Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Celts and Haplogroup G/J

  1. #1
    Elite member Achievements:
    VeteranThree FriendsRecommendation Second Class25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    14-11-10
    Posts
    2,504
    Points
    28,134
    Level
    51
    Points: 28,134, Level: 51
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 516
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurdish
    Country: Germany



    1 members found this post helpful.

    Celts and Haplogroup G/J

    Who else did recognize the correlation between Celtiic areas and Haplogroup G/J. It seems compared to other parts of Central and North Europe these areas got more of it.
    Yellow: core Hallstatt territory.


    Austria - G 8%, J2 12%
    Switzerland - G 8%, J2 6%, J1 1%
    South Germany - G 6%, J2 5.5%, J1 1%
    Czech Republic - G 5%, J2 6%
    France Poitou-Saintonge G 7.5%, J2 6%

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    In Switzerland and parts of North Italy in preroman times there was tribe of Raeti , they use to speak languague close to Etruscans . Most of scientist believe they were descendants of Etruscans who escaped from valey of river Po in north Italy infront of invading Celts.
    Etruscans were from Asia Minor , that could explain higher G2 J2 and J1. About Raeti :
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeti
    G2a could also be conected with high mountains ," haplogroup of goatbriders".
    Also by findings in Neolitic sites G was dominant in western Europe of that time , in Treilles in France was mainly G2a and some I2a1 ( now on Sardinia I believe it to be Vandalic ) , and in Derenburg in Saxonia Anhalt ,Germany there was mainly G2a with some F* .
    Anyway it seem like G2a and J2 was very involved in creating of Celtic culture , because it was present in that aeria before Celts ( R1b ?) and surely had some influence on them

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    The Raeti did not speak similar to the Etruscans , but spoke a language similar to venetic as per recent linguistic studies. They could have been etruscans fleeing north , but lately they seem to be associated with the ligurians.

    The remaining raeti are now called ladini and their languge is ladin

    some history
    http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...lts/celt1b.pdf

  4. #4
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran25000 Experience Points
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    29,219
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,219, Level: 52
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 531
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Yellow: core Hallstatt territory.


    Austria - G 8%, J2 12%
    Switzerland - G 8%, J2 6%, J1 1%
    South Germany - G 6%, J2 5.5%, J1 1%
    Czech Republic - G 5%, J2 6%
    France Poitou-Saintonge G 7.5%, J2 6%
    Poitou-Saintonge is not located in the Yellow zone but Alsace does and has 9% of J2

  5. #5
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran25000 Experience Points
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    29,219
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,219, Level: 52
    Level completed: 52%, Points required for next Level: 531
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: France



    G2a may have started the iron age, bringing sophisticated metallurgy from the Black sea area to the Alpes (Halstatt).
    I think that R1b L11 predates the Celtic era and entered Europe with the Beakers during the Chalcolithic.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Dorianfinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-08-11
    Posts
    466
    Points
    18,771
    Level
    41
    Points: 18,771, Level: 41
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 179
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-FGC13617
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b1

    Ethnic group
    European
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Who else did recognize the correlation between Celtiic areas and Haplogroup G/J. It seems compared to other parts of Central and North Europe these areas got more of it.
    Yellow: core Hallstatt territory.


    Austria - G 8%, J2 12%
    Switzerland - G 8%, J2 6%, J1 1%
    South Germany - G 6%, J2 5.5%, J1 1%
    Czech Republic - G 5%, J2 6%
    France Poitou-Saintonge G 7.5%, J2 6%

    The highest frequencies of both G and J2 can be found in the Eastern Roman sphere:

    Turkey/Anatolia 11% G and 24% J2
    Crete 9.5% G and 34% J2
    Cyprus 9% G and 37% J2
    South Italy 8.5% G and 23.5% J2
    Aegean Islands 8.5% G and 20% J2
    Central Italy 8.5% G and 19.5% J2

    These haplogroups were possibly carried together as part of a Greco-Roman admixture within the R1b-U152 sphere. It also indicates the proto-Celtic R1b-U152 link to the Greco-Roman East.

    A thorough study of R1b-U152 is needed throughout the above Eastern Med. countries to ascertain the levels of U152 and geographic distribution. It is long overdue!

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The Raeti did not speak similar to the Etruscans , but spoke a language similar to venetic as per recent linguistic studies. They could have been etruscans fleeing north , but lately they seem to be associated with the ligurians.

