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Thread: Lack of G2a in Basque

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    So lets get back on subject: where from would R-P312/Z196 come bringing so litle G2a with him ?And why was so litle G2a in Basque region before it comed?

    R1b M153 and SRY2627 in the Basque country are like R1b L21 in Ireland. Those two subclades seem to leave no room for other haplogroups or even other R1b subclade.
    While R1b U152 correlates to some extent with G2a (and perhaps J2), the R1b subclades of the Atlantic facade (L21, M153, SRY2627) really have their own territory.
    The big differences between those Atlantic subclades is that while R1b L21 is mainly Celtic, the carriers of Z196 belong to different cultures (Q celtic, Iberian, Aquitanian) whose some were non IE.

    So the age of R1b subclades is really decisive to understand the History of R1b in western Europe.
    Is U152 older than Z196?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    O , you meant autosomal , that is a fact.
    I believe Basque haplotype is R1b1a2a1a1b2( R-M135) , yes its quite possible.
    Your cousin is Atlantic modal haplotype -R1b1b2 ( HT 15) and it is most comon in Europe of all R1b , its widely spreaded in Spain , Portugal ,Wales , Ireland , Scotland , and Ireland . So answer to your question is yes it can . Now I remembered one thing that I asked my self , if all R1b comed during IE setling when did it reached British islands ? It is obviosly that R1b tribes from Spain spreaded toward them .
    Thanks for answer
    I wrote to my cousin asking if he wanted to join Dodecad. He has already sent the raw data to Dienekes'. In next days results will be published.

    It's the first Dodecad participant with 4 Basque grandparents, all from Guipuzkoa.

    Regards.

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    I would be inclined to think that R1b came with Indo-Europeans (aka Beaker Culture) to Western Europe, if not for the fact that if so there should be much more R1a there, as Indo-Europeans most probably had that haplogroup. Thus, I think that R1b came to Western Europe some time in the Middle to Late Neolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    I would be inclined to think that R1b came with Indo-Europeans (aka Beaker Culture) to Western Europe, if not for the fact that if so there should be much more R1a there, as Indo-Europeans most probably had that haplogroup. Thus, I think that R1b came to Western Europe some time in the Middle to Late Neolithic.
    Welcome to the forum!

    First off, I agree that the Beaker-Bell Culture is currently the best candidate for bringing both Indo-European languages and R1b into Western Europe. However, consider that Beaker-Bell is Chalcolithic (Copper Age), and not Neolithic. Also, in the case you did not know (it's mentioned a couple of times in this thread, however), there have been ancient DNA samples from two Neolithic sites (one in southern France, the other in Germany), both which failed to bring up any sample of R1b.

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    Thanks for the welcoming, oh great Thunder God (have you thout that his association with the wheel may be because of the sound it makes? Oh well, I better leave that for later)!

    Yes, I am indeed aware of the aDNA tests in the LBK graves. However, is it not possibly that R1b in W. Europe comes from some time after the LBK but before the Beaker Culture; and that the Beaker material culture, as well as the IE languages were something that "caught on" among the relative newcomers? I know that it may be tempting to consider the arrival of IE languages and of R1b to W. Europe a joint enterprise, but then, ¿Why the lack of R1a?
    Edit: Perhaps the R1b carriers can be associated with megalithism?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Yes, I am indeed aware of the aDNA tests in the LBK graves. However, is it not possibly that R1b in W. Europe comes from some time after the LBK but before the Beaker Culture; and that the Beaker material culture, as well as the IE languages were something that "caught on" among the relative newcomers? I know that it may be tempting to consider the arrival of IE languages and of R1b to W. Europe a joint enterprise, but then, ¿Why the lack of R1a?
    Edit: Perhaps the R1b carriers can be associated with megalithism?
    I think it's still possible that R1b has been around in Europe since the Neolithic, and we've just failed to test the right Neolithic ancient DNA so far, but the patterns of R1b across Europe don't fit that hypothesis very well. I'd certainly be willing to revise my position if we found Neolithic Western European DNA with Y-DNA R1b.

