and Thessaly, Kekaumenos spotted "Dacian and Bessi from above the Danube, that claimed revenge for lost lands" that settled in the areas of Thessaly and around. And assumingly other Antes were also considered part of the great Slavic migration by those who interpreted history of the areas in recent times.

    Archeology shows that first migratory wave was assimilated into indigenous population, only the second wave of west Slavs imposed the language that was fixed and spread through the adoption of OCS into Moravia, Bulgaria and Kievan Rus.

    Assumed Antes tribes were Drevelyans - in Pripet area, Dulebes - in Volhynia, Polans - South of Kiev, Severians - NE of Kiev, Tiberians - between Dnister and Prut, Ulachs - between Dnister and Dniper, White Croats - North of Carpathian in Galitia.

    Ulach obviously is the turanic form of Vlach, given by Huns, Avars, Bulgars, dissaperead in 612 and reappered 200 years later in the same area of Antes Ulachs, as Vlachs. Most of Antes tribes carry Balto-Thracian names - like D(T)revelyan, Dulebes or Latin names, like Tiberian, Severian, Volhin/Voloh/Volyn(by Slavs), Ulach(by Turks) and Iranic White Croats, settled over indigenous Dacian Carpi, Costoboci, Buri, Anartes.. in and above North Carpathians.

    Given all the facts is possible that at least part of todays Albanians were one of those Antes of Balto-Thracian origin;
    most probably shifted into Balkans around or after the 5h Century, with the Ostrogoths or as Antes, as Roman allies.
    were in the proximity of Latin Romans but not around Byzantine Greeks (after 612 East Roman Empire changed to Greek);
    were not within the area of Slavic expansion, like happened to be other Antes tribes, after Sclavenes, Moravian, Kievan Rus expanded over and imposed the language.

    Also important to note that Avar alliance brought into Central-East Europe what we know as White Huns,
    Alan Sorbs (in Silesia 540-630), Iranic Hrvat and if we look at the map, where they came from in the 6th Century,
    will notice that on their way from the East Caspian, through the South Caspian, White Huns - Avars brought Iranian Croats
    and from North East Caucasus the Alan Sorbs. Also notice that the Avar homeland is in East Caucasus,
    right along the land of Daghe - Dacian Arbanites. An area flooded with R1b - L23 and J2, just like Albania today.
    Excuse me, i am curious and i want to ask you, who are these people that you call in your post Daghe - Dacian Arbanites? Never heard about them and i can't find any information on internet.

  21. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Excuse me, i am curious and i want to ask you, who are these people that you call in your post Daghe - Dacian Arbanites? Never heard about them and i can't find any information on internet.
    Areas of current Daghestan and Azerbaijan were ran over by Turkic tribes, but in the past were settled by Arbanites, Daghe, Dai, Daoi.

    After 4th Century White Huns from East China settled in East Cucasus, along Arbanites and by the beginning of 6th Century a coalition of Caucasian tribes appeared North of Black Sea, claiming to be the famous Avars from across the Caspian Sea and demanded land in the Roman Empire. Meantime a Khazar embassy showed up to claim that the so called Avars are not what they pretend to be, but their slaves that ran away.
    So the Avar alliance settled about 540 AD in SW Ukraine, East and South Poland, from where they moved further South after, along Lombards, destroyed the Gepid (gothic) Kingdom and settled over Transylvania and Pannonia.

    So the Caucasian Arbanites were attested by multiple sources as Dache, Daghe, Dai, Daoi and the area is strikingly high in R1b-L23 and J2.

  22. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlGreen View Post
    Areas of current Daghestan and Azerbaijan were ran over by Turkic tribes, but in the past were settled by Arbanites, Daghe, Dai, Daoi.

    After 4th Century White Huns from East China settled in East Cucasus, along Arbanites and by the beginning of 6th Century a coalition of Caucasian tribes appeared North of Black Sea, claiming to be the famous Avars from across the Caspian Sea and demanded land in the Roman Empire. Meantime a Khazar embassy showed up to claim that the so called Avars are not what they pretend to be, but their slaves that ran away.
    So the Avar alliance settled about 540 AD in SW Ukraine, East and South Poland, from where they moved further South after, along Lombards, destroyed the Gepid (gothic) Kingdom and settled over Transylvania and Pannonia.

