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Thread: Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The higher frequency of R1b and J2 in South Greece is interesting because it makes the cradle of the Classical Greek Antiquity (Athens, Corinth, Sparta, Olympia...) closer to the Romans.


    Were you aware that the Sabines formed one of the three original tribes of Rome. The Sabines were from the Peloponnese (Laconia) and claimed Spartan descent.

    In the 6th century BC the Roman populace was originally made up of the Ramnes (Latins) represented by Horatius; the Titienses (Sabines) represented by Armenius, and the Luceres (Etruscans) represented by Lartius.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    However, if you insinuate that the Vlachs come from South Greece, then I have to disagree. Why would they speak Latin (then Aromanian) if they were from Greece, since Latin was never widely spoken in Greece even under the Roman occupation ? (actually it is the educated Romans who learnt Greek rather than the other way round)
    You are assuming the ancient Vlach spoke Latin first before the development of Aromanian. What makes you so sure they were native Latin speakers to begin with and not native Greek speakers?

    Aromanian is suggestive of a likely Greek people who originally spoke and wrote in Greek, lived alongside Romanian speakers, and formed a dialect of Romanian that was exclusively written in the Greek alphabet. The Romanians use the Latin alphabet and are known to have originally done so, unlike the Aromun.

    The original written form of Aromanian uses the Greek alphabet where in Romania and in Greece the Vlachs still ONLY use the Greek alphabet, refusing to use the Latin alphabet. This practice stretches to at least the 9th century where the earliest known Aromanian manuscripts bare testimony to the already well established Greek vocabulary and the Greek form used by the Vlachs.

    The attached thumbnail illustrates how the Vlach (Wallachia) States were cut off from the Byzantine Empire isolating them.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    You are assuming the ancient Vlach spoke Latin first before the development of Aromanian. What makes you so sure they were native Latin speakers to begin with and not native Greek speakers?
    How would they speak Aromanian is they didn't speak Latin before ? How would Aromanian even exist if there wasn't a isolated eastern group of Latin speakers whose language evolved separately from other Romance languages ?

    Aromanian is suggestive of a likely Greek people who originally spoke and wrote in Greek, lived alongside Romanian speakers, and formed a dialect of Romanian that was exclusively written in the Greek alphabet. The Romanians use the Latin alphabet and are known to have originally done so, unlike the Aromun.

    The original written form of Aromanian uses the Greek alphabet where in Romania and in Greece the Vlachs still ONLY use the Greek alphabet, refusing to use the Latin alphabet. This practice stretches to at least the 9th century where the earliest known Aromanian manuscripts bare testimony to the already well established Greek vocabulary and the Greek form used by the Vlachs.

    The attached thumbnail illustrates how the Vlach (Wallachia) States were cut off from the Byzantine Empire isolating them.
    They only use the Greek script because it was the most common script in the Byzantine Empire, even before the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Greek was the language of administration in all the Near East and Middle East since Alexander's conquest. Latin never replaced it when the Romans conquered those territories. The administration of Roman Greece, Anatolia, Syria or Egypt was always done in Greek (language and script), not in Latin. In this context it is not surprising that an isolated group of Latin speakers should use the Greek script. As for their genetic origins, the Vlachs are obviously dominant Greek-Albanian with the likely admixture of a Roman minority. If they were simply Greek, why on earth would they speak a Romance language and have more R1b than any other Greeks (even South Greeks and Cretans) ?
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    How would they speak Aromanian is they didn't speak Latin before ?
    There are numerous examples where a local language is modified by a foreign group who bring their culture into the mix. The Yiddish language is but one example where despite the language being classified as 'High German' it only has a Hebrew written form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    How would Aromanian even exist if there wasn't a isolated eastern group of Latin speakers whose language evolved separately from other Romance languages ?
    How would Aromanian even exist if there wasn't an isolated eastern group of Greek speakers whose language evolved separately from other Greeks being influenced by native Romanian speakers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    They only use the Greek script because it was the most common script in the Byzantine Empire, even before the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Greek was the language of administration in all the Near East and Middle East since Alexander's conquest. Latin never replaced it when the Romans conquered those territories. The administration of Roman Greece, Anatolia, Syria or Egypt was always done in Greek (language and script), not in Latin. In this context it is not surprising that an isolated group of Latin speakers should use the Greek script. As for their genetic origins, the Vlachs are obviously dominant Greek-Albanian with the likely admixture of a Roman minority.
    Actually the most common script in Romania was Cyrillic, not Greek. The Bulgarian Empire made sure of this since the 10th century. So the fact that they used the Greek alphabet and neither the Romanian Cyrillic nor Latin is suggestive that they were originally Greek. Remember that the Vlach continue to use the Greek alphabet in Romania, exclusively. It has been more than a 1000yrs since they were cut off by the Bulgarian Empire.