    I think it's quite possible that Beaker people were transmitted a lot of culture from Corded Ware (R1a) peoples, and that transmission could have even had a significant impact on their expansion, which is likely linked to R1b expansion (and possibly the transmission of IE into Western Europe). However, to describe the patterns today, I think the most likely explanation is "it's complicated"... I would be unsurprised if it ended up being the case that Beaker culture was I2a2 dominant, with R1b a minority that later expanded within it, for example. Haplogroup R has this tendency to displace other haplogroups in populations, which some have linked to high sperm count, so it's quite possible that that might be in play here, as well.

    All said, I have yet to see anything that would correlate R1b to G2a, which we know is Neolithic. R1b almost certainly came after, which helps us formulate an answer to the question in the topic: the expansion that brought G2a was likely blocked against entering into the Basque area by existing Haplogroup I peoples, while the expansion of R1b into Europe likely had some advantage (genetic or cultural or maybe both) which allowed it to assimilate into and genetically dominate the existing population.

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    I agree that G2a came before R1b in Europe, although I would doubt that G2a entered Western Europe at all during the Neolithic. In my opinion, the reason for the lack of G2a specifically in Euskadi must be sought at a later date.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    I agree that G2a came before R1b in Europe, although I would doubt that G2a entered Western Europe at all during the Neolithic. In my opinion, the reason for the lack of G2a specifically in Euskadi must be sought at a later date.
    Well, as I mentioned multiple times, G2a has been found in Neolithic sites, one of them in Treilles, France, along with I2a1. There has been another Neolithic site, from Germany, which yielded G2a, and curiously enough, Haplogroup *F. Thus, it stands to reason that Haplogroup G was *the* Y-Haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers.

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    In Treilles, France? That is indeed news for me! Can I have the link to the article? Thanks in advance! Also, about the haplogroup F they found, it wasn't necessarily F*, they just didn't do any further tests, so it could have been, for example, F3, which has been found in the Netherlands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    In Treilles, France? That is indeed news for me! Can I have the link to the article? Thanks in advance! Also, about the haplogroup F they found, it wasn't necessarily F*, they just didn't do any further tests, so it could have been, for example, F3, which has been found in the Netherlands.
    Here you go:

    this and this.

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    Very interesting... But I would have preferred that it specified the nature of the site (what culture it "belonged" to). Was it a remnant of the Cardium Pottery culture, or more of a megalith-building culture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    I wrote to my cousin asking if he wanted to join Dodecad. He has already sent the raw data to Dienekes'. In next days results will be published.

    It's the first Dodecad participant with 4 Basque grandparents, all from Guipuzkoa.

    Regards.
    Eagerly await results . Thanks for answering

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    [QUOTE=sparkey;379299]I think it's still possible that R1b has been around in Europe since the Neolithic, and we've just failed to test the right Neolithic ancient DNA so far, but the patterns of R1b across Europe don't fit that hypothesis very well. I'd certainly be willing to revise my position if we found Neolithic Western European DNA with Y-DNA R1b.

    I think it's quite possible that Beaker people were transmitted a lot of culture from Corded Ware (R1a) peoples, and that transmission could have even had a significant impact on their expansion, which is likely linked to R1b expansion (and possibly the transmission of IE into Western Europe). However, to describe the patterns today, I think the most likely explanation is "it's complicated"... I would be unsurprised if it ended up being the case that Beaker culture was I2a2 dominant, with R1b a minority that later expanded within it, for example. Haplogroup R has this tendency to displace other haplogroups in populations, which some have linked to high sperm count, so it's quite possible that that might be in play here, as well.

    All said, I have yet to see anything that would correlate R1b to G2a, which we know is Neolithic. R1b almost certainly came after, which helps us formulate an answer to the question in the topic: the expansion that brought G2a was likely blocked against entering into the Basque area by existing Haplogroup I peoples, while the expansion of R1b into Europe likely had some advantage (genetic or cultural or maybe both) which allowed it to assimilate into and genetically dominate the existing population.[/QUOTE ]
    That is the best answer on my question yet . But stil there is problem because Basque has 86% R1b , and that R1b had to pas tru West Europe (if it come with rest of R1b) , and it had to pick up some G2a like the rest of R1b did . I gues that reason for today Basque has less then 0,25% G2a is that old population ( I2a1) has very litle G2a , but also incoming population ( R1b) had to has very litle G2a , because they descendants are mayority today. You provided answer on first part of question , but second part is yet there.
    Thanks for answer

