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Thread: Lack of G2a in Basque

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Such "exact" datings are HIGHLY dubious because they mostly rely on Glottochronology, which has been largely discredited in comparative linguistics.

    They are, in particular, citing Gray and Atkinson, which, bluntly put, produced complete nonsense.

    The underlying assumption of Glottochronology is that replacments/changes in languages occur at a constant rate. However, it is historically known that languages don't do that. Therefore, this method has been decisively discredited.
    Ok. If it's true what you're saying that I'm pretty much convinced that the R1b carriers in Europe were not Indo-Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Ok. If it's true what you're saying that I'm pretty much convinced that the R1b carriers in Europe were not Indo-Europeans.
    Why is that? The spread and distribution of R1b in Western Europe very much matches the Beaker-Bell Culture of the Chalcolithic:



    The Beaker-Bell Culture is, in my opinion, the best candidate for spreading both R1b and the Indo-European languages into Western Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Why is that? The spread and distribution of R1b in Western Europe very much matches the Beaker-Bell Culture of the Chalcolithic:



    The Beaker-Bell Culture is, in my opinion, the best candidate for spreading both R1b and the Indo-European languages into Western Europe.
    Yeah, I think you're right about the Beaker-Bell Culture. Those folks were most likely R1b.

    But you have got some kind of tunnel vision. Why do you think that the EU r1b is not older than the Beaker-Bell Culture? Maybe these folks first lived somewhere in South Europe (Iberian Peninsula), invented something or got knowledge of something special which made them stronger than other ancient native Europeans. Maybe that possession of knowledge made it possible that they migrated northwards into northern part of Europe. But that EU haplogroup R1b existed in Europe millennia before them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Yeah, I think you're right about the Beaker-Bell Culture. Those folks were most likely R1b.

    But have got some kind of tunnel vision. Why do you think that the EU r1b is not older than the Beaker-Bell Culture? Maybe these folks first lived somewhere in South Europe (Iberian Peninsula), invented something or got knowledge of something special which made them stronger than other ancient native Europeans. Maybe that possession of knowledge made it possible that they migrated northwards into northern part of Europe. But EU haplogroup R1b existed in European millennia before them.
    Well, let me rephrase what I said: R1b did not enter Western Europe until after the Neolithic, as above. You are absolutely correct that it must have been somewhere before, and it's absolutely conceivable that it actually was somewhere in eastern or southern Europe before the Chalcolithic, and I also agree it must have migrated into Western Europe from somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Yeah I meant Westward not Eastward. I2a1a is the one that expanded Eastward, opposite of G2a. Basically my point was that the I2a1a peoples who contributed to the modern Basque population must have been close to an area where I2a1a started expanding from, which adopted G2a methods and then spread the opposite direction as G2a. G2a had a head start and therefore exists most places across Europe, whereas I2a1a couldn't make it.

    I wonder if this supports Paleolithic continuity of Basque language? It's feasible that they have continued I2a1a culture and language despite having such ridiculously high levels of R1b. I suppose we still don't know.
    It makes sence , so would you say that I2a1 is more likely started expanding from France ( Treilles ) or from Iberia ( higher % ) . Maybe something stoped extending of I2b1 beyond the line Germany - Switzerland -Italy , someting ( actualy someone ) that was not there during previous extension of G2a , or the moving of I2a1 hapened before arival of G2a ? It is posibility that Basque languague is descendant of " I languague" from Paleolithe , but to me more likely is conection with Iberic -Aquitanian , which come from Africa.Thanks for answering

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    @Bodin

    If I2a1a-M26 started in Iberia ( modern catalonian area ) and the Pyrennes around 6-8000BC , then went to Sardinia around 5000BC and next found among the burials in the Cave of Treilles in Aveyron, in the South of France. The Treilles culture of c. 3000 BC, and lastly around 2000BC in Venice as per the atatement from KN. then we assume that this left iberia and headed towards the balkans. What stopped them was in the statement calling it an "anti-R1a" gene.

    The "serbian" marker is I2a1b1-L69 (formerly I2a2a).

