Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

You could be right, but I have read and talked to people, about the surname Munćan, and it says its not from Muntenia but gave that name to the Vlach who were around the Hills in the border of Serbia andRomanina were the city Vrsac is today "Banat" and i have talked to a historian, in Serbia when i was serching deeper for my ancestors, and we couldent find anything that should that we migrated from Romania to Serbia, hi thinks we could have come from Macedonia region, and possoblie change ta last name, but nothing is writen in stone yet, i stoll reachers this, some belive that we could have been of Aromanian decent also "speculation" but would not be inpossible becouse my family have all taken Dna test and autosomali we are pretty southern, even more thet the Vlach of east Serbia who have taken Dna test, but this is a fun journy and exiting were it will lead me =) If it helps o my Big Y700 I am closest to one from Dalmacia and one from Albania, But on my Y111 it is one from Romania

Munteanu is a very common surname in Romania, so I thought yours looks like a Serbianized version of Munteanu. Why does your surname end in -an? Why it doesn't end in some other suffix, more common in Serbs? Like -in - Munćin..

It's possible it could have this connection you mentioned. In any case, your surname is related to the Romanian word for the mountain.
Rom. munte, pl. munți
Arom. munti, pl. muntsã

And who were those Vlachs from Vrsac? They could not have been Aromanians. As I can see Vrsac was destroyed and depopulated during the Ottoman invasion, and was resettled by the Serbs in late 17th century and by the Germans in early 18th century.

Well so far there is Romanian E-Y97307, no Y92017. There is also one Romanian E-BY4455 related to those Serbs from Dalmatia, but his result was deleted from YFull. Most likely Y92017 will appear in Romania too, they are very poorly tested.
 
Munteanu is a very common surname in Romania, so I thought yours looks like a Serbianized version of Munteanu. Why does your surname end in -an? Why it doesn't end in some other suffix, more common in Serbs? Like -in - Munćin..

It's possible it could have this connection you mentioned. In any case, your surname is related to the Romanian word for the mountain.
Rom. munte, pl. munți
Arom. munti, pl. muntsã

And who were those Vlachs from Vrsac? They could not have been Aromanians. As I can see Vrsac was destroyed and depopulated during the Ottoman invasion, and was resettled by the Serbs in late 17th century and by the Germans in early 18th century.

Well so far there is Romanian E-Y97307, no Y92017. There is also one Romanian E-BY4455 related to those Serbs from Dalmatia, but his result was deleted from YFull. Most likely Y92017 will appear in Romania too, they are very poorly tested.
It is in Serbian so I have translated it
When Suleiman the Magnificent conquered Belgrade in 1521 and Hungary in 1526, he offered the Vlachs of Serbia to inhabit the completely deserted regions of Banat and Transylvania, with significant tax reliefs and benefits. At that time, over 1600 Vlach families from Crna Reka (Crni Timok) and Braničevo (about 1800 families) emigrated to Banat and Erdelj (Transylvania). - They got huge estates, founded villages and towns. Later migrations followed, the largest in 1690 under Patriarch Čarnojević, after which less than 4,000 inhabitants remained in Serbia, according to Cvijić.
Of course there were Aromanians also, they setteld even in Romanian,Northern Serbia even in Vrsac up to Hungary. And yes i know Munćani comes from the word Munteni
 
Also translated from Serbian
Since 1717, groups of colonists from Germany, France, Italy and Spain have arrived in this area, primarily winegrowers. At the same time, many immigrants from Serbia, mostly craftsmen and merchants, Serbs and Cincari, flocked to Vrsac. City of 1804 They received the Market Charter of Francis II. CINCARI is the Serbian word for Aromanian
 
It is in Serbian so I have translated it
When Suleiman the Magnificent conquered Belgrade in 1521 and Hungary in 1526, he offered the Vlachs of Serbia to inhabit the completely deserted regions of Banat and Transylvania, with significant tax reliefs and benefits. At that time, over 1600 Vlach families from Crna Reka (Crni Timok) and Braničevo (about 1800 families) emigrated to Banat and Erdelj (Transylvania). - They got huge estates, founded villages and towns. Later migrations followed, the largest in 1690 under Patriarch Čarnojević, after which less than 4,000 inhabitants remained in Serbia, according to Cvijić.
Of course there were Aromanians also, they setteld even in Romanian,Northern Serbia even in Vrsac up to Hungary. And yes i know Munćani comes from the word Munteni

The bolded is bit dubious. Why, because at that time, except for Aromanians and Megleno-Romanians who were located much more to the South, there were no Romanian/Aromanian speakers South of Danube. The last of them were probably Slavicized already in 14th century.