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    I allready sugested there is posibility R1b was in Europe during Mesolithe , but not in western Europe . They could posibly been in south and central Europe . I would remind you that R1b* is realy rare and it is found only in Turkey - 2 cases , and maybe R1b* or R1a* in Jordan ( 20/45 on Dead sea coast ) ,Sudanes Fulani (14/26), Egypt in 2/92 cases . It seems to me that parts of R1 retrieved to Asia Minor and there has been maded R1b? Also there is 0,6% of R1b-V88( African R1b) on Balkans , and 0,3 % of it in west Asia.
    What is even more important R1b1* is also rare 2 cases in Turkey , 3 in Italy , 1 in west Asia and 1 in east Asia. It look to me it emerged in west Asia and south Europe .
    Posible theory could be : R1 took refugee in Asia Minor during LGM and produced R1b, other part of R1 gone north of Black sea and produced R1a ( they were both retreathing toward east , which is most likely scenario - simillar groups going together ).
    during early Neolithe G2a moved from Caucasus and settled in Europe( maybe under presure of R1a or R1b ) , seatled with rare hunters - I2a1 , up to these times parts of R1 has already resetled parts of Europe - R1a on Balkans - 11.000 years old .
    Then around 5500 BC there was catastrophe - ice caps on Caucasus melted , increasing levels of Caspian lake , and it overflow in Black sea ( that was in that time lake ) , Black sea has grown and floaded Asia Minor , bursting tru Bosphorus in to Aegean sea, and there was back wave , but before that hapened R1b crossed to Balkans. When waters retreated Asia Minor was empty , and that emptynes was filled with J and E1b1b1 coming from east and south . Parts of R1b hasnt fleed to Balkans but on the north mixing with R1a, creating IE and remaining in genetic makeup of Armenians , Baskhirs , Tocharians,... R1b under presure of incoming E1b1b1 and J retrived from Balkans in to central Europe , forming Baker -Bell culture . They stayed there until R1a started its expansion toward west
    , R1b received IE languague and retrived west colonizing its curent habitats - that would explain lack of R1a in west Europe .
    I know it is farrytale , but does it have some truth ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Eagerly await results . Thanks for answering
    Results are available. Check DOD818.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...COCa89AJ#gid=3

    Also, he has sent to Eurogenes too, and Davidski was quite surprised with him. Probably he will be included in the next run.

    It's a very interesting one. He clusters with the HGDP French-Basques almost neatly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    That is the best answer on my question yet . But stil there is problem because Basque has 86% R1b , and that R1b had to pas tru West Europe (if it come with rest of R1b) , and it had to pick up some G2a like the rest of R1b did .
    It didn't have to pass through, if it went around. The easiest way to do that would be in boats. There are other ways, and routes; in any case, there is some reason to suspect that the part of R1b represented by Z196 (and thus highly relevant to Basques) did not migrate westward with, alongside, or by the same routes (i.e., through Europe) as its brother clades U152 and L21, or its cousin U106. If it came by a path along which there was no G2a to pick up, it would not have picked any up.

    That doesn't explain why there weren't already G2a guys in Basque country. (Maybe, the stuff they liked to hunt and gather didn't grow there?) It only explains how R1b could get there without picking up G2a. What you asked about, I thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    It didn't have to pass through, if it went around. The easiest way to do that would be in boats. There are other ways, and routes; in any case, there is some reason to suspect that the part of R1b represented by Z196 (and thus highly relevant to Basques) did not migrate westward with, alongside, or by the same routes (i.e., through Europe) as its brother clades U152 and L21, or its cousin U106. If it came by a path along which there was no G2a to pick up, it would not have picked any up.