    I2a2a-M223 (formerly I2b1) is in Germany and in eastern Sweden

    I2-M438 is the "illyrian" marker on bothe sides of the adriatic sea.


    its very difficult to figures out these I -haplogroup when they keep reasigning the numbers to different areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    European R1b subclade is very old. At least it is not younger than the Neolithic age. The Caucasus range has got the highest mountain tops in Europe. Mount Elbrus is much higher than Mont Blanc. So G2a in the Caucasus had more chance to survive than in the Pyrenees. Due to the isolation.

    Maybe before R1b Europe was populated by the I and G2a folks. Maybe in Europe both haplogroups were both equally distributed, but not in Basque land. Maybe there was much more I than G2a in Basque land before R1b arrived at the first place, due to the bottleneck (founder) effect. Maybe the distribution in Basque was more like 80-20 (I-G2a).

    How old is PIE?

    European R1b is maybe 10.000 years old. So maybe it didn't belong to the PIE but to the Neolithic farmers that were not proto-Indo-European at all.
    This is interesting idea , I would say it could be posible. PIE is old betwen 6.700 and 5.700 years
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-I...opean_language
    Acording to Treilles there was 90% of G and 10% of I2a1 in France ,so it could hapen that in Basque was oposite . There is also posibility that R1b took refuge in Asia Minor during LGM , and spread from there to Europe , Armenia and Xinjang ( I read somewhere it comed there after R1a ) .Thanks for answering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Is there any evidence this is really the case? All the older varieties of R1b-M269 are either found only outside of Western Europe or are very rare. Western European R1b-M269 is in turn dominated by R1b-P310/L11, which in turn is very rare outside of Western Europe. I really fail to see how R1b-P310/L11 could be older than Neolithic.



    In my opinion, the Neolithic population of Treilles was of mixed hunter-gatherer / farmer stock.



    PIE must have been spoken in the late Neolithic / early Chalcolithic. There are common words for agriculture, cattle, horses and most importantly metals and metal-working.



    European R1b is decisively younger than 10,000 years, even if the M269 is about 10,000 years old - it wasn't in Western Europe until after 3000 BC. And as I said, none of the Neolithic farmer sites thus far turned up any evidence for R1b in Europe. I do agree however that the Neolithic Farmers were - very likely non-Indo-Europeans.
    And where were finded the oldest R1b -M269? But only few neolitic sites were tested , maybe in that time R1b was not in France and Germany but on Balkans or East Europe ?Thanks for answering

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    @Bodin

    If I2a1a-M26 started in Iberia ( modern catalonian area ) and the Pyrennes around 6-8000BC , then went to Sardinia around 5000BC and next found among the burials in the Cave of Treilles in Aveyron, in the South of France. The Treilles culture of c. 3000 BC, and lastly around 2000BC in Venice as per the atatement from KN. then we assume that this left iberia and headed towards the balkans. What stopped them was in the statement calling it an "anti-R1a" gene.

    The "serbian" marker is I2a1b1-L69 (formerly I2a2a).

    I2a2a-M223 (formerly I2b1) is in Germany and in eastern Sweden

    I2-M438 is the "illyrian" marker on bothe sides of the adriatic sea.


    its very difficult to figures out these I -haplogroup when they keep reasigning the numbers to different areas.
    Yes I2a1-M26 is from Pirinei or somewhere around them , but it couldnt reach Balkans because it didnt cross line Germany - Switzerland - Italy , and it couldnt produce I2a1b1-L69 "Serbian" ( I would call it Sarmatian ) , because they separated 12.000 years ago. I am not realy shore even I2 - M438 is Illyrian because there was lot of crosing to Italy during Ottoman conquering , mostly Croats , but Serbs to . But basicaly you are right . Thanks for answering.

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    I agree with the iberian-aquitanian connection, but it has nothing to do with Africa and, in my opinion, with the paleolithic. We have discussed it here before, but the only archaeological fact that could "match" with the spread of theses languages is the Urnenfelder Kultur, wich is considered mainly IE by most scholars.

    I'd like to add another point. When people think about basques assume they are an homogeneous group who has spoken one language in one delimited territory for thousands of years. However, some of the current (politically) basque territories seemed to be in prerroman (and early roman) era at least IE speakers, attested by the overhelming presence of toponyms and anthroponyms related to this linguistic family.

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    Is it possible that western Europeans were the first proto-Indo-European speakers and that the satem languages came after the centum languages? And that other folks in the east adopted their languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segia2 View Post
    I'd like to add another point. When people think about basques assume they are an homogeneous group who has spoken one language in one delimited territory for thousands of years. However, some of the current (politically) basque territories seemed to be in prerroman (and early roman) era at least IE speakers, attested by the overhelming presence of toponyms and anthroponyms related to this linguistic family.
    Very good point. I agree about that. The area where Basque/Aquitanian was spoken seems to have shifted across time. In Antiquity, the evidence for Basque extends northwards to approximately the river Garonne (the name "Garonne" itself is derived from the Aquitanian word for rock, compare with the modern-day Basque word "Harria"). In the south/southwest, a good chunk of area which became settled by Basques in Antiquity appears to have been inhabited by Celtic (or otherwise Indo-European, like the Lusitanians) peoples. Another bizarre issue about Basque is the surprisingly small number of Celtic loanwords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Is it possible that western Europeans were the first proto-Indo-European speakers and that the satem languages came after the centum languages? And that other folks in the east adopted their languages.
    Short answer is "no".

    Long answer is that technically, neither Centum nor Satem was first. You have to understand the nature of what this actually means:

    There are three reconstructed sounds in Proto-Indo-European ( k´, g´ and g´h), the so-called palatovelars, which were treated differently in various branches of Indo-European.

    The Centum languages (Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Italic, Tocharian, etc.) merged k´, g´ and g´h with the sounds k, g and gh.

    The Satem languages (Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranic, Armenian and some of the Paleo-Balkan languages such as Thracian) turned into fricatives (such as s, z, sh and ʒ).

    The way that sounds correspond it is pretty clear that neither is the original sound, in particular because there's other k, g, gh and s reconstructed in Proto-Indo-European that are NOT shifted according to the Centum/Satem laws.

    The Anatolian languages are a bit of an exception here, but they are generally considered the first branch to have diverged from Proto-Indo-European.

    Otherwise, with exception of Tocharian, all Centum languages are found in Europe. The question is, did these shifts occur everywhere simultaneously, or did they occur separately at different times? In any case, the general idea is that the Satem shift only occured around what appears to have been the IE core area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis
    short answer is "no".

    Long answer is that technically, neither Centum nor Satem was first. You have to understand the nature of what this actually means:

    There are three reconstructed sounds in Proto-Indo-European ( k´, g´ and g´h), the so-called palatovelars, which were treated differently in various branches of Indo-European.

    The Centum languages (Celtic, Germanic, Greek, Italic, Tocharian, etc.) merged k´, g´ and g´h with the sounds k, g and gh.

    The Satem languages (Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranic, Armenian and some of the Paleo-Balkan languages such as Thracian) turned into fricatives (such as s, z, sh and ʒ).

    The way that sounds correspond it is pretty clear that neither is the original sound, in particular because there's other k, g, gh and s reconstructed in Proto-Indo-European that are NOT shifted according to the Centum/Satem laws.

    The Anatolian languages are a bit of an exception here, but they are generally considered the first branch to have diverged from Proto-Indo-European.

    Otherwise, with exception of Tocharian, all Centum languages are found in Europe. The question is, did these shifts occur everywhere simultaneously, or did they occur separately at different times? In any case, the general idea is that the Satem shift only occured around what appears to have been the IE core area.
    Some folks speak about the 'Satemization' of Centum languages. According to them the 'Satemization' of West European languages and Tocharian didn't occur due to largely failing to reach the Atlanto European or Tocharian peripheries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Some folks speak about the 'Satemization' of Centum languages. According to them the 'Satemization' of West European languages and Tocharian didn't occur due to largely failing to reach the Atlanto European or Tocharian peripheries.
    This is very broadly what I said in the last passage of my previous post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segia2 View Post
    I agree with the iberian-aquitanian connection, but it has nothing to do with Africa and, in my opinion, with the paleolithic. We have discussed it here before, but the only archaeological fact that could "match" with the spread of theses languages is the Urnenfelder Kultur, wich is considered mainly IE by most scholars.

