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Thread: Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

  1. #51
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    Argeș(~SER+MAC)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    Walati(Vlachs)

    Ethnic group
    Thraco-Roman
    Country: Romania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Y-DNA haplogroups from Romania(Cluj,Brasov,Dolj,Mehedinti counties,aslo Basarab surnames)


    E-M123 Cluj-1

    E-V13 Basarabi-10
    Brasov -7
    Cluj -9
    Dolj -6


    E-V22 Brasov -2




    G-P15(G2)Basarabi-1
    Cluj -3


    I-M223/ Brasov -1
    I2a2a Dolj -1
    Mehedinti-2

    I-M253/ Cluj-2
    I1 Dolj-4


    I-P109/ Brasov-4
    I1d1

    I-P215/ Dolj-5
    I-M438/
    I2*


    I-P37.2/Basarabi -5
    I2a1 Brasov -13
    Cluj -6
    Dolj -5
    Mehedinti-1

    I-P41.2/ Cluj-1
    I2a1b1a1




    J-M241/Basarabi -9
    J2b2 Brasov -3
    Dolj -2
    Mehedinti-2

    J-M267/ Brasov-2
    J1 Cluj -1

    J-M410/ Brasov-4
    J2a Cluj -4

    J-M67/ Basarabi - 1
    J2a4b Cluj - 1
    Dolj - 1
    Mehedinti -1


    J-M92/ Brasov-1
    J2a4b1


    J-P58/ Basarabi-1
    J1c3

    N-M231 Cluj-1

    Q-M242 Brasov-1

    R1b-L21 Cluj-1

    R1b-M269 Brasov-2
    Cluj -3
    Dolj -3

    R1b-L48 Cluj-1

    R1b-L2/ Cluj -1
    R1b S139 Dolj -1
    Mehedinti-1

    R1a-M17 Basarabi -1
    Brasov -7
    Cluj -10
    Dolj -8
    Mehedinti-1


    R1a-M458/ Basarabi -1
    R1a1a7 Cluj -3
    Dolj -1
    Mehedinti-3

    R1b-U106/ Brasov-3
    R1b-s21

    R1b U152/ Dolj-1
    R1b-s28

    R1b-U198 Cluj-1

    T-70 Cluj-1


    Sample size:

    Basarabi -29
    Dolj -38
    Mehedinti-11
    Cluj -50
    Brasov -50






    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0041803
    Last edited by Diurpaneus; 28-07-12 at 10:51.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    Yes it is.Balkans lacks diversity.All of EV-13 is from a single subclade.



    Did they found out the Y-DNA of Mesolithic Iberians?Can you link the study?You cannot.Because they didn't test the Y-DNA.



    Why do some people resort themself in mythology and make wild guesses concerning haplogroups?Stop this nonsense please.

    Archeologically there is a link of Pelasgians with Anatolian people.So we can link them with Anatolian Neolithic invaders who were full of J2a and/or J2b and possible R1b L23+.

    Now we have nothing in hand regarding of how EV-13 came to Balkans.It has been found in Neolithic side in Iberia alongside the dominating G2a males of Cardium Pottery Culture.

    Now either the G2a Middle Eastern Neolithic people already found the EV13 in Southern Europe who came in late Mesolithic times or EV-13 was in minority alongside the G2a people.

    There is a upcoming aDNA study concerning the Balkan Neolithics.Probably we will find answers of our questions.
    That is true not only one but many

    it seems results in balkans by older search seems to be not satisfiying

    the thing you know and probably hide since you the Iberian E-V13 is that another Mark of Balkanic
    Balkanic is Kushetic and Iberian is North West African. may be I am worng but one is M-79 and the other M-81
    maybe I am wrong, but I think that is the situation,
    The Balkanic E I think is same with Cyprus and Levant and Phoenicia, and has nothing to do with modern ethnicities in Balkans, but with older

    so your in post number #45 where you consider E-V13 as Albanian is accurate?
    remember Hommer describes people in Troyan war as Ethiops Αιθιοψ so he knew that Egypt Ethiopean people came to Mycenes,
    and I am certain that you don't believe when he describes Ethiops he meant Albanian
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    That is true not only one but many

    it seems results in balkans by older search seems to be not satisfiying

    the thing you know and probably hide since you the Iberian E-V13 is that another Mark of Balkanic
    Balkanic is Kushetic and Iberian is North West African. may be I am worng but one is M-79 and the other M-81
    maybe I am wrong, but I think that is the situation,
    The Balkanic E I think is same with Cyprus and Levant and Phoenicia, and has nothing to do with modern ethnicities in Balkans, but with older

    so your in post number #45 where you consider E-V13 as Albanian is accurate?
    remember Hommer describes people in Troyan war as Ethiops Αιθιοψ so he knew that Egypt Ethiopean people came to Mycenes,
    and I am certain that you don't believe when he describes Ethiops he meant Albanian
    lol i cannot believe you are so ignorant.There is so much bullshit in your post that i don't know were to start.

    The EV-13 in Iberia was EV-13 not E-M81 Berber clade.

    And EV-13 is not a Balkanic marker.It just peaks in Balkans because of founder effect.

