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Thread: Lack of G2a in Basque

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    Indeed, South West Portugal is also interesting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You might also want to check this out:

    Also virtually no L21 on the Iberian penninsula, but, interestingly U152 which I had not seen before to this extend. It's also very clear that they have tested L21 in Iberian in their studies.
    At the Myres et al. 2010 study there is 2.5% in Spain and 3% in Portugal. It's clearly not a celtic marker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm2 View Post
    At the Myres et al. 2010 study there is 2.5% in Spain and 3% in Portugal. It's clearly not a celtic marker.
    What makes you think U152 isn't Celtic at all? Granted, it can't beexclusively Celtic, but it very much matches the spread of the Hallstatt and La-Tene Cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    What makes you think U152 isn't Celtic at all? Granted, it can't beexclusively Celtic, but it very much matches the spread of the Hallstatt and La-Tene Cultures.
    I was talking of L-21. Anyways, these are mini-subclades. What matches the spread of Celts is R-S116, Maciamo even has a map about it :

    h t t p://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/r1b.png/

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    Surprisingly the study found more R1b S116 in Provence and Catalonia than in the Basque country

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    I don't agree at all. The (proto)-Celtic branch is tought to be the R-S116, which is where Basques and all spaniards belong too.
    We need more study on Z196 and its subclade for a better understanding of Iberian R1b and its relations to other Western european people

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I'm sorry, Berber languages are very well spoken in Morocco today. There's no point in denying that.



    Besides, it's equally clear that the Berber languages were widely spoken in much of North Africa in Antiquity.



    Very simple: people can swap their languages, but they canot swap their Haplogroups.
    I didnt try to denie that Berber is spocken in Morroco today , but it is not spocken by Moroccans , they speack Arabic ( atleast they were few weaks ago when I was there -joke).It is almoust certain that Berber was spocken during antiquity in North Africa , but we cant claim it was spocken by Moroccans , we dont know which languague they spocked.
    Yes they can swap languagues but whose languague did Basque take ? Or you believe that Basque is ancient Celtic and other Celts took IE ?
    Thanks for answering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Bodin, when I said they are the most European I meant today. According to admixture analysis, as population, they are the less mixed of the entire Europe.

    It's a good point the last one. Celts and Basques were both R1b, but I think we must find the answer, perhaps, in the type of R1b. Probably between the Basques there is an especific subclade at higher frequencies than in any other place. At least, they have the highest R1b, there would be nothing rare on this.

    By the way, Here is the R1b of a distant cousin of mine at 23andme (he seems to be the most Basque person I found there till the moment): R1b1b2a1a2b

    Can this subclade and a few others have higher presence between the Basques?
    O , you meant autosomal , that is a fact.
    I believe Basque haplotype is R1b1a2a1a1b2( R-M135) , yes its quite possible.
    Your cousin is Atlantic modal haplotype -R1b1b2 ( HT 15) and it is most comon in Europe of all R1b , its widely spreaded in Spain , Portugal ,Wales , Ireland , Scotland , and Ireland . So answer to your question is yes it can . Now I remembered one thing that I asked my self , if all R1b comed during IE setling when did it reached British islands ? It is obviosly that R1b tribes from Spain spreaded toward them .
    Thanks for answer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I didnt try to denie that Berber is spocken in Morroco today , but it is not spocken by Moroccans , they speack Arabic ( atleast they were few weaks ago when I was there -joke).It is almoust certain that Berber was spocken during antiquity in North Africa , but we cant claim it was spocken by Moroccans , we dont know which languague they spocked.
    What?! First off, Berber languages are clearly spoken by Moroccans, because regardless of wether they speak Berber or Arabic they are Moroccan citizens. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue there. That there were other native languages in Antiquity spoken on the area of-modern day Morocco besides Berber languages? If that it is what you're trying to argue, then you are very wrong because there is absolutely no evidence for that.

