Dodecad Project confirms North African ancestry into Portuguese...

[luis77]

For many years people had wrong ideas about Moorish influence in Portugal. But recently, admixture and haplogroup analysis (Y-Dna and mtDna) on large samples both prove that Moorish admixture is real in some Iberian ethnic groups like Portuguese.


"North African" admixture in Portuguese:

1) Dodecad : about 9% with a few individuals over 10%!

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...COCa89AJ#gid=0

North African/Berber: 6.8
East African:1.2
Neo African:0.7

2) Eurogenes : 13-14%

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/04/n...nds-at-k8.html

3) Dna Tribes : 13-14%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_Tri...011.29.5B11.5D


These results confirm what was reported by recent haplogroup studies that analysed large samples of Portuguese:

1) North African Y-Dna in Portugal: 47/659 > 7%

"Moors and Saracens in Europe: estimating the medieval North African male legacy in southern Europe", Capelli 2009

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

2) North African mtDna in Portugal (L, U6 Hgs): 55/594 >9%

"Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans", Achilli 2007

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...723/table/TB2/

[Knovas]

¿Wich is the purpose of the post? It's perfectly known that there is a little North African influence between Iberians. Pure Europeans almost doesn't exist, except for the Basques and some Baltics.

Non European admixture in Iberians is not higher than the one you can find between Dutch, French, English, Germans, etc. The total European score is more or less the same.

¿So what?

[Wilhelm2]

Well, the y-dna E-M81 is also found in France at 3%, (and there was a study with Andalusians showing less E-M81 than French), and mtDNA U6 has also been found in France (Brittany, Limousin, etc). As for mtDNA L, the study of Rhouda et al. fins 0% in a sample of 686 spaniards. And García et al. finds mtDNA L in Europe even in Denmark :

Hérault (Languedoc) 2.4 %
Rhône (Lyonnais) 4.4 %
Vendée and Vienne (Poitou) 0.8 %
Calvados and Seine-Maritime (Normandy) 1.8 %
Somme (Picardie) 1.3 %
France Miscellanea 0.6 %
Scotland 0.1 %
England 0.7 %
Great Britain 0.9 %
North-Germany and Denmark 0.7 %

As for the North-African there are other runs from Eurogenes with much lower north-african, anyways it doesn't make them less european, since all europeans have non-european admixture, for example the rest of Europe has more West-Asian than Iberia, or more Southwest-Asia, or more East-Asian, etc. The european scores are the same between Iberia and the rest of Europe, or even higher, see this map of European admixture from Dodecad :

[Cambrius (The Red)]

For many years people had wrong ideas about Moorish influence in Portugal. But recently, admixture and haplogroup analysis (Y-Dna and mtDna) on large samples both prove that Moorish admixture is real in some Iberian ethnic groups like Portuguese.


"North African" admixture in Portuguese:

1) Dodecad : about 9% with a few individuals over 10%!

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...COCa89AJ#gid=0

North African/Berber: 6.8
East African:1.2
Neo African:0.7

2) Eurogenes : 13-14%

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2011/04/n...nds-at-k8.html

3) Dna Tribes : 13-14%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_Tri...011.29.5B11.5D


These results confirm what was reported by recent haplogroup studies that analysed large samples of Portuguese:

1) North African Y-Dna in Portugal: 47/659 > 7%

"Moors and Saracens in Europe: estimating the medieval North African male legacy in southern Europe", Capelli 2009

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...l#figure-title

2) North African mtDna in Portugal (L, U6 Hgs): 55/594 >9%

"Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans", Achilli 2007

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...723/table/TB2/

What Dodecad REALLY confirmed is that the Portuguese are very similar to other Western European populations, with rather high (for southern Europe) north European and north Atlantic genetic affinities. By the way, readings of 2% or lower are considered as genetic "noise" or "static". The fact of the matter is that any North African admixture is quite minimal and very much dominated by total European scores of between 85 and 87%. It's time to move on.

p.s. the figures you attributed to Eurogenes are incorrect. According to the latest Eurogenes run, total African for Portugal is ~ 2.7%. Also, since when is DNA Tribes a reliable source for anything genetic? Please, let's stop the charlatan games.

[Goga]

That's Right! If you do consider R1b, R1a, I and N as European.

According to some people on this forum R1b is not native to Europe and N isn't European either, more likely Euroasian...

[sparkey]

That's Right! If you do consider R1b, R1a, I and N as European.

According to some people on this forum R1b is not native to Europe and N isn't European either, more likely Euroasian...