    Druzes in Levant region have this marker too.It could well be a Natufian marker.

    220px-NatufianSpread.svg.png

    And please improve your grammar skills.I cannot follow your logic.

  4. #54
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    Ethnic group
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post

    All of EV13 in Balkans is due to genetic drift.The paragroup of EV13 EM78* was found among two Albanians so them being derived from Greeks is Dienekes bullshit just as his Anatolian hypothesis of Indo-European origins.

    EV13 was found in Neolithic Spain i guess Greeks were responsible for it's spread there lol.

    The spread of EV13 in Balkans reflects a Western Balkans to Eastern Balkans spread.The highest diversity in one study was found in Bosnia.So much of your Greek EV13.



    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    Yes it is.Balkans lacks diversity.All of EV-13 is from a single subclade.



    Did they found out the Y-DNA of Mesolithic Iberians?Can you link the study?You cannot.Because they didn't test the Y-DNA.



    Why do some people resort themself in mythology and make wild guesses concerning haplogroups?Stop this nonsense please.

    Archeologically there is a link of Pelasgians with Anatolian people.So we can link them with Anatolian Neolithic invaders who were full of J2a and/or J2b and possible R1b L23+.

    Now we have nothing in hand regarding of how EV-13 came to Balkans.It has been found in Neolithic side in Iberia alongside the dominating G2a males of Cardium Pottery Culture.

    Now either the G2a Middle Eastern Neolithic people already found the EV13 in Southern Europe who came in late Mesolithic times or EV-13 was in minority alongside the G2a people.

    There is a upcoming aDNA study concerning the Balkan Neolithics.Probably we will find answers of our questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malsori View Post
    lol i cannot believe you are so ignorant.There is so much bullshit in your post that i don't know were to start.

    The EV-13 in Iberia was EV-13 not E-M81 Berber clade.

    And EV-13 is not a Balkanic marker.It just peaks in Balkans because of founder effect.

    Druzes in Levant region have this marker too.It could well be a Natufian marker.

    220px-NatufianSpread.svg.png

    And please improve your grammar skills.I cannot follow your logic.

    Answers are here

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25568-African-mtDNA-and-Y-DNA-in-Iberia


    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...-terminologies



    Question
    in which study you find that in bold letters?
    the only diversity with E M81 and E M78 is in Greece and is exact 2 numbers
    in wich searrch and made by who you find that claim in bold?

    Question 2
    Balkanic E Hg is after botle-neck or founder effect?
    and where this bottle-neck or founder effect occured? Cyprus-Levant or Greece Bosnia Albania?

    Question 3
    Do we have any Founder mutation in E hg in Balkans?

    thank you



    can you answer the questions for me plz since I am ignorant?
    Last edited by Yetos; 28-07-12 at 11:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    Y-DNA haplogroups from Romania(Cluj,Brasov,Dolj,Mehedinti counties,aslo Basarab surnames)


    correction: R1b-M269 Cluj-3

    http://www.plosone.org/article/fetch...e.0041803.s001

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    Hello I'm moldovan from Moldova and my mother tongue is romanian (usually we call it moldovan).

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    If you noticed the most mixed nation (by haplogroups) are romanians from Romania. Moldovans got two main haplos R1a and I (mostly I2a but also I1). At least 70% of moldovans are romanian-speaking. As I said romanians are the most mixed, granted to that we got a lot of surnames wich reflects nations' names as you can see below:
    1. Rusu (the most spread) (Russian)
    2. Ungurean(u) (Hungarian)
    3. Sirbu (Serb)
    4. Moldovan(u)
    5. Grecu (Greek)
    7. Bulgar(u) (Bulgarian)
    8. Neamtu, Nemtanu (German)
    9. Tintar(u) (Aromanian)
    10. Vlah(u) (Vlach or Romanian from Walachia)
    11. Ardeleanu (Transylvanian)
    12. Arnaut(u) (Albanian)
    13. Horvat (Croat)
    14. Leahu (Pole)

    I'm sure that Romanian nation emerged in the same way as American, Canadian or Australian and it happened when Latin (ancient Romanian) was the most spoken language

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    Now I would like to tell you about my views on history. The biggest problem in finding the truth is that most of us blindly believe that all we were taught at school is true, that once a common opinion of some historians was approved by Academy of History is true. How much of you asked itself who were the people that established the chronology of history, the chronology of events, that an event took place earlier or later than other one? These were Scaliger and Petavius at the beginning of 17th century. There were a lot of scholars who didn't agree with the works of those two but powerful Vatican supported the version of Petavius who was a jesuit (maybe he was charged to falsify the history). Since then the chronology of historical facts never was revised. You should understand that initially historians were not supposed to establish the truth but to make a beautiful story about a certain country.

    I have my version of history. I have to recognize that I have been inspired by Anatoly Fomenko (his work in english "History: fiction or sience"). But I can't agree at all with him, anyway his works astonished me and turned my imagination about the past at 180º. Most curious is that he's not a ******* historian he's mathematician and he used some mathematical methods invented by himself.

    Now... what about Vlachs? What's the biggest difference between east european languages and west european languages? Eastern languages don't have articles in front of nouns, some languages don't have article at all (like russian) and some have the article but as the end part of a noun (like romanian). As you know Latin also doesn't have article in front of nouns, that means Latin is an east european language. Article in Latin is the ending of a word like in Romanian: caine (dog) cainele (the dog), but not in front like: Le maison, La casa, Das Haus, The house and so on.

    If Latin is an east european language then what people from eastern part of Europe spoke it? Of course Vlaaaachs(romanians, aromuns, moldovans and so on) because they are the single eastearn people who speak a romance language. You should know that term Byzantium is a conventional term for Eastern Roman Empire invented by western historians to make a difference between two Roman Empires, but actually the true purpose was to make people forget about the first and only true Roman Empire where the Latin spread over Europe from. Maybe because at that time all this ragion was ruled by Ottomans. People living in Bizantine Empire never called themselves bizantines they called themselves Romanians because Bizantium was called Romania. The word Romania comes from the word ROME wich is the same romanian word LUME wich means people and world. Also the word LATIN is the same word LYDIA and means people (german-LEUTE; russian-LYUDI).

    The Vlachs are the same Pelasgians and Lydians people who lived before the greeks arrived in Balkan and Anatolia. Even nowadays Greeks don't call themselves Greeks but Helleni who are living in Hellas and not Greece.
    The word GREEK or GREECE comes frome GEORGE, GREGORY, JURGEN, ERIC, YURI, YORIK, YORK and so on. That mean that originally a greek was a soldier of the army of George, that's why in Christian world George is one of most important figures and a saint. This George is the same Chingiz Khan wich comes to us from chinese sources. This George (with his greeks) destroyd the first Roman Empire with the capital city in Troy, and brought the slavs and turks with him and maybe the helleni people (I'm not sure about this, I don't exclude helleni were living there before George's arriving).

    So... a lot of Vlachs(Lydians, Pelasgians, Troyans) flew westwards were they had colonies and local people were partly romanized(don't forget at that time there weren't living so much people as nowadays do). Historians called this era Dark Age because they were germans, frenchmen, italians(I mean from West) and they knew that this part of Europe didn't have much importance at that time. The center of civilization at that time was in East where Dark Age come much later and is still persisting nowadays. Some time George Khan ruled over all Europe, but later Vatican church tried to hide this fact excluding anything that reminds us the word KHAN. I've found a lot of traces of word Khan especially in the West like Canada = Khanate or like Vatican = Father Khan (Papa de la roma, Patriarch = Father), Canute or Knut (danish king). Western romanized people tried to oppose new ruling calling the germanic peoples to join them. It lead to the emerging of the Frankish Empire and Catholic Church, coz in that time two states couldn't have the same worship.

    Do you know that frankish kings considered themselvs Troyans? Historians (stupid historians) consider this aberations because between Troyans and Franks there is an almost 2000 yars. Well these kings weren't historians so they could'nt know much about themselves. How could someone believe that a blind Homer (blind means he couldn't write) so perfectly told his stories about Troy to people that after 400 years someone who knew his stories could put his words on paper. In Moldova, especially in countryside, people conserved carols sung at Christmas having the main theme "Troyan Wars" and this people have no idea who was Homer, because these carols passed on from generation to generation and Homer had nothing to do with these. That means that Troyan Wars took place not so long time ago. But of course Vatican did all the possible to forget about this nightmare sending that back as far as possible (13th century B.C.) and naming George in chinese way Chingiz whose army had never reached the Atlantic.

    Why Vatican was so afraid of these events with Troy? Because Troyan Wars mean the collapse of first Rome and a new one was created in nowadays capital city of Italy, this way pretending that there was no other Rome and Vatican Church is the only legitimate power. The new catholic empire was named Francia coz of the term FRANC wich meant FREE, coz they got freedom from the George's army (greeks). Nowadays FRANC can be found as an economic term meaning tax free. This empire was also called Leon(Spain) Lyon(France) Livonia(Baltic countries) from LION that was the symbol of Catholicism. For the Slavs the main symbol was the BEAR, for others in Balkan, Anatolia, Caucasus is the WOLF. The kingdom of Leon in Spain or kingdom of Livonia in Baltic region never existed, these are a reflexion of The Empire of Lion, the same Galic Empire, the same Frankish Empire, the same Roman Empire of German Nation. This empire fell down after a civil war called peacefully Protestant Reformation.