    It is clear that Berber languages were spoken in Antiquity across a wide area from modern-day Morocco to Libya. It is also clear that the Berber language family must be rather old, because we know from the attestation of other Afro-Asiatic language families (ie, Egyptian and Semitic, the latter via Akkadian) that the Afro-Asiatic languages were already split up by 3rd millennium BC.

    Yes they can swap languagues but whose languague did Basque take ? Or you believe that Basque is ancient Celtic and other Celts took IE ?
    Thanks for answering
    Sorry, what are you trying to argue there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    What?! First off, Berber languages are clearly spoken by Moroccans, because regardless of wether they speak Berber or Arabic they are Moroccan citizens. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue there. That there were other native languages in Antiquity spoken on the area of-modern day Morocco besides Berber languages? If that it is what you're trying to argue, then you are very wrong because there is absolutely no evidence for that.

    It is clear that Berber languages were spoken in Antiquity across a wide area from modern-day Morocco to Libya. It is also clear that the Berber language family must be rather old, because we know from the attestation of other Afro-Asiatic language families (ie, Egyptian and Semitic, the latter via Akkadian) that the Afro-Asiatic languages were already split up by 3rd millennium BC.



    Sorry, what are you trying to argue there?
    Yes they are Morrocan citizens , so the Basque are Spanish citizens but they are not Spaniards , so the Sorabi are German citizens but they are not Germans , there is some Turks , Albanians , Serbs , Croats ,Roma... who are German citizens , but are they Germans ?I am German citizen( born in Meissen) , but I am not German.
    I trying to say it is posibility that Berbers lived in Sahara desert next to Moroccans , but they didnt have to speack same languague , ofcourse there is no proof Moroccan speacked diferent languague , but there is no proof they ever speacked Berber.
    About other question : There was claim that Basque and Celts are both from Urnfield culture , and they both are R1b , and speack languagues that are not even in same family , so I was curios why that hapened . Logicaly if they both comed with IE speackers than Basque took languague from some other group , if they comed before IE speackers than Celts spoke Basque and then took IE languague from newcoming IE speackers.
    Thanks for answering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I trying to say it is posibility that Berbers lived in Sahara desert next to Moroccans , but they didnt have to speack same languague , ofcourse there is no proof Moroccan speacked diferent languague , but there is no proof they ever speacked Berber.
    Sorry, no, there is no such possibility. You are making a totall wrong assumption there that somehow "Moroccans" existed in Antiquity in North Africa, which suggests that you are absolutely ignorant of the history of Morocco. This is approximately the same as assuming that "English" existed in Antiquity in Britain.

    The country name "Morocco" derives from the city of Marrakech, which didn't exist in that form until the Medieval Ages. I heavily recommend you to read up on the history of Morocco before you make any other such claims.

    As for there being no proof that they spoke Berber in Antiquity, I very much disagree. In Greek and Roman sources there very much are recorded Berber town names and personal names.

    About other question : There was claim that Basque and Celts are both from Urnfield culture , and they both are R1b , and speack languagues that are not even in same family , so I was curios why that hapened . Logicaly if they both comed with IE speackers than Basque took languague from some other group , if they comed before IE speackers than Celts spoke Basque and then took IE languague from newcoming IE speackers.
    Thanks for answering
    Well, there is no easy answer here. The problem is this: we have very little evidence that Basque might have been spoken outside the area it was spoken in in Antiquity. If Basque was spoken across a larger area in previous times, we would find Basque borrowings not only into Celtic but also Italic and Germanic, which isn't the case. So, it is a mystery here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry, no, there is no such possibility. You are making a totall wrong assumption there that somehow "Moroccans" existed in Antiquity in North Africa, which suggests that you are absolutely ignorant of the history of Morocco. This is approximately the same as assuming that "English" existed in Antiquity in Britain.

    The country name "Morocco" derives from the city of Marrakech, which didn't exist in that form until the Medieval Ages. I heavily recommend you to read up on the history of Morocco before you make any other such claims.

    As for there being no proof that they spoke Berber in Antiquity, I very much disagree. In Greek and Roman sources there very much are recorded Berber town names and personal names.