    The remaining raeti are now called ladini and their languge is ladin

    some history
    http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...lts/celt1b.pdf
    I was not avare of that new researches , thanks for info . Is there increased G2a in Veneto to? Are ladini living in Switzerland ?

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I was not avare of that new researches , thanks for info . Is there increased G2a in Veneto to? Are ladini living in Switzerland ?
    The Ladini ( raeti) have always been in the alps of veneto since pre bronze age, the Ancient Veneti NEVER ever reached the alps.
    The ladini population is only 53000 at the moment. Yes they are G2a , same as the Raeti

    The other language between the veneti and slovenia is Friuli , 550000 people speak an ancient gallic language from Narbon ( southern France )

    With I2a1 M26 being a 'western" I haplogroup , which as stated on 1st July 2011, ranges between basques to venice, I cannot see where the friuli fit in. Since they where the ancient Carni tribe, I figure they could be G2a or maybe even the "eastern" I2a2

  9. #9
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The Raeti did not speak similar to the Etruscans , but spoke a language similar to venetic as per recent linguistic studies. They could have been etruscans fleeing north , but lately they seem to be associated with the ligurians.
    Sorry, could you show me any evidence that Raetic was similar to Venetic? That is the first time I hear this, because from what I have seen, language in the so-called "Raetian" inscriptions is obviously similar to Etruscan:

    http://adolfozavaroni.tripod.com/retiche.htm

    The problem however is the question if there really is a connection between the Raetians (who from the looks of it weren't a homogenous ethnic group) and the language in the "Raetic" inscriptions.

    The remaining raeti are now called ladini and their languge is ladin
    Sorry, the Ladin language and ancient Raetian are obviously completely unrelated, even if they are in the same general area.

    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    G2a may have started the iron age, bringing sophisticated metallurgy from the Black sea area to the Alpes (Halstatt).
    I think that R1b L11 predates the Celtic era and entered Europe with the Beakers during the Chalcolithic.
    G2a was present in Europe all along since the Neolithic. It was the dominant Haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers in Europe. The present-day distribution of G2a may be explained by the fact that the Neolithic farmers survived the arrival of the Indo-Europeans better in more remote hilly/mountainous areas than in lowlying ones. Having said this, it is certainly conceivable that there a double effect at work with G2a, with both G that remained distributed across Europe from Neolithic times, and G that was dispersed and re-introduced across Europe in higher concentrations by the spread of Hallstatt and La-Tene.

    Regarding R1b, L11 clearly predates the classical Celtic cultures, and I absolutely agree about it's (likely) arrival in Western Europe in the Copper Age.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I was not avare of that new researches , thanks for info . Is there increased G2a in Veneto to? Are ladini living in Switzerland ?
    The Ladini ( raeti) have always been in the alps of veneto since pre bronze age, the Ancient Veneti NEVER ever reached the alps.
    The ladini population is only 53000 at the moment. Yes they are G2a , same as the Raeti

    The other language between the veneti and slovenia is Friuli , 550000 people speak an ancient gallic language from Narbon ( southern France )

    With I2a1 M26 being a 'western" I haplogroup , which as stated on 1st July 2011, ranges between basques to venice, I cannot see where the friuli fit in. Since they where the ancient Carni tribe, I figure they could be G2a or maybe even the "eastern" I2a2

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    It seams from thread posted by Taranis , Raetic is very similar to Etruscan inscriptions , that can eather mean that Raeti are Etruscan or they only taked their alphabet ? What are the proofs Ladini are Raeti ? Is there any I2a2 in Ladini which I believe to be Venetic ?
    About Friuli shouldnt they be R1b if they come from Narbona ?
    Thanks for answering .

  12. #12
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    It seams from thread posted by Taranis , Raetic is very similar to Etruscan inscriptions , that can eather mean that Raeti are Etruscan or they only taked their alphabet ?
    Actually both. Yes, the "Raetic" inscriptions are written in the Etruscan alphabet, but so were Celtic languages (Gaulish, Lepontic, Noric) and Italic languages (Oscan, Umbrian). But there is also features in the Raetic inscriptions that show that the language is similar to Etruscan:

    - impossible consonant clusters
    - making full use of the sound inventory of the Etruscan alphabet:

    if I may take from the Steinberg inscription:

    - Hesi Khlpan Lape kerakwe
    - Shakateshtan Lape Phakate

    I might also point out that the suffix "-kwe" is well-known from Etruscan as a collective adjective particle.