    This is a concise presentation of my views on history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kronach View Post
    If you noticed the most mixed nation (by haplogroups) are romanians from Romania. Moldovans got two main haplos R1a and I (mostly I2a but also I1). At least 70% of moldovans are romanian-speaking. As I said romanians are the most mixed, granted to that we got a lot of surnames wich reflects nations' names as you can see below:
    1. Rusu (the most spread) (Russian)
    2. Ungurean(u) (Hungarian)
    3. Sirbu (Serb)
    4. Moldovan(u)
    5. Grecu (Greek)
    7. Bulgar(u) (Bulgarian)
    8. Neamtu, Nemtanu (German)
    9. Tintar(u) (Aromanian)
    10. Vlah(u) (Vlach or Romanian from Walachia)
    11. Ardeleanu (Transylvanian)
    12. Arnaut(u) (Albanian)
    13. Horvat (Croat)
    14. Leahu (Pole)

    I'm sure that Romanian nation emerged in the same way as American, Canadian or Australian and it happened when Latin (ancient Romanian) was the most spoken language
    Quote Originally Posted by kronach View Post
    If you noticed the most mixed nation (by haplogroups) are romanians from Romania. Moldovans got two main haplos R1a and I (mostly I2a but also I1). At least 70% of moldovans are romanian-speaking. As I said romanians are the most mixed, granted to that we got a lot of surnames wich reflects nations' names as you can see below:
    1. Rusu (the most spread) (Russian)
    2. Ungurean(u) (Hungarian)
    3. Sirbu (Serb)
    4. Moldovan(u)
    5. Grecu (Greek)
    7. Bulgar(u) (Bulgarian)
    8. Neamtu, Nemtanu (German)
    9. Tintar(u) (Aromanian)
    10. Vlah(u) (Vlach or Romanian from Walachia)
    11. Ardeleanu (Transylvanian)
    12. Arnaut(u) (Albanian)
    13. Horvat (Croat)
    14. Leahu (Pole)

    I'm sure that Romanian nation emerged in the same way as American, Canadian or Australian and it happened when Latin (ancient Romanian) was the most spoken language
    I agree that Romanians,as a whole, are pretty mixed people(genetically speaking,not ethnic),but definitely they are NOT THE MOST HETEROGENOUS.
    After all, this is the place where Central Europe,Easten Europe and the Balkans met.
    But you can find here diversity from ancient times: there are several distinct cultures in the Early Bronze Age which probably reflects distinct background.

    http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope...istory-pre.htm

    Anthropology studies from The Bronze and Iron Age usually conclude: lack of homogenity.


    http://iit.iit.tuiasi.ro/Reviste/mem..._2004_p245.pdf

    Roman colonization and Migration Period also played a role here.


    But, there are quite homogenous areas(not few,not small) ,some of them from pre-Roman Age,most notably:MARAMURES,OAS,,APUSENI/TARA MOTILOR,BUCOVINA.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Tumuli




    From those you mentioned:Grecu,Bulgaru,Tintaru,Arnautu,Leahu- are very rare.
    Horvat is a Hungarian name -bearers could be Magyars from Transylvania,Magyarized Romanians or Csango.
    Rus/Rusu -does not come from "Russian",but Latin "russus"-red,reddish

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/russus


    http://dexonline.ro/definitie/rus

    Check out the Italian surnames:
    ROSSO, ROSSA,ROSSI, RUSSI, RUSSO, RUGGIU, RUBIU, ROSSELLI, ROSSELLO, ROSSELLINI, RISSIELLO, ROSSILLO, ROSSETTI, ROSSETTO, ROSSETTINI, ROSSITTI, ROSSITTO, ROSSINI, ROSSINO, ROSSOTTI, ROSSOTTO, ROSSINI, ROSSONE, ROSSUTO, RUSSELLO, RUSSINO, RUSSOTTI, RUSSOTTO, RUSSIANI, RUSSOLILLO.

    Ungureanu- Romanians from Transylvania were called this way by the Moldavians and Wallachians; it has nothing to do with Hungarians.
    Arnautu-initially meant Albanian mercenary guard ,but the latter sense is "armed servant".

    http://dexonline.ro/definitie/arn%C4%83ut

    Neamtu, Nemteanu means inhabitant(Romanian) of Neamt region.
    The same with Moldovan/Moldoveanu,Ardelean/Ungureanu,as for Vlah- it's not a frequently used name, Romanians didn't call themselves that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kronach View Post

    This is a concise presentation of my views on history.

    There's only two branches:Romanian and Aromanian- cause Moldavians are Romanians.

    No offense, but this is Stalin's Agenda.
    It contains "Moldavian" language also.
    Unfortunately,still available.
    His purpose was to cut all the links with the West.
    Former Securitate fellows claim that Latin was a Thracian branch and Romanians are Pelasgians.

    Related theories:Anti-Vlach propaganda from the South Slavic countries.
    But guess what language did people spoke before Slavic migration.

    Still,he did a lot worse:

    Romanians from Basarabia and Bucovina in the workcamps of Kazakhstan and Siberia

    http://romaniidinkazahstan.info/img/...ria_1950_m.jpg


    http://www.flux.md/sys/upload/2009/1...-deportati.jpg


    http://www.romanimea.com/images/Basa...agCopii2_s.jpg


    Today Romanian comunity from Kazakhstan:

    http://foaienationala.ro/wp-content/...i1-300x225.jpg


    http://elldor.info/wp-content/upload...1-mai-2012.jpg

    Google type:romanii deportati Kazahstan

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    Quote Originally Posted by kronach View Post
    Now I would like to tell you about my views on history. The biggest problem in finding the truth is that most of us blindly believe that all we were taught at school is true, that once a common opinion of some historians was approved by Academy of History is true. How much of you asked itself who were the people that established the chronology of history, the chronology of events, that an event took place earlier or later than other one? These were Scaliger and Petavius at the beginning of 17th century. There were a lot of scholars who didn't agree with the works of those two but powerful Vatican supported the version of Petavius who was a jesuit (maybe he was charged to falsify the history). Since then the chronology of historical facts never was revised. You should understand that initially historians were not supposed to establish the truth but to make a beautiful story about a certain country.