    Genetically the Vlach outside Greece correspond with South Greece. The lower R1b found in South Greece is hardly surprising as the Peloponnese was repopulated by Ibrahim Pasha in 1825 during the Greek War of Independence. Not to even mention 400yrs of Ottoman rule and the massacres on Crete.

    Albanian R1b has a different structure to the South Greek and Vlach R1b. There is an Albanian cluster that is common only in the Albanian R1b population. Similarly the J2 common in Albania is not of the predominantly J2a1b-M67 subclade found in the Greek and Vlach population. Besides the Arbareshe population in Calabria has about 3% J2.

    Semino et al. (2004)

    The Arbereshe sample analysed by Semino et al. (2004) lacks the typically Balkan J2-M12 chromosomes. If we interpret the Arbereshe sample as representative of the founding Albanian population, we may hypothesize that the J2 haplogroup was considerably less diffuse in the southern Balkans 5 centuries ago. In contrast, most of the haplotypes in the other clusters (i.e. Greek Calabrians) agree with the STR configuration given for the J2-M67 clade, with its sub-clade J2-M92 (Di Giacomo et al. 2004). It is unconvincing to attribute the rarity of J2 in the Arbereshe to random sampling or to the effect of genetic drift. So yes, the Vlach do appear to be Greek afterall, not Albanian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If they were simply Greek
    Wallachia (Vlahia) used by Romanians themselves, is a term derived from the Germanic 'walha' to describe non-Germanic speaking "foreigners". Similarly, in northwest Europe this gave rise to Wales and Wallonia. I don't suppose you really believe that the Vlach population was formed from the Roman incursions of 106AD. Such a small force of Roman mercenaries, all deciding to use Greek and bringing a lot of J2 with them. How funny is that!
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 18-08-11 at 20:12.

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    I would like to say some facts that most people are not aware or most of them didn't pay attention on that...

    Have you ever asked yourself why for example region in Romania, called Wallachia is called wallachia? or why WALES is called WALES in Britain? Or why name VALONS for people in Belgium? and many other similar names for places in Europe, well there is connection between that names, but not with that people, and it is connected to romans, or it's better to say: roman citizens of roman empire.

    Well you see, barbarian people (germans and slavs) after fall of western roman empire, when migrating to once roman provinces, they found there a autohtone roman society, not ROMANS as romans from region LAZIO, but ex-roman citizens, means ROMANS by culture and civilization, means much advanced than slavs and german conqurers were...

    When they encountered them, before they mixed with them, they made a names for them, and names were what we say in serbia and croatia: VLAH, or as in Romania WALLACHIA, or as in Britain WALES, or as in BELGIUM Valons... THAT TERM VLAH, was term for autohtone advanced ROMAN society after fall of western roman empire.

    For example, here in croatian region DALMATIA, once roman province Dalmatia, when croats/slavs came here, they settled in area around big cities at dalmatian coasts... in that cities lived roman people, even after fall of the empire, slavs named them VLAHS or wallachians, soon after that, around late 7 and 8 century slavs/croats started to MIXED with that romans/vlahs, and becouse of that, today dalmatian croats, and croats from herzegovina, have still 60% of I2a2 haplogroup (highest in Europe), which is reminder on that mixing with autohtone romanized/roman society of roman empire... Don't get me wrong, I2a2 is not roman haplogroup, but haplogroup of that particular roman autohtone citizens of roman province Dalmatia...

    I hope you undarstand what I'm talking about... similar happenings happened in rest of Europe, on areas of ex-roman empire...such was Wales, Valonians, Wallachians etc... With exception of Wallachia becouse Wallachians kept their Roman language even today, and isn it interesting that Polish name for Italy is Wlochy? I hope you get the point :)

    In Dalmatia, latin Dalmatian language died 1898, and that was not long time ago... 1898 died the last speaker of latin dalmatian language on Island Krk in Croatia... Today in Dalmatia we have reverse situation than in 8 century, today citizens from coastal cities in Dalmatia call WLACHS/VLAHS people in continental dalmatia...

    In today Serbia, you have people who even today for their nationality place name: WLACHS/VLAHS, but difference between for example serbian wlachs (who declared themselfs in nationality as WLACHS), and dalmatian Wlachs, or Welsh, or valons, is that dalmatian wlachs are CROATS today, and welsh wlachs are WELSH today, or valon wlachs are VALONS today... they've lost their sence for nationality as wlachs (roman autohtone society) long long time ago... and there is no genetical connection between croat wlachs and serbian wlachs, or croat wlachs with welsh wlachs or valons etc...

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Here is some more interesting info from Wiki:

    Wlah

    The word Vlach is ultimately of Germanic origin, from the word Walha, "foreigner", "stranger", a name used by ancient Germanic peoples to refer to Romance-speaking and Celtic neighbours. As such, it shares its history with several ethnic names all across Europe, including the Welsh and Walloons.[4] Slavic people initially used the name Vlachs when referring to Romanic people in general. Later on, the meaning became narrower or just different. For example, Italy is called Włochy in Polish

    The term Vlach is originally an exonym. All the Vlach groups used various words derived from romanus to refer to themselves: Români, Rumâni, Rumâri, Aromâni, Arumâni etc. (note: the Megleno-Romanians nowadays call themselves "Vlaşi", but historically called themselves "Rămâni"[citation needed]; The Istro-Romanians also have adopted the names Vlaşi, but still use Rumâni and Rumâri to refer to themselves).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs


    I found the above info looking for origin of people for Galicja/Galicia/Halicja. This region was possibly populated by Vlahs for some time, as it is bordering with Moldavia where they lived too.
    I was also trying to find some connection with Celts, because of close similarity to Iberian Galicia, but there wasn't much to connect.
    Here is what I've found:

    Ruthene dialects


    Several distinct dialects of the East Slavic branch are spoken in the Carpathian highlands and are called Ruthene (in German) or Rusyn (in Russian). These territories were subject to lengthy arguments between Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia and Russia for over a thousand years, today they are Ukrainian, though a part of Ruthene people live also in Slovakia, Romania and Hungary. Their culture is quite original, as well as their tongue which is usually subdivided into three dialects: Lemko, Bojko, and Hutsul.
    The Ruthene language is part of the southwestern group of Ukrainian Ruthene dialects, which include Bojkian, Transcarpathian (Highlander or Verchovyna), Sjan (northeast of the Lemko Region), and Hutsul. The Lemko dialects are very similar to those on the southern slopes of the mountains (the Presov Region), also considered Ruthene dialects.
    The Lemko dialects are characterized (and distinguishable from the Ukrainian language) by fixed stress on the penultimate syllable of words (as in Polish and eastern Slovak dialects, in contrast to movable stress in all other East Slavic languages); retention of the distinct vowel bl (y). Some verb conjugations are of the Slovak and Polish forms. Lemko dialects contain many unique forms, as well as words of Polish, Slovak, and even German or Hungarian origin.
    http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/slav/ruthene.html

    http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/slav/sla.html

    This is polish highlander/goral from Galicja in ethnic costume, left. On right Portuguese Galician:

    med.jpgbogactwo1.jpg

    Also there might be some similarity to highlanders from Albania:
    Pants and a vest.
    Clothing_of_Albania_003.jpg

    I have no idea what to think about this, just pointing some similarities, lol.

  6. #31
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    there is a big difference among Aromani kai wallachians,

    vlach in Aromani comes from the word Villachians ->.... Vlachians and means villagers,
    there 4-5 kinds of Aromani,

    the kutsuk Vlachs which Italy consider them Italians and made them a kingdom in WW2
    comes from turkish word and means small
    the Moschopolis Vlachs in Epirus and Albania and some parts of Fyrom
    the Moesian Vlachs with their Famous Hero Georgakis Olympios who started Greek revolt in Ias Romania,
    the low Makedonia Vlachs
    the south Mountain Vlachs of Greece
    the Vlachs of East Bulgaria,
    The Vlachs of ex south Yugoslavia for wich I know little things,

    I don't know about the Vlachs Genes, but even they say that are 3 major Groups,
    the Vlachs that come from Roman Villas in Greece, farmers in Roman houses and plantations,
    the Vlachs around East Thrace, which were Latin Speakers of Byzantine Empire,
    the Vlachs that had Rulling positions in Moesia Romania,

    I repeat I don't know about the ex-Yugoslavia Vlachs,

    their Origin could Be either Local Balcanic (Greeks -Thracians etc) who were Latinised
    or from Italy following Senators that gain properties in Balkans,
    remember that first Byzantine emperors were latin speakers
    and Con/polis was named New Rome,

    their connection with Wallachians I believe is small
    words like Walha Valhalla and william Wallace are not romano-balcanic, but Northern
    at least the south Aromani you may here the elder call them selves V(i)llachoi meaning the one who live in Villas (villages)

    It seems like the officers of Latin speaking people who lived in cities learn the Greek language like the famous Families of Rulers in Moldo-wallachia but the villagers don't until the late centuries,

