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Thread: Lack of G2a in Basque

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    Bodin, I think that an archaeological culture can be associated with different ethno-linguistic groups (diffusion, asimilation..) UFK is possibly IE, but not necessary and exclusively IE (I agree with you, Taranis, perhaps I explained myself wrongly)

    BTW, sorry for my messy previous post, but basque and iberian numerals aren't IE. I wrote them to explain the similarity between both languages (there are more similar characteristics, as phonetic inventary, agglutinating system, shared derivational sufixes -en, -sken, ancient anthroponyms...) The problem lies on propperly comparing two languages, one living and the other dead more than fifteen centuries ago (corpus language), fragmentary and with a lack of "Rossetta stones" that could give light to the whole business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segia2 View Post
    Bodin, I think that an archaeological culture can be associated with different ethno-linguistic groups (diffusion, asimilation..) UFK is possibly IE, but not necessary and exclusively IE (I agree with you, Taranis, perhaps I explained myself wrongly)
    Alright, I now understand. :)

    BTW, sorry for my messy previous post, but basque and iberian numerals aren't IE. I wrote them to explain the similarity between both languages (there are more similar characteristics, as phonetic inventary, agglutinating system, shared derivational sufixes -en, -sken, ancient anthroponyms...) The problem lies on propperly comparing two languages, one living and the other dead more than fifteen centuries ago (corpus language), fragmentary and with a lack of "Rossetta stones" that could give light to the whole business.
    I absolutely agree on the features of the Iberian language. Regarding comparison, what is more useful is what scarce evidence we do have (place names, personal names) of Aquitanian, and in turn compare it with reconstructed Proto-Basque (internal reconstruction based on how non-Basque loanwords are treated). Of course the term "Proto-Basque" is a bit of a misnomer because it technically refers to the Basque language around the time the Basques were subjugated by the Roman Empire, but on the upside Proto-Basque is very similar to what little we known about Aquitanian, therefore, in my opinion Aquitanian is probably the same as Proto-Basque.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segia2 View Post
    Bodin, I think that an archaeological culture can be associated with different ethno-linguistic groups (diffusion, asimilation..) UFK is possibly IE, but not necessary and exclusively IE (I agree with you, Taranis, perhaps I explained myself wrongly)

    BTW, sorry for my messy previous post, but basque and iberian numerals aren't IE. I wrote them to explain the similarity between both languages (there are more similar characteristics, as phonetic inventary, agglutinating system, shared derivational sufixes -en, -sken, ancient anthroponyms...) The problem lies on propperly comparing two languages, one living and the other dead more than fifteen centuries ago (corpus language), fragmentary and with a lack of "Rossetta stones" that could give light to the whole business.
    Yes it can but if they both were R1b ( Basque and Celts ) why did they speack diferent languagues? And central Europe has some G( 2-3%) , why there is no in Basque?
    Thanks for answering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    No Berbers are separate nation of desert nomads that lives in Morocco , Algeria and Tunis , and in other parts of Sahara , Morrocans do not speack Berber but Arabic . Thanks for answering
    I'm sorry, Berber languages are very well spoken in Morocco today. There's no point in denying that.



    Besides, it's equally clear that the Berber languages were widely spoken in much of North Africa in Antiquity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Yes it can but if they both were R1b ( Basque and Celts ) why did they speack diferent languagues? And central Europe has some G( 2-3%) , why there is no in Basque?
    Thanks for answering
    Very simple: people can swap their languages, but they canot swap their Haplogroups.

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    Bodin, when I said they are the most European I meant today. According to admixture analysis, as population, they are the less mixed of the entire Europe.

    It's a good point the last one. Celts and Basques were both R1b, but I think we must find the answer, perhaps, in the type of R1b. Probably between the Basques there is an especific subclade at higher frequencies than in any other place. At least, they have the highest R1b, there would be nothing rare on this.