Branicevo in 15th century (per defter of 1469) also had only a few Vlachs of Vlach status, i.e. Serbian speakers of mixed Slavic and Vlach origin. I don't think there was any Romanian speaking population there. Again modern "Vlachs" (Vlach/Romanian speakers) from NE Serbia are early 18th century migrants from Banat, Transylvania and Oltenia.

Rather what this refers to is Vlach status, which was extremely prevalent amongst Serbs of that time, even 50, 60 % of all Serbs had it. In Medieval Serbia, the Vlach legal status was preserved, and over time peasant Slavs, and other people of lower class wanted and tried to obtain this legal status which made their life easier. And this only intensified during the Ottoman era. As bar some Christian sipahis/voynuks keeping the status from Medieval times, Vlach status was the best they could get within the Ottoman system (other than islamisation).

Which is why for ex. Muslims in Bosnia always used to call Serbs Vlachs, as 95 % of Bosnian Serbs in 16th, 17th century did have this Vlach status.

So settlers to that area should have been Serbs, even if they were called Vlachs.

About Aromanians, it's possible they moved up as well, and I know they were numerous even in Romania in 18th century. There is a study about them, but it lacks the dys458 STR which is crucial for defining your subclade so not all of their results were useful. It's possible that they do have this clade.

You are E-FT186965, you share this and 4 more SNP's with another sample. Do you know who this person is? As he is crucial for you. Your link should date to advanced Medieval times. Try to contact him if you have him in your matches. You should have his e-mail.
 
The bolded is bit dubious. Why, because at that time, except for Aromanians and Megleno-Romanians who were located much more to the South, there were no Romanian/Aromanian speakers South of Danube. The last of them were probably Slavicized already in 14th century.

Branicevo in 15th century (per defter of 1469) also had only a few Vlachs of Vlach status, i.e. Serbian speakers of mixed Slavic and Vlach origin. I don't think there was any Romanian speaking population there. Again modern "Vlachs" (Vlach/Romanian speakers) from NE Serbia are early 18th century migrants from Banat, Transylvania and Oltenia.

Rather what this refers to is Vlach status, which was extremely prevalent amongst Serbs of that time, even 50, 60 % of all Serbs had it. In Medieval Serbia, the Vlach legal status was preserved, and over time peasant Slavs, and other people of lower class wanted and tried to obtain this legal status which made their life easier. And this only intensified during the Ottoman era. As bar some Christian sipahis/voynuks keeping the status from Medieval times, Vlach status was the best they could get within the Ottoman system (other than islamisation).

Which is why for ex. Muslims in Bosnia always used to call Serbs Vlachs, as 95 % of Bosnian Serbs in 16th, 17th century did have this Vlach status.

So settlers to that area should have been Serbs, even if they were called Vlachs.

About Aromanians, it's possible they moved up as well, and I know they were numerous even in Romania in 18th century. There is a study about them, but it lacks the dys458 STR which is crucial for defining your subclade so not all of their results were useful. It's possible that they do have this clade.

You are E-FT186965, you share this and 4 more SNP's with another sample. Do you know who this person is? As he is crucial for you. Your link should date to advanced Medieval times. Try to contact him if you have him in your matches. You should have his e-mail.

I have tried to find this person on ftdna he is of unkown origin, an albanian administrator for the Albanian bloodline group said that he could se that this person made dna test with igenea and have tried to contact him but with no luck so far, so untill then its a waithing game
 
According to Byzantine historiographer (15h century) Chalcocondyles, Vrachs/Vrachi (Vlachs) are Dacians from Moldova who settled Epirus, Thessaly and Macedonia.
 

Bosnian Serbs in 16th, 17th century did have this Vlach status. So settlers to that area should have been Serbs, even if they were called Vlachs.

Settlers to Bosnia or Croatia are mostly Vlachs who later became Serbs under the influence of the Orthodox Church. There are no primary historical sources which call this population as the Serbs. Serbian Academician Sima Čirković for Herzegovinian area says that according to Turkish data(16th century), Serbs lived in the villages of that area and were replaced by the new Vlach population.

Which is the origin of the original Vlachs is probably an open debate but they are the indigenous population of the Balkans who later coming to the Western Balkans etc, mostly in Turkish times. It is very likely that there is big Albanian influence in Vlachs or mixing between these two populations. There are also other Vlachs which coming from the direction of Romania etc.
 
According to Byzantine historiographer (15h century) Chalcocondyles, Vrachs/Vrachi (Vlachs) are Dacians from Moldova who settled Epirus, Thessaly and Macedonia.
Maby a few, but Vlach in Epirus,Thessaly and Macedonia have much higher E-V13, J and R1b than Moldovians, so my personal belife is that i dont think so, its more that they spoke a romantic dialect and were just lumped in to the Vlach people..But i dont understand why they havent done a large scale and deeper testing on the Vlach people in the Balkans, i know there was som testing 2006 on about 200 vlach around the balkans, but nothing deep just basic haplogroup, and from that you can see that about 30% hade haplogroup I and R1a, that could probably be of Slavic origin, and the rest is Balkan but cant see if the majority was Roman, Illirian, Dacian, Thracian or Greek, The Vlach are a true mystery and scholors just seems to dont give a crap?
 
This is a good collection of various Byzantine and more recent source, the page is translated with google translate from Greek to English, so syntax and grammar errors might be found:
 
I heard some opinions that most of E-V13 in Greece is due to Arvanite and Vlach migrations.

But then again this is paradox because the supposed suppliers have less E-V13 than Central/Southern Greeks overall.

This needs more systematic and academic research.
 
I have tried to find this person on ftdna he is of unkown origin, an albanian administrator for the Albanian bloodline group said that he could se that this person made dna test with igenea and have tried to contact him but with no luck so far, so untill then its a waithing game

Well if he tested at Igenea, that is tricky, do they even exist anymore. He could have tested 5+ years ago.
 
Settlers to Bosnia or Croatia are mostly Vlachs who later became Serbs under the influence of the Orthodox Church. There are no primary historical sources which call this population as the Serbs. Serbian Academician Sima Čirković for Herzegovinian area says that according to Turkish data(16th century), Serbs lived in the villages of that area and were replaced by the new Vlach population.

No. The documents they wrote were in Slavic not Romanian. Their personal names don't have more than 3-5 % of Vlach names. These "Vlachs" were not speakers of Romanian.

To say that these "Vlachs" spoke Romanian related language is laughable. They didn't and therefore they were not ethnic Vlachs. However they have many lineages that are of Vlach origin. That's how they came to be. Slavic underclass became Vlachs in the way of life and status and they assimilated the original Vlachs.

Do you have any idea how the Romanian personal names looked like? Ciribiri from Istria are Romanian speakers, and their personal names from 16th century were very different from these Vlachs.

Some of these Serbs in Vlach status include even various modern Croat families. Take a look for example at the old family of Poropat. Who belong to I-PH908>Y84307 , they have relatives in Serbs, as do most Croat PH908 (as all Balkan PH908 are proto-Serbs just as all R-Z2705 are proto-Albanians).

From Serbian DNA project admin, I just pasted it in google translate, I don't have time to do it myself.
He is talking about the Vlachs of Istria, whose descendants are the Poropats, who were Catholicised early.

The issue of these first Serbian immigrants to the area of ​​Lika and Dalmatia certainly deserves a special topic. I hope that Pijović will deal with this topic in some of his next work, because it seems to me to be a logical sequence of what he started with the Vlachs in Serbian lands.


