Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

[Riverman]

But thats more autosomal if I understand you correctly, i would like to see in there HG if the have maby have some of there own subgroups, or is it just a bit of everything, this thing could leed to see if they have maby a majority origin from some part of the Balkan, or did they just ramdomly got latinized

The big issue with the haplogroups is that Vlachs and Romanians-Moldovans are severely undertested, even in comparison to say Bulgarians, which are not that well-tested themselves. If you extrapolate the Romanian-Vlach populations numbers relative to their NGS yDNA tested individuals, they are among the worst tested people in all of Europe. That's one of the main reasons why we have troubles pinning them down.
From what we got we already see a distinction between local-regionalised population elements and a Southern Vlach core source, in my opinion. The latter showing some overlap with Albanians in particular, while the regionalised majority is way more diverse.

 

[eupator]

In medieval Byzantine literature, the Bulgarians and the Vlachs are used under the same common denominator, often referred to as the kingdoms "of the Bulgarians and the Vlachs".

There's not a clear cut between them in the literature.

 

[Riverman]

In medieval Byzantine literature, the Bulgarians and the Vlachs are used under the same common denominator, often referred to as the kingdoms "of the Bulgarians and the Vlachs".

There's not a clear cut between them in the literature.

There is also some obvious overlap, especially between Romanians and Bulgarians, but it looks not THAT close at this point, yet again, we need more data to interpet this satisfyingly, also for the direction of the gene flow in some cases up and down the Danube.

 

[MandM]

The big issue with the haplogroups is that Vlachs and Romanians-Moldovans are severely undertested, even in comparison to say Bulgarians, which are not that well-tested themselves. If you extrapolate the Romanian-Vlach populations numbers relative to their NGS yDNA tested individuals, they are among the worst tested people in all of Europe. That's one of the main reasons why we have troubles pinning them down.
From what we got we already see a distinction between local-regionalised population elements and a Southern Vlach core source, in my opinion. The latter showing some overlap with Albanians in particular, while the regionalised majority is way more diverse.

The problem is the cost, its quite expencive, specially for lets say people of the balkans, if you look att Ftdna ita about 450 dollarsfor Big Y, that is some ones montly wage, not many want to spend that monu just to get there real HG, so many go to like myheritage for 49 dollors, becouse hundereds and hundreds in each country in Balkan are tested,its just with the "wrong" Company

 

[MandM]

There is also some obvious overlap, especially between Romanians and Bulgarians, but it looks not THAT close at this point, yet again, we need more data to interpet this satisfyingly, also for the direction of the gene flow in some cases up and down the Danube.

And i do belive its mostly, the South of Romania that can overlap with Bulgarians, the others i think have more slavic mix in them, at least autosomali speaking, how they overlap in HG i dont really know

 

[Riverman]

The problem is the cost, its quite expencive, specially for lets say people of the balkans, if you look att Ftdna ita about 450 dollarsfor Big Y, that is some ones montly wage, not many want to spend that monu just to get there real HG, so many go to like myheritage for 49 dollors, becouse hundereds and hundreds in each country in Balkan are tested,its just with the "wrong" Company

I don't think that's the main reason, because Albanians and Bulgarians don't have much higher wages at all. For Germans too its not the main reason why they don't test enough. Its more lack of interest I guess, especially if you think about all the expats with good income.

 

[MandM]

I don't think that's the main reason, because Albanians and Bulgarians don't have much higher wages at all. For Germans too its not the main reason why they don't test enough. Its more lack of interest I guess, especially if you think about all the expats with good income.

It could also contributing to low HG tests defenetly, but a country with what +20m people and only a few interested? Maby its not only cost, but maby it could be that they dont know abouy HG and how significant it is, so they just got for the autosomal dna test, well hopefully more from the balkans will take dna test that shows HG's, and that more of the minority groups takes the test, it would be good if the dna companies like Serbian dna project would get in involved, they have some months cheaper, and if they are interested in a certain area the even do it for free

 

[Riverman]

It could also contributing to low HG tests defenetly, but a country with what +20m people and only a few interested? Maby its not only cost, but maby it could be that they dont know abouy HG and how significant it is, so they just got for the autosomal dna test, well hopefully more from the balkans will take dna test that shows HG's, and that more of the minority groups takes the test, it would be good if the dna companies like Serbian dna project would get in involved, they have some months cheaper, and if they are interested in a certain area the even do it for free

Serbs and Albanians are among the best tested populations in Europe. Usually people very interested in their ethnicity, clan and patrilineage (like Albanians, Somalis, Arabs etc.) are more likely to test. I would wish Germans would test as much as Albanians do.