    Well, there is no easy answer here. The problem is this: we have very little evidence that Basque might have been spoken outside the area it was spoken in in Antiquity. If Basque was spoken across a larger area in previous times, we would find Basque borrowings not only into Celtic but also Italic and Germanic, which isn't the case. So, it is a mystery here.
    And Morocco ( and Marrakech ) has nothing to do with Moors , who are recorded in antiquiti like diferent nation than Berbers ? I wouldnt say so .There was land Mauretania in place of Morroco before Romans and province with same name in empire. Aldo it is truth that first state in Midle Ages in Morroco was formed by Berbers . Ask any Morrocan ( nation not citizenship ) is he Berber , and ask any Berber is he Morrocan. What is also very interesting is shared mthDNA betwen Morrocans and Saami nation ( Laponia , Sweden). That seems to coincide with shared Paleolithical archeological findings of Europe and Morroco . After Morroco was also adopted Baker-Bell culture.Thanks for answering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    And Morocco ( and Marrakech ) has nothing to do with Moors , who are recorded in antiquiti like diferent nation than Berbers ? I wouldnt say so .There was land Mauretania in place of Morroco before Romans and province with same name in empire. Aldo it is truth that first state in Midle Ages in Morroco was formed by Berbers . Ask any Morrocan ( nation not citizenship ) is he Berber , and ask any Berber is he Morrocan.
    Explain to me what exactly you have been trying to argue then all the time?!

    What is also very interesting is shared mthDNA betwen Morrocans and Saami nation ( Laponia , Sweden). That seems to coincide with shared Paleolithical archeological findings of Europe and Morroco . After Morroco was also adopted Baker-Bell culture.Thanks for answering.
    I would still argue that it's likely that Berbers / Proto-Berbers were in North Africa since at least the early 3rd millennium BC, since the Semitic languages and Old Egyptian are attested from that time, and the other Afro-Asiatic branches besides Egyptian and Semitic must be at least as old, unless you somehow argue that Berber is somehow closer with the Chadic and Cushitic families and emerged from some kind of later, intermediate proto-language, something that I have no linguist so far claim.

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    Ok , you are the one that claimed Morrocan are Berbers ,but they are not , they are descendants of Moors , it is posible that Berbers made a state during Midle Ages in place of ancient (antique) Mauritian state ,and include Moors in that state , but Moors are not Berbers because of that . Like first independent Egyptian state in Middle ages was formed by Mameluks ( Kurds ) - Babers and Salah al Din ( Saladin) , and that isnt make Egyptians to become Kurds. Please ask some Morrocan to explain you a diference betwen Morrocans and Berbers , because I obviosly cannt
    No I am not trying to say Berber is Chadic , I merely saying there is posibility Morrocan didnt speack Berber previosly to Arabic , maybe I am wrong.What about those common mthDNA dont they show conection of Morrocans with Europeans ?
    Thanks for answering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Ok , you are the one that claimed Morrocan are Berbers ,but they are not , they are descendants of Moors , it is posible that Berbers made a state during Midle Ages in place of ancient (antique) Mauritian state ,and include Moors in that state , but Moors are not Berbers because of that . Like first independent Egyptian state in Middle ages was formed by Mameluks ( Kurds ) - Babers and Salah al Din ( Saladin) , and that isnt make Egyptians to become Kurds. Please ask some Morrocan to explain you a diference betwen Morrocans and Berbers , because I obviosly cannt
    The Moors of the Medieval Ages were of mixed Arab/Berber descend, besides, the term "Moor" is an exonym, which is in turn derived from the word "Mauri", which was the name of a Berber tribe in North Africa in Antiquity, which also lend itself name to the kingdom / Roman province of Mauretania. The modern-day country of Mauritania is named for said territory, but otherwise bears no links whatsoever.