    So the Caucasian Arbanites were attested by multiple sources as Dache, Daghe, Dai, Daoi and the area is strikingly high in R1b-L23 and J2.
    I did some research on Google and Wikipedia but i could not find anything about these Caucasian Arbanites. Can you help me by quoting some of these multiple sources?

  23. #473
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    Vlachs

    I believe in documented history and facts but the Latinization theory doesn't stand, at least for part of the Vlachs, neither the "foreigner", "wanderer" attributes, given by neighbors with plenty of reasons to distance them from identity, land and history.

    By implying a Rome's Romanized 'wanderer', of no specific ethnic affiliation, serves well to distance Vlachs from ancestral space, implies a superficial presence, perfect to move or integrate within the ethnic polities that formed after the disintegration of Ottoman Empire.

    Vlachs, Welsh, Walloons and the populations that replaced them in certain areas, had more in common than being 'foreign wanderers', they also share a similar Neolithic MtDNA, higher than the average.

    Vlachs were/are Romans, but in a different way than is thought and perceived today.
    Vlachs belonged to the Roman Empire, but the Eastern Roman Empire, not to Rome and not to the Byzantine Greek.

    And following clues explain why:

    Ancient Romans were 1. Latins or Ramanes of Horatius; Ramanes -> Lydians -> Mysi -> Daco-Moesian
    2. Titiens or Sabins of Arminius.. Thracian tribes from West Anatolia and Peloponnese;
    3. Etruscans, Tyrrhenians - I-Europeanized Neolithic Farmers expelled from the Aegean by emerging Dorians.

    Between 1600-1200 BC Daco-Moesian - Mysi moved south from the area of Moesia, crossed into north west Anatolia.
    Anatolian confederation Assia were 22 Daco-Getian and Thracian tribes.
    About 2300 BC Akkadians gain access to Mediterranean by defeating in South West Anatolia the state of Arm, Armun, Rim;
    Ancient name of Armenia was Hayk - Hayastan, People were and are Hayastani, the language is Urartian, strong Iranian influence;
    About 1310 BC Nemesis was born in Ramnus (N Peloponnese), to a Highland mother;
    1260 Alaksandu (Paris) of Wilusha takes captive Helen and flees to Levant;
    Allies of the Northern Rim join Ilion (Troad); In Northern Rim were Paeonian - Moesian and Mygdonian - Thracian tribes.

    Kekaumenos states in Strategikon that Vlachs of Thessaly came along the great migration and were "Dacians from the Danube and Bessi, that claimed revenge for lost lands." Bessi's capital was Uscudama (Adrianople, Edirne today);

    Constantine the Great changed name of historical area of Moesia to Dacia Mediterranea, with the capital in his birthplace Naissus;
    Churches St Mary and Holy Spring were built by Empress Zoe and Leo the Thracian in the imperial residential complex 'Vlachaernae';
    By 550 AD Justinian sends Vlach Bessi to defend St Catherine Monasteries in Sinai;
    100 years later Arabs take over Sinai Pen. and most Bessi Vlachs return to the "homeland" they left from, which was North of Danube.
    In South Carpathian Mountains they built 'Sinaia'.

    Same Bessi, few centuries later founded Bessarabia, between Prut and Dniester;

    Around 1180 Anna Komnene explains in Alexiad that both sides of the Danube, up to the Haemus Mts are many wealthy Dacian and Thracian tribes and bellow the Haemus are Thracian and Macedonian tribes, and they are all Vlachs;

    About the Vlachs of Thessaly, Anna Komnene mentions the Vlachs of Mount Ossa that joined her father Alexios in the battle against the Normans;

    As for the Meglen-Vlachs and Aromuns, Benjamin of Tudela, Ramon Muntaner, Marino Samudo, "Chronicles of Morea" talk about Vlachia - Vallachia and identify a 'Great Vlachia' - 'Megali Vlachia' over all Thessaly "from the Pindus mountains in the west to the Aegean Sea in the east, and from the area of Mount Olympus and Servia in the north to the towns of Zetouni and Neopatras in the south."
    Tudela also identifies a 'Lower Vlachia' - over the areas of Dolopia, Aetolia, Acarnania and an 'Upper Valachia' in Epirus.
    By 1270s John Dukas of Thessaly (son of Michael of Epirus) that married the daughter of 'Vlach' ruler to inherit Thessaly, leads a small 'Latin' army of hundreds to administer a heavy defeat to 40,000 +navy Byzantine army, at the Battle of Neopatras (Thessaly Capital).