    By the way, Here is the R1b of a distant cousin of mine at 23andme (he seems to be the most Basque person I found there till the moment): R1b1b2a1a2b

    Can this subclade and a few others have higher presence between the Basques?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Bodin, when I said they are the most European I meant today. According to admixture analysis, as population, they are the less mixed of the entire Europe.

    It's a good point the last one. Celts and Basques were both R1b, but I think we must find the answer, perhaps, in the type of R1b. Probably between the Basques there is an especific subclade at higher frequencies than in any other place. At least, they have the highest R1b, there would be nothing rare on this.

    By the way, Here is the R1b of a distant cousin of mine at 23andme (he seems to be the most Basque person I found there till the moment): R1b1b2a1a2b

    Can this subclade and a few others have higher presence between the Basques?
    Well, one issue that is very clear is that there's quite a difference between various subclades of R1b. Both Basque and Celtic* subclades of R1b are part of R1b-L11/P310, but things end there. The question is, why did R1b-L11/P310 began to split up? From what I have seen, typically Celtic subclades of R1b appear to be near absent amongst the Basques.

    *by "Celtic" subclades I mean L21 (found mainly on the British Isles and in the Atlantic facade) and U152 (centered around the Alpine region), however it's clear that U152 isn't exlcusively Celtic because there's also an Italic component to it.

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    Ok Taranis, your answer is enough. We can asume easily that the ancient R1b of the Celts and the Basques were associated to different peoples. That would explain the first question.

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    I don't agree at all. The (proto)-Celtic branch is tought to be the R-S116, which is where Basques and all spaniards belong too. In today's basque country there is Celtic or at least Indo-european toponymia. In historic times there were celts living there. As for the G2a, is curious that basques autosomally lack the West-Asian component (which peaks in Georgians) and as well the G2a peaks in Georgians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    I don't agree at all. The (proto)-Celtic branch is tought to be the R-S116, which is where Basques and all spaniards belong too. In today's basque country there is Celtic or at least Indo-european toponymia. In historic times there were celts living there. As for the G2a, is curious that basques autosomally lack the West-Asian component (which peaks in Georgians) and as well the G2a peaks in Georgians.
    Yes and no. It still appears to me that the typically "Celtic" (at least, those that are usually considered that, as mentioned, L21 and U152) subclades of S116 are very rare in the Basque Country and in Iberia as a whole. It would be very nice/interesting to see a better resultion of the R1b subclades on the Iberian penninsula.

    In any case it's clear that S116 isn't exclusively (Proto-)Celtic. This gets very clear if you take a look at the high concentrations of R1b-U152 in Italy, which cannot be exclusively explained by the historic Celtic immigration into northern Italy.

    Otherwise, I agree that the lack of the West Asian component in Basque Autosomal DNA is very interesting.

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    According to K=12 v3, Southwest Asian is even more absent between them.

    Some Iberians get high North Atlantic scores at Eurogenes when the cluster is included, and something similar would happen with Basques. Note that ancient subclades tell us nothing about the full admixture. Surely, Basques were mixed in the past with other peoples, althought they maintained their original culture pretty well.

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    In my opinion, Haplogroup I2a1 is most likely to be the "original" Y-Haplogroup associated with the Basques. I think so for several reasons: first off, we know that I2a1 was present in western Europe in the Neolithic (in Treilles), alongside G2a. In my opinion, the fact that Treilles was mixed G2a and I2a1 does by no means contradict the fact that modern-day Basques have virtually no G2a.

    The other issue is that apart from Sardinia, the Basque country (and moreso, Aragon) has one of the highest concentrations of I2a1.

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    This makes sense to me. At least, I2a1 was one of the first, because we can't exclude the posibility of another one, as for example some subclades of R1b as I said, that could be more present between the Basques than in other populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    This makes sense to me. At least, I2a1 was one of the first, because we can't exclude the posibility of another one, as for example some subclades of R1b as I said, that could be more present between the Basques than in other populations.
    Haplogroup I as a whole is definitely old (despite the apparent bottleneck effect), and in my opinion it's the best candidate for Paleolithic Y-Haplogroups in Europe. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that. We merely know that it is at least Neolithic in age.