    For comparison, take a look at this sentence from the Pyrgi Tablets:

    - "Munistas Thuwas Tamereska Ilakwe Tulerase."

    Also, look at the samples above? At first glance, does that look vaguely like an Italic or a Celtic language? I would say no.

    What are the proofs Ladini are Raeti ? Is there any I2a2 in Ladini which I believe to be Venetic ?
    About Friuli shouldnt they be R1b if they come from Narbona ?
    Thanks for answering .
    Truth be told, I have no idea what Zanipolo has been trying to say there...
    Last edited by Taranis; 30-08-11 at 16:57. Reason: formating error

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Overdrive1000 Experience PointsThree FriendsVeteran
    Bodin's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-08-11
    Location
    Praia , Cape Verde
    Posts
    504
    Points
    4,934
    Level
    20
    Points: 4,934, Level: 20
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 116
    Overall activity: 5.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1b-Din
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2

    Ethnic group
    Srbin
    Country: Serbia



    [QUOTE=Taranis;378550]
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    It seams from thread posted by Taranis , Raetic is very similar to Etruscan inscriptions , that can eather mean that Raeti are Etruscan or they only taked their alphabet ?

    Actually both. Yes, the "Raetic" inscriptions are written in the Etruscan alphabet, but so were Celtic languages (Gaulish, Lepontic, Noric) and Italic languages (Oscan, Umbrian). But there is also features in the Raetic inscriptions that show that the language is similar to Etruscan:

    - impossible consonant clusters
    - making full use of the sound inventory of the Etruscan alphabet:

    if I may take from the Steinberg inscription:

    - Hesi Khlpan Lape kerakwe
    - Shakateshtan Lape Phakate

    I might also point out that the suffix "-kwe" is well-known from Etruscan as a collective adjective particle.

    For comparison, take a look at this sentence from the Pyrgi Tablets:

    - "Munistas Thuwas Tamereska Ilakwe Tulerase."

    Also, look at the samples above? At first glance, does that look vaguely like an Italic or a Celtic language? I would say no.



    Truth be told, I have no idea what Zanipolo has been trying to say there...
    It sounds to me that your claims have more sence , I also use to believe that Raeti were Etruscan , but then Zanipolo said there is some new proves showing they were Liburni , and I ask him to present that new proves , I expected he would knew being Italian ( I gesing he is ?) , but he didnt present any proves , and you did so I am back in my old believes - Raeti were Etruscans untill diferent is proven . Thank you for answering , and presenting proves.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteran10000 Experience Points
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Posts
    2,073
    Points
    22,792
    Level
    46
    Points: 22,792, Level: 46
    Level completed: 25%, Points required for next Level: 758
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Z19945
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1a4o

    Ethnic group
    Down Under
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry, could you show me any evidence that Raetic was similar to Venetic? That is the first time I hear this, because from what I have seen, language in the so-called "Raetian" inscriptions is obviously similar to Etruscan:

    http://adolfozavaroni.tripod.com/retiche.htm

    The problem however is the question if there really is a connection between the Raetians (who from the looks of it weren't a homogenous ethnic group) and the language in the "Raetic" inscriptions.



    Sorry, the Ladin language and ancient Raetian are obviously completely unrelated, even if they are in the same general area.



    G2a was present in Europe all along since the Neolithic. It was the dominant Haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers in Europe. The present-day distribution of G2a may be explained by the fact that the Neolithic farmers survived the arrival of the Indo-Europeans better in more remote hilly/mountainous areas than in lowlying ones. Having said this, it is certainly conceivable that there a double effect at work with G2a, with both G that remained distributed across Europe from Neolithic times, and G that was dispersed and re-introduced across Europe in higher concentrations by the spread of Hallstatt and La-Tene.

    Regarding R1b, L11 clearly predates the classical Celtic cultures, and I absolutely agree about it's (likely) arrival in Western Europe in the Copper Age.
    as the evidence I presented you was not accepted by you , it seems odd that you go with this etruscan theory based on a etruscan leader being called Reutus. BTW, venetic also uses etruscan inscriptions, so what do we say about this?