    By 1340s Stefan Dusan annexes Thessaly and Epirus and his latin title was" Imperator Raxie et Romanie, dispotus L'artae et Blachie comes."
    - Emperor of Rascia and Romania, despot of Arta and Count of Vlachia.

    As for the Northern Vlachs:
    Until 4th Century in Galicia and North Carpathian were Dacian Carpi, NE of Carpi were Dacian Costoboci and to NW of Carpi were Anartes - Celto-Italics assimilated by Dacians since 1st Century BC;

    Multiple sources attest that at least by 9 Century there were Vlachs above the North Carpathian, and is certain who were the "Vlachs - Roman Shepherds". Why would expect any other type of Vlachs, when the only 'Roman Shepherds' that should be in those areas, after Celto - Germanics moved west and were replaced by newly emerging 'Slavs', should be the Roman Vlachs?
    Is very plausible that the Huns arrival and defeat mustered all sorts of refugee seekers, incomers into the 'Roman' Balkans, that prior to 612 was a Latin speaking Empire from South Caucasus to the Danube.
    Once Huns were defeated newly emerged Gepid kingdom was Christianized by Bishop Ulfila, baptized in Constantinople, Kingdom that was an ally and under the umbrella of the Latin Eastern Roman Empire. The other side of the Carpathians, Antes, regardless of their ethnic background, were received into the Empire as allies and fought Constantinople's enemies for 200 years, until they were defeated by Avar alliance, the same year Greeks took over the Empire from the Latins.
    And, as a matter of fact, Dacians belong to Gava Cultures, which expanded around the North Carpathian, over the Pannonian plain and Transylvanian Plateau. Italics also spread from the same culture, so we talk about almost same type of people.
    Over the Centuries several Getae also spread between Dnieper and Carpathians, were pushed sides or received first waves of migrations;
    Samogetians were displaced from between Dnieper and Dniester and advanced on Bug into Poland. TyraGetae were also on Dniester and they also disappeared, at the Iranian, Gothic and Hun arrivals, possibly into Antes Ulachs, that were located later in the same area.

    The funerary stone of the Visigoth King explains all, what happened in the aftermath of Roman withdrawal from Dacia

    "REX GODORUM DACORUM GETORUM"
    Last edited by AlGreen; 22-07-18 at 05:23. Reason: was supposed to be a reply and missed a few things

  24. #474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    Your theory would explain the origin of some Vlachs but not all...
    The names "Volhynia" and "Ulach" certainly have something to do with Celtic people that were living in modern day Ukraine.
    Volhynia is located in North-Western Ukraine and just south of it, is located "Galicia", another term with Celtic origin.
    We find this name in Spain, Anatolia, Ukraine and other places where the Celts have settled.
    More over, the word Vlach, Wolka, is an exonym, given by the Slavic and Germanic people to their neighbors of Celtic origin.

    The thing with the Vlachs from the Southern Balkans is that they call themselves as Rrãmãnj, Armãnj, coming from the word "Roman", which means that they are identifying themselves as Romans or citizens of the Roman Empire, while the Celts from Galicia and Volhynia in Ukraine, were never citizens of the Roman Empire, nor did the Roman Empire ever had rule over those lands!

    However, there are some Vlachs in the Southern Balkans, also known as Meglen Vlachs, who only use the exonym "Vlachs" to describe themselves and these Vlachs are different than the Aromanians.
    Maybe there is some connection between these Meglen Vlachs and the Antes who came from Ukraine among whom were these Ulachs!
    Moreover, these Meglen Vlachs are located in the mountains just north of Thessalonikian plane, where these so called "Vlacho-Rynhini" have settled!
    Answered in a new one by mistake.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by AlGreen View Post
    Areas of current Daghestan and Azerbaijan were ran over by Turkic tribes, but in the past were settled by Arbanites, Daghe, Dai, Dao

    So the Caucasian Arbanites were attested by multiple sources as Dache, Daghe, Dai, Daoi and the area is strikingly high in R1b-L23 and J2.
    What are you smoking, bro? Pass it along, don’t be stingy.

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