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Thread: Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?

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    Vlach haplogroups & deep ancestry?


    Aromanian or Romanian, they call themselves Vlach.

    The Vlach people are primarily pastoralists involved in the raising of livestock, they have inhabited the mountains of Greece, Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova and the former Yugoslavia and profess the Eastern Orthodox Christian faith. Traditionally they spoke a proto-Romanian language and those Vlach who reside in Greece, Albania and the former Yugoslavia have taken the side of the Greek in wars and scuffles with other ethnic groups.

    This figure illustrates two of the three origin theories as proposed by Bosch et al. (2005), namely that the Vlachs originated from either the Dacians or the Thracians along the Danube.

    In a landmark study Bosch et al. (2005) concluded, 'The homogeneity of the Balkan populations prevented testing for the origin of the Aromuns, although a significant Roman contribution can be ruled out.'

    'All the Balkan populations analysed here were genetically homogeneous with the exception of some Aromun samples. This was particularly evident with the Y chromosome, as both haplogroup and 19 STR haplotype based data showed significant differences among the Aromun groups. Therefore, it seems that the Aromun populations do not constitute a homogeneous group separated from the rest of the Balkan populations, but that they present relative heterogeneity, especially for paternal lineage composition, between themselves.'

    Bosch et al. (2005) posit the following theories regarding the possible origins of the Vlach:
    1. Latinized Greeks
    2. Descendants of Dacians who lived north of the Danube
    3. Descendants of Thracians who lived south of the Danube
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 16-08-11 at 00:28.

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    You may be wondering why Bosch et al. were so sure that any Roman introduction may have been minimal, especially as the Aromun population traditionally spoke a Latin language. They explained the Roman introduction away by stating that the increased frequencies of R1b in the Aromuns appeared to be connected to drift rather than to external gene flow (from Romans) as there appeared few instances of matches with Italians and a marked affinity with other Balkan populations.

    The Bosch et al. study confirms what we are finding in Greek men with R1b-U152 on Crete and the Peloponnese. It appears the R1b in the Balkans was introduced before the Roman period with a possibility that the U152 subclade was introduced from Central Europe along the Danube and Dinaric corridors.
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 16-08-11 at 13:02.

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    I thought most of them were romanized latin speaking illyrians from dalmatia, bosnia, croatia, serbia. I'm sure dacian and thracian blood is in the mix too. I heard they were in yugoslavia before slavs, and slavs inhabited what is now romania. Slavs moved into yugoslavia and bulgaria then a lot of vlachs left to romania. They say themselves they were the roman army from the balkans that moved to dacia/romania. I think they just conquered the region and absorbed it's older inhabitants.
    Not all vlachs moved either some stayed and were absorbed into yugoslavs, croats used to call serbs vlachs in some historical writings too because of orthodoxy.
    I think they are very closely related to slavs of surrounding countries especially serbs.

    I have never heard of the vlach homeland in albania til now.

