Who were Vandals?

[Taranis]

Vandals are Slavic ethnic group
Ethymology of word "Vandal" is Wend (=Vened, Venet).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends
Vandals, translation of Russian wikipedia

Vandals hated political catholic christian religion, therefore they demolished churches

Sorry, but what little evidence we have of their language shows that the Vandals were Germanic. Their personal names are overtly Germanic: Geiseric ('spear chieftain' - see English 'gar', and surnames such as "Friedrich" or "Dietrich") and Hilderic ('battle chieftain' - see Brunnhilde from the Nibelungenlied). If the personal names were Germanic, and Procopius for instance claims that they spoke "Gothic" (i.e. a language identical to that of the Goths), what should they have been else but Germanic?

Further on, despite what the Russian-language Wikipedia article claims, although the Vandals were Christians themselves, but they followed another strain of Christianity called Arianism (after its founder, Arius). They were not Orthodox because the difference between Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church did not exist yet at that point.

PS: are you by any chance an adherent of this idea?

 

[Milan]

Sorry, but what little evidence we have of their language shows that the Vandals were Germanic. Their personal names are overtly Germanic: Geiseric ('spear chieftain' - see English 'gar', and surnames such as "Friedrich" or "Dietrich") and Hilderic ('battle cheaftain' - see Brunnhilde from the Nibelungenlied). If the personal names were Germanic, and Procopius for instance claims that they spoke "Gothic" (i.e. a language identical to that of the Goths), what should they have been else but Germanic?

Further on, despite what the Russian-language Wikipedia article claims, although the Vandals were Christians themselves, but they followed another strain of Christianity called Arianism (after its founder, Arius). They were not Orthodox because the difference between Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church did not exist yet at that point.

PS: are you by any chance an adherent of this idea?

I am an adherent to the "idea" that the "Goths" were the Getae people known since antiquity by that name,Jordanes himself give them Thracian history,Thracian gods etc,further more they were known that are Getae(Thracians) by every author until the 17th century,the book was known as Getica,no Gothica,De origine actibusque Getarum,become known as separate Germanic Goths in the 17th century see Gothicism.There is couple of books mostly by Bulgarian/Romanian researchers on the subject,about the confusion.
This belong to separate thread,anyone is willing to open i can cooperate.

 

[DuPidh]

Vandals were eastern Germanic, about haplogroups surely some I, some R1 and I guess some T and Q were carried by them.

Culturally the Vandals were Germanic's, but ethnically they overlapped with Slavs, Romanians, Balts. So ethnically they might have been mixed with Germanic slight majority. Their brutality and destruction is not any different from modern Germanic tribes. Remember the scale of destruction in the European soil from WW1 and WW2 from Germans.

 

[Hauteville]

Culturally the Vandals were Germanic's, but ethnically they overlapped with Slavs, Romanians, Balts. So ethnically they might have been mixed with Germanic slight majority. Their brutality and destruction is not any different from modern Germanic tribes. Remember the scale of destruction in the European soil from WW1 and WW2 from Germans.

Which sources you have?The Vandals were the only Germanic people who counquered Sardinia and in the island there is zero Slav and Baltic dna but a small percentage of Germanic haplogroups yes.

 

[Sloven-Vened]

PS: are you by any chance an adherent of this idea?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_theory
This article is only about Slovenes.

Russian archeologist akademik Sedov is most important archeologist in Russia. Vandals have German-Slavic origin

 

[LeBrok]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_theory
This article is only about Slovenes.

Russian archeologist akademik Sedov is most important archeologist in Russland. Vandals have German-Slavic origin

Possibly. We can only speculate on it till we have their DNA, and DNA of involved ethnic groups of this era. The only sure things now is that they spoke Germanic language and that they were Christians. Pretty unusual for a Slavic group till 9th century, wouldn't you say?

 

[Tomenable]

The Vandals were the only Germanic people who counquered Sardinia and in the island there is zero Slav and Baltic dna

The bolded part is not true.

In fact, typically Slavic haplogroups are more numerous in Sardinia than typically Germanic ones.

