Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

Just pls stop with your trollling and don't derail this thread with this so called help of Serbia. You have to provide first to the Albanians who are citizens of Serbia the medical care, because the government of Albania and Kosova are investing money in your country because this citizens are abandoned by your government.
About our scholars, we have people respected world wide and not criminals and charlatans like your pseudo scholars. TBH, i will feel shame if our scholars were at this level.
Now pls again, stop derailing this thread. You are free to open a new thread where you can tell us about the glory of your country. If you insist with this trollling posts, i will open a new thread about this criminals that you consider scholars.
Here in this thread there is a question for you, without answer:

I will ignore some nonsenses.

Yes, we know what is thread. And you introduced Deretic as scientist, what is not seriously because he is charlatan as Albanian Koco Danaj.

Now we can back to the thread.

Aromanians are important for this thread too.

Muslim Albanian Ali Pasha Tepelena and his troops destroyed Moscopole and Aromanian land and Aromanians had to escape in neighboring countries, they fled to Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, and Romania.
 
Diurpaneus
Please, excuse me because two posts which are not linked with thread but I had to put (Deretic is not scientist and nothing to do with history).

What do you think about Aromanians who had to left Albania and they fled to Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, and Romania. Are you investigate them?
 
I will ignore some nonsenses.

Yes, we know what is thread. And you introduced Deretic as scientist, what is not seriously because he is charlatan as Albanian Koco Danaj.

Now we can back to the thread.

Aromanians are important for this thread too.

Muslim Albanian Ali Pasha Tepelena and his troops destroyed Moscopole and Aromanian land and Aromanians had to escape in neighboring countries, they fled to Greece, Macedonia, Serbia, and Romania.

Don't you feel shame from yourself?
 
Cimpoi(bagpipe,plural form cimpoaie) is a neuter substantive,in Romanian
the singular form is masculine,while the plural,feminine.
This singular comes from a defemininized Vulgar form of the Latin symphonia,
cymponium(neuter) or cymponius(masculine).
The Romanian neuter gender is inherited from Latin.


the fall of the intervocalic "n":


Latin granum,Romanian grau


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/symphonia#Latin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zampogna

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsampouna

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cimpoi




"Une chose me paraît sûre en tout cas : la çampona de Garcilaso
comme celle de Sannazaro, c'est bien quelque chose comme la
gaita galicienne et asturienne, la bagpipe écossaise. Et peut-être
en est-il de même de la çapona (?) de l'Archiprêtre : lecture du
reste discutable, à laquelle le manuscrit de Tolède substitue
ca(n)pana. Et rien ne prouve que, là où il parle de çinjonias, ou
de simfonia, il fasse allusion au même instrument.""


http://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/hispa_0007-4640_1941_num_43_2_2906.pdf

http://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/hispa_0007-4640_1949_num_51_2_3184.pdf



http://www.personal.psu.edu/ejp10/blogs/thinking/2008/02/french-teenagers-disagree-on-n.html


We can see the same differentiation in the case of flute,the Spanish,Portuguese,
Albanian and Greek terms are feminine,contrasting with the Romanian neuter.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flauta

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/φλογέρα#Greek

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flojere#Albanian

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fluier
 
I thought you were claiming to be central Italian? There is no way a Central Italian would get 25-40% Asia Minor on National Geographic. How could you have gotten your Genographic results and not looked at the autosomal make up of Tuscans on it? They are 4% Asia Minor, lower than Greeks and Romanians, which makes sense from everything else we know about them, particularly in relationship to Greeks, where they plot north of even the more northern Greeks.
https://s22.postimg.io/y9x754ylb/Geno_2_0_South_Europe.jpg

The genetic projects like National Geographic or Family Tree DNA rely on
circumstances,without having a statistical basis.
This database from Family Tree DNA contains only the results of the Romanian Ashkenazi Jews.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/romania/dna-results


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Romania?iframe=yresults


I have been to Italy and Spain,their most common anthropological type
is Dinaric(it can also be expanded to Portugal,including Madeira's
Cristiano Ronaldo) ,the Italians have also an important Alpine strain.
In fact, the Dinaric type is consistently present in Ireland,not to mention France,England or
Germany.




Federico Piovaccari


View attachment 7975


Portuguese football coach Tony Conceicao


View attachment 7976

Somehow,the Americans,the Canadians and the Latin Americans are pretty much Dinaric.
Now that the 3/4 of the World proudly represent this type,I would reverse
the exercise,who AREN'T Dinaric?


Maybe the Russians?


If in Romania they have used the Basarab surname ,in Russia I will switch to Volohov
and Vlasov:


vlasov_ak_0.jpg

Власов-1.jpg


Vlasov1.jpg


Vladimir-Volokhov-Belarus2.jpg



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404992/


http://press.nationalgeographic.com/2012/07/26/basarab-surname-relation-vlad-the-impaler/


https://www.opensocietyfoundations....-project/grantees/national-geographic-society







About Romania

The never-ending transhumace had constantly moved the shepherds,starting with the Proto-Romanians,
from the mountains to the plains and back,from a region to another and vice-versa,creating a
strong uniformizing effect. Anthropologically,it would have only meant tendencies
towards Dinaricization.

EDIT

"Hanesh well says (p. 39) : "The unity of the Roumanian race in the trials of its early days, was maintained thanks to the shepherds. Passing with their flocks over the Carpathians and the Balkans and the broad Danubian plains, the Roumanians in the pastoral stage kept in constant touch with one another, spread and preserved the same language and the same ways. In time, part of the Roumanian race became farmers, part (after the founding of the Roumanian principalities) settled down as business men and officials, but part still remained shepherds, carrying on the same manner of life as their forebears of a thousand years before. Even today, these shepherds follow the same paths from the mountain to the plain, and the plain to the mountain, and continually cross the Baragan, the Dobrudja and Bessarabia."

http://brunodam.blog.kataweb.it/2006/10/


http://www.cerphg.unideb.hu/PDF/2013_1/3_calin_nyomda.pdf


............. .............. ........................ ...................

EDIT

At least uncle Leo was a Jew.


EDIT

Uralophobia or Turkophobia weren't the themes of this post,because I don't hate these people,
it was only about taking things out of context for economic purposes.
 
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Cimpoi(bagpipe,plural form cimpoaie) is a neuter substantive,in Romanian
the singular form is masculine,while the plural,feminine.
This singular comes from a defemininized Vulgar form of the Latin symphonia,
cymponium(neuter) or cymponius(masculine).
The Romanian neuter gender is inherited from Latin.

I have found a better similarity,the Latin and French forms
are feminine,unlike the neuter ones from Romanian.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/landica


The word seems to had been taboo even for the Romans,we can
clearly see this from its occurrence within the Romance
languages,being preserved only in French and Romanian.
It couldn't have been different,because it represents
the rude form of a rude word.


Although the Proto-Romanian/Vlachs were considered,perhaps,of
vicious vulgarity by the Byzantine authors, it can be hardly
concluded that their pre-Roman ancestors had proudly adopt the
term.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=tM...AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=ivanko vlach lamb&f=false


"In celebration of the marriage between Hrs and Kamytzes daughter Dobromir
gorged himself of food and wine. His wife, however, ate in reluctance
from plates placed in front of her respecting the code for behavior for
newlyweds. Hrs annoyed at her eating habits commanded her to eat with him.
And when she didn’t comply immediately he flew into a rage. Speaking
his native tongue(s) (Macedonian, Vlach, or both) for some time he
spoke to his wife in Greek (Rhomaoi) with contempt
“Do not eat or drink”.(macedoniantruth.org)



Judging from the word's dispersion,I propose two theories,which
don't exclude each other,on the contrary:


1. This term could have only circulated through the army,both Gaul
and Dacia(plus the Danubian Moesia) were heavily militarized,
because of their strategic importance.
A further connection includes its almost exclusive medical usage in
writings.


2. Romanian has Northern Latin terms(see the earlier posts),the presence
of the related French word points to this category.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=60...ChDoAQgfMAE#v=onepage&q=latin landica&f=false


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_profanity#Land.C4.ABca:_the_clitoris


https://books.google.ro/books?id=GD...zAD#v=onepage&q=latin landica medical&f=false
 
"In addition to the activity itself, shepherds were the factors that contributed to keepthe unity and the national consciousness in all the provinces inhabited by Romanians bypreserving the language, toponymy, religion and traditional customs and transmitting themfrom generation to generation."



"Themost difficult situation occurred in the first years of communist period when the flock weredramaticly reduced by the politics of forced collectivization.The transhumance was even forbidden between 1952 and 1955, being again stimulatedbetween 1965 and 1989, when the shepeherds used to be one of the few milionaires ofSocialist Romania (Drăgănescu, 1998)."

http://www.cerphg.unideb.hu/PDF/2013_1/3_calin_nyomda.pdf


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...torm-romanian-parliament-protest-sheepdog-law


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap...n-shepherds-protest-law-number-sheepdogs.html


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/1...ament-grounds-to-protest-law-that-limits.html




https://www.google.ro/url?sa=i&rct=..._6-WtQmEYpNalV2yDk0pnb9Q&ust=1474195025152627

"It is worth mentioning that the current Romanian prime-minister Dacian Ciolos, a former EU commissioner for agriculture, was a member of the “Friends of Europe", an association funded by the Open Society foundation. A fact he forgot to disclose to the Romanian people. However, his government was often referred to as “the Government of Soros” due to the fact that it is entirely formed from former NGO activists, Soros students, managers of multinational corporations and ardent Atlanticists. So, this country today is openly ruled by the American billionaire."


http://www.firstfarms.dk/en/about-firstfarms/firstfarms-romania/

http://www.arc2020.eu/2015/07/new-report-land-grabbing-romania/

"Land grabbing" is an innapropriate term ,because the "investor's" foreign
state offers consultation and financial support to facilitate this colonization.


"Petrom's huge workforce of 59,000, almost 10 times bigger than OMV's 6,100."(the figures at the privatization of Petrom)

economie.jpg


http://www.euronews.com/2014/12/05/...-oil-and-gas-finds-fuel-europe-s-energy-hopes


http://www.roconsulboston.com/Pages/InfoPages/Businesspages/ExxonOMVGas.html

With these links I try to explain the genetic structure of Romania.
The Neolithic and the Bronze Age are well-known,but there had to be
an Oil Age too,to deal with burnings.
The pastoralists' wandering had just followed the instinct.

"There isn't always a direct connection between the genetic structure of a population
and its cultural or linguistic background"(Florin Stanciu ,the author of a DNA study).
Then, he and the moderator of "Garantat 100%" had an interesting smile.
He labels the Romanian population as "strongly Slavic"(that would have upset Coon and others),
BECAUSE IT HAS A SIMILAR GENETIC STRUCTURE
WITH THE SERBS,MACEDONIANS,CROATIANS AND BOSNIANS.
Although in the paper he admits that these connections can also indicate the Paleo-Balkanic element:

"Pe baza acestor rezultate, populaţia românească de sex masculin (pentru cei 9 şi 12 loci Y-STR analizați), este mai apropiată genetic de Macedonia, Serbia, Bosnia-Herţegovina şi Croația."

"În ceea ce priveşte similitudinile genetice dintre aceste populații, prin extrapolare, se pot emite două ipoteze principale: a) asemănarea genetică între aceste populații reflectă distribuţia unei populaţii paleo-balcanice, cum ar fi populația tracică sau b) evenimentul istoric recent cu cea mai mare influenţă asupra structurii genetice a populaţiei actuale, a fost migraţia slavă din nord-estul Europei către Peninsula Balcanică."

He didn't mention anything about the database either:

"Un număr de 10.884 probe biologice (saliva, sânge, fire de par, etc.) au fost recoltate de la persoane neînrudite (persoane condamnate şi alte categorii de persoane implicate în procese judiciare - suspecţi, victime, martori, rude ale unor persoane sau cadavre neidentificate etc.) 6, în acord cu Legea Nr. 76/2008 privind organizarea şi funcţionarea Sistemului Naţional de Date Genetice Judiciare.
În vederea folosirii persoanelor condamnate în studiul populațional de față, s-a ținut cont în primul rând de Legea Nr. 275 din 4 iulie 2006 care prevede la Art. 11"

http://www.fundatia.ro/en/integrate...pported-grant-trust-civil-society-central-and

The closest countries in the Y-STR analysis were Macedonia and Serbia,pointing to
haplogroups like I2a and E-V13.

This is not an invitation to extremism,but only a response to degenerated ideas,
actions and behaviours.

EDIT:

https://books.google.ro/books?id=ht...AbgQ6AEIJDAC#v=onepage&q=vlach coarse&f=false
 
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"Type of organization and
association between cattle owners, “the celnic” at Aromanian shepherds and the “the
păcurar” at Romanians, had similar functions".

http://www.cerphg.unideb.hu/PDF/2013_1/3_calin_nyomda.pdf


The Balkan Romance languages also have correspondences to the Romanian term,
such as the Aromanian picurar and picular,Megleno-Romanian picurar,
and Istro-Romanian pecuror.
These forms don't divert from the original Latin/Romance structure,
unlike Romanian,where "e"/"i" had shifted to "ă".

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pecorarius


"In Tosk there exists (stressed) ë, an equivalent of Rum â, î, BulgЪ ъ .
This Tosk vowel corresponds to various nasal vowels in Geg."
(Orel,"Albanian Dictionary")


Actually, the common vowel with the Bulgarian and Tosk Albanian is "ă",
Orel was fortunately confused by the fact that the Romanian"â"/ "î" is the same
with the usual Slavic pronunciation of the Bulgarian character,
but it is no less true that in Bulgarian it(also) sounds like in Albanian
and Romanian.


The Romanian vowel is strongly related to certain phonetical shifts
that took place within the words of Latin origin.


Romanian bătrân,Latin veteranus
Romanian păr,Latin pilus
Romanian plămân,Latin pulmonem
Romanian băşică,Latin vesica
Romanian păsa,Latin pensare
Romanian vătăma,Latin victimare


This similarity suggests that,despite their actual location,the Tosks
have formed even further northwards,being in contact with the Romanians
and Bulgarians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_alphabet

EDIT:

The vowel "ă" is also involved in the sound shifts of the Southern Danubian
Romance,but its occurrence is rarer.


Aromanian bitãrnu
Arom,Istro-R and Megleno-R per
Arom. pălmună (plimună), istr. plumăre.
Arom. bișică, megl. bișocă
Arom. vatăm, vătămare, megl. vatăm
 
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The Vlach shepherds' rivalry is one of the main themes of this old Romanian folk ballad called "Miorita"("The Young Ewe"),its ancient origin is supported by the above link.

"Near a low foothill
At Heaven’s doorsill,
Where the trail’s descending
To the plain and ending,
Here three shepherds keep
Their three flocks of sheep,
One, Moldavian,
One, Transylvanian
And one, Vrancean.
Now, the Vrancean
And the Transylvanian
In their thoughts, conniving,
Have laid plans, contriving
At the close of day
To ambush and slay
The Moldavian;
He, the wealthier one,
Had more flocks to keep,
Handsome, long-horned sheep,
Horses, trained and sound,
And the fiercest hounds."

http://spiritromanesc.go.ro/Miorita -eng.html


Another Proto-Romanian motif is the messenger sent to lie the shepherd's mother,
trying to hide his death,the Old Aromanian funeral traditions similarly implied that the
herdsman's fellows would announce his mother about the departure of his son abroad
(or in the mountains)with his sheeps.The motif seems to be of pre-Christian Greek-Roman origin.

"How I met my death,
Tell them not a breath;
Say I could not tarry,
I have gone to marry
............................

Should you meet somewhere,
My old mother, little,
With her white wool girdle,
Eyes with their tears flowing,
Over the plains going,
Asking one and all,
Saying to them all,
’Who has ever known,
Who has seen my own
Shepherd fine to see,
Slim as a willow tree,
With his dear face, bright
As the milk-foam, white,
His small moustache, right
As the young wheat’s ear,
With his hair so dear,
Like plumes of the crow
Little eyes that glow
Like the ripe black sloe"



pg.8:

http://www.proiectavdhela.ro/pdf/n_saramandu_miorita.pdf





"In a traditional Romanian funeral song (available on Romanian EthnographicLandscapes) a mother mourns her son, comparing his short life to a garden flower
and with the morning dew. The most noteworthy thing about this song is the
mother’s conviction that her son’s life is over (unlike the garden flower which will
grow again). Nothing was left from the famous Dacian certitude of immortality, and
no explicit Christian hope for resurrection either. He is dead forever leaving his
mother “in deep sorrow”. The mother also mentions that she would have lived long
enough to organize his wedding instead of the funeral ceremony. An interesting
variation of this motif is also present in Mioriţa, where the mother of the young
shepherd, eventually killed by his companions, is told that her son disappeared, not
because he died, but because he married an Emperor’s daughter. The grief is too
great to be endured"

"This attitude is ritualistic and it does not depend on private feelings.
Obviously the Roman influence was so strong that the famous Dacian “joy of death”
seems almost forgotten."


http://www.philologica-jassyensia.ro/upload/VIII_2_Cap-Bun.pdf
 
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The Sampul tapestry's importance consists in the fact
that it skips the conventionality of the Greek-Roman art,representing
peoples' faces simply as they really were.


The man is Dinaric,most likely of Macedonian ancestry or from the
Macedonian-Greek-Paleo-Balkanic spectrum.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/UrumqiWarrior.jpg


"His headband could be a diadem, a symbol of kingship in the Hellenistic world
– and represented on Macedonian and other Greek coins."



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampul_tapestry



"In the army there were 25,000 Macedonians, 7,600 Greeks, and 7,000 Thracians and Illyrians, but the chief officers were all Macedonians, and Macedonians also commanded the foreign troops"

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/AlexandertheGreat.html


"Because the two symbols of Achilles (Chiron) and Heracles (Nemean lion skin) are combined,the tapestry might also be a representation of Alexander the Great — he referred to these as histwo ancestors and was often represented with large eyes."

"Descended from the Argead kings of Argos, Alexander claimed Heracles as his ancestor; thus he was consideredto belong to the first generation in the lineage of this royal family that started with Heracles’s legendary son,Temenos. Alexander believed himself to be a relative of Achilles through his mother as well. Although the blue-eyedking represented on the Sampul tapestry does not really look like Alexander, the association with Chiron andHeracles should indicate a certain degree of ethnic connection, if not a lineage."
(SINO-PLATONIC PAPERS)

EDIT

My observations antedate copy-paste.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/c0/23/e0/c023e07ad9a625525d0856491c172dd6.jpg

EDIT2

He had probably acquired some Central Asian/Bactrian sets of genes,but his main traits
remain Dinaric.In any case,if there was a Khotanese stylization,the effects are obviously
milder,because the man strongly resembles by his Dinaricity,the Aromanians,the Macedonian
Greeks,the Macedonian Macedonians,the Greeks or the other Balkanic people.
 
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I was recently to Madrid,in a coffee-shop I have met two Spaniards and the discussion went
towards their opinion about the Romanians.One of them smiled at me "The only problem with the
Romanians is that they work too much!",
"why?",I answered,"I think that's because of Communism",he replied;
"It's much more than that;they work hard,because they want to have much,so they can joyfully
and proudly present to their neighbours and friends what they have accomplished,saying
'I have done something in my life',that's our old way of doing things",was my response.
This mentality also exists in the Aromanian families.



He countinued,saying that he knew some Romanians from Spain and one of his friends has
Romanian employees,who always stress him about punctuality and to keep the
workplace in a good condition.
The last thing he told me was,"the men are OK,very sociable,you can laugh and party for hours
with them,but the ladies are hard to conquer","por que?","because they are Orthodox,the Catholics are
allowing too much";I sincerely disapproved him,"It can't be",but he insisted.
I wanted to speak about the women,telling that "It's true ,they are well-mannered,but it has also to do with
cleverness".
The man was not a dumb,he works at Prado.


This image can be easily found in the rural novels,
strongly contrasting to the Romanian/Vlach pattern
created during Communism,where the man always finds the moral
strength and wisdom to return to decency,which in his
case is identified with misery.


Even in the anti-Communist novel Morometii, the head of the
family accepts,with a sarcastic wisdom, his condition,but their sons won't,
in the old manner.

https://books.google.ro/books?id=SX...ge&q=morometii novel family's capital&f=false




The pre-Communist novels clearly present the reality,where the shepherds
and the peasants have ( using moral methods or not,based on intelligence or initiave)
to become wealthy.Way beyond the physical advantages,stands their will to gain a better
social status.
Ion is such a case,he realizes that,despite being the best worker from the village,his low rank
within the community follows him everywhere,and he can't stand it,planning to marry a rich girl,
instead of his lover.The power of this novel is that,even today many Romanian peasants
still can identify themselves with the hero.


Although their strategy seems flawless, having in many moments cold blood,
their great ambition makes them psychologically unstable to a certain degree,
both innerly and outerly expressed.

http://theculturetrip.com/europe/ro...xploring-the-boundaries-of-romanian-identity/


https://books.google.ro/books?id=gw...ge&q=ion novel liviu rebreanu peasant&f=false
 
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The Sampul tapestry's importance consists in the fact
that it skips the conventionality of the Greek-Roman art,representing
peoples' faces simply as they really were.

"His headband could be a diadem, a symbol of kingship in the Hellenistic world
– and represented on Macedonian and other Greek coins."



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampul_tapestry

wow,

I had never heard of that,

that is really interesting,
 
Tracking the Romanian habit of having much(non-Communist element).


It may sound odd,but those fluffy sheeps have made big bucks at least
since the Early Middle Ages,way before the English wool/cloth had
reached Anvers.The Vlachs enter the history described as shepherds,
merchants,warriors and horsemen.The linguistic evidence prove that
the commercial activity was, like the other above-mentioned attributes,
originary,many words pertaining to this domain were preserved from Latin
(Grigore Brancusi,"Introducere in Istoria Limbii Romane"),representing
the great majority of the economical ones:
vinde(to sell),cumpara(to buy),imprumuta(to borrow),negot(business),
schimba(to change),datorie(debt),pierde(to lose),incarca(to load),
descarca(unload),pret(price),castiga(to earn,gain),capata(ultimately
from capitalis;to earn,gain)etc.


https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/câștiga

http://www.agerpres.ro/engleza-dest...ania-ialomita-county-a-brief-history-14-08-19

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orașul_de_Floci


"According to old documents and maps, thecommercial road going down from central Europe tothe center of Transylvania passed the Danubethrough Vadu Oii shallow, following Ialomiţa Riverto the Black Sea. Ever since Mircea cel Bătrân reignthere was a custom house near Vadu Oii shallow andalso a gantry at the Danube shore for trading ships.Markets formed nearby the custom house and thegantry where traders stopped, every so often at first,then permanently. Around the market developedlater Floci Town"



Vadu Oii is the place from where you can cross the Danube,it means the Sheep's Ford.


http://www.turist-in-romania.ro/ialomita/obiective/OrasuldeFloci.pdf






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotin



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotino


The Vlach's commercial and military spirit had led them to create a
concentrated form of autonomy called The Vlach Law.
We have to remember this form of organization,otherwise will become
like Congo.

http://www.romania-insider.com/romania-demographic-bomb-natural-decline-2016/

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/35/181.html
 
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"[The Vlachs] never kept their word to anyone, not even to the ancient Roman Emperors. Having been attacked in war by Emperor Trajan and having been defeated totally, they were subdued and their King, named Decebal, was killed and his head was put on a pike and brought to the city of the Romans. These [Vlachs] are, in fact, the so-called Dacians, also called Bessians [Bessoi]. Earlier they lived in the vicinity of the Danube and Saos, a river which we now call Sava, where the Serbians live today, and [later] withdrew to their inaccessible fortifications. Relying upon these fortifications, they feigned friendship and submission to the ancient Roman Emperors and then swept down from their strongholds and plundered the Roman provinces. Therefore, the exasperated Romans crushed them. And these left the region: some of them were dispersed to Epirus and Macedonia, and a large number established themselves in Hellas."
the text from Kekaumenos, "
Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area", Elemér Illyés



For a Byzantine general like Kekaumenos, "along the Danube and Sava" obviously meant the land east of
Sirmium,towards Belgrade,Branicevo and Vidin.Sirmium,the most important Danubian town
for the Byzantines,a place of great strategic importance,especially in the relations with the
Hungarians,must have been eventually one of the main sources of informations for Kekaumenos.


The Byzantine military chief of Sirmium had the title of "strategos of Serbia",who was in charge
to defend a large section of the Danubian frontier,from this city until Vidin,that's why Kekaumenos
uses the words "along the Danube and Sava,WHERE NOW THE SERBS LIVE".
The Byzantines' most frequent name for the Hungarians was "Dacians",this,corroborated with
another geographical reference, the frontier of"the Danube and Sava",points that Kekaumenos obvioulsly places
the "Dacian" Vlachs, in the territory located north of the Danubian sector between Sirmium and Vidin,
in/near the Hungarian lands.For the Byzantines,the Hungarians and the Dacian Vlachs are "Dacians",
while the Bulgarians(with the core in the NE part of the country) and the Vlachs from the Haemus(Balkan
Mountains) are "Mysians".


But the Vlachs are also the "Bessi"from the Byzantine Empire,so the military mind conceives their
homeland in the contact zone with the Hungarian state,"along the Danube and Sava',to justify
the present "dispersion" and differentiation(Byzantine Bessi vs. Hungarian Dacians).


After Basil II's conquest of Bulgaria,the ecclesiastical structure is
reorganized in this territory,the seat of Vlach bishop was in Vreanoti,
today's Vranje,located in the
valley of Southern Morava,which is part of the "land of Bessi".
That's why Kekaumenos was definitely not the only Byzantine/Greek
who knew about the Vlach communities from this area.














"Komnena, like other Byzantine authoers, generally refers to the Hungarians as Dacians."
(Elemer Illyes,"Ethnic Continuity in the Carpatho-Danubian Area")






from Paul Stephenson,"Byzantium's Balkan Frontier":


"Anna adds that they were inspired
by the treachery of the Dacians. The latter were clearly the
Hungarians;




"A glance at any map of the middle Byzantine empire at its ‘apogee’ in
1025 will show that Basil II exercised authority throughout the lands of
the southern Slavs, and the border of his empire ran west along the Sava
and Danube from Sirmium to the Black Sea, and south the length of the
Adriatic coast from Istria through Dyrrachium and into Greece."




"In 1018 the patrikios Constantine Diogenes was designated commander
in Sirmium and the neighbouring territories. The geographical
range of Constantine Diogenes’ powers is remarkable, and he seems to
have enjoyed de iure authority across a wide, if poorly defined region
which stretched from Sirmium at least as far as Vidin, and then south
into the mountains of Raska (modern Serbia) and Bosna (Bosnia). A seal
in the Dumbarton Oaks collection bearing the legend ‘Constantine
Diogenes, [. . .] strategos of Serbia’ can only be attributed to this character."


"Geza I pursued a more friendly policy towards Byzantium. He was
married, probably in 1075, to the daughter of the Byzantine aristocrat
Theodoulus Synadenus,3 and received at that time the famous crown
which bears (on the reverse) his portrait on an enamel plaque beneath
that of the emperor Michael VII Ducas, and beside the image of
Constantine Ducas the porphyrogennetos."




"After the Byzantine defeats at Bari and Mantzikert in 1071 imperial authority
was challenged throughout the empire and from beyond the frontiers.
The Hungarian Chronicle relates how Belgrade came under attack
from the Hungarian King Salomon, where the Bulgarian and Greek
defenders used ‘Greek fire’ to set light to the Magyars’ ships. To deflect a
second assault they appealed to the Pechenegs (Bisseni), upon whom the
Magyars inflicted great slaughter. The besieged city fell after three months,
and many of the inhabitants were put to the sword before Salomon, and
the dukes Geza and Ladislas marched on to Nis, seizing much plunder en
route. The situation was resolved by negotiation soon thereafter, but it seems
probable that Salomon was allowed to keep the former Byzantine outpost
of Sirmium (modern Sremska Mitrovica), which sat on the northern bank
of the Sava, opposite the residence of the bishop of Sirmium (at
Macvanska Mitrovica)"


"In the same
way, the peoples who occupied the various lands might be called
‘Bulgarians’ (Boulgaroi), although other names were used more frequently,
and with little concern for contemporary accuracy. Thus the
Bulgarians are often called Mysoi, Mysians (but not Moesians) because
they occupied the lands of the former Roman province of Moesia."


"The Vlach-Bulgar rebellion was provoked by an arbitrary imperial
decision to levy taxes. Choniates relates that, in order
to raise money to celebrate his marriage to the daughter of Bela III,
Isaac levied an extraordinary tax. This fell most heavily on the settlements
in the vicinity of Anchialus and the Haemus mountains where the
‘barbarians . . . . formerly called Mysians (Mysoi), and now named Vlachs
(Vlachoi)’, were provoked to rebel"










"The region between the Sava and the Danube was then ceded by
Michael VII to Geza, in 1075, so that he would secure an ally and save at least the region
east of Belgrade, which remained under Byzantine rule nearly until the collapse of the
empire in 1204."


"Confrontations between Hungary,
the Byzantine Empire and Bulgaria
for the Belgrade–Vidin Border Region
in the 9th-14th Centuries",Alexandru Madgearu














"Donja Ljubata is situated ca. 15 km west of Bosilegrad,
at the natural communication connecting this region
with the Vranje–Bujanovac Basin"


"Bowl from Davidovac, situated between Vranje and
Bujanovac, decorated with cogwheel tool and circular stamps, kept
in the National Museum in Vranje."




https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=...Rkf0FvA3bbw0h1SkTziVnA&bvm=bv.127984354,d.bGs


"Nadalje ,u njoj se prvi pu t spominju vlaški vjernici koji su raštrkani na čitavom područj u tearhiepiskopije , tak o reći na čitavom Balkanu . Za njih osniva i zasebn u episkopiju,poznat u ka o vlaška episkopija, koju Mathia s Gy6ni lokalizira na područj uBabune , sjeverno od Prilepa u blizini Velesa, gdje se nalaz e dva sela s imeno mGornj i i Donji Vranovci, a ta se episkopija naziva Vreanotes™ što se svakako prijemož e identificirati s Vranjem"

https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&rct=...WYwutMuq5OhguqRlg5Nwsw&bvm=bv.127984354,d.bGg

" According to a German historian, there apparently was a bishopric of "the Vlachs" with its residence at "Vreanoti" (Vranje) on the upper reaches of the Morava river"

http://www.farsarotul.org/nl27_3.htm


The Crusaders further localize the northern part of "Bessi", in the land situated along the same Morava valley,
between Ravna(Ravno)-Cuprija (the former Horreum Margi) and Nis, calling it "Terra Blacti".
This community, together with a hypothetical Vlach group that "lived along the Danube and Sava,where now the Serbs live",
couldn't be named "Dacians",because Kekaumenos knew that both lands were also owned by the Bulgarians,even for the Crusaders,
the events took place in,along or beyond the "Bulgarian Forest"; these regions were politically/administratively/geographically connected,
making the coordinates(Dacians,Danube and Sava,Serbs) totally unuseful.




"The ‘Bulgarian forest’ which stretched between Belgrade and Nis delayed the
crusaders’ passage into the empire, and gave the imperial commander
five to eight days to prepare for their reception and onward journey."


"Forests abounded in
the region to the west and north of Nis, running right up to the Danube
between its confluence with the Sava and the Velika Morava. Arnold of
Lübeck (118) wrote of the infamous Bulgarian forest (Bulgarewalt) where
marshes impeded the progress of those on horseback or pulling wagons."
(Paul Stephenson,Byzantium's Balkan Frontier")




"Otici imperialia, koje je
nastalo 1211. godine, pominje „Branicevo kraj Dunava” (Brandiz super
Danubium) i „zemlju Vlaha“ (terra Blacti), koju smešta izmedu „mesta
Ravno i mesta Niš“ (vicus Ravana et vicus Nifa). Mesto vicus Ravana, koje
se i u drugim latinskim izvorima pominje pod imenom civitas ili oppidum
Rabinel, jeste srednjovekovni grad Ravno, blizu današnje Cuprije na Moravi,
a vicus Nifa je iskvareni oblik grafije Nissa ili Nisse, koja potice od antickog
naziva Naissus (Niš)."(ROMANIZACIJA I ROMANSKO STANOVNIŠTVO TIMOCKE ZONE OD IDO XVI VEKA)












Both terms "Serbs" and "along the Danube and Sava" were purely militarily,reminding that Sirmium have been the seat of
the strategos of Serbia,the second geographic coordinate being involved as well in the contacts with Hungary.
Although of south Danubian origin,the two notions have been used to differentiate the land located north of it somehow,
because both the Hungarians and Pechenegs were called "Dacians".Without knowing some North-Danubian toponimy,
Kekaumenos uses the Byzantine correspondents,in a well-known fashion.
This association, "Serbs-Danube and Sava", became necessary only from the North-Danubian perspective,because,if the author would have
noted"the Vlachs are Dacians (and Bessi) who lived along the Danube where now the BULGARIANS live",the reader wouldn't have been
able to understand if they were located near the Hungarian Dacians or Pecheneg Dacians,the base from which he could construct the split
being in the same time way too homogenous,therefore, ambiguous.


He knows that these are the only terms who can be used in the Danube frontier to create a differentiation,having the
only purpose to project it northwards.




"In some cases, they
designate with the term Dacians the Pechenegs and Hungarians."
(Concerning the Identification of the Getae, Dacians and Dacia,
from the Byzantine's Woritings ofthe 10-15lh Centuries")


https://books.google.ro/books?id=Q9...AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=pechenegs dacians&f=false


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Second_Bulgarian_Empire_(1185-1196).png


http://www.explore-bulgaria.net/explore-bulgaria/images/history/map-kaloyan.jpg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bulgarian_uprising_of_Peter_Delyan_(1040-1041).svg


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uprising_of_Peter_Delyan



"We know that he served under Michael IV, and, together with Harald Hardrada, in the campaign of 1041 against Deljan,
in Bulgaria (97.18); that he witnessed the downfall of Michael V, on 20th April 1042 (59.7-8, 100.13-16);
and that at some time he served as strategos of Hellas (60.19)"




"As to the geographical location of the stories, fourteen can be located in Hellas or the Balkans; of these, four are
stories about K's relations, and three arise from the revolt of Deljan. Three more of these are concerned with the attacks
by the Pechenegs."


http://www.ancientwisdoms.ac.uk/lib...ones/intro-kekaumenos/#index.xml-body.1_div.8



The Vlachs were reliable sources of information,because that was one of their main jobs within
the Byzantine Empire,their positions ranged from road guards and defenders of strategic places(like castles,fortresses etc)
to scouting and spying the enemies.
Their role in the Empire's Intelligence must have been important,since the Byzantines had clearly expressed their despair
after the Vlachs' betrayals,that's why the Asen brothers, Dobromir Chrysos or Ivanko were so succesful, because they knew when,where
and how to act.Kekaumenos would have had alot of opportunities to gather informations from them,directly,being enlisted in his armies or/and
meeting them in Greece(Madgearu says that his place of origin was Larissa) or other places,or indirectly,through the accounts of his relative,
Niculitzas.


https://books.google.ro/books?id=YI...nepage&q=kekaumenos vlachs unfaithful&f=false




http://www.academia.edu/18072996/Vl...14_Edited_by_Mitko_B._Panov_Skopje_2015_47-55

EDIT

A better map,presenting Vranje,Nis and Ravna aligned along the Morava .

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Bulgaria-Ivan_Asen_2.png
 
Last edited:
The amount of haplogroup differentiation between Balkan populations is insignificant making the study of specific subclades most useful. If Albanians are in fact predominantly Illyrian then E1b1b (27.5% in Albanians) may indicate Illyrian descent as we find high frequencies of this marker in all Balkan peoples even Bulgarians (16%) whom we know migrated to the Balkans in the 6th century AD. The highest frequencies are found along the Western side of the Balkan peninsular. The highest frequency of E1b1b is found in central Greece (29.5%) with southern Greece not far off (27%). However, this marker is found in 23% of modern Macedonians and 20.5% of modern Serbs. The East has markedly less E1b1b which makes sense if you look at where ancient Illyrian settlements were concentrated.

Dienekes calculated the relative ages of E1b1b in various Balkan communities:

N Age (25y/gen) Age (30y/gen)
Nea Nikomedeia 8 149 1725 BC 2470 BC
Sesklo/Dimini 20 71 225 AD 130 BC
Lerna Franchthi 20 120 1000 BC 1600 BC
Crete 13 68 300 AD 40 BC
Haplozone 103 134 1350 BC 2020 BC
Aromuns (12) 32 71 225 AD 130 BC
Aromuns (8) 32 73 175 AD 190 BC
Slavomacedonians (12) 13 51 725 AD 470 AD
Slavomacedonians (8) 13 59 525 AD 230 AD
Albanians (12) 9 70 250 AD 100 BC
Albanians (8) 9 59 525 AD 230 AD


From these findings it would appear the E1b1b is a relatively young Albanian marker and was first established in the region of Central Macedonia in Greece.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg


The hotspot of E1b1b in Albanians from Kosova and Albania could well be as a consequence of genetic drift from a relatively recent introduction into the area (c.100BC) from ancient Macedonia, Greece.

Albania has only 9% R1a. The major haplogroups found in Albania are E1b1b (V13) at 27.5%, J2 at 19.5% and R1b (Albanian cluster found) at 16%. Albanian I2* and I2a make up 12%.

E-V13 as an Hellenic marker, I think you are possibly right if you consider ancient Macedonians to be Hellenic, which I certainly do.

Studies seem to replicate the co-occurrence of haplogroups J2 and R1b in the Balkans; these two haplogroups are frequent in most populations, contrasting with most of the Slavs from the western Balkans that have low frequencies of R1b and J2.

When did the Balkan marker for R1a1a come into Albania?
 
I have added the Vlachs to Eupedia's Y-DNA tables. It makes it easier to visualise and compare. If there is one stark contrast between the Vlachs and the non-Vlach populations of the eastern Balkans (North Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria) is that the Vlachs have considerably more R1b (21.5% against a regional average of 14.5%) and J2 (19.5% against 15%) and considerably less E1b1b (16.5% against 20%) than everybody else. The percentages of I2a2, G2a and T fit well in the average for the region. R1a is lower than in North Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria or Romania, but similar to Albania.

I think that the increased frequency of R1b and J2 could indeed be a proof of Roman ancestry. I have long hypothesised that the original Romans (before the empire) were predominantly a blend of R1b-S28 and J2 people (+ a substantial G2a minority).

The Vlachs being Latin-speakers, in a region that was mostly Greek-speaking from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages, and with a substantial Slavic community since the Middle Ages, it seems inevitable to conclude that E1b1b was brought by Greek speakers.

Greeks if we suppose by Greek the Hellenes are relatively new comers in the Balkans. When Hellenes came to the Balkans they found Pellasgs. Hellenes called then Pellasgoi. They coexisted up to year 1000 bc when the Hellenic historians no longer wrote about them in their history books. So E1b1b is an early farmer marker, or a Pellasg marker not a Greek one. This marker is all over Europe in different frequencies. Greek marker or Hellenes marker is J2a1, an Anatolian marker. The fact that Greek alphabet and Phoenician alphabet have similarities makes the case that Hellenes and Phoenicians were in proximity of each other. Also Greek language carries a number of Anatolian toponims (Mesopotamia for instance) its a testimony of their Anatolian heritage.
It makes sense to say that Vlahs are remnants of roman soldiers or colonizers in the Balkans. Because of their different language they were never able to be absorbed in local populations. Their haplogroups show that they are central Italians. Thats why they lack Germanic haplogroups.
Having said all of these it seems clear that Kosovo Albanians are a living early farmer human history. Coon the anthropologist from Harvard was wright when he described the Kosovans as clearly a separate race , hard to define but easy to recognize.
 
Traditional Megleno-Romanian song(from 3:05),preserved in an isolated community
from Turkey:




"So good are the girls
Hey,hey,the girls
Like milk in the spring"


For these lads,the kind girls become tasty without even noticing,it seems
that the refrain from the second verse is used in this purpose.


We can find the same connection in the Romanian folk ballad Miorita,
where the shepherd's gentleness,innocence and beauty
is compared with milk.


"With his dear face, bright
As the milk-foam, white,
His small moustache, right
As the young wheat’s ear,
With his hair so dear,
Like plumes of the crow
Little eyes that glow
Like the ripe black sloe?’"


http://spiritromanesc.go.ro/Miorita -eng.html

This article presents some semantic shifts that occured within the
Old Wallachian speech in order to denote or enhance affectivity and
harmony.In fact,this process took place in the Arges county,having the
core in my grandparents' area,from where it has diffused through transhumance.

http://www.mi.bxb.ro/Articol/MI_29_6.pdf
 
Greeks if we suppose by Greek the Hellenes are relatively new comers in the Balkans. When Hellenes came to the Balkans they found Pellasgs. Hellenes called then Pellasgoi. They coexisted up to year 1000 bc when the Hellenic historians no longer wrote about them in their history books. So E1b1b is an early farmer marker, or a Pellasg marker not a Greek one. This marker is all over Europe in different frequencies. Greek marker or Hellenes marker is J2a1, an Anatolian marker. The fact that Greek alphabet and Phoenician alphabet have similarities makes the case that Hellenes and Phoenicians were in proximity of each other. Also Greek language carries a number of Anatolian toponims (Mesopotamia for instance) its a testimony of their Anatolian heritage.
It makes sense to say that Vlahs are remnants of roman soldiers or colonizers in the Balkans. Because of their different language they were never able to be absorbed in local populations. Their haplogroups show that they are central Italians. Thats why they lack Germanic haplogroups.
Having said all of these it seems clear that Kosovo Albanians are a living early farmer human history. Coon the anthropologist from Harvard was wright when he described the Kosovans as clearly a separate race , hard to define but easy to recognize.


you mean Messopotamia?
is an Anatolian toponym?
and Greeks are J2a1

 

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