    Something else I wanted to bring up is: just because I2a1 and G2a are present in Treilles doesn't mean the two Haplogroups are associated with each other. If you look at the distribution of I2a1 and G2a today it's very clear that they weren't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    I don't agree at all. The (proto)-Celtic branch is tought to be the R-S116, which is where Basques and all spaniards belong too. In today's basque country there is Celtic or at least Indo-european toponymia. In historic times there were celts living there. As for the G2a, is curious that basques autosomally lack the West-Asian component (which peaks in Georgians) and as well the G2a peaks in Georgians.
    But there isn't good evidence that Basques are the same people as those who produced Celtic toponymia, is there? I recall reading that modern Basques are most likely primarily descended from people who lived in Aquitania in Classical times. Do you think they're more native to the Basque Country?

    Besides, R1b-S116 includes populations other than Basques that were non-IE, like the Iberians of the Classical Age, unless you're suggesting that they were entirely R1b-S116-. So I don't think it would be inconsistent with the data to suppose that R1b-S116 peoples were descended from small non-IE populations who largely adopted IE languages, but not entirely. (Although I'm not sure I'm going to argue that it's the most likely scenario, just that it is a possible scenario).

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Haplogroup I as a whole is definitely old (despite the apparent bottleneck effect), and in my opinion it's the best candidate for Paleolithic Y-Haplogroups in Europe. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that. We merely know that it is at least Neolithic in age.
    Haplogroup I dated conventionally is about 22,000 years old... very Paleolithic. What are you suggesting? A serious dating error? Multiple migrations and subsequent extinction in Asia? (Keep in mind that I2 is itself dated to about 21,000 years ago and branches into 11+ extant subclades, all of which have a center of diversity in Europe, by the beginning of the Neolithic).

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Something else I wanted to bring up is: just because I2a1 and G2a are present in Treilles doesn't mean the two Haplogroups are associated with each other. If you look at the distribution of I2a1 and G2a today it's very clear that they weren't.
    But there are some interesting patterns they share, like how Sardinia has the largest frequency of both in Europe. I2a1a is the Haplogroup I subclade that appears to have spread the most during the Neolithic of the Haplogroup I subclades, and G2a seems to be the primary haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers, at least that we've found so far. So I do see some correlation, with the main reason they don't correlate strictly being that they started spreading from opposite sides of Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Haplogroup I dated conventionally is about 22,000 years old... very Paleolithic. What are you suggesting? A serious dating error? Multiple migrations and subsequent extinction in Asia? (Keep in mind that I2 is itself dated to about 21,000 years ago and branches into 11+ extant subclades, all of which have a center of diversity in Europe, by the beginning of the Neolithic).
    I was suggesting nothing, I just may have worded it somewhat unfortunately. The statement that I2a1 is known to have been in "in Europe at least since the Neolithic" does not rule out Paleolithic. From that perpective, Haplogroup I remains the most likely candidate for being Paleolithic. I agree that I also haven't seen any convincing model yet of how Haplogroup I could have entered at a later day, anyways, and also from where. Paleolithic is indeed the most likely explanation.

    But there are some interesting patterns they share, like how Sardinia has the largest frequency of both in Europe. I2a1a is the Haplogroup I subclade that appears to have spread the most during the Neolithic of the Haplogroup I subclades, and G2a seems to be the primary haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers, at least that we've found so far. So I do see some correlation, with the main reason they don't correlate strictly being that they started spreading from opposite sides of Europe.
    Yeah, I see your point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Yes and no. It still appears to me that the typically "Celtic" (at least, those that are usually considered that, as mentioned, L21 and U152) subclades of S116 are very rare in the Basque Country and in Iberia as a whole.
    Well, that's simply not true. L21 is not rare at all in Iberia. But I would want you to read this quote on R-S116 :

    R-S116 shows maximum Y-STR diversity in France and Germany but maximum frequency in Iberia and the British Isles. In the latter region it is represented mainly by R-M529 with the R-M222 subclade being particularly prominent in Ireland but also North England. It would be interesting to see data for Scotland, and I do not doubt that R-M222 would be prominent there as well. R-S116 also shows signs of being a Celtic, or Celtiberian-related lineage.