    No I am not trying to say Berber is Chadic , I merely saying there is posibility Morrocan didnt speack Berber previosly to Arabic , maybe I am wrong.What about those common mthDNA dont they show conection of Morrocans with Europeans ?
    Thanks for answering
    As I said, there is no evidence what so ever that the native people in North(-west) Africa did speak another language except Berber languages in Antiquity. Mind you, this is a time from which there is written records in Greek and Roman sources, and various geographers (such as Strabo and Ptolemy) have fairly extensive reports on the region.

    As I said, the fact that other branches of the Afro-Asiatic languages are attested from 3rd millennium BC onward (ie Egyptian and Semitic), it suggests that the Berber languages are just as old. In Antiquity, there is no evidence of native languages other than the Berber languages in northwestern Africa, which fits with what I said before, that the region is Berberized for a very long time.

    Let's get back to your original claim there: you suggested the Iberians originally came from Africa. If this is the case, then the connection must be pretty old.
    Last edited by Taranis; 29-08-11 at 11:41.

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    Although the Moors came to be identified as Muslim, the name Moor pre-dates Islam. It derives from the small Numidian Kingdom of Maure of the 3rd century BCE in what is now northern central and western part of Algeria and a part of northern Morocco.[9] The name was applied to people of the entire region. "They were called Maurisi by the Greeks", wrote Strabo, "and Mauri by the Romans."[10] During that age, the Maure or Moors were trading partners of Carthage, the independent city state founded by Phoenicians. During the second Punic war between Carthage and Rome, two Moorish Numidian kings took different sides, Syphax with Carthage, Masinissa with the Romans, decisively so at Zama.
    Thereafter, the Moors entered into treaties with Rome. King Jugurtha responded to violence against merchants with war. Juba, a later king, was a friend of Rome. Eventually, the Roman Empire incorporated the region as the provinces of Mauretania Caesariensis and Mauretania Tingitana. The area around Carthage was already part of the province of Africa. Roman rule was effective enough so that these provinces became integrated into the empire.

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    Yes to go back on my original thesis:
    Why would it had to be ancient , there is only distance of 6-7 miles betwen Europe and Africa , so we should expect constant overflow . Like I mentioned similarity betwen Saami and Moroccan mthDNA showing ancient move of European Paleolithic mthDNA in Africa .
    But there is also "African " yDNA in aerias of Iberian penincula that Arabs/ Moors never conquered( Galicia 22% E most in Spain, Castille and Leon 16% ), and even France . This point on move of African males (yDNA ) in betwen Paleolithe and Arab conquest .

    Haplogroups by foloving order : I1; I2a and I2* ; I2b ; R1a ; R1b ; G;J2 ; J1 and J*; E1b1b ; T ; Q ; N .
    Spain
    1.5
    4.5
    1
    2
    69
    3
    8
    1.5
    7
    2.5
    0
    0
    Andalusia


    0
    9.5
    0
    3.5
    58.5
    3
    10.5
    2
    10
    3
    0
    0
    Aragon


    2
    14.5
    1
    2
    60.5
    1
    10.5
    0
    5
    4
    0
    0
    Asturias


    2
    2
    0
    2.5
    58.5
    8
    8
    2
    14
    3
    0
    0
    Basque country


    0
    9
    0
    0
    86
    0
    2.5
    1
    1
    0
    0.5
    0
    Cantabria


    1
    3
    2
    8.5
    55
    10.5
    3
    2.5
    11
    2.5
    0
    0
    Castile & Leon


    0.5
    2
    0.5
    3
    64
    5
    6
    1
    16
    2
    0
    0
    Castile-La-Mancha


    1.5
    1.5
    0.5
    1.5
    66
    8
    10
    4
    5
    2
    0
    0
    Catalonia


    0.5
    5
    0.5
    0.5
    82.5
    6
    2
    0
    3
    0
    0
    0
    Extremadura


    3.5
    5
    1
    0
    50
    5
    11.5
    0
    18.5
    5
    0
    0
    Galicia


    3
    2.5
    1.5
    0
    63
    3
    3.5
    1
    22
    0.5
    0
    0
    Valencia