What I have concluded from the data I have read over the years could be summarized as follows:


- The first immigration of Serbs in Vlach status to the area of ​​northern Dalmatia was done by Mladen II Šubić, who briefly ruled the area of ​​Zahumlje at the beginning of the 14th century. In the documents of the Split Chapter, Bosnia (which then ruled Hum) and Raška are mentioned as the place of the Vlachs present in the vicinity of Split at the end of the 14th century.


- The Šubićs recognized primarily the military significance of the Vlachs, and after the fall of the Šubićs, they were used for the same purposes by the Hungarian king (Vlach kings), Nelipčići, Frankopani, Kurjakovići. Vlach communities appear in a wide area, in the areas of Cetina, Zrmanja, Ounce, around Zadar, around Trogir, on Velebit


- that these Vlachs were originally Orthodox speaks a source of the first order, and that is the letter of Pope Gregory XI to the Franciscans from 1373 which allows them to build a monastery on the border of Bosnia (Krbava is also mentioned) where "Schismatic Vlachs live with cattle in the mountains" , with the aim of converting them to the Roman Catholic faith.


- we can only assume to what extent the action of the Franciscans was successful, but there is no doubt that these "old Vlachs" began to fit into the Catholic and Chakavian environment over time. A significant part certainly converted to the Catholic faith, they began to speak a Chakavian-Shtokavian hybrid language. There are sources that say that the Franciscans were the guarantors of some Vlachs in the 15th century. And the Franciscan mission developed in Hum itself.


- however, despite this Franciscan mission in the 15th century, we can reasonably assume that a part of these "old Vlachs" welcomed the "new Vlachs" in the 16th century in the Orthodox faith, or returned to the original faith. Perhaps a good example of this integration could be the Dalmatian Štrpci, which in 15-16. century are mentioned as "old Vlachs" who are fighting against the Turks on the Hungarian side, and their representative Pavle Kozul Strbac even got the Hungarian nobility.


- there is no doubt that these "old Vlachs" as well as the rest of the Chakavian Croatian population were under attack by the Turks in the early 16th century, and that they also retreated before the Turks, some of whom ended up in Burgenland (local Vlachs), some in Istria . After the Turkish occupation of northern Dalmatia, those from Istria will return to Dalmatia, where they became known in Turkish censuses as the Vlachs of Istria. From there, some will emigrate to Austrian territory, around the Kupa. Some will remain on Dalmatian soil and fit into the immigrant Orthodox or Catholic population of Dalmatia.


- Austrian sources of the 16th century clearly distinguish these "old Vlachs" from the new settled Vlachs (Rašana). For these old people, they most often use the term Alt Romer, however, although they denote them separately, in the national sense, for them it is all one and the same people. So, when Kuripešić passed through the Bosnian Krajina in 1530, he called the Serbs there both Serbs and Ćići. Ćići because he knew the Vlachs of Istria (Ćići) as Kranjc, which emphasizes that Serbs and Ćići are one and the same. Ćiće should not be confused with Romano-speaking Istro-Romanians (Ciribir).


-even the Turkish census of Lika from 1712, clearly marks these "old Vlachs" after which they as a recognizable group are lost and drowned in larger identities


- Poropati are certainly one of the leading families of these old Vlachs, we meet them in Dalmatia and in Istria and Burgenland. Of the other families, I think it would be good to test the Krajina Basari (Basarići) and Catholic and Orthodox, because this surname also appears among these "old Vlachs".



Which is the origin of the original Vlachs is probably an open debate but they are the indigenous population of the Balkans who later coming to the Western Balkans etc, mostly in Turkish times. It is very likely that there is big Albanian influence in Vlachs or mixing between these two populations. There are also other Vlachs which coming from the direction of Romania etc.

There was lot of Albanian influence in these Vlachs. One example is the line I mentioned. E-Y161799, and it has Serb from Bosnia, Serbs from Dalmatia under E-BY4455 (even one Croat I think possibly), also there is one Romanian E-BY4455*. So these are proto-Albanians who became Vlachs, and then Serbs.

But they lost their Vlach language in 14th century already. They spoke Serbian when they arrived to Croatia.

Take Medieval Herzegovina "Vlachs", their groups being designated as Vlachs already in 14th, 15th century. They too carried 90+ % of Slavic names, their inscriptions were in Serbian. And their Y-DNA is mostly Slavic. Though they lived the Vlach way of life, were nomadic, they had Vlach legal status. These Vlachs were already Serbianized in 13th/14th century. Ofc prior to that they had little Slavic Y-DNA.
 

No. The documents they wrote were in Slavic not Romanian. Their personal names don't have more than 3-5 % of Vlach names. These "Vlachs" were not speakers of Romanian.

Vlachs which coming to Bosnia, Croatia etc have ties to southeastern Europe. Probably hills towards Albania and Greece. Other groups of Vlachs are probably coming from direction of Romania. There are several groups of Vlachs and directions of their migrations to the Western Balkans.

As for the fact that some of their documents were in Slavic, or names etc, it has nothing to do with their origin. Vlachs live in the area of Slavic lands and assimilation goes in all directions. What we can say with certainty is that the original Vlachs are not Serbs. In Bosnia and Croatia they later become Serbs and part also Croats etc.

Slavic underclass became Vlachs in the way of life and status and they assimilated the original Vlachs.

This is about assimilation which going in all directions. As for Vlachs status this may later be the case for all population of the hilly cattle-breeding Balkans but the Vlachs still have their original Balkan origin which is not related to the Slavs. As I said, it is more related to Albanians and even Greeks. I am talking here about the Vlachs of Southeast Europe. Romanian Vlachs have their own directions of migration.

Do you have any idea how the Romanian personal names looked like? Ciribiri from Istria are Romanian speakers, and their personal names from 16th century were very different from these Vlachs.

As I say, the question is which Vlachs are involved. Romanian, Greek, Albanian, Serbian, etc. So their names can be different but one language, etc, etc.

Some of these Serbs in Vlach status include even various modern Croat families.

There are no Serbs in Vlach status in general. There are probably Serbs, Croats, Albanians, etc in Vlachs groups but they have nothing to do with the Serbs. Promotion of "Vlach status" in Serbian historiography is mostly because most Serbs are actually of Vlach descent which have nothing to do with the original Serbs. Since these are large numbers, they call it "Status"(so that no one would think of another origin of Serbs). That's what academician Noel Malcolm or Polish historian Ilona Czamańska claim. Or Croatian-American historian Ivo Banac in his book which won first prize in America for year 83. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_in_medieval_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina#Legacy

Some of these Serbs in Vlach status include even various modern Croat families. Take a look for example at the old family of Poropat. Who belong to I-PH908>Y84307 , they have relatives in Serbs, as do most Croat PH908 (as all Balkan PH908 are proto-Serbs just as all R-Z2705 are proto-Albanians).

Unfortunately I-PH908 has nothing to do with proto Serbs. This mutation has no source in Lusatian Sorbs or Lusatia. For now, this mutation, like the others in the branch S17250 very likely have to do with proto Croats or White Croats which coming to Roman Dalmatia and later become this or that.

See https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31539-Genetics-confirm-migration-of-White-Croats-to-Croatia

From Serbian DNA project admin, I just pasted it in google translate, I don't have time to do it myself.
He is talking about the Vlachs of Istria, whose descendants are the Poropats, who were Catholicised early.

Serbian DNA project is only good for raw genetic data. Everything else is not usable for some big conclusions. They address their audience.

There was lot of Albanian influence in these Vlachs. One example is the line I mentioned. E-Y161799, and it has Serb from Bosnia, Serbs from Dalmatia under E-BY4455 (even one Croat I think possibly), also there is one Romanian E-BY4455*. So these are proto-Albanians who became Vlachs, and then Serbs.

It is an assimilation which goes in all directions. I've talked about that before.

But they lost their Vlach language in 14th century already. They spoke Serbian when they arrived to Croatia.

They do not speak Serbian when they come to Croatia. They speak the Slavic language. Where they adopted that Slavic language is a question. Whether it is from before ie from the Slavs of Greece, or from Macedonia, Montenegro, southern Serbia, Croatia, etc.