    I'd like to add another point. When people think about basques assume they are an homogeneous group who has spoken one language in one delimited territory for thousands of years. However, some of the current (politically) basque territories seemed to be in prerroman (and early roman) era at least IE speakers, attested by the overhelming presence of toponyms and anthroponyms related to this linguistic family.
    I read somewhere Diodorus or Paussania ( Description of Hellas ) that Iberians come from North Africa , i couldnt remember where , and I cant find it ( realy cant read both books again , maybe some time later) , do someone know ?If do please post .
    So are you claiming that Basque is not African or Paleolitic but IE languague from Urnfild ? Please explain I never heard of such view .
    Do you speack about Gaskogne , because it was settled by Basques in fairly recent times - betwen VI and XIV century .Thanks for answering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I read somewhere Diodorus or Paussania ( Description of Hellas ) that Iberians come from North Africa , i couldnt remember where , and I cant find it ( realy cant read both books again , maybe some time later) , do someone know ?If do please post .
    Let me say this, I linguistically absolutely disagree with that North African hypothesis on Iberian. I'm not sure if Basque and Iberian really were related, but there are some similarities, and there definitely were Basque/Aquitanian borrowings into Iberian, or vice versa.

    Another issue is: North Africa was populated by Berber peoples, and Iberian (just like Basque) is *very* different from Berber. The Berber languages are part of the Afro-Asiatic family (together with Egyptian, the Semitic languages and a couple of others), which is - from what we can tell, the oldest reliably tracable language family we know.

    So are you claiming that Basque is not African or Paleolitic but IE languague from Urnfild ? Please explain I never heard of such view .
    I think he suggests that the Basques might be immigrants themselves. Basque, without a doubt, is a non-Indo-European language.

    Do you speack about Gaskogne , because it was settled by Basques in fairly recent times - betwen VI and XIV century .Thanks for answering
    I think he is refering to the west of modern-day Basque country.

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    There is also similarity of Iberian artefacts from Chalcolithe with Neolithic artefacts from Morocco - Hogans theory , and posible conection Iberian- Basque languague. Aldo Iberians use to burn their deads like Urnfild ( proto-Celtic ? ) , and had some similarities with cultures east from them in Meditteranea. Maybe Iberians were E1b1b which make 85% of Morocco ?
    Thanks for answering

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    The North African influence in the Iberian Peninsula is not so huge according to admixture analysis. It's possible that thousands of years ago the first inhabitants arrived from North Africa, but they were quickly replaced/absorbed by the Celts and Proto-Celts, and surely before by I2a1a peoples (call it as you want). Then, this is not a serious possibility if we take present Iberians as reference...nothing to do with North Africans.

    The Basque language will remain in mistery, it's clearly extremely ancient. Difficult to find a connection with North Africa since they are the most European population nowadays (genetically speaking). There's no language having substantial similarities with Basque, and if it hasn't been yet found, I think it's impossible. Basques probably speak the language of one of the first migrants who settled in Europe (at least, the only ones whose culture survived). We should go too deep in time to find the original people...very difficult.

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    Regarding North Africa: there is also the question when the Proto-Berbers did arrive in that ara. Clearly they must have been predominantly carriers of E1b1b (since it's very likely the Haplogroup linked with Afro-Asiatic). As I mentioned, Afro-Asiatic is the oldest language family from what we can tell, and (apart from Sumerian, which is an isolated language) it is also bears the oldest attested languages (Old Egyptian and Akkadian). Hence, Proto-Berbers must have arrived very early, which makes the claim of a connection between Basque and/or Iberian and any pre-Berber languages extremely dubious and difficult.

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    As Taranis wrote, I wanted to say that aquitanian and iberian languages -clearly non IE- could arrive with the Urnenfelder Kultur, although many scholars associate this culture exclusively to IE peoples. The question is, if basques/iberians came from Europe, where is the linguistic evidence outside France/Spain? Hard work for linguists, but -who knows- maybe these rivers -Ebro, Ibar, Ybbs, Ebrach...- are related to basque Ibai (river)..