Among 1204 Sardinians, there were over a dozen samples of typically Slavic and Baltic Y-DNA:

2 x I2a1b-M423
5 x R1a-M458>PF7521
1 x R1a-M458>L1029
3 x R1a-Z280>Y1396
1 x R1a-Z280>YP372
1 x R1a-Z280>CTS4648

As for Y-DNA most commonly associated with Germanic people, there were only four samples:

2 x R1b-U106
2 x I1-M253

There are also 5 samples of haplogroups associated with Central Asian populations in Sardinia:

4 x R1a-Z93
1 x Q1a3c-L527

And I2a2a-M223 which has no strong ethnic association but isn't common in Southern Europe:

10 x I2a2a-M223

=========================================

Other Y-DNA included 128 samples of R1b-U152 associated with Italic & Celtic ancestry - consistent with the long period of Roman rule in Sardinia - as well as 25 samples of P312*, 2 of DF13>L513, 4 of Celtiberian & Celtic DF27 and 2 of Insular Celtic L21:

128 x R1b-U152
25 x R1b-P312*
4 x R1b-DF27
2 x R1b-L21
2 x R1b-DF13>L513

There were also 22 samples of basal clades of R1b (including 19 of Eastern R1b - so called ht35 - and 3 of basal L151):

R1b-L151* - 3
R1b-L23* - 9
R1b-M269* - 10

Finally, the remaining 989 Sardinians among those 1204 had typically European Neolithic and Non-European Y-DNA:

465 x I2a1a
11 x I2c
131 x G2a
126 x E1b1b1
6 x E1a1
98 x J2
63 x J1c
29 x R1b-V88
10 x R2a1
28 x T
8 x L
7 x F3
7 x A1b1b2b

 

[Tomenable]

Their personal names are overtly Germanic: Geiseric ('spear chieftain' - see English 'gar', and surnames such as "Friedrich" or "Dietrich") and Hilderic ('battle cheaftain' - see Brunnhilde from the Nibelungenlied).

You mentioned some the most Germanic-sounding names that appears among them - Geiseric, Hilderic.

But there are also Non-Germanic-sounding Vandal names, from African and Iberian inscriptions, such as:

Crecemirus, Damiro, Godemiro, Gramila, Gualamira, Gualamirus, Gudileuva, Lubinus, Miro, Odisclus, Onemirus, Radagajs, Rademirus, Ragimiru, Ranisclus, Ricimer, Salamirus, Sueredus, Suimirus, Sinthiliuba, Sundemirus, Suniemirus, Swintila, Victemirus, Vistisclo, Vistremiro, Vitisclus, Svevlad, Visislaus, Vitislaus, Wisimar, Miesiclaus, Radagaisus, Valamir

These are some of the least Germanic-sounding names that appear in various inscriptions and chronicles.

 

[Tomenable]

Actually, yes:

The typically Germanic admixture is R1a, I1, I2b, R1b-U106.

R1a is by no means "typically Germanic".

There is a huge scarcity of R1a among "purely" Germanic nations, except for Scandinavia (but there it is R1a-Z284 and R1a-L664 rather than R1a-Z280 or R1a-M458 - which are totally different clades, that have not been found in Corded Ware culture and according to TMRCA age estimates, expanded much later).

R1a of Germans is mostly from assimilated Slavs, and it correlates very strongly with historical distribution of Slavs (see my map):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ny-and-Austria?p=488616&viewfull=1#post488616

In the past R1a used to be associated with Indo-Europeization of entire Europe. But currently we know that Western Europe was Indo-Europeanized by R1b who migrated from the Steppe. R1a - subclades of which tend to be much younger (according to TMRCA age estimates) - is mostly due to much later Slavic migrations.

% of R1a in West Germanic nations which - unlike Germany and Austria - don't have much of Slavic admixture:

England - 4,5% (according to Eupedia)
Flanders - 4,3% (sample size: 695 men)
Brabant - 4,0% (sample size: 74 men)

=========================

In a large sample of 1830 English men who lived ca. year 1700 (on average), there were 72 (ca. 4%) with R1a.