Take Medieval Herzegovina "Vlachs", their groups being designated as Vlachs already in 14th, 15th century. They too carried 90+ % of Slavic names, their inscriptions were in Serbian.

First we need to see what it's about (their inscriptions)? Like I said it’s assimilation. However, they have nothing to do with the Serbs in terms of common origin, ie that the Vlachs would actually be Serbs.

And their Y-DNA is mostly Slavic.

Yes, that's the assimilation we were talking about. The Vlachs also became part of the Slavs.

These Vlachs were already Serbianized in 13th/14th century.

These are probably parts of the Vlachs that were under Serbian rule. However assimilation took place a century or two later. According to Austrian historian Karl Kaser Vlachs in Croatia were assimilated into the Serbian ethnos during the 17th century. Also in Croatian, etc.
 
I heard some opinions that most of E-V13 in Greece is due to Arvanite and Vlach migrations.

But then again this is paradox because the supposed suppliers have less E-V13 than Central/Southern Greeks overall.

This needs more systematic and academic research.

This can easily be solved with a couple of hundreds of terminal clade/NGS tested samples from each group and region.

But Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria and Romania are not exactly overtested. The Albanian reference is ok, but the comparison is rather pure.

But its already sure, imho, it won't be just one source. The island and Anatolian Greeks and Turks will prove to be important.
 
Well if he tested at Igenea, that is tricky, do they even exist anymore. He could have tested 5+ years ago.

Yes they still exist, and i have contacted igenea if they maby can help me to find him, so am waiting for an for them to respond back to me
 
I have recently talked to one person feon Romania who matches me on ftdna Y -111 he allwso have Aromanian ancestery on his fathers side as me, he has orderd Y-700 to see what haplogroup he is, i am E-FT186965, thats a subgroup of E-Y97307, dose he get the same or a subgroup of E-Y97307, that could be a confirmation that it could be a Vlach haplogroup, or what do you guys say?
 
E-V13, in general, seems to be associated with Daco-Thracians.
 
E-V13, in general, seems to be associated with Daco-Thracians.

Indeed! But would be interesting to know if they have maby more some of there own subgroups or its just a mixed pot with all other Balkanic HG
 
I see Vlachs in the Balkans as a diaspora population. Once removed from their source location, over the centuries, the minority group obtains genetic elements from the native populations. That what remains is the culture. I.e. Pontian Greeks are mostly local Anatolian, because they have evolved away from the Aegaean. Similarly, modern Vlachs, whoever they are and where ever they came from, are mostly native but speak the Vlach language. I am willing to bet that Vlachs in Serbia are genetically related to Serbs and Vlachs in Greece are genetically related to Greeks, but with some degree of Vlach ancestry.

No group in the Balkans or in adjecent areas has completely absorbed the native population. The Slavs have not managed to replace the native Balkan populations. The Turks have not managed to replace pre-existing peoples in Anatolia. The Mycenaeans did not managae to replace the pre-Greeks etc. Why would the Vlachs have managed to maintain their genetic signature?
 
I see Vlachs in the Balkans as a diaspora population. Once removed from their source location, over the centuries, the minority group obtains genetic elements from the native populations. That what remains is the culture. I.e. Pontian Greeks are mostly local Anatolian, because they have evolved away from the Aegaean. Similarly, modern Vlachs, whoever they are and where ever they came from, are mostly native but speak the Vlach language. I am willing to bet that Vlachs in Serbia are genetically related to Serbs and Vlachs in Greece are genetically related to Greeks, but with some degree of Vlach ancestry.

No group in the Balkans or in adjecent areas has completely absorbed the native population. The Slavs have not managed to replace the native Balkan populations. The Turks have not managed to replace pre-existing peoples in Anatolia. The Mycenaeans did not managae to replace the pre-Greeks etc. Why would the Vlachs have managed to maintain their genetic signature?

But thats more autosomal if I understand you correctly, i would like to see in there HG if the have maby have some of there own subgroups, or is it just a bit of everything, this thing could leed to see if they have maby a majority origin from some part of the Balkan, or did they just ramdomly got latinized
 

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