    That doesn't explain why there weren't already G2a guys in Basque country. (Maybe, the stuff they liked to hunt and gather didn't grow there?) It only explains how R1b could get there without picking up G2a. What you asked about, I thought.
    Sparkey allready explained why there was not G2a in previous populations ( posible enough eplanation ). I considered your theory about coming by boats when I was saying they have to pass tru Europe - if I understood you corectly you said they came from Liguria
    but there is also G2a , or you think they came from Asia Minor , but there is more G2a than in Europe . So from where has they came ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Results are available. Check DOD818.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...COCa89AJ#gid=3

    Also, he has sent to Eurogenes too, and Davidski was quite surprised with him. Probably he will be included in the next run.

    It's a very interesting one. He clusters with the HGDP French-Basques almost neatly.
    Very interesting indeed . Thanks for answering

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    I cite Wikipedia:
    "Artenacian culture, named after the archaeological site of Artenac in Charente appeared in the Late Chalcolithic, c. 2400 BC, apparently as reaction to migrations of Danubian peoples into Western France.
    Because it is characterized by its abundant arrow points, it is considered a culture of bowmen. It participated fully in the megalithic culture of the Chalcolithic period.
    In successive centuries it became dominant throughout western France, establishing a stable ethno-cultural border with the Danubian culture near the Rhine that remained stable for a whole millennium.
    The Artenacian peoples are believed to be the ancestors of the historical Aquitani."
    This could be the answer to the lack of G2a in Basques.
    Edit: And maybe also the lack of Indo-European in Basques (?)!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    I cite Wikipedia:
    "Artenacian culture, named after the archaeological site of Artenac in Charente appeared in the Late Chalcolithic, c. 2400 BC, apparently as reaction to migrations of Danubian peoples into Western France.
    Because it is characterized by its abundant arrow points, it is considered a culture of bowmen. It participated fully in the megalithic culture of the Chalcolithic period.
    In successive centuries it became dominant throughout western France, establishing a stable ethno-cultural border with the Danubian culture near the Rhine that remained stable for a whole millennium.
    The Artenacian peoples are believed to be the ancestors of the historical Aquitani."
    This could be the answer to the lack of G2a in Basques.
    Well, I personally suspect a link between I2a1 and the Atlantic Megalithic Builders. In particular, the Basques have one of the highest concentrations of I2a1 (after Sardinia).

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    Iberia is full of Megalithic buildings, but I don't know if concretely the Basque country has a lot of them. In general terms I agree to atribute those monuments, primarly, to I2a1 peoples.

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    Also, one should note that the places where there is least G2a (Euskadi and Aragon) have unusually high concentrations of I2a1...

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    But in Danubian region is one of hotspots of G2a , so they have to carry some of it . And if Artenacians come from Danube( which corelates with archer culture ) , then they couldnt be I2a1 , because it is in Iberian penincula since Paleolithe .Am I missing something ?
    Do somebody know region ith high R1b and low or absent G2a which would colerate with Basque ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    But in Danubian region is one of hotspots of G2a , so they have to carry some of it . And if Artenacians come from Danube( which corelates with archer culture ) , then they couldnt be I2a1 , because it is in Iberian penincula since Paleolithe .Am I missing something ?
    Do somebody know region ith high R1b and low or absent G2a which would colerate with Basque ?
    Yes: The Artenacian culture grew as a local reaction to the Danubian Expansion, not as an extension of it.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    RP312 DF27 Z196 Z220

    Country: USA - Virginia



    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I was able to think only these scenarios :
    snip --
    3)
    snip --
    Second posibility is that Basque R1b could come from aerias with no G2a like : central and north Scandinavia or Baltic coast or some other , any sugestions?
    Maybe you can find some more scenarios please post
    You said it. All I meant was that, having left someplace without a G2a population component, if Z196 didn't walk through the European subcontinent but took boats (or a different, mostly land route), there was no requirement of picking up G2a along the way. Also, G2a may have daughtered out in some places that are relevant -- or were, at the time of the Z196 movement. Or there might have been a caste system. That could be at their place of departure; some intermediate stopover (such as Liguria, which btw is not my suggestion but one that has been made by a French colleague); or the Basque country in which the M153 subclade, at least, ended up. What we see in populations today may not reveal much about what these migrants (traders, conquerors, lovers, musicians, guys with high sperm count, or whatever they were) saw, roughly 5,000 years ago.

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