    European Journal of Human Genetics doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.146

    A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

    Natalie M Myres et al.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Yes and no. It still appears to me that the typically "Celtic" (at least, those that are usually considered that, as mentioned, L21 and U152) subclades of S116 are very rare in the Basque Country and in Iberia as a whole.
    Well, that's simply not true. L21 is not rare at all in Iberia. But I would want you to read this quote on R-S116 :

    R-S116 shows maximum Y-STR diversity in France and Germany but maximum frequency in Iberia and the British Isles. In the latter region it is represented mainly by R-M529 with the R-M222 subclade being particularly prominent in Ireland but also North England. It would be interesting to see data for Scotland, and I do not doubt that R-M222 would be prominent there as well. R-S116 also shows signs of being a Celtic, or Celtiberian-related lineage.

    European Journal of Human Genetics doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.146

    A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

    Natalie M Myres et al.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Yes and no. It still appears to me that the typically "Celtic" (at least, those that are usually considered that, as mentioned, L21 and U152) subclades of S116 are very rare in the Basque Country and in Iberia as a whole.
    Well, that's simply not true. L21 is not rare at all in Iberia. But I would want you to read this quote on R-S116 :

    R-S116 shows maximum Y-STR diversity in France and Germany but maximum frequency in Iberia and the British Isles. In the latter region it is represented mainly by R-M529 with the R-M222 subclade being particularly prominent in Ireland but also North England. It would be interesting to see data for Scotland, and I do not doubt that R-M222 would be prominent there as well. R-S116 also shows signs of being a Celtic, or Celtiberian-related lineage.

    European Journal of Human Genetics doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2010.146

    A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

    Natalie M Myres et al.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Well, that's simply not true. L21 is not rare at all in Iberia. But I would want you to read this quote on R-S116 :
    Explain to me why all studies I have seen thus far show common L21 only in the British Isles, plus some marginal evidence in northwestern France?

    Even the Myres paper you cited says "In the latter region (ie Britain) it is represented mainly by R-M529 with the R-M222 subclade being particularly prominent in Ireland but also North England."

    L21 appears to be quite rare in Iberia, just like for instance U152.

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    I thought the majority of the Basques R1b was the R1b1b2 - M153 which although greater in the French basques was still the most dominanat of the R1b for basques.

    Besides, the french basques which where related to the gascons in both genes and language seems correct.
    The I - haplogroup seems to be more "hidden" in the pyrennes and so more original for the basques .

    The MtDna found for both Spanish and french Basques as a Neolithic marker was J1c1 and J2a

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Well, that's simply not true. L21 is not rare at all in Iberia. But I would want you to read this quote on R-S116 :
    Sorry but L21 is almost absent in Iberia


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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Sorry but L21 is almost absent in Iberia
    Well, where is this map from ? Anyways, it is obviously almost absent, since it has not been tested on academic studies. But there is a project going on (you can see it in the Y-DNA section of this forum) with quite an amount of Iberians with L-21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm2 View Post
    Well, where is this map from ? Anyways, it is obviously almost absent, since it has not been tested on academic studies. But there is a project going on (you can see it in the Y-DNA section of this forum) with quite an amount of Iberians with L-21.
    You might also want to check this out:

    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.o....1044.full.pdf

    Also virtually no L21 on the Iberian penninsula, but, interestingly U152 which I had not seen before to this extend. It's also very clear that they have tested L21 in Iberian in their studies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm2 View Post
    Well, where is this map from ? Anyways, it is obviously almost absent, since it has not been tested on academic studies. But there is a project going on (you can see it in the Y-DNA section of this forum) with quite an amount of Iberians with L-21.
    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.o....1044.full.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Also virtually no L21 on the Iberian penninsula, but, interestingly U152 which I had not seen before to this extend.
    Indeed, South West Portugal is also interesting

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