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Thread: Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    E1b1b1a1 is about 29% in Montenegrins, 19% in Serbs, 19% in Upper Macedonians (former Yugoslav republic), 14% in Bosniacs.

    I don't know precisely in Bulgarians (in Eupedia is 24%).

    E1b1b1a1 is 45,6% in Geg Albanians in Kosovo (Pericic et al.), and 41,2% in Geg Albanians in Albania (Ferri et al.).

    E1b1b1a1 is 28,1% in Tosk Albanians.

    But it is surprising lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Geg Albanians have 23% J2 (Ferri et al.) and Tosk Albanians have 16,5% (Ferri et al.). I have no explanation for Arbereshe about the absence of J2. I would like to hear some opinion about this.
    In Bulgarians it is 18.1 % E-V13, 1.9% E-M123 and 1.5% E-V12 and E-V22, do not know which is which it is together, it is not 24%, but they do not wanna change it. Anyways

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    In Bulgarians it is 18.1 % E-V13, 1.9% E-M123 and 1.5% E-V12 and E-V22, do not know which is which it is together, it is not 24%, but they do not wanna change it. Anyways
    In Serbia is less than in Eupedia, probably needs updating, but my main questions here is lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Do you have some opinion about this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    In Serbia is less than in Eupedia, probably needs updating, but my main questions here is lack of J2 in Arbereshe (Albanian colonists in Calabria and Apulia). Do you have some opinion about this?
    I do not think it lacks completely :) Well opinion is that Albanians are tribe people so the tribe that went to Italy was not rich on J2, another possibility is that J2 in Albanians is from assimilated people(Greeks, Bulgarians), but I do think they have it E-V13, R1b-HT 35 and J2b2 are together. Also Albanians in Italy are Tosk so maybe J2 is bigger in Gheg. :)
    E-V13 in Serbia is 15-20% so Eupedia is good, but the problem is that Serbs have no samples. Sample means at least 500 people, not related from all over the country. Only Bulgarians and Croats in the Balkan have that. We really need big samples of Serbs, Albanians and Greeks :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    I do not think it lacks completely :) Well opinion is that Albanians are tribe people so the tribe that went to Italy was not rich on J2, another possibility is that J2 in Albanians is from assimilated people(Greeks, Bulgarians), but I do think they have it E-V13, R1b-HT 35 and J2b2 are together. Also Albanians in Italy are Tosk so maybe J2 is bigger in Gheg. :)
    E-V13 in Serbia is 15-20% so Eupedia is good, but the problem is that Serbs have no samples. Sample means at least 500 people, not related from all over the country. Only Bulgarians and Croats in the Balkan have that. We really need big samples of Serbs, Albanians and Greeks :)
    In Serbia two last scientific researches (2010, 2012) conducted by American scientists are contributed more real picture, samples are 282 total. E1b1b1a1 is 17,3% and 18,5%, with all researches in Serbia E1b1b1a1 is about 18-19% (in Eupedia is 20,5%). I don't know samples in Bulgaria, but probably E1b1b1a1 is similar.

    Opinion is that E1b1b1a1 in Serbs is most Thracian, but there are opinions that Thracians were dominantly I2a2+R1a.

    Your first assumption about the lack of J2 in Arbereshe attracts attention. Could the tribes be so different?

    And your second assumption about assimilated people is interesting. When that assimilation could happen? Arbereshe emigrated in 15th and 16th century.

    You are right, J2 is bigger in Gegs (Gheg), J2: Geg Albanians 23,3%, (Ferri et al.), Tosk Albanians 16,5 (Ferri et al.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    In Serbia two last scientific researches (2010, 2012) conducted by American scientists are contributed more real picture, samples are 282 total. E1b1b1a1 is 17,3% and 18,5%, with all researches in Serbia E1b1b1a1 is about 18-19% (in Eupedia is 20,5%). I don't know samples in Bulgaria, but probably E1b1b1a1 is similar.

    Opinion is that E1b1b1a1 in Serbs is most Thracian, but there are opinions that Thracians were dominantly I2a2+R1a.

    Your first assumption about the lack of J2 in Arbereshe attracts attention. Could the tribes be so different?

    And your second assumption about assimilated people is interesting. When that assimilation could happen? Arbereshe emigrated in 15th and 16th century.