    About basque and iberian -I remember I posted it in other thread-, some numbers:

    Ibérico Significado ibérico Protovasco Vasco actual y significado erder / erdi- "mitad / medio"
    erdi "mitad / medio" ban " un / uno" *badV / *bade? bat "un / uno" bi / bin un numeral biga bi (antiguo biga) "dos" irur un numeral hirur hiru(r) "tres" laur un numeral laur lau(r) cuatro" borste / bors un numeral bortz / *bortzV? bost (antiguo bortz) "cinco" śei un numeral
    sei "seis" sisbi un numeral?
    zazpi "siete" sorse un numeral?
    zortzi "ocho" abaŕ / baŕ un numeral *[h]anbar ? hamar "diez" oŕkei un numeral
    hogei "veinte"

    And seriously, I can accept a language can borrow one or two numbers, but not the whole serie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    The North African influence in the Iberian Peninsula is not so huge according to admixture analysis. It's possible that thousands of years ago the first inhabitants arrived from North Africa, but they were quickly replaced/absorbed by the Celts and Proto-Celts, and surely before by I2a1a peoples (call it as you want). Then, this is not a serious possibility if we take present Iberians as reference...nothing to do with North Africans.

    The Basque language will remain in mistery, it's clearly extremely ancient. Difficult to find a connection with North Africa since they are the most European population nowadays (genetically speaking). There's no language having substantial similarities with Basque, and if it hasn't been yet found, I think it's impossible. Basques probably speak the language of one of the first migrants who settled in Europe (at least, the only ones whose culture survived). We should go too deep in time to find the original people...very difficult.
    No I am not speacking about present Iberians ( supose you think on Spain and Portugal) , I speacked about ancient Iberians, ofcours all of these is speculations and nothing is certain, one new finding can change it all.
    What do you mean most European , are you suporting theory about Paleolithe origin of R1b ( in Europe ) , to me most reliablle is theory that it comed during Neolithe somewhere in South and Central Europe from West Asia , and then pushed west by newcoming R1a and some more R1b - Indoeuropean .
    Thanks for answering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Regarding North Africa: there is also the question when the Proto-Berbers did arrive in that ara. Clearly they must have been predominantly carriers of E1b1b (since it's very likely the Haplogroup linked with Afro-Asiatic). As I mentioned, Afro-Asiatic is the oldest language family from what we can tell, and (apart from Sumerian, which is an isolated language) it is also bears the oldest attested languages (Old Egyptian and Akkadian). Hence, Proto-Berbers must have arrived very early, which makes the claim of a connection between Basque and/or Iberian and any pre-Berber languages extremely dubious and difficult.
    Yes it do but Morrocans do not speack Berber but Arabic , so before Arabs they could speack different languague , which kind of languague do you think Basque was , and who brought it ?If its not IE and not North Afric , maybe I2a1-Paleolithic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segia2 View Post
    As Taranis wrote, I wanted to say that aquitanian and iberian languages -clearly non IE- could arrive with the Urnenfelder Kultur, although many scholars associate this culture exclusively to IE peoples. The question is, if basques/iberians came from Europe, where is the linguistic evidence outside France/Spain? Hard work for linguists, but -who knows- maybe these rivers -Ebro, Ibar, Ybbs, Ebrach...- are related to basque Ibai (river)..

    About basque and iberian -I remember I posted it in other thread-, some numbers:

    Ibérico Significado ibérico Protovasco Vasco actual y significado erder / erdi- "mitad / medio"
    erdi "mitad / medio" ban " un / uno" *badV / *bade? bat "un / uno" bi / bin un numeral biga bi (antiguo biga) "dos" irur un numeral hirur hiru(r) "tres" laur un numeral laur lau(r) cuatro" borste / bors un numeral bortz / *bortzV? bost (antiguo bortz) "cinco" śei un numeral
    sei "seis" sisbi un numeral?
    zazpi "siete" sorse un numeral?
    zortzi "ocho" abaŕ / baŕ un numeral *[h]anbar ? hamar "diez" oŕkei un numeral
    hogei "veinte"

    And seriously, I can accept a language can borrow one or two numbers, but not the whole serie.
    Let me say this: the case of the similarity between Basque and Iberian numerals makes a very strong argument in favour. Having said this, there is the precedent of the Turkic languages which were highly adaptive in terms of numerals. But, it's indeed very unlikely to replace a complete number system. In contrast to that, the Indo-European languages are extremely conservative in respect for numerals.

    Regarding Urnfield, I have to disagree. You must not expect that archaeological cultures reflecting linguistic homogenity. Even if, you have to consider the vast extend of Urnfield (Poland, Italy) a vast area where there is no evidence for Basque / Iberian toponyms, and which I find far more plausible to assume that it was Indo-European already in the Brone Age. Basque toponyms, as mentioned, extend towards the north only approximately to the Garrone. In contrast, Iberian toponyms are found towards all the way down the Iberian penninsula into Andalusia, as far west as the Guadalquivir river.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Yes it do but Morrocans do not speack Berber but Arabic , so before Arabs they could speack different languague , which kind of languague do you think Basque was , and who brought it ?If its not IE and not North Afric , maybe I2a1-Paleolithic?
    Sorry, Moroccans very much speak also Berber languages today. There is several million people in Morocco who speak the Central Atlas Berber:



    There are also other Berber languages spoken in Algeria, Tunisia and Western Libya. It is known that the Berbers inhabited these areas already in Antiquity, and Berber kingdoms in what today is Morocco were clients of the Carthagininians first, and then of the Roman Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segia2 View Post
    As Taranis wrote, I wanted to say that aquitanian and iberian languages -clearly non IE- could arrive with the Urnenfelder Kultur, although many scholars associate this culture exclusively to IE peoples. The question is, if basques/iberians came from Europe, where is the linguistic evidence outside France/Spain? Hard work for linguists, but -who knows- maybe these rivers -Ebro, Ibar, Ybbs, Ebrach...- are related to basque Ibai (river)..

    About basque and iberian -I remember I posted it in other thread-, some numbers:

    Ibérico Significado ibérico Protovasco Vasco actual y significado erder / erdi- "mitad / medio"
    erdi "mitad / medio" ban " un / uno" *badV / *bade? bat "un / uno" bi / bin un numeral biga bi (antiguo biga) "dos" irur un numeral hirur hiru(r) "tres" laur un numeral laur lau(r) cuatro" borste / bors un numeral bortz / *bortzV? bost (antiguo bortz) "cinco" śei un numeral
    sei "seis" sisbi un numeral?
    zazpi "siete" sorse un numeral?
    zortzi "ocho" abaŕ / baŕ un numeral *[h]anbar ? hamar "diez" oŕkei un numeral
    hogei "veinte"

    And seriously, I can accept a language can borrow one or two numbers, but not the whole serie.
    So you think that Urnfield people use to speack few diferent languagues ( not even same familly of languagues) , interesting oppinion . Maybe some languague diference betwen rulling nation and conquered one ?
    I believe that it is posible to borow all numbers , linguistics when they clasiffy languagues in famillies look only basic words ( 50-100) - familly members , basic food , house parts ,... I believe I already wrote about Hungarian languague , 95% of it words are IE , but basic words are Uralic , and it is classified like Uralic .So Iberico and Protovasco can be non IE , but yet use IE numbers .Thanks for answering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Let me say this: the case of the similarity between Basque and Iberian numerals makes a very strong argument in favour. Having said this, there is the precedent of the Turkic languages which were highly adaptive in terms of numerals. But, it's indeed very unlikely to replace a complete number system. In contrast to that, the Indo-European languages are extremely conservative in respect for numerals.

    Regarding Urnfield, I have to disagree. You must not expect that archaeological cultures reflecting linguistic homogenity. Even if, you have to consider the vast extend of Urnfield (Poland, Italy) a vast area where there is no evidence for Basque / Iberian toponyms, and which I find far more plausible to assume that it was Indo-European already in the Brone Age. Basque toponyms, as mentioned, extend towards the north only approximately to the Garrone. In contrast, Iberian toponyms are found towards all the way down the Iberian penninsula into Andalusia, as far west as the Guadalquivir river.



    Sorry, Moroccans very much speak also Berber languages today. There is several million people in Morocco who speak the Central Atlas Berber:



    There are also other Berber languages spoken in Algeria, Tunisia and Western Libya. It is known that the Berbers inhabited these areas already in Antiquity, and Berber kingdoms in what today is Morocco were clients of the Carthagininians first, and then of the Roman Empire.
    No Berbers are separate nation of desert nomads that lives in Morocco , Algeria and Tunis , and in other parts of Sahara , Morrocans do not speack Berber but Arabic . Thanks for answering

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