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Hi there,
    sorry for english, my grand-grand father was coming from Romania, speaking that dialect, Vlahika, that most of our people are still speaking. Very strong language, as far concern the people were nomads, which means that were moving many times during Spring-Summer and Fall in order to feed their animals.
    However, he found Papigo, to stay and get his family to stay there, I have never got the chance to learn that language

    Regards
    Grigoris

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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfere40 View Post
    Hi there,
    sorry for english, my grand-grand father was coming from Romania, speaking that dialect, Vlahika, that most of our people are still speaking. Very strong language, as far concern the people were nomads, which means that were moving many times during Spring-Summer and Fall in order to feed their animals.
    However, he found Papigo, to stay and get his family to stay there, I have never got the chance to learn that language

    Regards
    Grigoris
    there are many kinds of Villachi -βλαχοι
    the term comes from Latin word for village compare βιλλα -βιγλια a kind of Latin house keeping and village,
    the word gets apokope αποκοπη Vilachi -i -> Vlach

    there many kind of Vlachs as also many dialects
    major in Greece are
    the Moesian Vlachs -Μοσιο 'η μοσχο Βλαχοι
    the moschopolis Vlachs - Arbanto-Vlachs αρβαντοβλαχοι
    the thettalian Vlachs Kutsuk Vlachs Κουτσο-βλαχοι
    are the biggest in Greece
    smaller spots are
    the Vlachs of Nymfaion Nedeskes
    the vlachs of Peloponese
    the vlachs of south Pindus
    Vlachs exist in all Balkanic countries, and have no connection with Wallachia but with roman Villas

    Vlachika is mostly Dialects of Latin which according area fits with the local sounds and words,
    most relative language lingua franca is romanian as spoken in south East romania

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Cooper View Post
    I would like to say some facts that most people are not aware or most of them didn't pay attention on that...

    Have you ever asked yourself why for example region in Romania, called Wallachia is called wallachia? or why WALES is called WALES in Britain? Or why name VALONS for people in Belgium? and many other similar names for places in Europe, well there is connection between that names, but not with that people, and it is connected to romans, or it's better to say: roman citizens of roman empire.

    Well you see, barbarian people (germans and slavs) after fall of western roman empire, when migrating to once roman provinces, they found there a autohtone roman society, not ROMANS as romans from region LAZIO, but ex-roman citizens, means ROMANS by culture and civilization, means much advanced than slavs and german conqurers were...

    When they encountered them, before they mixed with them, they made a names for them, and names were what we say in serbia and croatia: VLAH, or as in Romania WALLACHIA, or as in Britain WALES, or as in BELGIUM Valons... THAT TERM VLAH, was term for autohtone advanced ROMAN society after fall of western roman empire.

    For example, here in croatian region DALMATIA, once roman province Dalmatia, when croats/slavs came here, they settled in area around big cities at dalmatian coasts... in that cities lived roman people, even after fall of the empire, slavs named them VLAHS or wallachians, soon after that, around late 7 and 8 century slavs/croats started to MIXED with that romans/vlahs, and becouse of that, today dalmatian croats, and croats from herzegovina, have still 60% of I2a2 haplogroup (highest in Europe), which is reminder on that mixing with autohtone romanized/roman society of roman empire... Don't get me wrong, I2a2 is not roman haplogroup, but haplogroup of that particular roman autohtone citizens of roman province Dalmatia...

    I hope you undarstand what I'm talking about... similar happenings happened in rest of Europe, on areas of ex-roman empire...such was Wales, Valonians, Wallachians etc... With exception of Wallachia becouse Wallachians kept their Roman language even today, and isn it interesting that Polish name for Italy is Wlochy? I hope you get the point :)

    In Dalmatia, latin Dalmatian language died 1898, and that was not long time ago... 1898 died the last speaker of latin dalmatian language on Island Krk in Croatia... Today in Dalmatia we have reverse situation than in 8 century, today citizens from coastal cities in Dalmatia call WLACHS/VLAHS people in continental dalmatia...

    In today Serbia, you have people who even today for their nationality place name: WLACHS/VLAHS, but difference between for example serbian wlachs (who declared themselfs in nationality as WLACHS), and dalmatian Wlachs, or Welsh, or valons, is that dalmatian wlachs are CROATS today, and welsh wlachs are WELSH today, or valon wlachs are VALONS today... they've lost their sence for nationality as wlachs (roman autohtone society) long long time ago... and there is no genetical connection between croat wlachs and serbian wlachs, or croat wlachs with welsh wlachs or valons etc...
    exactly.
    Vlach is not about origin from single tribe. it is about many different unrelated people who were at some point in time converted to citizens of Roman empire...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    exactly.
    Vlach is not about origin from single tribe. it is about many different unrelated people who were at some point in time converted to citizens of Roman empire...
    The common point of "Walach"/"Walloon"/"Welsh" is not so much about being Roman citizens, but being foreigners to the Germanic tribes. Only that the meaning shifted over time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The common point of "Walach"/"Walloon"/"Welsh" is not so much about being Roman citizens, but being foreigners to the Germanic tribes. Only that the meaning shifted over time.
    i am focused on Walach/Vlah... in south east and central europe (Greece, ex-Yugoslavia, Albania, Slovakia) it is about local speakers of language derived from latin...
    russian primary chronicle refer to Roman empire as Vlakhs...


    can you elaborate the reasoning that claims that in Germanic languages it was originally about foreigners in general and not about speakers of Romance languages in particular...
    Last edited by how yes no 3; 26-03-12 at 22:33.

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    I heard of a theory that states that:
    Vlachs were pastoralist Romans (Roman citizens) of the Balkans who avoided being assimilated by the Slavs, due to their place of inhabitance being mostly limited to the mountains (Dinarid alps). They afterwards migrated to Romania which was underpopulated due to extermination by the Romans.

    This would explain why so many Romanians have surnames which have to do with a pastoralist lifestyle. Example: Ciobanu

    Source of the theory: http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm

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    "in the lands north of the lower Danube we do not find any inherited Latin toponyms: not a single name of a Roman town or any other kind of settlement was preserved. The most obvious explanation of this is that the Slavs did not find Latin-speaking inhabitants when they migrated to these territories in the 6th-7th centuries."

    "
    Indeed, the Dacians have nothing or very little to do with modern Romanians and their language was not related at all with Latin ‒ there is no possible cultural or ethnic continuity between the Dacians and the Romans, and even if it was, it would be irrelevant with regards to the historic rights over Transylvania. The Vlach were not Dacians, but an Illyric people, originated in the south-western Balkans by the south-eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea ‒ namely, the present-day Albania and Slavic Macedonia."

    "
    Historical records and archaeological finds show overwhelming evidence that by that time and until the 12th century c.e., the Vlach people, that spoke Romanian language and had Romanian culture and religious tradition, were dwelling in another place: in southern Illyria, from where the majority of them were slowly moving towards present-day Romania through a long-lasting sojourn in Bulgaria."

    "
    It was in the 11th century c.e. that the Vlach language split into the present-day Romanian and Aromanian. The first group crossed the Danube and settled in Cumania, then re-named Walachia after them. The earliest records of their presence in Transylvania do not precede the 13th century c.e, when Romanians were offered asylum by the Hungarian Kingdom after the Turks seized Walachia."

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    @Templar


    Sounds like Hungarian cheap propaganda.
    Scottish people are shepherds.Are they Vlahs too?
    You don't have Hong-Kong like density in Albania.
    Magyar chronicle says that when they entered Hungary they encountered Slavs and Vlahs.Anonymous-"Slavi, Bulgarii, et Blachi ac pastores Romanorum."
    Romanian and Slavic languages both expanded as lingua franca(through Christianity) explaining why these languages are remarcably homogenous.



    Why Regalianus claimed that he is descendant of Dacian king Decebalus?
    The local people elected him Roman Emperor.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regalianus



    So what do you think about Galerius?
    Was he nuts or many Dacians lived in the Roman Empire?

    "Whatever, by the laws of war, conquerors had done to the conquered, the like did this man presume to perpetrate against Romans and the subjects of Rome, because his forefathers had been made liable to a like tax imposed by the victorious Trajan, as a penalty on the Dacians for their frequent rebellions."
    "Long ago, indeed, and at the very time of his obtaining sovereign power, he had avowed himself the enemy of the Roman name; and he proposed that the empire should be called, not the Roman, but the Dacian empire."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galerius


    Vulgar Latin "daca"-Dacian knife

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?...earchmode=none

    http://www.hadrians-wall.org/page.as...ald-Roman-Fort

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    Sounds like Hungarian cheap propaganda.
    I never said I supported the theory :P. Just said it was interesting and maybe even plausible.

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    Hi,
    very interesting theory from all of you, but how do you think I can seek my roots, in Romania?

    Grigoris

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfere40 View Post
    Hi,
    very interesting theory from all of you, but how do you think I can seek my roots, in Romania?

    Grigoris

    That is because you are not aromani Vlach, But romanian who thinks he is Vlach,

    Ειναι απλο, ρωτα ολουσ τους τοπικους συνδεσμους Βλαχοφωνων να σου πουν, οχι μονο στην Ελλαδα αλλα σε ολα τα βαλκανια.
    το αν ο παππουσ ηταν ρουμανος δεν σημαινει οτι ηταν Βλαχος,
    η γλωσσικη συγγενεια δεν σημαινει καταγωγη


    οποιος ξερει Λατινικα δεν σημαινει οτι ειναι Βλαχος.


    Everyone who knows Latin does not mean he is a Vlach

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    The Vlachs and Aromanians are an interesting group. I think they do represent the original inhabitants of the Balkan region, as well as other people they absorbed. It's possible they and Romanians were closer together at one point, because their language is believed not to have split much earlier than a thousand years ago. There was probably a proto-Vlach/Romanian area on both sides of the Danube in southwestern Romanian and northeastern Serbia, while some say it was further south around Albania/Illyria. It's possible they split and went different ways, with Daco-Romanians expanding north and assimilating more Slavic peoples who already lived there, such as in northern Transylvania and Moldova, while Aromanians went south and absorbed Greek influences. But we don't know for sure. Some studies I've seen put the Vlachs as somewhat distinct from their neighbors genetically. I've also noticed some similarities with them and the Sarakatsani people of Greece, who are sometimes linked with Thracians.

    I know J is important in many Vlach populations, and I thought R1a was relatively low, while R1b was higher. Guess it depends on the region.
    Btw is E1b1b necessarily proven to be Illyrian and such? Given it's origins?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    I think the bulk of albanian history is a mystery, they have no written records. Outside sources are very sparse, I do not proclaim them to be illyrians either, not enough info to declare anything as fact. I think they obviously have some illyrian in them but so does every other balkan nation.

    I have heard wild claims from nationalists there that are laughable at best. I think anything related to any balkan countries needs to have various sources from more then one country to be verified due to everyone hating everyone else there.
    Some Illyrian?You are a funny guy.Most of you Balkan Slavs are the most annoying groups in internet.You never fail to bring up this Illyrian thing among Albanians.Albanians should in no way be compared to Balkan Slavs in term of native ancestry.Reasons?We speak a Paleo-Balkan language.Preservance of language means better preservance of genes too.Speaking about myths.Isn't your people who have spread the nonsense that I2a2-Din was the major Illyrian haplogroup and 10 thousand years old in Balkans(which obviously reflects the Slavic expansion) and similar bullshit propaganda?Ofcourse yes but you are pointing the finger toward Albanians because of your huge inferiority complexes.

    Albanians being descendants of Illyrians is not based on myths but on facts.Despite the whole genetic linguistic and historical facts you still are stubborn to aknowledge this.Albanians derive their name from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi or it's original name being Arber(meaning gold makers in Albanian).Not to mentions dozens of other evidences but it will be offtopic and you would not aknowledge anyway.






    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    The amount of haplogroup differentiation between Balkan populations is insignificant making the study of specific subclades most useful. If Albanians are in fact predominantly Illyrian then E1b1b (27.5% in Albanians) may indicate Illyrian descent as we find high frequencies of this marker in all Balkan peoples even Bulgarians (16%) whom we know migrated to the Balkans in the 6th century AD. The highest frequencies are found along the Western side of the Balkan peninsular. The highest frequency of E1b1b is found in central Greece (29.5%) with southern Greece not far off (27%). However, this marker is found in 23% of modern Macedonians and 20.5% of modern Serbs. The East has markedly less E1b1b which makes sense if you look at where ancient Illyrian settlements were concentrated.

    Dienekes calculated the relative ages of E1b1b in various Balkan communities:

    N Age (25y/gen) Age (30y/gen)
    Nea Nikomedeia 8 149 1725 BC 2470 BC
    Sesklo/Dimini 20 71 225 AD 130 BC
    Lerna Franchthi 20 120 1000 BC 1600 BC
    Crete 13 68 300 AD 40 BC
    Haplozone 103 134 1350 BC 2020 BC
    Aromuns (12) 32 71 225 AD 130 BC
    Aromuns (8) 32 73 175 AD 190 BC
    Slavomacedonians (12) 13 51 725 AD 470 AD
    Slavomacedonians (8) 13 59 525 AD 230 AD
    Albanians (12) 9 70 250 AD 100 BC
    Albanians (8) 9 59 525 AD 230 AD


    From these findings it would appear the E1b1b is a relatively young Albanian marker and was first established in the region of Central Macedonia in Greece.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...explained.html



    The hotspot of E1b1b in Albanians from Kosova and Albania could well be as a consequence of genetic drift from a relatively recent introduction into the area (c.100BC) from ancient Macedonia, Greece.
    All of EV13 in Balkans is due to genetic drift.The paragroup of EV13 EM78* was found among two Albanians so them being derived from Greeks is Dienekes bullshit just as his Anatolian hypothesis of Indo-European origins.

    EV13 was found in Neolithic Spain i guess Greeks were responsible for it's spread there lol.

    The spread of EV13 in Balkans reflects a Western Balkans to Eastern Balkans spread.The highest diversity in one study was found in Bosnia.So much of your Greek EV13.

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    so them being derived from Greeks is Dienekes bullshit just as his Anatolian hypothesis of Indo-European origins.
    R1b Indo-Europeans DID come from Anatolia, while R1a ones came from the Central Asian Steppe/Eastern Ukraine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    Some Illyrian?You are a funny guy.Most of you Balkan Slavs are the most annoying groups in internet.You never fail to bring up this Illyrian thing among Albanians.Albanians should in no way be compared to Balkan Slavs in term of native ancestry.Reasons?We speak a Paleo-Balkan language.Preservance of language means better preservance of genes too.Speaking about myths.Isn't your people who have spread the nonsense that I2a2-Din was the major Illyrian haplogroup and 10 thousand years old in Balkans(which obviously reflects the Slavic expansion) and similar bullshit propaganda?Ofcourse yes but you are pointing the finger toward Albanians because of your huge inferiority complexes.

    Albanians being descendants of Illyrians is not based on myths but on facts.Despite the whole genetic linguistic and historical facts you still are stubborn to aknowledge this.Albanians derive their name from the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi or it's original name being Arber(meaning gold makers in Albanian).Not to mentions dozens of other evidences but it will be offtopic and you would not aknowledge anyway.








    All of EV13 in Balkans is due to genetic drift.The paragroup of EV13 EM78* was found among two Albanians so them being derived from Greeks is Dienekes bullshit just as his Anatolian hypothesis of Indo-European origins.

    EV13 was found in Neolithic Spain i guess Greeks were responsible for it's spread there lol.

    The spread of EV13 in Balkans reflects a Western Balkans to Eastern Balkans spread.The highest diversity in one study was found in Bosnia.So much of your Greek EV13.

    I recently read some notes/books, that the Albanians with their strong HG E ( which is an african hg) originated from a mix of african and phoenician people, these where called Libby-Phoenicians and they where the elite of hannibals armies. They moved to the shores of albania in small numbers and mixed with the ruling macedonian-epirote people under Philip V of Macedonia.
    Albanian is the strangest Indo European language because it doesn't share the word snow with any other Indo European language. That means Albanians didn't come from Caspian Sea with other Indo European tribes but from Phoenician shores.

    The oldest Phoenician colony were along Albanian shores:
    Aulon-a from Elon or Elion (Phoenician) A name of the sun, recognized as one of the highest active deities or cosmic energies by the Phoenicians; rendered in Greek as 'Elioun. The Hebrew form of this word is found in the Bible in the phrase 'El `elyon, "the God or Divinity on high."
    - Elyssium, Elysium from Tyrian princess Elissar or Elyssa (Dido in Greek).
    - Foinike from Phoenician
    - Lissus from Phoenician colony in Lixus
    - Albanian Tosk dialect from Phoenician colony in Toscanos


    Leptis Magna
    An important Phoenician city, Leptis Magna was later conquered by the Romans and is now an impressive archaeological site near Tripoli.
    ( origin of the libby-phoenicians, east of modern tripoli )


    Besides I believe the illyrians where named illyrians due to a geographical area and where not one race. There languages and genes where different to each other.
    - The albanians name was only first used in 150AD, so either they hid in the mountains unseen for 1000 years or they migrated into the balkans late

    Now , do I believe that albanians came from the libyan shores - well no ..............
    do i beleive they originated in albania - No
    do I believe they where illyrian - no
    Since the majority of albanins are E hg, where did they come - this is the mistery

    bold text is copied from elsewhere
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    ^lol.EV-13 were either late Mesolithic people or early Neolithic farmers.EV-13 were not proto Illyrians or proto-Albanian people they were early Balkan people who got assimilated from proto-Illyrians who came from Central Europe.Also,EV-13 makes 45% of overall Albanian Y-DNA among Albanians in Kosovo and ~30% among Albanians from Albania.So EV13=/=Albanian since R1b and J2b2 are major Albanian haplogroups too,the R1b being more present in Kosovo ranging from 21-25% while J2 being more present in Albania.Ev13 is just the most common because of founder effect like in all Balkan countries.

    The rest of your post is total crap and unscientific.