    I have my version of history. I have to recognize that I have been inspired by Anatoly Fomenko (his work in english "History: fiction or sience"). But I can't agree at all with him, anyway his works astonished me and turned my imagination about the past at 180º. Most curious is that he's not a ******* historian he's mathematician and he used some mathematical methods invented by himself.

    Now... what about Vlachs? What's the biggest difference between east european languages and west european languages? Eastern languages don't have articles in front of nouns, some languages don't have article at all (like russian) and some have the article but as the end part of a noun (like romanian). As you know Latin also doesn't have article in front of nouns, that means Latin is an east european language. Article in Latin is the ending of a word like in Romanian: caine (dog) cainele (the dog), but not in front like: Le maison, La casa, Das Haus, The house and so on.

    If Latin is an east european language then what people from eastern part of Europe spoke it? Of course Vlaaaachs(romanians, aromuns, moldovans and so on) because they are the single eastearn people who speak a romance language. You should know that term Byzantium is a conventional term for Eastern Roman Empire invented by western historians to make a difference between two Roman Empires, but actually the true purpose was to make people forget about the first and only true Roman Empire where the Latin spread over Europe from. Maybe because at that time all this ragion was ruled by Ottomans. People living in Bizantine Empire never called themselves bizantines they called themselves Romanians because Bizantium was called Romania. The word Romania comes from the word ROME wich is the same romanian word LUME wich means people and world. Also the word LATIN is the same word LYDIA and means people (german-LEUTE; russian-LYUDI).

    The Vlachs are the same Pelasgians and Lydians people who lived before the greeks arrived in Balkan and Anatolia. Even nowadays Greeks don't call themselves Greeks but Helleni who are living in Hellas and not Greece.
    The word GREEK or GREECE comes frome GEORGE, GREGORY, JURGEN, ERIC, YURI, YORIK, YORK and so on. That mean that originally a greek was a soldier of the army of George, that's why in Christian world George is one of most important figures and a saint. This George is the same Chingiz Khan wich comes to us from chinese sources. This George (with his greeks) destroyd the first Roman Empire with the capital city in Troy, and brought the slavs and turks with him and maybe the helleni people (I'm not sure about this, I don't exclude helleni were living there before George's arriving).

    So... a lot of Vlachs(Lydians, Pelasgians, Troyans) flew westwards were they had colonies and local people were partly romanized(don't forget at that time there weren't living so much people as nowadays do). Historians called this era Dark Age because they were germans, frenchmen, italians(I mean from West) and they knew that this part of Europe didn't have much importance at that time. The center of civilization at that time was in East where Dark Age come much later and is still persisting nowadays. Some time George Khan ruled over all Europe, but later Vatican church tried to hide this fact excluding anything that reminds us the word KHAN. I've found a lot of traces of word Khan especially in the West like Canada = Khanate or like Vatican = Father Khan (Papa de la roma, Patriarch = Father), Canute or Knut (danish king). Western romanized people tried to oppose new ruling calling the germanic peoples to join them. It lead to the emerging of the Frankish Empire and Catholic Church, coz in that time two states couldn't have the same worship.

    Do you know that frankish kings considered themselvs Troyans? Historians (stupid historians) consider this aberations because between Troyans and Franks there is an almost 2000 yars. Well these kings weren't historians so they could'nt know much about themselves. How could someone believe that a blind Homer (blind means he couldn't write) so perfectly told his stories about Troy to people that after 400 years someone who knew his stories could put his words on paper. In Moldova, especially in countryside, people conserved carols sung at Christmas having the main theme "Troyan Wars" and this people have no idea who was Homer, because these carols passed on from generation to generation and Homer had nothing to do with these. That means that Troyan Wars took place not so long time ago. But of course Vatican did all the possible to forget about this nightmare sending that back as far as possible (13th century B.C.) and naming George in chinese way Chingiz whose army had never reached the Atlantic.

    Why Vatican was so afraid of these events with Troy? Because Troyan Wars mean the collapse of first Rome and a new one was created in nowadays capital city of Italy, this way pretending that there was no other Rome and Vatican Church is the only legitimate power. The new catholic empire was named Francia coz of the term FRANC wich meant FREE, coz they got freedom from the George's army (greeks). Nowadays FRANC can be found as an economic term meaning tax free. This empire was also called Leon(Spain) Lyon(France) Livonia(Baltic countries) from LION that was the symbol of Catholicism. For the Slavs the main symbol was the BEAR, for others in Balkan, Anatolia, Caucasus is the WOLF. The kingdom of Leon in Spain or kingdom of Livonia in Baltic region never existed, these are a reflexion of The Empire of Lion, the same Galic Empire, the same Frankish Empire, the same Roman Empire of German Nation. This empire fell down after a civil war called peacefully Protestant Reformation.