    You are right, J2 is bigger in Gegs (Gheg), J2: Geg Albanians 23,3%, (Ferri et al.), Tosk Albanians 16,5 (Ferri et al.).
    I think Serbs need one sample of minimum 500 samples, combining is not good. I believe Thrachians are E-V13,J2b2 and R1b-HT 35. I think both R1a and I2a in Balkan are mostly connected with Slavs, both groups are big in Balkan Slavs but not in Albanians and Greeks. The difference in the Balkan Slavs and Albanian/Greeks is the amount of R1b-HT35/J2b2,J1 and R1a-M458,R1a-Z280,I2a-Din . E-V13 is big in everybody:)
    As for the second assumption maybe 17th-18th century, some Orthodox Albanians have become Bulgarians/Macedonians and Serbs/Montenegrins and a lot have become Greeks, some Muslim Bulgarians and Serbs have become Albanians is my theory. Religion was really strong thing, a lot of Torbesh in FYROM have become Albanians lately 18th-19th century).
    Internet theories that J2 in Albos is from Turks are one big joke, coz J2b2 is a Balkan group and J-M530 and J-M67 are Med/West Asian groups which are in Europe from before the time of Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    I think Serbs need one sample of minimum 500 samples, combining is not good. I believe Thrachians are E-V13,J2b2 and R1b-HT 35. I think both R1a and I2a in Balkan are mostly connected with Slavs, both groups are big in Balkan Slavs but not in Albanians and Greeks. The difference in the Balkan Slavs and Albanian/Greeks is the amount of R1b-HT35/J2b2,J1 and R1a-M458,R1a-Z280,I2a-Din . E-V13 is big in everybody:)
    As for the second assumption maybe 17th-18th century, some Orthodox Albanians have become Bulgarians/Macedonians and Serbs/Montenegrins and a lot have become Greeks, some Muslim Bulgarians and Serbs have become Albanians is my theory. Religion was really strong thing, a lot of Torbesh in FYROM have become Albanians lately 18th-19th century).
    Internet theories that J2 in Albos is from Turks are one big joke, coz J2b2 is a Balkan group and J-M530 and J-M67 are Med/West Asian groups which are in Europe from before the time of Jesus.
    Yes, internet theories are frivolous, and we do not take in account. However your assumption about assimilation is very interesting.

    I always thought Thracians as dominantly E1b1b1a1 people (with mix another haplogroups), but here in forum there is big group who argue that Thracians are dominantly I2a2+R1a.

    Movements of R1a are interesting, because carriers of R1a according to science came three times in Balkans and only last time refers to the expansion of Slavs. Regueiro et al. (2012), Klyosov (2009) and another scientists claim that R1a is the oldest haplogroup in the Balkans (of the existing).

    I started thread about haplogroup of people who developed the culture at Lepen Whirl, east Serbia, 7 millennia ago. Researches of people in past would give a more realistic picture, we still here talking about assumptions, less about facts, essential tool (based on facts) are results of haplogroups.

    We know now that R1a in Balkans in good part is not connected to Slavs. One of key questions is whether I2a2 is connected to Slavs, wholly or mainly on the one hand, or less (or not at all) on the other hand.

    My opinion is that clarification of Thracian Y-DNA will lead to a clearer picture.

    You write that events of the last few hundred years changed the situation. They could (ethnic cleasing, immigrations/emigrations). But assimilation don't change haplogroups, carriers of haplogroups remain, just in the case of assimilation they can be part of another nation (and religion). Your assumption about assimilation in related to my question is valuable.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Well R1a in Bulgarians and Serbs is either M458 or Z280 both are extremely connected with Slavs, so either we have them from the Slavs, or if we have them from the Thrachians then Trachians are proto Slavs. But it makes no sense. The only thing that make sense to me is
    Thrachians- E-V13,J2b2, R1b-HT35 with
    Slavs- R1a- M458,R1a-Z280, I2a- Din

    E-V13 is the main thing in the Balkan and Thracian is what connects us all, so I see it perfectly
    I agree with u on assimilation, but Albanians, Greeks and Romanians have more R1b-HT35 and J2b2 then Bulgarians/Macedonians,Serbs/Montenegrins and Croats/Boshniaks
    Balkan Slavs on the other hand have more R-M458,R-Z280 and I2a Din
    E-V13 everybody has it , so it is from people that we really,really numerous

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Well R1a in Bulgarians and Serbs is either M458 or Z280 both are extremely connected with Slavs, so either we have them from the Slavs, or if we have them from the Thrachians then Trachians are proto Slavs. But it makes no sense. The only thing that make sense to me is
    Thrachians- E-V13,J2b2, R1b-HT35 with
    Slavs- R1a- M458,R1a-Z280, I2a- Din

    E-V13 is the main thing in the Balkan and Thracian is what connects us all, so I see it perfectly
    I agree with u on assimilation, but Albanians, Greeks and Romanians have more R1b-HT35 and J2b2 then Bulgarians/Macedonians,Serbs/Montenegrins and Croats/Boshniaks
    Balkan Slavs on the other hand have more R-M458,R-Z280 and I2a Din
    E-V13 everybody has it , so it is from people that we really,really numerous
    (I think that it is no correct what you pair Montenegrins wih Serbs and Bosniacs with Croats, for example a lot of papers with MDS scaling locate Serbs and Bosniacs close each other (and Romanians), and Croats close to Slovenes and something close to Ukrainians. But it doesn't matter for our discussion.)