    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    R1b Indo-Europeans DID come from Anatolia, while R1a ones came from the Central Asian Steppe/Eastern Ukraine.
    R1b did come from Anatolia but they were not Proto Indo-European for sure.It seems that this paternal lineage is connected with Bell Beaker culture which was late Neolithic comer and started from Southern Portugal.R1b or more specifically some subclades of R1b got Indo-Europeanized in Central Europe where they also acquired more Northern autosomal admix through swapping women with Corded Ware people.

    Maybe R1b U152 was the Italic-Celtic marker?


    http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/file.php...c_1_fig008.jpg

    http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhtha...S28-poE-CT.png

    Apparently R1b U152 is most diverse in Western Poland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    ^lol.EV-13 were either late Mesolithic people or early Neolithic farmers.EV-13 were not proto Illyrians or proto-Albanian people they were early Balkan people who got assimilated from proto-Illyrians who came from Central Europe.Also,EV-13 makes 45% of overall Albanian Y-DNA among Albanians in Kosovo and ~30% among Albanians from Albania.So EV13=/=Albanian since R1b and J2b2 are major Albanian haplogroups too,the R1b being more present in Kosovo ranging from 21-25% while J2 being more present in Albania.Ev13 is just the most common because of founder effect like in all Balkan countries.

    The rest of your post is total crap and unscientific.



    R1b did come from Anatolia but they were not Proto Indo-European for sure.It seems that this paternal lineage is connected with Bell Beaker culture which was late Neolithic comer and started from Southern Portugal.R1b or more specifically some subclades of R1b got Indo-Europeanized in Central Europe where they also acquired more Northern autosomal admix through swapping women with Corded Ware people.

    Maybe R1b U152 was the Italic-Celtic marker?


    http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/file.php/4470/!via/oucontent/course/9476/gaelic_1_fig008.jpg

    http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/U152-S28-poE-CT.png

    Apparently R1b U152 is most diverse in Western Poland.

    E-V13 is not founder effect in Balkans

    Iberia is very far where we have Mesolithic E Hg from tombs/bones

    Balkanic E-V13 is relative to Cyprus Levant

    (Kadmeian-Pelasgian most possible or Phoenician)

    possible entrance to Balkans is Peloponese during chalkolithic era

    considering Homer we see the word Αιθιοψ.

    Ethiopeia is probably mother Land of Balcanic E-V13 but probably came from Cyprus
    since Akkado-Cyprus knew and had unlimited copper

    by what I remember the highest peaks are in Greece and not in Albania (where are highest numbers) and mainly in areas were Achaians settled and not Arbanites,
    E-V13 drops to Arberesh and Arbanites (correct me if I am wrong) and in many other Greek populations.

    I even hear and read that E-V13 could come from liberation of slaves or Roman armies or Ottoman armies but I don't think so

    I guess genetics soon will drop more light

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    E-V13 is not founder effect in Balkans
    Yes it is.Balkans lacks diversity.All of EV-13 is from a single subclade.

    Iberia is very far where we have Mesolithic E Hg from tombs/bones
    Did they found out the Y-DNA of Mesolithic Iberians?Can you link the study?You cannot.Because they didn't test the Y-DNA.

    Balkanic E-V13 is relative to Cyprus Levant

    (Kadmeian-Pelasgian most possible or Phoenician)

    possible entrance to Balkans is Peloponese during chalkolithic era

    considering Homer we see the word Αιθιοψ.

    Ethiopeia is probably mother Land of Balcanic E-V13 but probably came from Cyprus
    since Akkado-Cyprus knew and had unlimited copper

    by what I remember the highest peaks are in Greece and not in Albania (where are highest numbers) and mainly in areas were Achaians settled and not Arbanites,
    E-V13 drops to Arberesh and Arbanites (correct me if I am wrong) and in many other Greek populations.

    I even hear and read that E-V13 could come from liberation of slaves or Roman armies or Ottoman armies but I don't think so

    I guess genetics soon will drop more light
    Why do some people resort themself in mythology and make wild guesses concerning haplogroups?Stop this nonsense please.

    Archeologically there is a link of Pelasgians with Anatolian people.So we can link them with Anatolian Neolithic invaders who were full of J2a and/or J2b and possible R1b L23+.

    Now we have nothing in hand regarding of how EV-13 came to Balkans.It has been found in Neolithic side in Iberia alongside the dominating G2a males of Cardium Pottery Culture.

    Now either the G2a Middle Eastern Neolithic people already found the EV13 in Southern Europe who came in late Mesolithic times or EV-13 was in minority alongside the G2a people.

    There is a upcoming aDNA study concerning the Balkan Neolithics.Probably we will find answers of our questions.

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