It's important not to let terms like "European" and "North African" in autosomal studies confuse you. "European" admixture doesn't mean Paleolithic European, or that the DNA that represents that population originated in Europe. If that was the case, there's no way we'd be seeing Tunisia as 36% European. It's just a comparison of modern populations and how much they've apparently admixed over time with one another. So a more "European" population isn't necessarily more Cro-Magnon, they just have less admixture with those who aren't marked as "European."

[Goga]

It's important not to let terms like "European" and "North African" in autosomal studies confuse you. "European" admixture doesn't mean Paleolithic European, or that the DNA that represents that population originated in Europe. If that was the case, there's no way we'd be seeing Tunisia as 36% European. It's just a comparison of modern populations and how much they've apparently admixed over time with one another. So a more "European" population isn't necessarily more Cro-Magnon, they just have less admixture with those who aren't marked as "European."

Yes, sometimes these terms confuse me very much.

They do consider West Europe, East Europe and the Mediterranean as 1 group. While there are huge differences between these groups. West Europe has almost no R1a, while East Europe has almost no R1b. Basques and Russians are absolutely not the same, almost like the affinity between Africans and Chinese. West Asia is closer to East Europe that West Europe is. It would be less confusing if they used colours or numbers or something.

Btw, if it would be a West Asian CENTRIC map, it would be in places like Geogia, Armenia, Kurdistan etc. almost 100% too! I don't spent too much time - attention - on such maps...

[Wilhelm]

Yes, sometimes these terms confuse me very much.

They do consider West Europe, East Europe and the Mediterranean as 1 group. While there are huge differences between these groups. West Europe has almost no R1a, while East Europe has almost no R1b. Basques and Russians are absolutely not the same, almost like the affinity between Africans and Chinese. West Asia is closer to East Europe that West Europe is. It would be less confusing if they used colours or numbers or something.

Btw, if it would be a West Asian CENTRIC map, it would be in places like Geogia, Armenia, Kurdistan etc. almost 100% too! I don't spent too much time - attention - on such maps...

That's completely wrong. Autosomally East and West Europe are very close, there is an overlapp.

[nuno77]

I would be cautious about using the term "Moorish". It has a strong religious conotation.
Most of 711 AD invaders were North African Berbers that were subjugated by the Islamic Arab invaders. I think these Arab (mostly J1) invaders didn't leave a big genetic footprint.

North Africa and Southern Europe share a lot of genetics affinities: the whole Mediterranean does. Just google "Genographic reference populations".

See what these scientists say about the 65%-35%:
Cerezo M, Achilli A, Olivieri A, Perego UA, Gómez-Carballa A, Brisighelli F, et al. (2012) Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe. Genome Res 22: 821–826. pmid:22454235

[Georgewalley]

6-7 north african is basicall nothing if we consider even Oetzi scored 5 percent North African. Dodecad is outdated calculator anyway and gives noisy results, often completely inaccurate ones.

[Angela]

6-7 north african is basicall nothing if we consider even Oetzi scored 5 percent North African. Dodecad is outdated calculator anyway and gives noisy results, often completely inaccurate ones.

Indeed. There's dstats, and lots of other much more recent programs in terms of statistics. All of them find North African in Iberians, however. It's also found in Southern Italians, of course, although at lower percentages. Everyone in Europe is a mix of different groups of ancestors. No need to be defensive about it.

Oh, by the way, I want to thank you for your sweet pm. However, just for the record, I'm not 60 (Would it be so terrible if I were? Is that called ageism?), I'm not autistic (We have quite a few people here who have said they're on that spectrum, although I'm not. Do you mean to insult them all?), I'm not sexless, I'm not "butthurt", and I don't have a "Levantine" hooked nose. (I guess that's a bad thing in your book? Do all the people with whom you communicate on this and other sites know that's how you feel? Would that be considered "hate speech" on college campuses and by employers? Or perhaps you use another name on anthrogenica, the apricity, and elsewhere? I know that on those sites they don't seem to care if deliberately false information is posted, so perhaps you feel more comfortable and thus post more there?

Anyway, just wanted to clear some things up. Have a nice day. Sincerely, Angela :)

[Nick123321]

Thats absolutely right, I dont think the world was expecting such a high percentage of Atlantic genes in the Portuguese. Lets take a quick history lesson and look at the Suebi and later Visigoths in Northwestern Spain/North portugal for 300 years (full assimilation years). When you consider the initial habitation of Suebi in Northwestern Spain/North Portugal during 409AD and Visigoth rule following “until” 711AD, that is 300 years of rule. Estimates assume 5,000 Suebi and 25,000 Visiogths invaded the Iberian peninsula, which is a small invading population comparatively. However in terms of how much these medievil germanic people have retained in the roots of Northwestern Spain, is underated. Although 300 years of germanic rule is shorter than 500 years of muslim rule (and 700 years for Spain), Germanic control was still very long. Futhermore, and far more important to consider, the Germanic rule that integrated into the Celtiberian Peninsula were the exact same decendents that established the kingdoms of the north to reconqor the south during the reconqusta. In contrast, the muslim moors that populated the peninsula from the south were expelled from Spain and Portugal, and we know the process was rather successful in terms of the cause considering only 5% on average of the entire Iberian Peninsula consists of North African genetics (with the addition of 2-3% native haplogroup U6 which is not present in North Africa today, denoting a very amcient branch of Haplogroup U). None the less, Germanic genetics is evident, particularly in Gallecea where a maximum of 3-4% of the genetic pool can be found in North Western Spain amd Northern Portugal. This shows the full integration of the Germanic tribes considering their already small numbers compared to the native population (by the time the Germanic tribes settled, their Germamic haplogroups were more dilluted).

In terms of language retention and influence:

Although I have yet to find a study that shows the exact explination as to why Portuguese phonetics are further away from Latin than Spanish, by observing strong Celtic influence in NW Spain/N Portugal plus 300 years of Suebi/Visigoth rule in Northwestern Spain and North Portugal, and by comparing modern day Germanic influenced languages like French, it seems evident to me that Portuguese (because of the countries Northern birthplace) has retained more Celtic/Germamic languistic influence than its Spanish neighbors (who became highly “Castillinized” by their dictator). It is estimated that portuguese contains some 1,200-1,500 Celtic/Germanic words and 500 Arabic words, while Spain shares 8,000 Arabic words.

[Angela]

Thats absolutely right, I dont think the world was expecting such a high percentage of Atlantic genes in the Portuguese. Lets take a quick history lesson and look at the Suebi and later Visigoths in Northwestern Spain/North portugal for 300 years (full assimilation years). When you consider the initial habitation of Suebi in Northwestern Spain/North Portugal during 409AD and Visigoth rule following “until” 711AD, that is 300 years of rule. Estimates assume 5,000 Suebi and 25,000 Visiogths invaded the Iberian peninsula, which is a small invading population comparatively. However in terms of how much these medievil germanic people have retained in the roots of Northwestern Spain, is underated. Although 300 years of germanic rule is shorter than 500 years of muslim rule (and 700 years for Spain), Germanic control was still very long. Futhermore, and far more important to consider, the Germanic rule that integrated into the Celtiberian Peninsula were the exact same decendents that established the kingdoms of the north to reconqor the south during the reconqusta. In contrast, the muslim moors that populated the peninsula from the south were expelled from Spain and Portugal, and we know the process was rather successful in terms of the cause considering only 5% on average of the entire Iberian Peninsula consists of North African genetics (with the addition of 2-3% native haplogroup U6 which is not present in North Africa today, denoting a very amcient branch of Haplogroup U). None the less, Germanic genetics is evident, particularly in Gallecea where a maximum of 3-4% of the genetic pool can be found in North Western Spain amd Northern Portugal. This shows the full integration of the Germanic tribes considering their already small numbers compared to the native population (by the time the Germanic tribes settled, their Germamic haplogroups were more dilluted).

In terms of language retention and influence:

Although I have yet to find a study that shows the exact explination as to why Portuguese phonetics are further away from Latin than Spanish, by observing strong Celtic influence in NW Spain/N Portugal plus 300 years of Suebi/Visigoth rule in Northwestern Spain and North Portugal, and by comparing modern day Germanic influenced languages like French, it seems evident to me that Portuguese (because of the countries Northern birthplace) has retained more Celtic/Germamic languistic influence than its Spanish neighbors (who became highly “Castillinized” by their dictator). It is estimated that portuguese contains some 1,200-1,500 Celtic/Germanic words and 500 Arabic words, while Spain shares 8,000 Arabic words.

Have you ever read a genetics paper? There isn't very much "Suebi" or "Germanic" ancestry in the Portuguese.

See where you are? See where the Germans are?



I think you're on the wrong forum.

[nuno77]

When you mention "Atlantic genes" to which haplogroups are you referring to?
The Celtic ones or the Germanic ones?


NW Iberia is very much Atlanto-Celtic: R1b L-21.


The Germanic Suebi established their capital in Bracara Augusta, the modern city of Braga and former capital of Roman Gallaecia. That would explain the I y-dna in N Portugal.
Visigoths and Alans also passed through N Iberia.


Talking about genetic diseases: it is said that "familial amyloidotic polyneuropathy" came from the Vikings.
It is very prevalent in the NW coast of Portugal: Póvoa de Varzim, Vila do Conde, Braga, Barcelos, Matosinhos.

[Muhammad Isa]

Nuno77

Sou da Vila do Conde e sou i-m253 haplogroup

[Nick123321]

Lol. Thats picture doesnt represent anything other than averages. My point is, Portuguese and Spanish have a bit over 50% Atlantic + Baltic, while the English have 75% and Germans around 70%, Italians on the other hand around 30% on average between North and South. What im saying is, there is not much of a difference between Western European countries with one another

[Angela]

Sorry, buddy, there's no way anyone could ever mistake the results of a Spaniard or Portuguese for those of someone from Great Britain or even northern France. They wouldn't plot anywhere near each other either. You're just going to have to accept that you're Southern Europeans. :)

Plus, the days for using calculators based on modern populations are over and done.

If you want to know which French people some Iberians resemble it's people from the area of southwest France and to some extent those of northern Italy
.
According to the authors Spanish North is Pais Vasco.

[davef]

Lol. Thats picture doesnt represent anything other than averages. My point is, Portuguese and Spanish have a bit over 50% Atlantic + Baltic, while the English have 75% and Germans around 70%, Italians on the other hand around 30% on average between North and South. What im saying is, there is not much of a difference between Western European countries with one another

Actually going by that pca posted above iberians are in their own unique group. That's not a bad thing, btw.

[Salento]

Actually going by that pca posted above iberians are in their own unique group. That's not a bad thing, btw.

If Portuguese are different from Spaniards, they should split Iberians in 2. ;)

[Nick123321]

Lol their is nothing to be sorry for buddy, I'm just saying for a southern European country, Portuguese plot with French, West Germans and English in the top 20 reference populations after every region in Spain, Southwest French, North and Central Italy. The difference is us south West euros have about 20% less northern and western european (Atlantic/baltic) and more diverse mediteranid autosomal DNA
Im sorry for you that we are so similar.
I know a red headed blue eyed English guy who plotted low 3's on the GEDmatch calculator for English and on his top 20 reference populations showed Galician. He wasn't surprised at all, do you read ancient history?

[Nick123321]

It's funny because the attitude of geneticists online want to believe southern Europe is so different then the rest of europe, often Spanish and Portuguese are attacked. If that was the case we would be seeing scores of South Western europeans plotting reference populations with Moroccans, Algerians and other non european populations. This isn't the case at all however, there are many south western Europeans who plot closer to english than even South Italy or Greece. This isn't an anomaly, anyone who picks up a history book will know about ancient migrations from western europe into Iberia and close ties and the oldest alliance in the world between Portugal and England (the Portuguese-Anglo Alliance).
Despite these facts solidified by tangiable scientific study via DNA samples and multi million sample databases, people still think Spain and Portugal are so different than the rest of europe. We are unique and very similar at the same time. Not trying to say anyone is better than anyone else, just giving facts, unbiased by the way, because honestly screw disinformation. But yall can spew hate all you want, hopefully someone reading this has half a sense

[Ygorcs]

All Europeans are pretty similar in a large scale picture, Finns and Saami being relative outliers, but that does not mean they cannot be easily and clearly distinguished (or at least their averages, not considering intermediary border populations and outliers). You just have to apply a higher resolution to see all the difference, because Europeans are ultimately much more homogeneous than people of many parts of Africa or even South Asia. But still if Iberians are "like Northwestern Europeans" only with minus 20% Atlantic admixture and much more Mediterranean contributions, and they only plot as a reference population for those people if you include the 20 (not 5 or 10) top results, then I am pretty sure they form their own cluster. That does not mean they are not similar to other West Europeans, but, well, it is just a fact they could never be mistaken (as an average population) with them. North Italians and Southwest French are much closer, though.

[Carlos]

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These are my results. Africa appears, evidently I am closer to Africa than other countries in Europe, and I did not expect a much higher percentage of Africa either because it is something that one feels in one way or another long before all this industry of genetic testing had developed.

Perhaps the view that foreigners have about Iberia is due in large part to the Black Legend, negative publicity. Romantic European travelers writers who traveled to Spain saw four monuments and a half and fantasized too much about Iberia influencing and forging an erroneous idea of Iberia in the European populations of the time. And finally the isolation of Spain during the Franco dictatorship. But really for us the 800 years of the Muslim era in Spain is only a paragraph in our vast history with which modern Spanish does not identify, perhaps because its end is carried out in an organized way unlike other peoples and cultures that they enter that they are diluted or they integrate without there being a so concrete plan as in the morisco case. For that reason there is a difference between what foreigners think and what Spaniards feel about this topic, so the best way to prove it is with evidence and facts simply by coming to the truth.

[Angela]

^^You're obviously not closer to African countries than to European countries. Look at your Oracle results and you'll see that.

Those are very minor percentages.

[Carlos]

^^Yes, there are many Oracles and I have practically seen it. I do not know if there is one Oracle more effective or credible than another ...