    This is a concise presentation of my views on history.

    hmm it is atheory, but don't fit,

    1)Latin and Celtic is a linguistic family which population I don't know how much fit with Romania and Aromani,

    2) There is big difference among Romanians and Aromanians (Villachians)
    the only connection is the linguistic and that with enough differences
    I even heard Romania are Romania and Aromani are after Romylia-Rumelia but is still a theory

    3) the term Greek is after γραιοι and not Saint George warriors it is an exonym and not an endonym

    4) the case of Troyans is favorite after Virgil epic poetry, and not before,
    ON THE OTHER HAND WE HAVE EVIDENCE THAT ETRUSCANS CAME FROM MINOR ASIA, WHERE TROY EXIST
    THYRRENIANS IDENTIFIED BY ANCIENT AS THE LANGUAGE OF PELASGIANS (Thoukidides)

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    From those you mentioned:Grecu,Bulgaru,Tintaru,Arnautu,Leahu- are very rare.
    You're wrong! In Moldova the surnames GRECU and BULGARU are by far not rare, are ones of the most known, every moldovan knows at least one person with these surnames. The surname TINTARI in my town is one of the most spread. Maybe in Romania is different but not in Moldova.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kronach View Post
    You're wrong! In Moldova the surnames GRECU and BULGARU are by far not rare, are ones of the most known, every moldovan knows at least one person with these surnames. The surname TINTARI in my town is one of the most spread. Maybe in Romania is different but not in Moldova.
    Ok and in Greece we have names Like Germanos Boulgaris etc
    that proves probably the origin of some families, or the return back of some others,
    I agree with you but name Grecu means either a Greek from ancient times, either the Moldo-Wallachian speciall treaties at Ottomans era when many Greek mainly rebels moved to Romania, or local Rumanians-Moldovans who once went to work or live in Greece and then return,

    Aromani people are mainly Roman or Local populations that got Latinised,
    Rumani are people from around Rumania (Moldova is relative to Rumania)
    Roma are the roamers, a word in usage sometimes is gipsies though not correct

    Aromani - Vlach is a linguistic termination of Latin speakers in Balkans outside Rumania and of non Rumanian origin,
    in Greece there are 5 different Aromani areas and population from which only one has connection with Rumania the Moesian Vlachs or as they shelf called Μοσιοβλαχοι MosioVlachi

    Vlach come from Villachion or Βιλαετιον a word that used in Byzantine times Meaning something like organised villages

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    Of course it makes sense that Romania is quite heterogenous overall, seeing as many people came together and made up what it is over history, but there's still a main basis for much of the population since older times. Depending on the theory, it may be possible that Aromanians and early Romanians were in closer contact than they are today. The linguistic links are quite close for them to have been just randomly Latinized at separate times (it's clear to any linguist that they separated from a common East Romance language not much longer than a millennium ago), but it could be that they split or were split apart a long time ago, (over 1000 yrs) due to the Slavic migrations or something, and then they absorbed or mixed with other people over time since then. Aromanians/southern Vlachs are somewhat distinct because they're small populations that stayed relatively isolated, or occasionally mixed with Greeks, but they're not that far genetically from other Balkan people including some Romanians either. Megleno-Romanians were probably a branch of Aromanian types, and Istro-Romanians split from Daco-Romanians. Either way both Aromanians and Romanians are considered subgroups of Vlachs (an exonym given by foreign people like Slavs to Latin speaking people) and are mainly based off old local Latinized paleo-Balkanic either Dacian/Thracian/Illyrian type peoples with others they absorbed. I can agree with Yetos that Aromanians didn't come from Romanians and move south however, but I still don't think they're mostly actual Greeks.

    Anyway, southern Romanians/Wallachians draw more toward the Balkans as an extension of it, Transylvania more toward that and Central Europe, and Moldova toward eastern somewhat. Moldovans were basically an offshoot of certain Romanians, probably originally from around Maramures in northern Transylvania, who moved east in the Middle Ages and brought their language there. But it's obvious that they mixed a good amount with Slavs and other peoples over time, even before Russians moved in the area and they came under Soviet rule, significantly more than other Romanians. It doesn't take an expert to notice differences between say northern Moldovans and Oltenians or Banat people on the other end of the country in the southwest (I'm not surprised the main haplogroups in Moldova are R1a and I, but unfortunately its not very well documented genetically). There's also some linguistic regional differences in vocabulary, with some more archaic vocab being preserved in different regions, and accents also differing from place to place to an extent. And the theory about Latin being spoken in the east and brought west by Pelasgians/Trojans or Dacian type people is completely unfounded and not based on fact or history, but more like nationalist wishful thinking. What kronach said is simply pseudo-scientific/historical and not legitimate in my opinion. It's rather embarrassing that some people come up with this but I'm not sure what you can blame that on. This forum shouldn't be full of this kind of stuff. Interesting, nonetheless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickP View Post
    Of course it makes sense that Romania is quite heterogenous overall, seeing as many people came together and made up what it is over history, but there's still a main basis for much of the population since older times. Depending on the theory, it may be possible that Aromanians and early Romanians were in closer contact than they are today. The linguistic links are quite close for them to have been just randomly Latinized at separate times (it's clear to any linguist that they separated from a common East Romance language not much longer than a millennium ago), but it could be that they split or were split apart a long time ago, (over 1000 yrs) due to the Slavic migrations or something, and then they absorbed or mixed with other people over time since then. Aromanians/southern Vlachs are somewhat distinct because they're small populations that stayed relatively isolated, or occasionally mixed with Greeks, but they're not that far genetically from other Balkan people including some Romanians either. Megleno-Romanians were probably a branch of Aromanian types, and Istro-Romanians split from Daco-Romanians. Either way both Aromanians and Romanians are considered subgroups of Vlachs (an exonym given by foreign people like Slavs to Latin speaking people) and are mainly based off old local Latinized paleo-Balkanic either Dacian/Thracian/Illyrian type peoples with others they absorbed. I can agree with Yetos that Aromanians didn't come from Romanians and move south however, but I still don't think they're mostly actual Greeks.