 

[MandM]

Serbs and Albanians are among the best tested populations in Europe. Usually people very interested in their ethnicity, clan and patrilineage (like Albanians, Somalis, Arabs etc.) are more likely to test. I would wish Germans would test as much as Albanians do.

Serbia I know have many tested, but thats as i said becouse of Serbia dna project, good prices, sometimes discount, and other Times if I interested in an certain areas its for free, Albania also has there dna project, just dont know if if they sell test

 

[Riverman]

Serbia I know have many tested, but thats as i said becouse of Serbia dna project, good prices, sometimes discount, and other Times if I interested in an certain areas its for free, Albania also has there dna project, just dont know if if they sell test

AFAIK many Albanian tests got sponsored etc. The problem is indeed that most other people don't have such projects and degree of interest.

 

[Nicu]

Traditional Megleno-Romanian song(from 3:05),preserved in an isolated community
from Turkey:

"So good are the girls
Hey,hey,the girls
Like milk in the spring"


For these lads,the kind girls become tasty without even noticing,it seems
that the refrain from the second verse is used in this purpose.


We can find the same connection in the Romanian folk ballad Miorita,
where the shepherd's gentleness,innocence and beauty
is compared with milk.


"With his dear face, bright
As the milk-foam, white,
His small moustache, right
As the young wheats ear,
With his hair so dear,
Like plumes of the crow
Little eyes that glow
Like the ripe black sloe?"


http://spiritromanesc.go.ro/Miorita -eng.html

This article presents some semantic shifts that occured within the
Old Wallachian speech in order to denote or enhance affectivity and

The Sampul tapestry's importance consists in the fact
that it skips the conventionality of the Greek-Roman art,representing
peoples' faces simply as they really were.


The man is Dinaric,most likely of Macedonian ancestry or from the
Macedonian-Greek-Paleo-Balkanic spectrum.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/UrumqiWarrior.jpg


"His headband could be a diadem, a symbol of kingship in the Hellenistic world
– and represented on Macedonian and other Greek coins."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampul_tapestry



"In the army there were 25,000 Macedonians, 7,600 Greeks, and 7,000 Thracians and Illyrians, but the chief officers were all Macedonians, and Macedonians also commanded the foreign troops"

Alexander the Great (Alexander of Macedon) Biography

"Because the two symbols of Achilles (Chiron) and Heracles (Nemean lion skin) are combined,the tapestry might also be a representation of Alexander the Great — he referred to these as histwo ancestors and was often represented with large eyes."

"Descended from the Argead kings of Argos, Alexander claimed Heracles as his ancestor; thus he was consideredto belong to the first generation in the lineage of this royal family that started with Heracles’s legendary son,Temenos. Alexander believed himself to be a relative of Achilles through his mother as well. Although the blue-eyedking represented on the Sampul tapestry does not really look like Alexander, the association with Chiron andHeracles should indicate a certain degree of ethnic connection, if not a lineage."
(SINO-PLATONIC PAPERS)

EDIT

My observations antedate copy-paste.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/c0/23/e0/c023e07ad9a625525d0856491c172dd6.jpg

EDIT2

He had probably acquired some Central Asian/Bactrian sets of genes,but his main traits
remain Dinaric.In any case,if there was a Khotanese stylization,the effects are obviously
milder,because the man strongly resembles by his Dinaricity,the Aromanians,the Macedonian
Greeks,the Macedonian Macedonians,the Greeks or the other Balkanic people.

harmony.In fact,this process took place in the Arges county,having the
core in my grandparents' area,from where it has diffused through transhumance.

http://www.mi.bxb.ro/Articol/MI_29_6.pdf

It's interesting the Sampul tapestry was mentioned. I recall when I was browsing around the Wiki articles for Greco-Bactrians seeing that image and thinking it reminded me vaguely of some distant relations that were Aromanian, like my great-grandfather. But obviously this man depicted is just Macedonian; that was before Vlachs had formed, although their ancestors were still largely there in the Balkans already.