    3
    5.5
    1
    3
    63.5
    1
    6
    2
    13.5
    1.5
    0
    0

    Portugal
    2
    1.5
    3
    1.5
    56
    6.5
    9.5
    3
    14
    2.5
    0.5
    0


    Thanks for answering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Although the Moors came to be identified as Muslim, the name Moor pre-dates Islam. It derives from the small Numidian Kingdom of Maure of the 3rd century BCE in what is now northern central and western part of Algeria and a part of northern Morocco.[9] The name was applied to people of the entire region. "They were called Maurisi by the Greeks", wrote Strabo, "and Mauri by the Romans."[10] During that age, the Maure or Moors were trading partners of Carthage, the independent city state founded by Phoenicians. During the second Punic war between Carthage and Rome, two Moorish Numidian kings took different sides, Syphax with Carthage, Masinissa with the Romans, decisively so at Zama.
    Thereafter, the Moors entered into treaties with Rome. King Jugurtha responded to violence against merchants with war. Juba, a later king, was a friend of Rome. Eventually, the Roman Empire incorporated the region as the provinces of Mauretania Caesariensis and Mauretania Tingitana. The area around Carthage was already part of the province of Africa. Roman rule was effective enough so that these provinces became integrated into the empire.
    Yes, this is correct, but what language do you expect did the Numidians speak if not Berber languages? Especially if Berber town names and personal names are attested from the Numidians?

    Even Wikipedia claims that they were Berber tribes.

    If you have any evidence that the Numidians spoke a language other than Berber, please provide evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Yes to go back on my original thesis:
    Why would it had to be ancient , there is only distance of 6-7 miles betwen Europe and Africa , so we should expect constant overflow . Like I mentioned similarity betwen Saami and Moroccan mthDNA showing ancient move of European Paleolithic mthDNA in Africa.
    I was talking about the linguistic connection here, and it has to be old. You claimed that the Iberians were originally from North Africa. Iberian, just like Basque, was an agglutinative language, whereas the Berber languages (part of the Afro-Asiatic family) are fusional. Also the sound inventories of Iberian and the Berber languages are very different and non-compatible. If there was any language in North Africa akin to Iberian, it must have been there before the Berber languages.

    When did the Berbers come to North Africa? As I said, two other branches of Afro-Asiatic (Egyptian and Semitic families - the former via Old Egyptian, the latter via Akkadian) are attested from the early 3rd millennium BC, which proofs that the Afro-Asiatic language family already had split up at the time. This means, some kind of Proto-Berber must have been spoken simultaneous to Old Eygptian and Akkadian. Where did these speakers of Proto-Berber live, if not in North(-west) Africa?

    The only logical conclusion is that if there was some kind of language in North Africa akin to Iberian, it must have been spoken very long ago and the connection would be very old, because the Berbers are likely to have lived there already for very long.
    Last edited by Taranis; 30-08-11 at 12:54.

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    No there is not hard evidence Moroccans ever spoke other languague than Berberian , but there is not any evidence what languague they spocked before Arabic . Name of cities , rivers, names is Berberic but it could be because Berbers came hier before Moors ( like for instance all river names in Poland , Czech ,... are not Slavic ) .
    Yes Wikipedia say Numidians are Berbers but Jordanes in his " Getica " speacking about Vandals wars against indigenous populations clearly separate Moors and Berbers , they make separate wars and are not the same nation .
    It is not realy mein theory , I just folowed report of Pausania that Iberians comed in Iberia around 1200 BC from Africa , it is not certain , but just a posibility.
    Iberian and Berberian are obviosly not the same , but Berberian could live next to the some other languague for very long time , like he live next to Arabic nowadays , again just proposition not hard claim . Because speackers of Berberic are nomads ( especialy in old times , less today) and they do not mix to much with sedimentary populations ( like Slavs didnt took to many words from Scyths and Sarmatians) .
    Helens know the Berbers like Lothophagi ( Lothus eaters) ,and later they use Egyptian name Lybians , so as the Romans . They called themselves Imazighens ( town of Masyllia writen by Romans , Mshwhs mercenaries in Egypt ,... )