    All of the balkan was once roman territory maybe vlach has less to do with ancient ethnicity and more to do with language.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    I thought most of them were romanized latin speaking illyrians from dalmatia, bosnia, croatia, serbia.
    I once wrote an article on a mysterious warrior community from the region surrounding lake Scutari and Southern Montenegro from the early 15th century called the Pamalioti or Tamalioti. They were referred to as an Albanian tribe by official Serb sources, an Aromun or Serbian tribe according to Albanian sources of the time, a Roman or Dalmatian people according to Venetian sources and today all modern Albanian sources claim they were Albanian. The fact that the coast of Kotor, Dalmatia and Northern Albania was administered by Venice as 'Venetian Albania' suggests that the classification Albanian may be an administrative or geographic classification rather than an ethnic one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    They say themselves they were the roman army from the balkans that moved to dacia/romania.
    This is a well-known story and most people in the Balkans have heard it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    Not all vlachs moved either some stayed and were absorbed into yugoslavs, croats used to call serbs vlachs in some historical writings too because of orthodoxy.
    The exact same sentiment is expressed by many Greeks and Albanians, and I'm sure many in other regions of the Balkans too. There is generally a lot of goodwill shown towards the Vlachs and it's interesting how they are the one population who have been accepted by almost every Balkan nation except perhaps the Croat, Bosniac and Turk. This is a unique advantage the Vlachs do not share with other Balkan minority groups. Their customs and folk traditions are perceived by many as authentically Balkan, Greek, Serbian, Albanian etc. and people appear drawn to them and their ways when searching for tradition and Balkan idiosyncrasies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    I think they are very closely related to slavs of surrounding countries especially serbs.
    Bosch et al. (2005) found that Vlach STR haplotypes were similar to other Balkan populations, this included R1b (possibly U152) and I2 (Balkan subclade), with a general scarcity of R1a. This lack of R1a compared to the surrounding population is characteristic of the Vlach population and gives us an indication of the endemic haplogroups in the region before the Slavic migrations of the 6th century AD. Regarding R1a the Vlach correspond well with the Greeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    I have never heard of the vlach homeland in albania til now.
    The map is based on a rather controversial theory, ignoring many other regions where the Vlachs were established. The Vlach people formed a confederation much like what is found today where in rural communities a couple of villages get together to celebrate Orthodox feast days and celebrate their traditions together. The region of Albania was not exclusively Vlach though, they occupied primarily grazing land in the hills overlooking the coast and were separated with the introduction of geopolitical boundaries following the Balkan Wars. Some families remain separated even today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    All of the balkan was once roman territory maybe vlach has less to do with ancient ethnicity and more to do with language.
    The Romans may have ruled the Balkans but who were the Romans in the Balkans really, were they not people from the Balkans. How do you think it was possible to control the treacherous terrain without the support of the local leaders and elders. The Vlachs knew the terrain better than anybody as they walked across it every day, herding their livestock and hunting.
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 17-08-11 at 16:41.

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    As far as I know Vlach are probably descendants of Protobalkanic population , so they are Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians . There was no big genetic diference betwen Thracians and Dacians to begin with , because they are relative nations . Also after the great rebellion in Panonija and Illyria (6 -9 AC) Romans moved populations of all Balcanic provinces , some of Illyrians (including Panonians who were they subgroup living north of Sava river ) and Celts ( Scordisci) were moved to Tracia and Dacia , and some of Tracians and Dacians are moved to Illyric and Panonia . For that reason old tribes ceased to exist , and Romans formed new , artificial ones for egsample Tricornenses and Timaches . During Hunic and Avar atacks some of that population moved out , some died , but some is left and setled the mountain aereas where they could seak shelter against atacks . That is how Vlach and Albanians have formed , greatest number of Vlach in Serbian medieval states was in Stari Vlah ( Old Vlach) aeria and Montenegro. When Serbs setled they had to arrange comon living with Vlach so they were given special status , they have special taxes , autonomy under they own leaders - primićur and voyvoda , they lived in separate comunities - katuni , they could move from aeria to aeria seaking pastures for they sheeps , horses and cows ( they were mainly shepards) , while it has been forbiden for farmers to live they feudal masters . But all the times peasants are escaping to live more free like Vlachs , that proces can be traced in esceping pesants to free cities on Adriatic coast ( like Dubrovnik/Ragusa). So there was constant geneflow from Serbians to Vlach and mixing . I supose simillar proceses had ocured in Greece /Byzantium and Bulgaria . There was also some moving of Vlachs from Romania to Balkans especially Bulgaria , that Vlachs from Romania were mixed with Kumans , who were probably mainly R1a because they were old population with Turkic leading clan or something like that . I would not be suprised if they were mainly J2 which is strong in Caucasus and Khorazm , like first wave of Avars were.