Romanian language is not same with Aromanian.
Aromanian might be a dialect of Romanian language.
However,on all land of Romania there is spoken only one language, Romanian, there are no dialects.
Romanian language,unlike Aromanian, has around 25% of the words cognates to Slavic languages.
2.7% of Romanian words are cognates to West Germanic languages.
This is a clear proof that Romanians as a people and Romanian language formed on current land of Romania,after Slavic migrations and Romanians did not came from South of Danube.
2.7% of the words cognates to West Germanic languages can be explained only by the contact that the Dacians had with West Germanic speakers.
And West Germanic speakers were never present South of Danube.
Want example of Romanian basic words cognates to West Germanic words?
Meshter in Romanian, same meaning with Meister from German.
Treapta, a step from a stair, from Treppe (stair) in West German.
Compair to trepte ,plural of treapta.

And so on.

Romanians also have R1b-U106,fewer or more,they also have lots of Eastern European admixture and 20-30% NW European admixture.


Another clear example that Romanians were in Romania,and not South of Danube, when the Slavs came:
In the areas of Romania that were not under Roman Empire occupation, snow is called "zapada".
This is cognate to Slavic zapadati, which means snow falling.
In the areas of Romania that were occupied by Roman Empire, snow is called Nea.
In Aromanian language,snow is also called Nea.
Which shows that actually, Zapada comes from the Dacian language, not from Slavic and that Dacians language had some cognates to Balto-Slavic/ProtoSlavic languages.
Because all Slavic speakers took a Germanic cognate for Snow now,calling either snjeg or other variants.

Also, Romanian folk language has the word Doina, which is a song of melancholy,or so, cognate to Lithuanian Daina.
Daina in Lithuanian means a song.
Slavs do not have this word.
This is again,a word from Dacian language,that was kept in Romanian.

Another word that shows Romanian language formed on current land of Romania:
In Romanian,we call neck "gat" cognate to Slavic glutu.
In Aromanian, gat is called "gusa" from latin geusiae.
This is a word from basic words,so it cannot be borrowed from Slavic,but it is inherited from Dacian and was kept.
A lot of Romanian words from basic language are cognates to Romance languages.

So Aromanian language formed South of Danube .
And Romanian language formed North of Danube.

Bro, there was no ancient West Germanic influence in Romania. Only East Germanic (Tervingi/Visigoths, Gepids), and those did not leave linguistic traces. The West Germanic words you mentioned like 'mester' come from later Medieval Transylvanian Saxon, and that word itself was ultimately borrowed from Latin actually. They started being moved into the region around the same time Vlachs started moving in from the south. As for 'treaptă', that doesn't come from German at all, it comes from Latin 'traiecta', and shows conformity to typical phonetic evolution from Latin in East Romance.

You're displaying a lot of faulty logic regarding zapada and nea.. it kind of makes me want to face-palm. There are so many people trying their amateur little folk-etymologies here, it drives me crazy. And doină coming from Dacian is simply an assumption, because you're starting from the idea that our language comes from Dacia. It's a faulty premise to begin with. I'm not saying it can't be true, but it certainly doesn't have to be true by any means, and most likely isn't.

Romanian 'gât' may come from Slavic glutu yes (the problem with this is that there is already another obsolete Romanian word that is certainly of this origin 'gâlt'), but alternatively could be an analogic singular formation to an original plural 'gâturi', from a Latin 'guttura', related to the word "guttural". And Aromanian 'gushi/gushe' is cognate to Romanian 'gușă', which can also mean "neck" in some dialects or archaic contexts, but generally means a goiter, or a bird's gizzard, or a double chin.

 

[Yetos]

From the book of M Triantafillidis Proffesor of Genetics in AUTH.
and also from Alberto Piazza search

''
Η γενετική σύσταση των Βλάχων (με τους οποίους επίσης θα ασχοληθούμε εκτενώς), είναι περίπλοκη. Είναι γνωστές η προσπάθεια και η προπαγάνδα των Ρουμάνων (και λιγότερο των Ιταλών), να προσεταιριστούν τους βλαχόφωνους Έλληνες (κυρίως μεταξύ 1870 και 1943), χωρίς όμως να τα καταφέρουν.

