Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

Wonomyro said:
I am obviously not "spreading lies" but links to scientific papers. I sugget you to read the manual. There is no reason to be uncivil.
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Look, I am not looking for quarrel, but I've already explained that a 2014 model doesn't really hold a candle to one from 2018, considering all the discoveries that happened since.

You can choose to believe what you want, but those scientific papers have been updated since with the info that I've shown you.
 
JajarBingan said:
Look, I am not looking for quarrel, but I've already explained that a 2014 model doesn't really hold a candle to one from 2018, considering all the discoveries that happened since.

You can choose to believe what you want, but those scientific papers have been updated since with the info that I've shown you.
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I compared the result for Bulgarians from the paper (13 individuals) with the result from one sample you provided: Bulgarian_-_BulgarianD6:

The paper:
Side 1 (Belorussian-like): 46,0%
Side 2 (Cypriot-like): 64,0%

Your sample:
Slavic Bohemia: 47.5%
Balkans IA: 52.5%

The values are quite similar. Now I am comparing the Romanian results (Romanian_-_G428):

The paper:
Side 1 (Lithuanian-like): 43,0%
Side 2 (EastSicilian-like): 57,0%

Your sample:
Slavic Bohemia: 51.67%
Balkans IA: 48.33%

That is a big difference. However, the Romanian sample (Romanian_-_G428) doesn't seem to represent an average Romanian. He is also distant from the Bulgarian guy (Bulgarian_-_BulgarianD6) and we don't expect that. Do we?

Bulgarian:Average
RomanianAverage1.355

However, the paper also shows that Bulgarians and Romanians have their "Sides 1" not much different from each other:

(Bulgarian) Side 1 (Belorussian-like): 46,0%
(Romanian) Side 1 (Lithuanian-like): 43,0%

I think that the paper from 2014 is quite OK.
 
JajarBingan said:
I'm not buying that South Slavs are mainly from a Dacian-Thracian stock, because in that case we'd all cluster with Albanians and Greeks, and especially insular Greeks since those were isolated from Slavic migrations.

The logical explanation for me is that the Slavic admixture pulls the Romanians North, while the Dacian/Thracian admixture pulls the South Slavs toward the South genetically and that's how the two intersect.

Now determining the actual distribution of the two components in these individuals is quite hard at the moment, because we don't have any Dacian/Thracian samples yet.

The only proxy for Slavs we've got come from the Middle Ages in Czechia. For Dacians/Thracians the possible proxy derives from the Iron Age Balkan references found in Mathieson's paper on Southeast Europe.

So, by no means is this pseudo-model ideal, but that's what we've got at the moment if you want to raise the question about the actual distribution of Dacian/Thracian (native Balkan) vs Slavic in the current people from the Balkans.

ModelSampleSample Age BCEFitBalkans IASlavic Bohemia
1Balkans_IA +Slavic_BohemiaRomanian_-_G4282.931548.3351.67

ModelSampleSample Age BCEFitBalkans IASlavic Bohemia--RISE569
1Balkans_IA +Slavic_Bohemia--RISE569Bulgarian_-_BulgarianD62.379852.547.5

ModelSampleSample Age BCEFitBalkans IASlavic Bohemia
1Balkans_IA +Slavic_BohemiaSerbian_-_Serbian_Serbia22.517840.8359.17


Check with Albanians and insular Greeks since I assume that they are a purer Balkan stock:

ModelSampleSample Age BCEFitBalkans IASlavic Bohemia--RISE569
1Balkans_IA +Slavic_Bohemia--RISE569Albanian_-_ALB2122.77417525

ModelSampleSample Age BCEFitBalkans IASlavic Bohemia--RISE569
1Balkans_IA +Slavic_Bohemia--RISE569Greek_Crete_-_NA173765.817599.170.83


Check with Ukrainians and Poles since I assume that they are a purer Slavic stock:

ModelSampleSample Age BCEFitBalkans IASlavic Bohemia
1Balkans_IA +Slavic_BohemiaUkrainian_-_592_R01C013.38030100

ModelSampleSample Age BCEFitBalkans IASlavic Bohemia
1Balkans_IA +Slavic_BohemiaPolish_-_Poland113.5610100
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What calculator values are you using for these models?
 
Wonomyro said:
I compared the result for Bulgarians from the paper (13 individuals) with the result from one sample you provided: Bulgarian_-_BulgarianD6:

The paper:
Side 1 (Belorussian-like): 46,0%
Side 2 (Cypriot-like): 64,0%

Your sample:
Slavic Bohemia: 47.5%
Balkans IA: 52.5%

The values are quite similar. Now I am comparing the Romanian results (Romanian_-_G428):

The paper:
Side 1 (Lithuanian-like): 43,0%
Side 2 (EastSicilian-like): 57,0%

Your sample:
Slavic Bohemia: 51.67%
Balkans IA: 48.33%
Click to expand...


You are assuming that Cypriots and East Sicilians can work as proxies for Balkans IA since they are both from the South. Same goes for Lithuanians and Slavic Bohemia.
You couldn't be farther from the truth in both cases.

ModelSampleSample Age BCEFitAnatolia IABalkans IABaltic IAHasanlu IA
1Anatolia_IA +Balkans_IA +Baltic_IA +Hasanlu_IACypriot_-_CYP53.8572051.67048.33
2Anatolia_IA +Balkans_IA +Baltic_IA +Hasanlu_IASicilian_East_-_EastSicilian8H3.281324.1753.331.6720.83

ModelSampleSample Age BCEFitAnatolia IABalkans IAHasanlu IASlavic Bohemia
1Anatolia_IA +Balkans_IA +Hasanlu_IA +Slavic_BohemiaCypriot_-_CYP53.8572051.6748.330
2Anatolia_IA +Balkans_IA +Hasanlu_IA +Slavic_BohemiaSicilian_East_-_EastSicilian8H3.318123.3351.6722.52.5


ModelSampleSample Age BCEFitBalkans IABaltic BAHungary IANordic IA
1Balkans_IA +Baltic_BA +Hungary_IA +Nordic_IALithuanian_-_LithuanianD12.561412.557.5030

ModelSampleSample Age BCEFitBalkans IABaltic BANordic IASlavic Bohemia
1Balkans_IA +Baltic_BA +Nordic_IA +Slavic_BohemiaLithuanian_-_LithuanianD12.561111.6755.83302.5


Let's not argue for the sake of measuring our genitals.
That paper and model is old. Even in 2014, Davidski and Dodecad had better models with the latest references at that time than there.
 
Aspar said:
What calculator values are you using for these models?
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The default, which is basically the same as nMonte3.R

1535034785.png
 
Wonomyro said:
However, the Romanian sample (Romanian_-_G428) doesn't seem to represent an average Romanian.
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Looks pretty average to me, considering the small number of samples. If you want someone that's outlying compared to the available samples there then go and pick mine from custom users (Dorkymon).
 
JajarBingan said:
You are assuming that Cypriots and East Sicilians can work as proxies for Balkans IA since they are both from the South. Same goes for Lithuanians and Slavic Bohemia.
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What is important here is that there were two clearly identifiable sides in the admixture event, which happened during the early middle ages. We know who these sides were, so we don’t need to bother ourselves with the internal composition of each (this is what you are doing). The names are just a conventions used in the paper and should not be taken too literaly:

The "Lithuanian like" in case of Romanians is just a nick name for:
Lithuanian (37.7%)
Finnish (4.7%)
etc...

If you click on Lithuanian circle (on the map) you'll get this:

Side 2 (Belorussian-like)
Polish (51.7%)
Belorussian (38.4%)
Russian (8.9%)
Total: 99%
 
Wonomyro said:
What is important here is that there were two clearly identifiable sides in the admixture event, which happened during the early middle ages. We know who these sides were, so we don’t need to bother ourselves with the internal composition of each (this is what you are doing). The names are just a conventions used in the paper and should not be taken too literaly:
The "Lithuanian like" in case of Romanians is just a nick name for:
Lithuanian (37.7%)
Finnish (4.7%)
etc...
If you click on Lithuanian circle (on the map) you'll get this:
Side 2 (Belorussian-like)
Polish (51.7%)
Belorussian (38.4%)
Russian (8.9%)
Total: 99%
Click to expand...
Let's put it this way.
We're already aware that everyone in the Balkans is a mix of something Balkan and something from the North of it.

To debate about the actual distribution of the two within a modern population, we need solid Iron Age to early medieval samples.

Moderns as a reference for either North or South are not solid enough since they also have mixed with others in the meantime.
I suggest stopping our dialogue on this here.
 
Dreptul Valah said:
It is ;extremely helpful.
They got scared by the distance between Wallachia (with Bucharest rural area,Ilfov,included)and Belarus/Poland;since Maramures and the very most of Moldavia is very Dinaric too ,it has to be Scheii Brasovului.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702745/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians_in_Romania
Many Romanians of Bulgarian ancestry or living in a strong Bulgarian environment identify themselves with the Roman-Italian and British cultures, they enjoy serenity a lot.
EDIT
In this study,the Turkish sample came from the Aegean Sea shore, the middle section.
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I have friends from the southern border zone,either with Bulgarian ancestry or living in contact with them,"Bulgarian " environment ",they are surprisingly reliable and nice people.


The very most of them have settled in Romania about 2 or 3 centuries ago,along with their (ecclesiastical) elites,who were persecuted by the Turks,it is from these families that lots of the members of the today's Romanian Orthodox Church have their origin.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JCbH9d_jw48


However,these are overally much recent elements, that shouldn't be confused with the so- called "Macedonian" ones,which are actually Romanian-Vlach.


I'm mainly speaking about some linguistic connections,for instance Slavic prah,switched to Romanian praf,this phonological shift ,h to v,f,appears in some Macedonian FYROM dialects,exactly in the areas were the Vlachs lived/were settled, starting with Samuel Comitopuli.

The Romanian origin of this shift is proved by the Aromanian and Albanian terms for a Macedonian Greek city ,Florina and Follorine,from Greek Chlerion,Hlerion,but the Macedonian Slavic with the usual form Lerin.
Nevertheless, the Macedonian Slavs from that area,the Prespa dialect ,do has this h-to-f,v shift as well as the local Greeks,it seems...


It was in that area the Vlachs are firstly recorded ,in 976,since this was a Bulgarian core zone ,they probably initially sided with Samuil,until the Greeks bribed them to kill his brother,David.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Prespa_dialect


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_of_Bulgaria


http://www.farsarotul.org/nl21_2.htm


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florina
 
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Since both the Prespa event and the Vlahoepiskop from Tetovo are located in Western Macedonia, towards the Albanian border,and both the Albanians and the Romanians used the word schiau,shqa,a Slav,only for Bulgarians,but not for Serbs,this proves that both were settled at about the same time,place,from,most likely,Romania,because,as the word says,they ,not only that they were not Slavs,but also didn't want to become ones.(my phone no., to very beautiful ladies,only in private,pls...).


https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/record/92040/BibliographicResource_3000094574409.html


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Șchei
 
https://www.google.ro/url?sa=t&sour...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw28Ag6ZTpzOPtouZMJ9eAU5


This is Roesler theory,the Romanians have emigrated northwards through a Second Bulgarian filter.


It can't be correct, because Asens got Bulgarian ized, there was not Vlach aristocracy in general(Partistrion-Tarnovo,not Western Macedonia,since Nichtas Choniates places Vlachia in northern half of Bulgaria,he call it Moesia(Inferior),while Wallachia and Moldavia and the Romanians from Transylvania have maintained their institutions,see Vlach Law,etc
In reality ,the fact that the Asens demanded Old Church Slavonic liturgy for all the Vlachs,demonstrates quite the opposite, very few of them were in this Bulgarian thing.


Madgearu proved this,the Vlachs living in desertum Bulgarie, the Cuprija-Nis area,on Morava,had nothing to do with Asens,they didn't participated in the uprising, plus many of the Vlachs turned against them ,after they choose Bulgarization,see Ivanko,who recruited in his army only Vlach troops.
 
Dreptul Valah said:
Since both the Prespa event and the Vlahoepiskop from Tetovo are located in Western Macedonia, towards the Albanian border,and both the Albanians and the Romanians used the word schiau,shqa,a Slav,only for Bulgarians,but not for Serbs,this proves that both were settled at about the same time,place,from,most likely,Romania,because,as the word says,they ,not only that they were not Slavs,but also didn't want to become ones.(my phone no., to very beautiful ladies,only in private,pls...).


https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/record/92040/BibliographicResource_3000094574409.html


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Șchei
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Who were settled at about the same time,place,from,most likely,Romania,Serbs and Bulgarians?
 
Here in the village, the elders pronounce femi:e(femiie),a woman.


I started to be interested in history,when I was six,with the legend of Gelu's Death.

It was about a Romanian-Vlach chieftain chased by the Hungarian army;Gelu,countless times escapes the ambushes,he literally chews a wounding arrow,on his horse, a dark-brown restless murg.


After he dies,the horse doesn't stop,he carves the grave with his feet.


https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/fëmijë
 
Basically, there are exactly the same instincts in my father's area,Arges,but this is the core of the Wallachian state,here the shepherds have created a civilization along with Western Wallachia,they can be more refined,but only in thought.
 
man you are nuts?

we do not even eat the eggplants, if the neighbour used furadan for his potatoes,

that think s very toxic, and needs more than half a month to 'solve' and at least 2 rains,
it is used only in mountains, in fenched potatoe fields, and as rat killer with Sintrom.

At least 4 km from habited area, and away from plains that goat or sheeps eat grass.
 
Idk if you have read this paper, but if not give it a try, it's worth it: https://www.researchgate.net/public...in_the_Balkans_and_the_origins_of_the_Aromuns.

The conclusion is that Vlachs originated south of the Danube, but not from the same place. They are as heterogenous as the Balkans in general, so much more so than any single population.

As I have been saying for a long time, it makes no sense to study Vlach genetics as a whole, as it is pointless to study the genetics of Americans, unless you focus on very specific subgroups.
 
Aromuns are not all the Vlachs and to generalize and say that all Vlachs originated south of the Danube is completely inaccurate... there is enough evidence that the origin of the Vlachs (Daco-Romans) was North of the Danube. Some went south after the Aurelian Retreat along with the Romans, but many remained north of the Danube, retreating around the Carpathian Mountains and the neighboring hills.


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Dumidre said:
Aromuns are not all the Vlachs and to generalize and say that all Vlachs originated south of the Danube is completely inaccurate... there is enough evidence that the origin of the Vlachs (Daco-Romans) was North of the Danube. Some went south after the Aurelian Retreat along with the Romans, but many remained north of the Danube, retreating around the Carpathian Mountains and the neighboring hills.


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Click to expand...

It is accurate to say that the people and communities that participated in the study originated South of the Danube though. And there 5 unrelated Vlach communities there.
 
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