    These is also very interesting:
    Dating to the Mesolithic era, stone blades and tools, as well as small stone figurines, of the Capsian culture (named after Gafsa, Tunisia) are connected indirectly to the prehistoric presence of the Berbers in North Africa. Also related are some of the prehistoric monuments built using very large rocks (dolmens). Located both in Europe and Africa, these dolmens are found at locations throughout the region of the western Mediterranean.[9] The Capsian culture was preceded by the Ibero-Maurusian in North Africa.[10]
    A commonly held view of Berber origins is that Paleo-Mediterranean peoples long occupying the region combined with several other largely Mediterranean groups, two from the east near S.W.Asia and bringing the Berber languages about eight to ten kya (one traveling west along the coast and the other by way of the Sahel and the Sahara), with a third intermingling earlier from Iberia.[16][17][18] "At all events, the historic peopling of the Maghrib is certainly the result of a merger, in proportions not yet determined, of three elements: Ibero-Maurusian, Capsian and Neolithic," the last being "true proto-Berbers".[19]
    Perhaps eight millennia ago, already there were prior peoples established here, among whom the proto-Berbers (coming from the east) mingled and mixed, and from whom the Berber people would spring, during an era of their ethno-genesis.[24][25] Today half or more of modern Tunisians appear to be the descendants of ancient Berber ancestors
    Ibero Maurisian culture egzisted in North Africa since LGM to Younger Dryas .


    It was suceded by Capsian culture :
    The Capsian culture (named after the town of Gafsa in Tunisia) was a Mesolithic culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE. It was concentrated mainly in modern Tunisia, Algeria and Libya, with some sites attested in southern Spain to Sicily. It is traditionally divided into two horizons, the Capsien typique (Typical Capsian) and the Capsien supérieur (Upper Capsian) which are sometimes found in chronostratigraphic sequence. They represent variants of one tradition, the differences between them being both typological and technological
    So moving from Africa to Europe and backward was comon
    Anatomically, Capsian populations were modern Homo sapiens, traditionally classed into two "racial" types: Proto-Mediterranean and Mechta-Afalou on the basis of cranial morphology. Some have argued that they were immigrants from the east, [7] whereas others argue for population continuity based on physical skeletal characteristics and other criteria,[8] et cetera.[4][8][9]
    Given its widespread occurrence in the Sahara, the Capsian culture is identified by some historical linguists as a possible ancestor of the speakers of modern Afroasiatic languages of Africa and the Middle East which includes the Berber languages in North Africa ( aldo I prefer theory that Afro-Asiatic languagues came with Berbers during Neolithe )
    Thanks for answering . Very inspiring discusion

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    We need more study on Z196 and its subclade for a better understanding of Iberian R1b and its relations to other Western european people
    Hear, hear. There is a lot of peripheral discussion here, e.g about the absence of U152 and L21, brother clades of Z196 that appear to have walked through most of Europe with their livestock (one hesitates to say "behind their cows," but the temptation is there). That took a relatively long time. While those large clades were crossing the subcontinent, around the beginning of the Bronze Age, Z196 (or some of its subclades, including L176.2 or its descendant SRY2627; and including the "North/South cluster" and eventually its descendant M153, the "Basque marker") may well have arrived in Iberia by sea, and without much livestock -- but knowing such useful things as how to domesticate and use the local Pottock ponies (this was suggested by Didier Vernade); how to smelt metals, mine copper and tin; how to build cargo boats and use them, on rivers and at sea. Trading in metals and ores, amber, bell beakers, that sort of thing.

    This is all highly speculative and premature; but it solves some of the conundrums that seem to occupy this thread unnecessarily, in the apparent absence of any mental picture of the very large, very old Z196 element of R1b-P312. (Z196 was mentioned in one post out of the first 95, here.)

    I myself have speculated that the seafaring (and often absent) Z196 dads may have spoken some form of Indo-European, perhaps Ligurian; but their local wives (in Basque country) spoke the local language, and continued to do so while Dad was off somewhere trading. (Cornwall and Devon, Cantabria, Bretagne, and Poland are among the markets suggested by certain Z196 remnants.) Anyway, the kids learned to talk from Mom, not Dad (if he wasn't there); so the Basque language may be substantially older there than the paternal DNA marker M153. Which btw marks a somewhat younger mutation that probably occurred in a restricted area after Z196 was well established in Iberia, the Basque country, and elsewhere.

    The anthropological and linguistic part of this post is wild speculation. The Y-DNA part is demonstrable; but you need to have heard of Z196 (a SNP that has only engaged the online forums since about May 2011, and is not yet to be found in academic papers on which the ink has dried).

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    This is all highly speculative and premature
    Yup; the obvious conundrum we run into anytime we talk about the Basques is how isolated they are, and how much of a stretch it is to link their language to anything. Your explanation makes sense and is one of the most likely explanations IMHO, but remains one of several possibilities. I think you would tend to link the "original" proto-Basque-speaking population to Y-DNA haplogroup I2a1a, then, yes? As opposed to theories of the original population correlating better with R1b-Z196 (as opposed to its IE cousins, which could have picked up IE later), or being some sort of hybrid or transmitted language.

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    The Y-DNA part is demonstrable; but you need to have heard of Z196 (a SNP that has only engaged the online forums since about May 2011, and is not yet to be found in academic papers on which the ink has dried).
    Why do we need to be familiar with this SNP when we already knew about M153? What are the relative age estimates?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I think you would tend to link the "original" proto-Basque-speaking population to Y-DNA haplogroup I2a1a, then, yes?
    I wouldn't, mainly because I haven't been following that at all. I'd prefer to link that population with its mitochondrial DNA, whatever that may be, because I'd expect it to be older in situ. Possibly a whole lot older. But that's someone else's project.

    Why do we need to be familiar with this SNP when we already knew about M153? What are the relative age estimates?
    Short answer, because Z196 is ancestral to the "Basque" marker M153 by a couple of steps; and is ancestral to the frequently Iberian SNP SRY2627 by a different couple of steps. Z196 is the part of P-312 that was there earliest, longest, however you'd like to express that. It would appear U152 and L21 weren't there; anyway they aren't ancestral to the most prevalent clades of R1b (where the sampling has been deep enough to detect clades) in Portugal, Spain and/or the Basque country. I think that's accurate. If not, I can take correction (by someone who knows better).

    For the age estimates, that is being hotly debated as we speak; for the moment I'm with Mike Walsh (who has been doing variance tables that include Z196, unlike everybody else) and finds the ages of Z196 and L21 very close to that of P312 itself, with U152 possibly a very little bit younger, SRY2627 much younger and M153 the youngest of all (under discussion here). For specific ages (rather than relative), Z196 might be in Iberia around 4900 YBP, with any of its subclades younger than that, M153 much younger. But there are many fine arguments against dating this precisely, with no aDNA to confirm any of it; the mutation rate and the length of a generation just highly educated guesses; standard deviation being argued about by some smart people with their own axes to grind, etc. I'm not going there. But I'm confident somebody is.

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    Interestingly, the subclades of Z196 seem to peak in non IE area (Iberia, Gallia Aquitania, Basque country).

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Interestingly, the subclades of Z196 seem to peak in non IE area (Iberia, Gallia Aquitania, Basque country).
    One way to look at that is by saying that the proto-Basque/Iberian connection on the R1b line would actually support the idea that the original proto-Basque population was mainly R1b, because it shows that one of the earliest (the earliest?) entrant clades into Western Europe is non-IE on its descendant branches.

    Another way to look at it is by saying that it's only evidence that a particular clade dropped its IE language, and shows that Western European R1b was all IE at one point, as evidenced by the fact that we can now see that there is greater SNP diversity among IE than among non-IE.

    So I think it's a wash regarding our understanding of the origin of the Basque language.

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    So lets get back on subject: where from would R-P312/Z196 come bringing so litle G2a with him ?And why was so litle G2a in Basque region before it comed?

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