Η γενετική εξέταση, δύο πληθυσμιακών δειγμάτων Βλάχων από το Dukasi της Αλβανίας και το Krusovo της FYROM, έδειξε ότι οι πληθυσμοί των Βλάχων αυτών, δεν έχουν στενή γενετική συγγένεια μεταξύ τους, αλλά ούτε και με τους Αλβανούς ή τους Σλάβους των Σκοπίων, τους Ρουμάνους ή τους Έλληνες της Θράκης.''

''Επίσης από τις πολυμορφικές αλληλουχίες Alu, αποδείχτηκε ότι οι Βλάχοι ανήκουν στους βαλκανικούς πληθυσμούς, ενώ οι γενετικοί δείκτες του μιτοχονδρίου και του χρωμασώματος Υ, πληθυσμών Βλάχων από Αλβανία, FYROM και Ρουμανία, έδειξαν ότι οι Βλάχοι δεν αποτελούν μια γενετικά ομοιογενή ομάδα που να διαχωρίζεται από τις υπόλοιπες βαλκανικές πληθυσμιακές ομάδες. Οι περισσότεροι πληθυσμοί των Βλάχων είναι γενετικά πιο κοντά στους Έλληνες, παρά στους Ιταλούς, κάτι το οποίο επιβεβαιώνει την άποψη ότι οι Βλάχοι προέκυψαν από εκλατινισμένο ελληνικό πληθυσμό (με πιθανές επιγαμίες με Ρωμαίους)''

from Dukasi Albania to Krusevo Fyrom Vlachs there is nothing common in genetics.

the ALU polymorphics and mtDNA prove that Vlachs share local Balcanic populations more south than north of Danube (istros),
and they can not distinguish from other Balkan ethnicities.

Vlachs are major 3 linguistic groups, Megle Arbanto Kutsuk.
Majority of Vlachs appear nearby where Roman Legions exist or disband or big trade routes like Via Egnatia, Sirmium, Dacia

it seems that Romanians had an extra genetic input than Vlachoi, the Slavic admixture of ANDES KINGDOM.
in some Vlach population you may find strong Atlantic admixture due to legions history.

the inner names of Vlach are Aromani Armani Rama, and their language Armanesti or Blachisti in Megle Blachs.

PLZ do not mix Romanians with Vlachs, although YES, Many Vlachs have Romanian ancestry, and many Romanians are of Vlach ancestry, because they share the same LATIN-ROMAN linguistic background.

mainly Aromanians are conected with Legio 4, and ROmanians with legio X etc

think only in Moldova, Moldavia, Wallachia how many Greeks lived at 1800.
I think the creation of Aromani and Romani starts with this typical example.
Great Constantin-os family-parents.

 

[eastara]

The Vlachs(at least Aromanian) have no relation to the Roman legions. They originally lived where local population survived after the fall of the Danubian limes around 620AD. According to Florin Kurta and his maps where signs of life are found between 620 and 680(when the Bulgars came), this is:
South Greece, Albania and North Macedonia, Dalmatian coast and several coastal fortified cities like Thessaloniki. All bigger settlements besides in those areas were deserted and in ruins.

 

[Riverman]

The Vlachs(at least Aromanian) have no relation to the Roman legions. They originally lived where local population survived after the fall of the Danubian limes around 620AD. According to Florin Kurta and his maps where signs of life are found between 620 and 680(when the Bulgars came), this is:
South Greece, Albania and North Macedonia, Dalmatian coast and several coastal fortified cities like Thessaloniki. All bigger settlements besides in those areas were deserted and in ruins.

The Vlachs were people which either lived as transhumant pastoralists already before the collapse of the Roman provinces, or they gathered in areas of retreat and reverted back to transhumant pastoralism or, most likely, there was a core of such pastoralist in the mountainous regions and a couple of other people fled to them.
The main difference between Albanians and Vlachs is, that the first still spoke a Paleobalkan language, whereas the latter, at some point in time during Roman rule, adopted a Latin dialect.