    In Serbia Regueiro et al. (2012) find mostly R1a-M198 (14,6%), who is very old. But they don't find Z280, Z283, etc. Maybe they all subclades highlight as M198, but they find M458. I will collect more information.

    However, it is extremely important whether Thracians are ancestors of Serbs and Bulgarians. If so they should have significant share of I2a2 and/or R1a, probably both. You use terms proto Slavs for Thracian tribes, hm, I don't know is it correct. But if you are right many things are a lot easier to explain. One well-shod scientific research Thracian haplogroups in Serbia and Bulgaria (and elsewhere), with unequivocal research samples of Thracians in ancient times, could give clearlier picture, maybe confirm your assumptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    (I think that it is no correct what you pair Montenegrins wih Serbs and Bosniacs with Croats, for example a lot of papers with MDS scaling locate Serbs and Bosniacs close each other (and Romanians), and Croats close to Slovenes and something close to Ukrainians. But it doesn't matter for our discussion.)

    In Serbia Regueiro et al. (2012) find mostly R1a-M198 (14,6%), who is very old. But they don't find Z280, Z283, etc. Maybe they all subclades highlight as M198, but they find M458. I will collect more information.

    However, it is extremely important whether Thracians are ancestors of Serbs and Bulgarians. If so they should have significant share of I2a2 and/or R1a, probably both. You use terms proto Slavs for Thracian tribes, hm, I don't know is it correct. But if you are right many things are a lot easier to explain. One well-shod scientific research Thracian haplogroups in Serbia and Bulgaria (and elsewhere), with unequivocal research samples of Thracians in ancient times, could give clearlier picture, maybe confirm your assumptions.
    Interesting, in Europe there is Z280(a lot in Serbia) and M458, other subgroups are the viking one(not really seen in Balkan) and the really old one called old Europe- ultra rare, still more common in West and North Europe and then u have the asian and arab ones. 90-95% of R1a in Balkan is either M458 or Z280 but we need good data on Serbs, Greeks and Albanians as Thrachian and other old bones

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Interesting, in Europe there is Z280(a lot in Serbia) and M458, other subgroups are the viking one(not really seen in Balkan) and the really old one called old Europe- ultra rare, still more common in West and North Europe and then u have the asian and arab ones. 90-95% of R1a in Balkan is either M458 or Z280 but we need good data on Serbs, Greeks and Albanians as Thrachian and other old bones
    You're right.

    I once saw on the Internet (of course this is not a science), some Ethiopian equated all family E-M215, and all peoples who have over 30% E-M215 and all of its subclades put it in the sample basket. So some nations in Asia and one in Europe derived as black peoples. It's a wrong way.

    I don't like when I see that in scientific researches authors give root family without subclades. When someone reads n% of R1a-M198, it can be M198, M417, Z647, L664, S224, Z283, Z282, etc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Sample means at least 500 people, not related from all over the country. Only Bulgarians and Croats in the Balkan have that.
    Which are the most relevant researches in Bulgaria (authors, title, link)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Which are the most relevant researches in Bulgaria (authors, title, link)?
    Here http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056779 there is one more u can find it somewhere in this forums, also the one on Croatis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Here http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056779 there is one more u can find it somewhere in this forums, also the one on Croatis
    Поздравления. Very serious research with the samples of 808 people by regions. Yes, such research is lacking Serbia.

    For me it is little surprise that Bularians are close to Serbs (key is MDS scaling B.).

    Authors write (quote):

    "This analysis confirms the position of Bulgarians close to Macedonian Greeks and in the proximity of Slavic populations from the Western Balkans, which is not the case with the remainder of the Slavic populations considered."

    Bulgarians, Romanians, Serbs and probably Bosniacs can be one cluster. Ukrainians, Croats, Hungarians, Russians are another cluster and they are far. (Authors entered Osijek's Croats, but Osijek is not relevant for this discussion, it is only one town with 115,000 inhabitants, one of the easternmost towns of Croatia, and in this town lived a lot of Serbs and Hungarians, mostly they assimilated today.)

    It is interesting big diversification J haplogroups, a lot of branches, and R haplogroup too (perhaps for R would be similar in Serbia if scientists perform so detailed researches).
    Last edited by Garrick; 09-09-13 at 00:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Here http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056779 there is one more u can find it somewhere in this forums, also the one on Croatis
    I see clearly by the marker data on the link , that E-v13 was clearly coming from east balkan lands to west balkan lands. maybe the migration from this E into Albanian lands occurred after the genocide by the Romans on the illyrian people .

    to confirm this, we need data on thrace province which is under Turkey now

    The I marker is a natural for eastern balkan lands.

    The odd thing is the albanian J2-M102 marker is missing in the eastern balkan data


    I would like to know if these thracian people had the E-V13 marker.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom

    They are the only thracians that went with Alexander the Great on his Persian wars and another odd thing is they are lost to history and shortly after albanoi on the other side of the Balkans appear
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    I see clearly by the marker data on the link , that E-v13 was clearly coming from east balkan lands to west balkan lands.e .
    What suggests you that?

    As far as i'm aware highest variance in Balkans of that clade in one in Greece and another one in Bosnia?

    The odd thing is the albanian J2-M102 marker is missing in the eastern balkan data
    The most common J clade in Albanians is J2-M241(J2b2) which is 3.8% in Bulgaria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    What suggests you that?

    As far as i'm aware highest variance in Balkans of that clade in one in Greece and another one in Bosnia?
    By the equal spread of E-v13 in the bulgarian link. it means it was not an isolated migration of people. The albanian E-v13 is all in a blob, it can mean a single migration.

    The E-v13 could have arrived in thrace/bulgaria with the persians in 500BC. The area was owned/ruled by the Persians then

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    What suggests you that?

    As far as i'm aware highest variance in Balkans of that clade in one in Greece and another one in Bosnia?



    The most common J clade in Albanians is J2-M241(J2b2) which is 3.8% in Bulgaria.


    Uploaded with ImageShack.us


    albanians have 14.5% and kosovo 14.1 % of J-M102 and
    albanians have 3.6% and kosovo 3.1% of J-M410

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Ok then, but you should have better said M241, since that's the specific clade.

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    Or lets make it easy and call it J2b2 one of the Balkan markers. J2b1 is really rare( a bit in Slavs and Indians, so it was most likely one of the IE markers). J2b* is even more rare :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    In Serbia two last scientific researches (2010, 2012) conducted by American scientists are contributed more real picture, samples are 282 total. E1b1b1a1 is 17,3% and 18,5%, with all researches in Serbia E1b1b1a1 is about 18-19% (in Eupedia is 20,5%). I don't know samples in Bulgaria, but probably E1b1b1a1 is similar.

    Opinion is that E1b1b1a1 in Serbs is most Thracian, but there are opinions that Thracians were dominantly I2a2+R1a.

    Your first assumption about the lack of J2 in Arbereshe attracts attention. Could the tribes be so different?

    And your second assumption about assimilated people is interesting. When that assimilation could happen? Arbereshe emigrated in 15th and 16th century.

    You are right, J2 is bigger in Gegs (Gheg), J2: Geg Albanians 23,3%, (Ferri et al.), Tosk Albanians 16,5 (Ferri et al.).
    the kosova albanians have 45.7% ev-13,the 2 biggest tribes of kosova is kransnichi an some from kelmendi,both these tribes are from north albania,,so i dont belive the tests were don in north albania malesia because both tribes are from malesia,,,so i think malesia albanian ghegs carrier the highest ammount of ev-13,,45,7% ev-13 is very high,,i belive when serbs moved downwards they mixed with ev-13 but failed to assiumate them like they did in bosnia,an croatia,montenegro also has high percent of ev-13 an they also are from malesia north albania,,very interesting thoughts but i think ev-13 was a first in gheg albanians an we know that the ghegs are very tribal an dont like to mix with other cultures i am a malesia albanian an i know that the tribes of north albania an into kosova only mix within same tribes its laws of our people..an the ksova albanians were once catholics an in catholic laws the kanun i lek dukagjini is still used by the albanians of krasnichi an rugova albanians of kelmendi, both were catholic tribes that were pushed into kosova with the albanians an serbs their,,in 2005 oxford an standford had done samples their an it very high in ev-13..

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Ok then, but you should have better said M241, since that's the specific clade.
    I dont know how correct these charts are because from charts i have read is much diffrent from oxford an standford uni,

    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html in here you can see the diffrence if you abstract that is for free you will see,

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    wrong relpy

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    ev-13.jpg Look at this chart

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Ok then, but you should have better said M241, since that's the specific clade.
    albanians seem to have the highest J1 in the balkans according to Battaglia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    albanians seem to have the highest J1 in the balkans according to Battaglia
    Albanians where propebly the inhabitants of Balkan together with greeks. Then the slavic people moved in and mixed up.

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