    No I do not say that Aromani are Greeks.

    I say that Aromani in each area they exist they share relation with the older before Romanization population,

    what I mean is that aromani tribes are connected with the local population sometimes more than in between them,

    I will not refer names but at a range where I live the phenomenon is obvious,
    we see aromani villages in short dinstances like 10-20 km that are not connected and not even married among them,
    the reason is that they belong to different armanesku tribes, sometimes they prefer to go km away to find a girl or a boy from their tribe, although near them exist armani village but it is from another tribe.

    there are tribes of Aromani that are connected with Greek population, others with Romanian, Bulgarian etc in Balkans,
    Don't worry they know who are they, and with whom they are linked.

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    Yes, I can agree with most of that. Makes sense. There is plenty of variety among Aromanian Vlach groups themselves, even differing from village to village. It could be that they started out that way and were just Latinzed all together under a common language, but I also think it could be that over time in the centuries since then, they just absorbed and mixed with other nearby local people occasionally. Hard to say because their history isn't too well documented. But yes, some do feel more closer to Greeks or want to assimilate into the population, others to Romanians (many moved there that I know), and others just feel like their own unique people. And yeah all Vlach groups call or have once called themselves some variation of the same term, derived from 'romanus', like 'armãn' vs Rom. 'român/rumân', 'armãnescu' vs Rom. 'românesc/rumânesc', 'armãneascã' vs 'românească', etc. Some groups just put the 'a' in front due to the way their language developed.

    this map has a theoretical starting area for the early Vlach groups and how they spread and went different ways, as well as the links to linguistic features of other Balkanic languages, which is interesting
    http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/5...quesvlachs.jpg

    There's also Meglenites who are similar yet separate in their own way. And the Vlachs can differ culturally based on the countries they're in, be it Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia (Cincars/Tsintsari), Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia/Istria, etc. Still many have had that traditional shepherding culture, and were believed to be somewhat nomadic in antiquity, so maybe that's how they spread all over the place. There's other branches of Vlachs that even went as far north as Poland and Slovakia and stuff and blended in the local populations eventually, becoming more assimilated than other places.

    But anyway this is getting a bit off topic, I guess, sorry.

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    Yes but this only talks about the vlachs in the Balkans,they also came in to western Slavic countries like Slovakia and the Czech republic. I would be curious to see their genetic impact especially on Slovakia, because that's where three of my grandparents come from. Also in my family we are quite dark and look very similar to a lot of Romanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    I once wrote an article on a mysterious warrior community from the region surrounding lake Scutari and Southern Montenegro from the early 15th century called the Pamalioti or Tamalioti. They were referred to as an Albanian tribe by official Serb sources, an Aromun or Serbian tribe according to Albanian sources of the time, a Roman or Dalmatian people according to Venetian sources and today all modern Albanian sources claim they were Albanian. The fact that the coast of Kotor, Dalmatia and Northern Albania was administered by Venice as 'Venetian Albania' suggests that the classification Albanian may be an administrative or geographic classification rather than an ethnic one.
    LOL.

    "Venetian Albania" or "Albania Veneta" is called for people.
    According to "history italian and Wikipedia" just albanian living here.
    "Ma nelle aree interne più della metà della popolazione era di lingua slava, specialmente nei primi anni del Settecento."
    With this i suppose after 1700 (with immigration) slavs had achieved a strong majority.
    Many historican italian think before the arrival of the slavs, albanians were in the north of the Balkans.
    And for slavs moved in south.
    In fact if you go in north albania you can find albanians with surname "Duro","Muro","Forte" and another.
    This surname are italians and NOT ​albanians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    I think the bulk of albanian history is a mystery, they have no written records. Outside sources are very sparse, I do not proclaim them to be illyrians either, not enough info to declare anything as fact. I think they obviously have some illyrian in them but so does every other balkan nation.

    I have heard wild claims from nationalists there that are laughable at best. I think anything related to any balkan countries needs to have various sources from more then one country to be verified due to everyone hating everyone else there.
    In fact in the past are Germans to "proclaim" them to be illyrians.
    Last edited by Marko94; 02-09-13 at 11:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marko94 View Post
    LOL.