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    As far as I know Vlach are probably descendants of Protobalkanic population , so they are Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians . There was no big genetic diference betwen Thracians and Dacians to begin with , because they are relative nations . Also after the great rebellion in Panonija and Illyria (6 -9 AC) Romans moved populations of all Balcanic provinces , some of Illyrians (including Panonians who were they subgroup living north of Sava river ) and Celts ( Scordisci) were moved to Tracia and Dacia , and some of Tracians and Dacians are moved to Illyric and Panonia . For that reason old tribes ceased to exist , and Romans formed new , artificial ones for egsample Tricornenses and Timaches . During Hunic and Avar atacks some of that population moved out , some died , but some is left and setled the mountain aereas where they could seak shelter against atacks . That is how Vlach and Albanians have formed , greatest number of Vlach in Serbian medieval states was in Stari Vlah ( Old Vlach) aeria and Montenegro. When Serbs setled they had to arrange comon living with Vlach so they were given special status , they have special taxes , autonomy under they own leaders - primićur and voyvoda , they lived in separate comunities - katuni , they could move from aeria to aeria seaking pastures for they sheeps , horses and cows ( they were mainly shepards) , while it has been forbiden for farmers to live they feudal masters . But all the times peasants are escaping to live more free like Vlachs , that proces can be traced in esceping pesants to free cities on Adriatic coast ( like Dubrovnik/Ragusa). So there was constant geneflow from Serbians to Vlach and mixing . I supose simillar proceses had ocured in Greece /Byzantium and Bulgaria . There was also some moving of Vlachs from Romania to Balkans especially Bulgaria , that Vlachs from Romania were mixed with Kumans , who were probably mainly R1a because they were old population with Turkic leading clan or something like that . I would not be suprised if they were mainly J2 which is strong in Caucasus and Khorazm , like first wave of Avars were.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    I once wrote an article on a defunct group from Scutari and Southern Montenegro from the early 15th century called the Pamalioti. They were referred to as an Albanian tribe according to Serbian sources, an Aromun tribe according to Albanian sources of the time, Roman or Dalmatian according to Venetian sources and today all modern Albanian sources claim they were Albanian. The fact that the coast of Kotor, Dalmatia and Northern Albania was administered by Venice as 'Venetian Albania' suggests that the classification Albanian may be an administrative or geographic classification rather than an ethnic one.



    This is a well-known story and most people in the Balkans have heard it.



    The exact same sentiment is expressed by many Greeks and Albanians, and I'm sure many in other regions of the Balkans too. There is generally a lot of goodwill shown towards the Vlachs and it's interesting how they are the one population who have been accepted by almost every Balkan nation except perhaps the Croat, Bosniac and Turk. This is a unique advantage the Vlachs do not share with other Balkan minority groups. Their customs and folk traditions are perceived by many as authentically Balkan, Greek, Serbian, Albanian etc. and people appear drawn to them and their ways when searching for tradition and Balkan idiosyncrasies.



    Bosch et al. (2005) found that Vlach STR haplotypes were similar to other Balkan populations, this included R1b (possibly U152) and I2 (Balkan subclade), with no R1a. This complete lack of R1a is characteristic of the Vlach population and gives us an indication of the endemic haplogroups in the region before the Slavic migrations of the 6th century AD.



    The Vlach people formed a confederation much like today where a couple of villages get together every holiday and protect the greater interests of their society. The region of Albania was not exclusively Vlach, they occupied primarily grazing land in the hills overlooking the coast.



    The Romans may have ruled the Balkans but who were the Romans in the Balkans really, were they not people from the Balkans. How do you think it was possible to control the treacherous terrain without the support of the local leaders and elders. The Vlachs knew the terrain better than anybody as they walked across it every day, herding their livestock and hunting.
    i agree with you

    just an issue on the Pamalioti , they arrived with the Tuzi tribe and resided in the duchy of Zeta.
    The slavs tried to push these people to the coast which was under Venice rule. In 1422 War arose between venice and Zeta, which stopped after the Pastrovici at Zbor in April 1423 agreed to terms of suzerainty with Venice. In 1442 Stefan Vukcic went to war against venice again but this time Venice got aid from the Pamalioti and tuzi tribe and established them along the Bojana river. By 1443 war was over. These tribes according to venetian script are said to be vlachs from dacia who also where in northern bulgaria.

    some say , the albanian Pamalioti have a Ghegs language , while the Tuzi have a Tosk one.

    Note: Byantine recognised bulgar slavs in 1188 and serbians in 1190.

    I would like to know when did these dacian "albanians" arrive on the adriatic

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    i agree with you

    just an issue on the Pamalioti , they arrived with the Tuzi tribe and resided in the duchy of Zeta.
    The slavs tried to push these people to the coast which was under Venice rule. In 1422 War arose between venice and Zeta, which stopped after the Pastrovici at Zbor in April 1423 agreed to terms of suzerainty with Venice. In 1442 Stefan Vukcic went to war against venice again but this time Venice got aid from the Pamalioti and tuzi tribe and established them along the Bojana river. By 1443 war was over. These tribes according to venetian script are said to be vlachs from dacia who also where in northern bulgaria.

    some say , the albanian Pamalioti have a Ghegs language , while the Tuzi have a Tosk one.

    Note: Byantine recognised bulgar slavs in 1188 and serbians in 1190.

    I would like to know when did these dacian "albanians" arrive on the adriatic
    The Pamalioti and Pastrovici are mentioned in Venetian documents as title holders (benemeriti) and the Tuzi, not mentioned in period sources simply refers to the lords of the region between Podgorica and lake Scutari. These three areas were settled by wealthy landholders often described as the lords of Drivasto and Scutari. They appear to have been part of the ailing Byzantine Empire but found their place under the Serenissima as they had a good command of the local languages, the terrain and owned a commercial fleet of their own, based on the islands of Korcula (derived from the name Corcyra or Corfu) and Corfu proper. These areas were a Byzantine stronghold and were significant for these shipping 'Vlach' families as it was strategically situated between Corfu and Venice (logistics & warehousing). The term Albanian refers to the fact that these families were previously part of the 'Despotate of Albania' and kept their lands in Albania proper for many years following Venetian rule. They were not traditional Vlach but because they remained independent from the Serbian Balsic family and could not be viewed as purely Albanian the term Vlach seems to have been used as many of these families had Vlach ancestry from the mainland jus off Corfu, near Ioannina and the Zagoria villages. For the most part they appear to have ruled over their own lands surrounding lake Scurari, with a military and naval infrastructure based on various islands off the coast of Zeta and Epirus, they were styled as Albanian and Vlach depending on the source. They included some well known families from Corfu who were given full autonomy and titles of nobility in exchange for military support against the enemies of Venice. Because of their influence, these families often served as proconsuls for the Serb ruler, the Porte, Venice and the Angevin rulers during various periods. They were Greek and Italian-speaking, were members of the church of Constantinople, and owned large flocks of livestock managed primarily by the Vlach community.

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    I think the bulk of albanian history is a mystery, they have no written records. Outside sources are very sparse, I do not proclaim them to be illyrians either, not enough info to declare anything as fact. I think they obviously have some illyrian in them but so does every other balkan nation.

    I have heard wild claims from nationalists there that are laughable at best. I think anything related to any balkan countries needs to have various sources from more then one country to be verified due to everyone hating everyone else there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    As far as I know Vlach are probably descendants of Protobalkanic population , so they are Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians . There was no big genetic diference betwen Thracians and Dacians to begin with , because they are relative nations . Also after the great rebellion in Panonija and Illyria (6 -9 AC) Romans moved populations of all Balcanic provinces , some of Illyrians (including Panonians who were they subgroup living north of Sava river ) and Celts ( Scordisci) were moved to Tracia and Dacia , and some of Tracians and Dacians are moved to Illyric and Panonia . For that reason old tribes ceased to exist , and Romans formed new , artificial ones for egsample Tricornenses and Timaches . During Hunic and Avar atacks some of that population moved out , some died , but some is left and setled the mountain aereas where they could seak shelter against atacks . That is how Vlach and Albanians have formed , greatest number of Vlach in Serbian medieval states was in Stari Vlah ( Old Vlach) aeria and Montenegro. When Serbs setled they had to arrange comon living with Vlach so they were given special status , they have special taxes , autonomy under they own leaders - primićur and voyvoda , they lived in separate comunities - katuni , they could move from aeria to aeria seaking pastures for they sheeps , horses and cows ( they were mainly shepards) , while it has been forbiden for farmers to live they feudal masters . But all the times peasants are escaping to live more free like Vlachs , that proces can be traced in esceping pesants to free cities on Adriatic coast ( like Dubrovnik/Ragusa). So there was constant geneflow from Serbians to Vlach and mixing . I supose simillar proceses had ocured in Greece /Byzantium and Bulgaria . There was also some moving of Vlachs from Romania to Balkans especially Bulgaria , that Vlachs from Romania were mixed with Kumans , who were probably mainly R1a because they were old population with Turkic leading clan or something like that . I would not be suprised if they were mainly J2 which is strong in Caucasus and Khorazm , like first wave of Avars were.
    I suppose that because you mention Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians as proto-Balkanic people you do not necessarily think of other Balkan populations such as the ancient Greek population from Epirus or the Peloponnese as proto-Balkanic. This is an interesting viewpoint, what do you consider proto-Balkanic and what would you consider typical proto-Balkanic haplogroups? What haplogroups are typical in your opinion of the Illyrians, the Thracians and Dacians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    I think the bulk of albanian history is a mystery, they have no written records. Outside sources are very sparse, I do not proclaim them to be illyrians either, not enough info to declare anything as fact. I think they obviously have some illyrian in them but so does every other balkan nation.
    The amount of haplogroup differentiation between Balkan populations is insignificant making the study of specific subclades most useful. If Albanians are in fact predominantly Illyrian then E1b1b (27.5% in Albanians) may indicate Illyrian descent as we find high frequencies of this marker in all Balkan peoples even Bulgarians (16%) whom we know migrated to the Balkans in the 6th century AD. The highest frequencies are found along the Western side of the Balkan peninsular. The highest frequency of E1b1b is found in central Greece (29.5%) with southern Greece not far off (27%). However, this marker is found in 23% of modern Macedonians and 20.5% of modern Serbs. The East has markedly less E1b1b which makes sense if you look at where ancient Illyrian settlements were concentrated.

    Dienekes calculated the relative ages of E1b1b in various Balkan communities:

    N Age (25y/gen) Age (30y/gen)
    Nea Nikomedeia 8 149 1725 BC 2470 BC
    Sesklo/Dimini 20 71 225 AD 130 BC
    Lerna Franchthi 20 120 1000 BC 1600 BC
    Crete 13 68 300 AD 40 BC
    Haplozone 103 134 1350 BC 2020 BC
    Aromuns (12) 32 71 225 AD 130 BC
    Aromuns (8) 32 73 175 AD 190 BC
    Slavomacedonians (12) 13 51 725 AD 470 AD
    Slavomacedonians (8) 13 59 525 AD 230 AD
    Albanians (12) 9 70 250 AD 100 BC
    Albanians (8) 9 59 525 AD 230 AD


    From these findings it would appear the E1b1b is a relatively young Albanian marker and was first established in the region of Central Macedonia in Greece.
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07...explained.html



    The hotspot of E1b1b in Albanians from Kosova and Albania could well be as a consequence of genetic drift from a relatively recent introduction into the area (c.100BC) from ancient Macedonia, Greece.
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 16-08-11 at 13:06.

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    I thought albanians were predominantly R1a and the hap associated with illyrians is I2a2 which if I remember correctly was highest in croats. I thought Eb1b was the hellenic marker, even though it is highest (I think) in kosovo/north albania. When you say Eb1b you mean E-v13 right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    I thought albanians were predominantly R1a and the hap associated with illyrians is I2a2 which if I remember correctly was highest in croats. I thought Eb1b was the hellenic marker, even though it is highest (I think) in kosovo/north albania. When you say Eb1b you mean E-v13 right?
    Albania has only 9% R1a. The major haplogroups found in Albania are E1b1b (V13) at 27.5%, J2 at 19.5% and R1b (Albanian cluster found) at 16%. Albanian I2* and I2a make up 12%.

    E-V13 as an Hellenic marker, I think you are possibly right if you consider ancient Macedonians to be Hellenic, which I certainly do.

    Studies seem to replicate the co-occurrence of haplogroups J2 and R1b in the Balkans; these two haplogroups are frequent in most populations, contrasting with most of the Slavs from the western Balkans that have low frequencies of R1b and J2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    In a landmark study Bosch et al. (2005) concluded, 'The homogeneity of the Balkan populations prevented testing for the origin of the Aromuns, although a significant Roman contribution can be ruled out.'
    The Aromuns tested by Bosch et al. differed a bit from place to place, but I think that this is due in great part to the tiny sampling size (19 to 65 samples for each group). You can't get a good idea of haplogroup frequencies with less than 100 samples. I would say that 250 is the minimum to avoid excessive noise and sampling bias.

    Anyway, the Aromuns all had one thing in common. They have a high frequency of haplogroup E1b1b (around 17%), J2 (23% in average), I2a2 (also 23%), and except the group from Dukasi in Albania also a lot of R1b (around 25%). Another element that distinguish them from non-Aroum population in the Balkans is the near completely absence of Germanic haplogroups (I1, I2b, R1b-S21). Only the Macedonian Aromuns had a significant percentage of R1a (all of it Slavic).

    It's hard to understand how Bosch et al. can rule out a significant Roman contribution since R1b, J2 and E1b1b are all major haplogroups in Italy. What else did they expect to find ? More G2a ? The only way to assess properly the Roman contribution among the Vlachs is to test R1b subclades and see how much of it is S28/U152.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 17-08-11 at 08:34.
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    I agree there has to be some roman contribution to the gene pool to change the language to latin based, there was no rosetta stone back then.

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    What is this Roman marker of R1b , when Rome was a tiny spec of the populace of Italy around 500BC. The marker if anything would reflect the etrucan, sabellic and gallic-ligurian marker as these are far greater in populace than the Roman.

    As for this E1b map. it seems that it is a greek ( maybe aeolian ), epirote and doric marker, it cannot be an illyrian one as there is less than 10% north of modern Montenegro.
    This could be ......as greek historians say, is the boundry of the celtic-illyrian mix.
    The heal and toe of Italy represent greek migration plus epirote holdings from pHyyrus times.

    this just concludes that Albanians migrated to there present locale and assimilated the local people. be them illyrian, doric, epirote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's hard to understand how Bosch et al. can rule out a significant Roman contribution since R1b, J2 and E1b1b are all major haplogroups in Italy. What else did they expect to find ? More G2a ? The only way to assess properly the Roman contribution among the Vlachs is to test R1b subclades and see how much of it is S28/U152.
    I had a look at their R1b STR values and found more U152 predicted in the Aromuns from Stip (10 according to my estimations) and the Aromuns from Krusevo (est. at 4 individuals), both regions in modern Macedonia. This is contrasted by the other R1b haplotypes found in the Romanian and Albanian Aromun samples that displayed more DYS393 = 12 common in Anatolia. Overall the R1b picture in the Balkans appears more complex than a Roman gene flow would suggest.
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 17-08-11 at 18:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milovan View Post
    I agree there has to be some roman contribution to the gene pool to change the language to latin based, there was no rosetta stone back then.


    Let me state for the record that the Vlach language was a form of Romanian, hence the name Aromun (from Aromanian). However, it is officially called Macedo-Romanian and is on a very different playing field to the Latin spoken by the Romans.

    As you can see from the above table, Dalmatian and the Ibero-Romance languages stem from Vulgar Latin as well but they do not carry any significant Roman U152 footprint.

    Macedo-Romanian has far fewer Slavic words than Romanian, and many more Greek words, a reflection of the close contact of Aromanian with Greek through much of its history.


    Note: Macedonia depicted on this map refers to the modern state of FYROM and should not be confused with Central Macedonia located to the south in Northern Greece.

    Here we can see the regions where Macedo-Romanian (yellow) is spoken and where Megleno-Romanian (purple) is spoken.
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 16-08-11 at 16:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    I suppose that because you mention Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians as proto-Balkanic people you do not necessarily think of other Balkan populations such as the ancient Greek population from Epirus or the Peloponnese as proto-Balkanic. This is an interesting viewpoint, what do you consider proto-Balkanic and what would you consider typical proto-Balkanic haplogroups? What haplogroups are typical in your opinion of the Illyrians, the Thracians and Dacians?
    QUOTE=Dorianfinder;378132]I suppose that because you mention Illyrians , Thracians and Dacians as proto-Balkanic people you do not necessarily think of other Balkan populations such as the ancient Greek population from Epirus or the Peloponnese as proto-Balkanic. This is an interesting viewpoint, what do you consider proto-Balkanic and what would you consider typical proto-Balkanic haplogroups? What haplogroups are typical in your opinion of the Illyrians, the Thracians and Dacians?[/QUOTE]
    I am sorry I mised to mention Hellen contribution , because I was mainly speaking about Vlachs in today Serbia and Bosnia , I dont know much of Macedonian and Greece Vlachs, I also forgot to include Celts .I speaked about Roman mixing of Illyrians and Thracians after 9 AD , which didnt include Hellens , but did Celts. By my oppinion ProtoBalcanic genes are : E1b1b , some of J1 and J2 ( some come with Turks ) , I2*B , some R1a (comon ancestor before 11.000 years ) , G2a , some R1b ( exept Germanic ), T and L . By my oppinion I2a2-Din is not ProtoBalcanic but Sarmatian .
    Also when you speak about Vlach in XIV century in Serbian state( Pastrovici in Zeta ), you dont speak about separate nation , by that time Vlach is become social category ( again I speak just about Serbia ) , sheperds who difrently from peasants have freedom of movement , paid different taxes , had autonomy under they own leaders. They also use to have Serbian names ( some of them ) , speak Serbian (all documents are on Serbian ) . When Turks have conquere , Serbia they also use this special social category for form of unpaid soldiers who are not paing taxes but going to war instead , and geting lands for plaughing for that service . My ancestors use to have Vlachian status , I even have a sultan berat . That is also reason why Croats call Serbs in Croatia Vlachs - because they moved there in that status to make a wor for Turks or for Austrians.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I have added the Vlachs to Eupedia's Y-DNA tables. It makes it easier to visualise and compare. If there is one stark contrast between the Vlachs and the non-Vlach populations of the eastern Balkans (North Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria) is that the Vlachs have considerably more R1b (21.5% against a regional average of 14.5%) and J2 (19.5% against 15%) and considerably less E1b1b (16.5% against 20%) than everybody else. The percentages of I2a2, G2a and T fit well in the average for the region. R1a is lower than in North Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria or Romania, but similar to Albania.

    I think that the increased frequency of R1b and J2 could indeed be a proof of Roman ancestry. I have long hypothesised that the original Romans (before the empire) were predominantly a blend of R1b-S28 and J2 people (+ a substantial G2a minority).

    The Vlachs being Latin-speakers, in a region that was mostly Greek-speaking from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages, and with a substantial Slavic community since the Middle Ages, it seems inevitable to conclude that E1b1b was brought by Greek speakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post


    Let me state for the record that the Vlach language was a form of Romanian, hence the name Aromun (from Aromanian). However, it is officially called Macedo-Romanian and is on a very different playing field to the Latin spoken by the Romans.

    As you can see from the above table, Dalmatian and the Ibero-Romance languages stem from Vulgar Latin as well but they do not carry any significant Roman U152 footprint.

    Macedo-Romanian has far fewer Slavic words than Romanian, and many more Greek words, a reflection of the close contact of Aromanian with Greek through much of its history.


    Note: Macedonia depicted on this map refers to the modern state of FYROM and should not be confused with Central Macedonia located to the south in Northern Greece.

    Here we can see the regions where Macedo-Romanian (yellow) is spoken and where Megleno-Romanian (purple) is spoken.
    If you are trying to say that languages played a part in the U152 settlement , in which in italy is mostly in the North, then you language tree is in error because the Northern italian languages belong to the Gallo-Romance group and not the Proto-Italain group.

    General classification



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Italian_languages

    I do agree with you that the Roman Latin and Romanian is similar, but check the lost Latin areas in map in the link below


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Spezia-Rimini_Line

    To conclude - The only U152 to have been settled in the area in question would only have come after the Roman occupation of all Italy and the use of gallic Romanized men, be them from france or Northitaly

    David Faux states that there is only 1.8% of U152 in Romania area.

    The only other possiblity is that the celts reached the Danube delta ( black sea) , they have some U152
    Sometime between 400 and 270 BC western Celts settled in southern Poland, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria. Celtic place names even occur as far east as western Ukraine.(R1b1c10 and the Central European Celtic homeland)
    I outlined observations based on the doubling of the sample size of my
    R1b1c10 database at http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

    The Vlachs being Latin-speakers, in a region that was mostly Greek-speaking from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages, and with a substantial Slavic community since the Middle Ages, it seems inevitable to conclude that E1b1b was brought by Greek speakers.
    What year are these vlachs?. You don't think that over 200Years of Genoese U152 settlements could have palyed a part?
    http://www.revistapeuce.icemtl.ro/17...rlander%20.pdf.

    merchants and royality was still using latin up to the 15th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have added the Vlachs to Eupedia's Y-DNA tables. It makes it easier to visualise and compare. If there is one stark contrast between the Vlachs and the non-Vlach populations of the eastern Balkans (North Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria) is that the Vlachs have considerably more R1b (21.5% against a regional average of 14.5%) and J2 (19.5% against 15%) and considerably less E1b1b (16.5% against 20%) than everybody else. The percentages of I2a2, G2a and T fit well in the average for the region. R1a is lower than in North Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria or Romania, but similar to Albania.

    Based only on Dr. David Faux's database, but some numbers from the FTDNA project (Tibor) show a similar trend: L2 as a percentage of U152 increases as one nears the North Sea.

    The sample size is too small and any conclusions regarding this graph for Romania would be premature, it does suggest that Romanian U152 is not of the L2+ variety.

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    The Aromun studied thus far have been from outside Greece. This is important as any convergence with the Greek percentages carries more weight and suggests what R1b and J2 levels may have looked like previously in Greece.

    North Greece: I = 22.5% R1a = 18% R1b = 13% G = 4.5% J2 = 15% E = 20.5%

    Vlachs outside Greece: I = 20.5% R1a = 10% R1b = 21.5% G = 3.5% J2 = 24.5% E = 16.5%


    South Greece: I = 11.5% R1a = 10.5% R1b = 20.5% G = 3.5% J2 = 19.5% E = 27%

    The marked decrease in I2 found in South Greece suggests a limited penetration from the north.
    The high J2 figure for the Vlachs outside Greece is very interesting, suggesting that the Vlachs are of ancient Balkan stock and not an imported minority of Roman mercenaries as some have suggested. High R1b figures correlate well with South Greece (20.5%) and it would be interesting to compare figures with the Vlachs in Greece.

    The Battaglia study found 17.4% R1b in a sample of 92 Greeks and 14% R1b in a sample of 57 Greeks from Central Macedonia in Greece. This suggests an increase in R1b frequency towards the South of 24%. This trend was replicated in the King study with 17% R1b on Crete and 15.8% R1b in the Peloponnese as opposed to only 5.3% in Thessaly.

    Similar J2 trend exists in Greece with Crete and the Peloponnese (South Greece) indicating similar levels to the Vlach population studied thus far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post

    The Aromun studied thus far have been from outside Greece. This is important as any convergence with the Greek percentages carries more weight and suggests what R1b and J2 levels may have looked like previously in Greece.

    North Greece: I = 22.5% R1a = 18% R1b = 13% G = 4.5% J2 = 15% E = 20.5%

    Vlachs outside Greece: I = 20.5% R1a = 10% R1b = 21.5% G = 3.5% J2 = 24.5% E = 16.5%


    South Greece: I = 11.5% R1a = 10.5% R1b = 20.5% G = 3.5% J2 = 19.5% E = 27%

    The marked decrease in I2 found in South Greece suggests a limited penetration from the north.
    The high J2 figure for the Vlachs outside Greece is very interesting, suggesting that the Vlachs are of ancient Balkan stock and not an imported minority of Roman mercenaries as some have suggested. High R1b figures correlate well with South Greece (20.5%) and it would be interesting to compare figures with the Vlachs in Greece.

    The Battaglia study found 17.4% R1b in a sample of 92 Greeks and 14% R1b in a sample of 57 Greeks from Central Macedonia in Greece. This suggests an increase in R1b frequency towards the South of 24%. This trend was replicated in the King study with 17% R1b on Crete and 15.8% R1b in the Peloponnese as opposed to only 5.3% in Thessaly.

    Similar J2 trend exists in Greece with Crete and the Peloponnese (South Greece) indicating similar levels to the Vlach population studied thus far.
    The higher frequency of R1b and J2 in South Greece is interesting because it makes the cradle of the Classical Greek Antiquity (Athens, Corinth, Sparta, Olympia...) closer to the Romans.

    However, if you insinuate that the Vlachs come from South Greece, then I have to disagree. Why would they speak Latin (then Aromanian) if they were from Greece, since Latin was never widely spoken in Greece even under the Roman occupation ? (actually it is the educated Romans who learnt Greek rather than the other way round)

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