Therefore I wouldn't look at the larger settlements, but rather the typical remains of herders in the mountains and valleys. However, these are always much harder to find and archaeologically not as well-studied. We even know that from areas in Romania for which there were historical accounts of Vlachs, yet the archaeological remains might be rather meagre. What's being left of Early Medieval huts in some remote places? Rather chance finds I guess.

The Romanised population of the larger towns and cities was most likely much harder hit and degraded by the collapse of the Roman provincial life. That's why only Albanians and Vlachs remained, and Greeks which became more like those two, than what they were before.

 

[Moses 26]

The Vlachs were people which either lived as transhumant pastoralists already before the collapse of the Roman provinces, or they gathered in areas of retreat and reverted back to transhumant pastoralism or, most likely, there was a core of such pastoralist in the mountainous regions and a couple of other people fled to them.
The main difference between Albanians and Vlachs is, that the first still spoke a Paleobalkan language, whereas the latter, at some point in time during Roman rule, adopted a Latin dialect.

Therefore I wouldn't look at the larger settlements, but rather the typical remains of herders in the mountains and valleys. However, these are always much harder to find and archaeologically not as well-studied. We even know that from areas in Romania for which there were historical accounts of Vlachs, yet the archaeological remains might be rather meagre. What's being left of Early Medieval huts in some remote places? Rather chance finds I guess.

The Romanised population of the larger towns and cities was most likely much harder hit and degraded by the collapse of the Roman provincial life. That's why only Albanians and Vlachs remained, and Greeks which became more like those two, than what they were before.

I think looking for archeology for vlachs in Romania a good start with been curtea de arges Wallachia first capital because their is archeology from the 13 century

Repertoriul Arheologic Naţional

Repertoriul Arheologic National (RAN)

ran.cimec.ro

 

[Aspar]

The Vlachs were people which either lived as transhumant pastoralists already before the collapse of the Roman provinces, or they gathered in areas of retreat and reverted back to transhumant pastoralism or, most likely, there was a core of such pastoralist in the mountainous regions and a couple of other people fled to them.
The main difference between Albanians and Vlachs is, that the first still spoke a Paleobalkan language, whereas the latter, at some point in time during Roman rule, adopted a Latin dialect.

Therefore I wouldn't look at the larger settlements, but rather the typical remains of herders in the mountains and valleys. However, these are always much harder to find and archaeologically not as well-studied. We even know that from areas in Romania for which there were historical accounts of Vlachs, yet the archaeological remains might be rather meagre. What's being left of Early Medieval huts in some remote places? Rather chance finds I guess.

The Romanised population of the larger towns and cities was most likely much harder hit and degraded by the collapse of the Roman provincial life. That's why only Albanians and Vlachs remained, and Greeks which became more like those two, than what they were before.

I think you are underestimating the human ability for adaptation.
You will find that a perfectly citizen population in very difficult times can go miles and beyond in order to survive.
Remember, the city life as was known prior to the Avars and Slavs stopped existing afterwards, except for the coastal Greek speaking areas.
It's not plausible that all the citizen population from the inner died out.
There is a reason why the Albanians aren't Latin speakers but the Vlachs whose real name is Roman BTW, Vlach being an exonym given by the Slavs to the Latin speaking population they encountered. And that reason is that the Romans or the Vlachs were citizens of the Empire and not some hillbillies living in the mountains.
First and foremost, one to start calling himself a Roman needs to be granted a citizenship and be in direct contact with the social and administrative life of the Empire.

 

[Aspar]

from Dukasi Albania to Krusevo Fyrom Vlachs there is nothing common in genetics.

Yeah, yeah, it's the same with the Slavophone Greeks that were Greeks since time began but the evil Slavs slavicised them.
Propaganda par excellence from the the time of Cosma the 'Saint' who was proclaiming for the 'barbarian' Vlachs, Albanians and Slavs to change their barbarous tongue to Greek one.
We all know where this propaganda stems from but fortunately we have science today and some things can be easily refuted by just ancestry tests.
Not that this was a puzzle for a well educated and intelligent man who can tell the difference between apples and pears by analysing the language only.

 

[Dianatomia]

Yeah, yeah, it's the same with the Slavophone Greeks that were Greeks since time began but the evil Slavs slavicised them.
Propaganda par excellence from the the time of Cosma the 'Saint' who was proclaiming for the 'barbarian' Vlachs, Albanians and Slavs to change their barbarous tongue to Greek one.
We all know where this propaganda stems from but fortunately we have science today and some things can be easily refuted by just ancestry tests.
Not that this was a puzzle for a well educated and intelligent man who can tell the difference between apples and pears by analysing the language only.

Greeks actually very much like Slavs. It’s only that in this context, namely some conflicting territorial claims, and the by now outdated overstatements of Slavs replacing Greeks, made some Greeks seem somewhat anti Slavic in such forums.

In reality there are no anti Slavic sentiments among Greeks. On the contrary.

As for the Slavophone Greeks. If we assume that they are in part or largely indigenous, then someone Slavicised them. Then why can’t they be equally re-Hellenized?

 

[Riverman]

I think you are underestimating the human ability for adaptation.
You will find that a perfectly citizen population in very difficult times can go miles and beyond in order to survive.
Remember, the city life as was known prior to the Avars and Slavs stopped existing afterwards, except for the coastal Greek speaking areas.
It's not plausible that all the citizen population from the inner died out.
There is a reason why the Albanians aren't Latin speakers but the Vlachs whose real name is Roman BTW, Vlach being an exonym given by the Slavs to the Latin speaking population they encountered. And that reason is that the Romans or the Vlachs were citizens of the Empire and not some hillbillies living in the mountains.
First and foremost, one to start calling himself a Roman needs to be granted a citizenship and be in direct contact with the social and administrative life of the Empire.

I'm not saying that all of them died out, but it looks they had a bad survival rate and were completely assimilated. Not just were they socially and economically worse adapted, but their sense of ethnosocial identity was also weakened.

As for Vlachs, the Vlachs are exactly what I described before, the people which became specialised herders, pastoralists, of the mountains and valleys and, to a large degree, lost the other aspects of Balkan Romance life and identity. You can also follow that by many of their agricultural terms being Slavic. Why so? Because they had given up on some of the most basic aspects of settled life from a more developed sedentary culture.

The expansion of Vlachs being clearly associated with the transhumance and specialised pastoralism in many regions of their later appearance.

We also have accounts of some of the original Romance population, which, when first encountering the Slavs, tried to impress them by telling the newcomers that they are "Roman citizens", for which these tribals had just laughs. The Romans caught in the open, if the tribals let them live, usually had to become subordinates. We have similar accounts from the Rhenish area by the way.

So the only people with a strong sense of identity were also more clan and tribal oriented pastoralists and at least the core, even if not all of them, are likely to have lived that way for longer. Which also explains the relative founder event of the surviving Romance core.

But we might get a better understanding with more ancient DNA, I would like to get the earliest Vlach remains available from different regions to get sampled and to compare them against each other and different neighbours. This might help to identify a potential core and founder population of the kind I have it in mind, around which other people and small Romance groups from other areas might have grouped.

 

[Aspar]

Greeks actually very much like Slavs. It’s only that in this context, namely some conflicting territorial claims, and the by now outdated overstatements of Slavs replacing Greeks, made some Greeks seem somewhat anti Slavic in such forums.

In reality there are no anti Slavic sentiments among Greeks. On the contrary.

As for the Slavophone Greeks. If we assume that they are in part or largely indigenous, then someone Slavicised them. Then why can’t they be equally re-Hellenized?

My post wasn't really directed to the modern Greeks. It has to do more with the negative sentiment overall and nationalistic views and spirits that start appearing from the 18th century on.
From this stems the views that the Vlachs from Albania or other countries have nothing to do with the Vlachs from Greece and that the Vlachs in Greece are nothing more than latinised Greeks.
That's not true however and we can can systematically dismiss these claims starting with the language of the Vlachs. The Aromanians regardless where they live speak a common language that has a root not older than a thousand years.
The example with the Slavs follows the same logic.
The end result should have been hellenisation of all these non Greek populations and create a mono-ethnic compact mass.