    "Venetian Albania" or "Albania Veneta" is called for people.
    According to "history italian and Wikipedia" just albanian living here.
    "Ma nelle aree interne più della metà della popolazione era di lingua slava, specialmente nei primi anni del Settecento."
    With this i suppose after 1700 (with immigration) slavs had achieved a strong majority.
    Many historican italian think before the arrival of the slavs, albanians were in the north of the Balkans.
    And for slavs moved in south.
    In fact if you go in north albania you can find albanians with surname "Duro","Muro","Forte" and another.
    This surname are italians and NOT ​albanians.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania

    Albanian veneta is mostly only modern montenegro lands, the original inhabitants where the non-slavic Dalmatians , the slavs came down from the hills into venetian territory to escape the Ottomans
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania

    Albanian veneta is mostly only modern montenegro lands, the original inhabitants where the non-slavic Dalmatians , the slavs came down from the hills into venetian territory to escape the Ottomans
    Ok, ok.
    If the map mostreb by dorian is "confirmed" i "suppose" albanians before the arrival of the slavs they stay in north balkan.
    If my opinion is confirmed it would explain why in the Albanian language have so low greek and high slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    What is this Roman marker of R1b , when Rome was a tiny spec of the populace of Italy around 500BC. The marker if anything would reflect the etrucan, sabellic and gallic-ligurian marker as these are far greater in populace than the Roman.

    As for this E1b map. it seems that it is a greek ( maybe aeolian ), epirote and doric marker, it cannot be an illyrian one as there is less than 10% north of modern Montenegro.
    This could be ......as greek historians say, is the boundry of the celtic-illyrian mix.
    The heal and toe of Italy represent greek migration plus epirote holdings from pHyyrus times.

    this just concludes that Albanians migrated to there present locale and assimilated the local people. be them illyrian, doric, epirote.
    Kosovo albanians carries 45.7% ev-13 yer,,i really dont think the north albanians have been tested for this marker because the biggest tribe of kosova is kranichi tribe an the rugova albanians both these people an tribes are from north albania rugova from kelmendi,krasnichi from hoti tribe,both these people language is northern albanian,so i think the north albanians aswell as kosova albanians whom speak same dilect are very much the oldest people in that reigion,BUT if kosova albanians have a higher marker of ev-13 then where does this leave greeks,an their marker is not so high

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    Quote Originally Posted by ukaj View Post
    Kosovo albanians carries 45.7% ev-13 yer,,i really dont think the north albanians have been tested for this marker because the biggest tribe of kosova is kranichi tribe an the rugova albanians both these people an tribes are from north albania rugova from kelmendi,krasnichi from hoti tribe,both these people language is northern albanian,so i think the north albanians aswell as kosova albanians whom speak same dilect are very much the oldest people in that reigion,BUT if kosova albanians have a higher marker of ev-13 then where does this leave greeks,an their marker is not so high
    Rugova are E-V13.
    E-V13 is so high in Ghegs because of founder effect. A bunch of Albanians living really isoolated in the mountains, some were E-V13 some were not, but they all have at least 10 children each and with years E-V13 become so dominant.
    Greeks nobody knows, it is a mistake that they have it a lot, just like it was mistake that Italians have it a lot. Albanians(Gegh) have it a lot 35-45%( it would not be 47 if they taste proper number of Albos like at least 500) and South Slavs have it 20-30%.
    E-V13 together with R1b-HT35 and J2b2 are the original Balkan markers.

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    Also from samples op up to know we see everybody in Balkan has lots, lots of E-V13, but R1b-HT35 and J2b2 Albanians have it visible more than the rest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Rugova are E-V13.
    E-V13 is so high in Ghegs because of founder effect. A bunch of Albanians living really isoolated in the mountains, some were E-V13 some were not, but they all have at least 10 children each and with years E-V13 become so dominant.
    Greeks nobody knows, it is a mistake that they have it a lot, just like it was mistake that Italians have it a lot. Albanians(Gegh) have it a lot 35-45%( it would not be 47 if they taste proper number of Albos like at least 500) and South Slavs have it 20-30%.
    E-V13 together with R1b-HT35 and J2b2 are the original Balkan markers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Also from samples op up to know we see everybody in Balkan has lots, lots of E-V13, but R1b-HT35 and J2b2 Albanians have it visible more than the rest
    E1b1b1a1 is about 29% in Montenegrins, 19% in Serbs, 19% in Upper Macedonians (former Yugoslav republic), 14% in Bosniacs.

    I don't know precisely in Bulgarians (in Eupedia is 24%).

    E1b1b1a1 is 45,6% in Geg Albanians in Kosovo (Pericic et al.), and 41,2% in Geg Albanians in Albania (Ferri et al.).

    E1b1b1a1 is 28,1% in Tosk Albanians.

    But it is surprising lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Geg Albanians have 23% J2 (Ferri et al.) and Tosk Albanians have 16,5% (Ferri et al.). I have no explanation for Arbereshe about the absence of J2. I would like to hear some opinion about this.

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