    As for the Ladini language, every linguidtic site and scholar say that Romanasch, Ladini and Friulian are modern evolution of the rhaetian language.

    http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=1728-16
    Indo-European, Italic, Romance, Italo-Western, Western, Gallo-Iberian, Gallo-Romance, Gallo-Rhaetian, Rhaetian

    Indo-European (439)
    Italic (42)
    Romance (41)
    Italo-Western (32)
    Western (27)
    Gallo-Iberian (26)
    Gallo-Romance (14)
    Gallo-Rhaetian (9)
    Rhaetian (3)
    Friulian [fur] (Italy)
    Ladin [lld] (Italy)
    Romansch [roh] (Switzerland)



    Since Ladini has always been in the Veneto and Friulian has been in friuli and that they sit under the Rhaetian branch, then you saying these linguistic scholars are wrong.?




    In regards to G2a , since rhaetian has it and so do the ladini , does the friulian have it. I know they where the ancient CARNI , who lived in the eastern part of italy as well as western Slovenia ( next to the taurisci

  15. #15
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    as the evidence I presented you was not accepted by you , it seems odd that you go with this etruscan theory based on a etruscan leader being called Reutus.
    I rejected it because of a statistical analysis, which seems completely pointless when you can actually show readily from Raetic inscriptions the similarities of the language with Etruscan.

    What you say about "Reutus" (or "Raetus"), I agree that it does not sound Etruscan. But consider what I said earlier: that the connection between "Raetic" inscriptions and the Raetian peoples as known to the Romans is problematic.

    BTW, venetic also uses etruscan inscriptions, so what do we say about this?
    Yes, Venetic also uses the Etruscan alphabet, but as I said so did a number of Celtic and Italic languages. This is not the point. The point is, as I said, that the languages really were similar.

    As for the Ladini language, every linguidtic site and scholar say that Romanasch, Ladini and Friulian are modern evolution of the rhaetian language.

    http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=1728-16
    Indo-European, Italic, Romance, Italo-Western, Western, Gallo-Iberian, Gallo-Romance, Gallo-Rhaetian, Rhaetian

    Indo-European (439)
    Italic (42)
    Romance (41)
    Italo-Western (32)
    Western (27)
    Gallo-Iberian (26)
    Gallo-Romance (14)
    Gallo-Rhaetian (9)
    Rhaetian (3)
    Friulian [fur] (Italy)
    Ladin [lld] (Italy)
    Romansch [roh] (Switzerland)



    Since Ladini has always been in the Veneto and Friulian has been in friuli and that they sit under the Rhaetian branch, then you saying these linguistic scholars are wrong.?
    I was never talking about the modern Rhaetian (Romance!) language. I am talking about the ancient language. Stop confusing those. As an analogy, by your logic, modern-day Portuguese is the same as Lusitanian.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    04-02-18
    Posts
    112
    Points
    1,765
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,765, Level: 11
    Level completed: 72%, Points required for next Level: 85
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: USA - Connecticut



    Charting the concentratons helps to answer and define your hypothesis. That allows the Cetic story a clearer picture. Thanks for sharing that set of clues.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    hrvclv's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-03-17
    Location
    Auvergne, France
    Posts
    410
    Points
    9,998
    Level
    30
    Points: 9,998, Level: 30
    Level completed: 8%, Points required for next Level: 552
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152-DF103
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1bm

    Ethnic group
    Arvern
    Country: France



    I don't know much about Rhaeti or their language. I'll just point out that the suffix -kwe in itself could just as well be IE. As in "Senatus Populusque..." (the senate and the people...)

    What made me wonder, on the other hand, was the fact that the high concentrations of G mentioned above, in and around the Alps, roughly match with the area where the Celtic Q/P shift occurred. As if, while gradually moving west, the Proto-Celts had mixed with G populations who just couldn't handle their labiovelar "kw" sound. The locals would then have produced what they thought they heard, keeping the plosive sound but shifting it to the lips.

    Interestingly, another post above underlines the high concentrations of G and J in Greece and neighboring areas - where IE "ekwos" turned into "hippos"... again with "p" instead of "kw".
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

Similar Threads

  1. Romans, Alpine Celts and Belgae : close cousins ?
    By Maciamo in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 10-04-19, 00:35
  2. The Celts of Iberia
    By Cambrius (The Red) in forum European Culture & History
    Replies: 1554
    Last Post: 06-10-11, 07:30
  3. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-07-11, 10:07
  4. Romans, Alpine Celts and Belgae... OFFTOPIC about J2b and Indians
    By observatrix in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 17-05-11, 22:12
  5. Do Celts still exist?
    By sparkey in forum European Culture & History
    Replies: 82
    Last Post: 15-04-11, 21:45

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •