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Thread: Who were Vandals?

  1. #26
    Elite member Asturrulumbo's Avatar
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    About the Lugii (and perhaps to a lesser extent the rest of the region), they may well have been Celts (or closely related to them), or at least have a (Para-)Celtic substrate. They lived in the lands of the former Lusatian Culture. The Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, in its article about the Urnfield Culture (where pre-proto-celtic was probably spoken), states that "...The culture is divided into many regional groups, the most substantial being the Lusatian (lausitz) group or culture that occupied Poland, east Germany, the former Czechoslovakia and the western Ukraine."

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    Me to believe they were Celts , I already menion that conecting them with Celtic god Lug.
    Thanksfor joining debate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    But nobody actually give me an answer on question which haplogroups would Vandals carry with them ?
    Actually, yes:

    The typically Germanic admixture is R1a, I1, I2b, R1b-U106. If the bearers of the Lusatian Culture were carriers of R1b-U152, then it is plausible that the Vandals would have an admixture of that as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, yes:

    The typically Germanic admixture is R1a, I1, I2b, R1b-U106. If the bearers of the Lusatian Culture were carriers of R1b-U152, then it is plausible that the Vandals would have an admixture of that as well.
    Ok thanks . It also means they carried more Lusatian genes , because there is no I1 or I2b in Andalusia ( or it is less than 0,25% ) , and there is no of it in North Africa .
    Thanks for answer

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    And Lusatians were most probably not only R1b but also strong R1a - Baltic .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Ok thanks . It also means they carried more Lusatian genes , because there is no I1 or I2b in Andalusia ( or it is less than 0,25% ) , and there is no of it in North Africa .
    Thanks for answer
    As I mentioned before, the likelihood that the Vandals left a very small genetic impact is very high. I elaborated this in an earlier post:

    Also, to conclude, you must ask yourself something else: how likely is it that the Vandals left a decisive genetic impact in modern-day Tunisia? Not very big. First off, their kingdom in North Africa was rather short-lived and lasted only about a century before being destroyed by the Byzantines. Secondly, a massive pandemic depopulated the Mediterranean only after a decade after that war (the Plague of Justinian), and third, about a century later, the Umayyad Caliphate invaded North Africa and destroyed Carthage, the former capital city of the Vandals, which is why Tunis, which is even today the capital city of Tunisia, became the administrative center of the region. As a result, most Vandal men, or their descendants, would have been killed in one way or another.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    And Lusatians were most probably not only R1b but also strong R1a - Baltic .
    Yes, obviously there was older R1a in the area, dating back from the much earlier Corded Ware Culture (which was very likely the original source of R1a in Central/Eastern Europe and in Scandinavia).

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    Yes they probably left small genetic impact , but it is imposible they left none genetic impact
    Thanks for answer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Yes they probably left small genetic impact , but it is imposible they left none genetic impact
    Thanks for answer
    Yes, but the likelihood that any Vandal Y-DNA in North Africa and Iberia (especially the former!) is basically just "background noise" is very high.

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    Yes we agreed . Thanks for answering

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    There were two kinds of impulses which created the Przeworsk culture: the southern one - Silesian celts and the northern one - Germanics from northern Denmark (Bornholm). The latter borrowed a lot from celts - military technics, religious practices, etc. Mention should be also made of the local dwellers Pomeranian culture, who for a very long time lived side by side with celts and germanics and changed their cultural practices only at a developed stage of Przeworsk culture (there were also found signs of Przeworsk-Pomeranian co-habitation on 9 out of 47 sites).
    If to talk about haplogroups, then, in my opinion, these would look as follows:I1, I2b, R1b for the celto-germanic part. R1a1a1g, and especially R1a1a1g2 for the Pomeranian part.
    P.S.
    By the way, are there any R1a1a1g in Spain or Portugal?

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    Vandals are sometimes described as barbbaric people but they actualy had developed quite large culture.

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, yes:

    The typically Germanic admixture is R1a, I1, I2b, R1b-U106. If the bearers of the Lusatian Culture were carriers of R1b-U152, then it is plausible that the Vandals would have an admixture of that as well.
    I am a little new to this but are you telling me that Germans were a mixture of haplo group U? I am unfamiliar with that haplo group. Isn't that a latter mutation?

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    Vandals were eastern Germanic, about haplogroups surely some I, some R1 and I guess some T and Q were carried by them.
    Sicilians and mainlander Southern Italian phenotype galleries.

    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/1111/Re-Groups-of-Sicilians
    http://italicroots.lefora.com/topic/375/Southern-italians-how-we-really-look

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    Quote Originally Posted by James_Rippee View Post
    I am a little new to this but are you telling me that Germans were a mixture of haplo group U? I am unfamiliar with that haplo group. Isn't that a latter mutation?
    There's no haplogroup "U" in the yDna listed by Taranis. It's haplogroup R1b-U106: a subclade of R1b.


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    Vandals are Slavic-German ethnic group
    Ethymology of word "Vandal" is Wend (=Vened, Venet). Ethymology is Slavic

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends
    Vandals, translation of Russian wikipedia

    Vandals hated political catholic christian religion, therefore they demolished churches
    Last edited by Sloven-Vened; 08-09-16 at 17:04.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sloven-Vened View Post
    Vandals are Slavic ethnic group
    Ethymology of word "Vandal" is Wend (=Vened, Venet).

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends
    Vandals, translation of Russian wikipedia

    Vandals hated political catholic christian religion, therefore they demolished churches
    Sorry, but what little evidence we have of their language shows that the Vandals were Germanic. Their personal names are overtly Germanic: Geiseric ('spear chieftain' - see English 'gar', and surnames such as "Friedrich" or "Dietrich") and Hilderic ('battle chieftain' - see Brunnhilde from the Nibelungenlied). If the personal names were Germanic, and Procopius for instance claims that they spoke "Gothic" (i.e. a language identical to that of the Goths), what should they have been else but Germanic?

    Further on, despite what the Russian-language Wikipedia article claims, although the Vandals were Christians themselves, but they followed another strain of Christianity called Arianism (after its founder, Arius). They were not Orthodox because the difference between Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church did not exist yet at that point.

    PS: are you by any chance an adherent of this idea?
    Last edited by Taranis; 08-09-16 at 19:57.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry, but what little evidence we have of their language shows that the Vandals were Germanic. Their personal names are overtly Germanic: Geiseric ('spear chieftain' - see English 'gar', and surnames such as "Friedrich" or "Dietrich") and Hilderic ('battle cheaftain' - see Brunnhilde from the Nibelungenlied). If the personal names were Germanic, and Procopius for instance claims that they spoke "Gothic" (i.e. a language identical to that of the Goths), what should they have been else but Germanic?

    Further on, despite what the Russian-language Wikipedia article claims, although the Vandals were Christians themselves, but they followed another strain of Christianity called Arianism (after its founder, Arius). They were not Orthodox because the difference between Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church did not exist yet at that point.

    PS: are you by any chance an adherent of this idea?
    I am an adherent to the "idea" that the "Goths" were the Getae people known since antiquity by that name,Jordanes himself give them Thracian history,Thracian gods etc,further more they were known that are Getae(Thracians) by every author until the 17th century,the book was known as Getica,no Gothica,De origine actibusque Getarum,become known as separate Germanic Goths in the 17th century see Gothicism.There is couple of books mostly by Bulgarian/Romanian researchers on the subject,about the confusion.
    This belong to separate thread,anyone is willing to open i can cooperate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    Vandals were eastern Germanic, about haplogroups surely some I, some R1 and I guess some T and Q were carried by them.
    Culturally the Vandals were Germanic's, but ethnically they overlapped with Slavs, Romanians, Balts. So ethnically they might have been mixed with Germanic slight majority. Their brutality and destruction is not any different from modern Germanic tribes. Remember the scale of destruction in the European soil from WW1 and WW2 from Germans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DuPidh View Post
    Culturally the Vandals were Germanic's, but ethnically they overlapped with Slavs, Romanians, Balts. So ethnically they might have been mixed with Germanic slight majority. Their brutality and destruction is not any different from modern Germanic tribes. Remember the scale of destruction in the European soil from WW1 and WW2 from Germans.
    Which sources you have?The Vandals were the only Germanic people who counquered Sardinia and in the island there is zero Slav and Baltic dna but a small percentage of Germanic haplogroups yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    PS: are you by any chance an adherent of this idea?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_theory
    This article is only about Slovenes.

    Russian archeologist akademik Sedov is most important archeologist in Russia. Vandals have German-Slavic origin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloven-Vened View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_theory
    This article is only about Slovenes.

    Russian archeologist akademik Sedov is most important archeologist in Russland. Vandals have German-Slavic origin
    Possibly. We can only speculate on it till we have their DNA, and DNA of involved ethnic groups of this era. The only sure things now is that they spoke Germanic language and that they were Christians. Pretty unusual for a Slavic group till 9th century, wouldn't you say?
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauteville View Post
    The Vandals were the only Germanic people who counquered Sardinia and in the island there is zero Slav and Baltic dna
    The bolded part is not true.

    In fact, typically Slavic haplogroups are more numerous in Sardinia than typically Germanic ones.

    Among 1204 Sardinians, there were over a dozen samples of typically Slavic and Baltic Y-DNA:

    2 x I2a1b-M423
    5 x R1a-M458>PF7521
    1 x R1a-M458>L1029
    3 x R1a-Z280>Y1396
    1 x R1a-Z280>YP372
    1 x R1a-Z280>CTS4648

    As for Y-DNA most commonly associated with Germanic people, there were only four samples:

    2 x R1b-U106
    2 x I1-M253

    There are also 5 samples of haplogroups associated with Central Asian populations in Sardinia:

    4 x R1a-Z93
    1 x Q1a3c-L527

    And I2a2a-M223 which has no strong ethnic association but isn't common in Southern Europe:

    10 x I2a2a-M223

    =========================================

    Other Y-DNA included 128 samples of R1b-U152 associated with Italic & Celtic ancestry - consistent with the long period of Roman rule in Sardinia - as well as 25 samples of P312*, 2 of DF13>L513, 4 of Celtiberian & Celtic DF27 and 2 of Insular Celtic L21:

    128 x R1b-U152
    25 x R1b-P312*
    4 x R1b-DF27
    2 x R1b-L21
    2 x R1b-DF13>L513

    There were also 22 samples of basal clades of R1b (including 19 of Eastern R1b - so called ht35 - and 3 of basal L151):

    R1b-L151* - 3
    R1b-L23* - 9
    R1b-M269* - 10

    Finally, the remaining 989 Sardinians among those 1204 had typically European Neolithic and Non-European Y-DNA:

    465 x I2a1a
    11 x I2c
    131 x G2a
    126 x E1b1b1
    6 x E1a1
    98 x J2
    63 x J1c
    29 x R1b-V88
    10 x R2a1
    28 x T
    8 x L
    7 x F3
    7 x A1b1b2b
    There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Their personal names are overtly Germanic: Geiseric ('spear chieftain' - see English 'gar', and surnames such as "Friedrich" or "Dietrich") and Hilderic ('battle cheaftain' - see Brunnhilde from the Nibelungenlied).
    You mentioned some the most Germanic-sounding names that appears among them - Geiseric, Hilderic.

    But there are also Non-Germanic-sounding Vandal names, from African and Iberian inscriptions, such as:

    Crecemirus, Damiro, Godemiro, Gramila, Gualamira, Gualamirus, Gudileuva, Lubinus, Miro, Odisclus, Onemirus, Radagajs, Rademirus, Ragimiru, Ranisclus, Ricimer, Salamirus, Sueredus, Suimirus, Sinthiliuba, Sundemirus, Suniemirus, Swintila, Victemirus, Vistisclo, Vistremiro, Vitisclus, Svevlad, Visislaus, Vitislaus, Wisimar, Miesiclaus, Radagaisus, Valamir

    These are some of the least Germanic-sounding names that appear in various inscriptions and chronicles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, yes:

    The typically Germanic admixture is R1a, I1, I2b, R1b-U106.
    R1a is by no means "typically Germanic".

    There is a huge scarcity of R1a among "purely" Germanic nations, except for Scandinavia (but there it is R1a-Z284 and R1a-L664 rather than R1a-Z280 or R1a-M458 - which are totally different clades, that have not been found in Corded Ware culture and according to TMRCA age estimates, expanded much later).

    R1a of Germans is mostly from assimilated Slavs, and it correlates very strongly with historical distribution of Slavs (see my map):

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post488616

    In the past R1a used to be associated with Indo-Europeization of entire Europe. But currently we know that Western Europe was Indo-Europeanized by R1b who migrated from the Steppe. R1a - subclades of which tend to be much younger (according to TMRCA age estimates) - is mostly due to much later Slavic migrations.

    % of R1a in West Germanic nations which - unlike Germany and Austria - don't have much of Slavic admixture:

    England - 4,5% (according to Eupedia)
    Flanders - 4,3% (sample size: 695 men)
    Brabant - 4,0% (sample size: 74 men)


    =========================

    In a large sample of 1830 English men who lived ca. year 1700 (on average), there were 72 (ca. 4%) with R1a.

    Out of these 72, just 37 could be assigned to particular subclades, while 35 did not test for enough SNPs so far:

    R1a-Z284 (Scandinavian branch) = 17 people:

    R-CTS4179 - 5 - Francis Harker b. 1773; E. Leeminge b. 1611; T. Marsden b. 1667; Benjamin Wilson b. 1637; William Russell b. 1605
    R-L448 - 3 - Benjamin Ferguson b. 1766; Richard Kidd b. 1679; William b. 1671
    R-YP386 - 2 - James Cottle b. 1817; William Mugford b. 1789
    R-YP355 - 2 - William Boulton b. 1885; Christopher Tolchard b. 1524
    R-CTS2243 - 1 - Edward Newman b. 1803
    R-CTS8277 - 2 - Robert Bridberry b. 1630; William Heath b. 1587
    R-S4458 - 1 - Robert Fooke b. 1697
    R-Z287 - 1 - James Holliman b. 1785

    R1a-L664 (Western European branch) = 8 people:

    R-L664 - 7 - Harry Francis Fox b. 1849; Thomas Judd b. 1608; William Lane; Lt. William Palmer b. 1610; William Tapley Waymouth b. 1811; John Pike 1573; Christopher Robinsonne b. 1636
    R-CTS5768 - 1 - Edmund Drake b. 1480 (ancestor of famous Francis Drake)

    R1a-Z280 (Balto-Slavic branch) = 5 people:

    R-Z280 - 2 - John Fenimore b. 1480; Thomas Winsor b. 1788
    R-CTS3402 - 1 - Trott
    R-FGC2555 - 1 - John Hollister d. 1596
    R-S24902 - 1 - Thomas Yeo b. 1700

    R1a-M458 (Slavic branch) = 2 people:

    R-L1029 - 1 - Batt b. 1505;
    R-YP445 - 1 - John Shanner b. 1776

    R1a-CTS6 (Jewish subclade of R1a-Z93) = 1 person:

    R-CTS8448 - 1 - Moses Phillips b. 1787

    R1a-Z93 (Indo-Iranian branch) = 4 people:

    R-Z93 - 1 - John Mason b. 1650
    R-Z94 - 3 - John Gibson b. 1721; William Grant b. 1643; John Lett b. 1750

    Undetermined R1a-Z283 (European branches) = 3 people:

    R-Z283 - 2 - William Bambrook b. 1756; Thomas Coverdale b. 1726
    R-Z282 - 1 - Edward Starbuck b. 1584

    Undetermined branches of R1a = 32 people:

    R-SRY10831 - 5
    R-M17 - 3
    R-M198 - 21
    R-M417 - 2
    R1a - 1

    Reginald (Reynold) Ap Adams, b. 1242
    John Ingram, b. 1350
    Alex Alvord, b. 1627
    John Bickford, b. 1603
    Richard Boak, b. 1780
    Thomas John Bruff, b. 1648
    William Carpenter, b. 1605
    John Croome, b. 1784
    Thomas Dowland, b. 1781
    Samuel Elliott
    Thomas Gadsby, b. 1802
    William Goulden/Golding, b. 1680
    Philip Harris b. 1722
    Edward Jenkins b. 1617
    Jeremiah Lee b. 1790
    Ralph Leeming b. 1738
    Thomas Manson, b. 1700
    George Maris, b. 1632
    Richard Myllward, b. 1545
    John Parsons, b. 1766
    Edward Rowell, b. 1705
    Henry Rust, b. 1631
    John Scarcliffe, d. 1661
    William Sillett, b. 1789
    Giles Slocum, b. 1623
    William Southmead of Wray
    Robert Walkland, b. 1676
    Henry Wall, b. 1650
    John Williams, b. 1563
    NN from Birmingham
    NN from Waddington
    NN from Lancashire

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    1) Distribution of haplogroup R1a in Germany & Austria (black dots = sampling locations):



    2) R1a in Germany & Austria compared to areas of Early Medieval Slavic settlement:



    Two interesting observations regarding my map:

    1) Percent of R1a correlates with % of Slavic toponyms on a local scale (for example in the region of Greifswald there is a scarcity of Slavic toponyms - only 11,88% Slavic vs. 88,12% Germanic toponyms - and 19,2% of R1a; by contrast in the region of Rostock there is a large percent of Slavic toponyms - including Rostock itself - and % of R1a is nearly 2 times higher than in Greifswald - 32,4%).

    2) Samples with the highest % of R1a are the ones from the South-Eastern (not North-Eastern) part of East Germany:

    - Chemnitz in Saxony (ca. 40% of R1a),
    - Dessau in Saxony-Anhalt (ca. 43% of R1a)
    - Brandenburg an der Havel (ca. 50% of R1a),
    - Lusatia (ethnic Sorbs: ca. 65% of R1a)

    - in Austria: Graz in Styria (ca. 43% of R1a)

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