Out of these 72, just 37 could be assigned to particular subclades, while 35 did not test for enough SNPs so far:

R1a-Z284 (Scandinavian branch) = 17 people:

R-CTS4179 - 5 - Francis Harker b. 1773; E. Leeminge b. 1611; T. Marsden b. 1667; Benjamin Wilson b. 1637; William Russell b. 1605
R-L448 - 3 - Benjamin Ferguson b. 1766; Richard Kidd b. 1679; William b. 1671
R-YP386 - 2 - James Cottle b. 1817; William Mugford b. 1789
R-YP355 - 2 - William Boulton b. 1885; Christopher Tolchard b. 1524
R-CTS2243 - 1 - Edward Newman b. 1803
R-CTS8277 - 2 - Robert Bridberry b. 1630; William Heath b. 1587
R-S4458 - 1 - Robert Fooke b. 1697
R-Z287 - 1 - James Holliman b. 1785

R1a-L664 (Western European branch) = 8 people:

R-L664 - 7 - Harry Francis Fox b. 1849; Thomas Judd b. 1608; William Lane; Lt. William Palmer b. 1610; William Tapley Waymouth b. 1811; John Pike 1573; Christopher Robinsonne b. 1636
R-CTS5768 - 1 - Edmund Drake b. 1480 (ancestor of famous Francis Drake)

R1a-Z280 (Balto-Slavic branch) = 5 people:

R-Z280 - 2 - John Fenimore b. 1480; Thomas Winsor b. 1788
R-CTS3402 - 1 - Trott
R-FGC2555 - 1 - John Hollister d. 1596
R-S24902 - 1 - Thomas Yeo b. 1700

R1a-M458 (Slavic branch) = 2 people:

R-L1029 - 1 - Batt b. 1505;
R-YP445 - 1 - John Shanner b. 1776

R1a-CTS6 (Jewish subclade of R1a-Z93) = 1 person:

R-CTS8448 - 1 - Moses Phillips b. 1787

R1a-Z93 (Indo-Iranian branch) = 4 people:

R-Z93 - 1 - John Mason b. 1650
R-Z94 - 3 - John Gibson b. 1721; William Grant b. 1643; John Lett b. 1750

Undetermined R1a-Z283 (European branches) = 3 people:

R-Z283 - 2 - William Bambrook b. 1756; Thomas Coverdale b. 1726
R-Z282 - 1 - Edward Starbuck b. 1584

Undetermined branches of R1a = 32 people:

R-SRY10831 - 5
R-M17 - 3
R-M198 - 21
R-M417 - 2
R1a - 1

Reginald (Reynold) Ap Adams, b. 1242
John Ingram, b. 1350
Alex Alvord, b. 1627
John Bickford, b. 1603
Richard Boak, b. 1780
Thomas John Bruff, b. 1648
William Carpenter, b. 1605
John Croome, b. 1784
Thomas Dowland, b. 1781
Samuel Elliott
Thomas Gadsby, b. 1802
William Goulden/Golding, b. 1680
Philip Harris b. 1722
Edward Jenkins b. 1617
Jeremiah Lee b. 1790
Ralph Leeming b. 1738
Thomas Manson, b. 1700
George Maris, b. 1632
Richard Myllward, b. 1545
John Parsons, b. 1766
Edward Rowell, b. 1705
Henry Rust, b. 1631
John Scarcliffe, d. 1661
William Sillett, b. 1789
Giles Slocum, b. 1623
William Southmead of Wray
Robert Walkland, b. 1676
Henry Wall, b. 1650
John Williams, b. 1563
NN from Birmingham
NN from Waddington
NN from Lancashire

 

[Tomenable]

1) Distribution of haplogroup R1a in Germany & Austria (black dots = sampling locations):

2) R1a in Germany & Austria compared to areas of Early Medieval Slavic settlement:

Two interesting observations regarding my map:

1) Percent of R1a correlates with % of Slavic toponyms on a local scale (for example in the region of Greifswald there is a scarcity of Slavic toponyms - only 11,88% Slavic vs. 88,12% Germanic toponyms - and 19,2% of R1a; by contrast in the region of Rostock there is a large percent of Slavic toponyms - including Rostock itself - and % of R1a is nearly 2 times higher than in Greifswald - 32,4%).

2) Samples with the highest % of R1a are the ones from the South-Eastern (not North-Eastern) part of East Germany:

- Chemnitz in Saxony (ca. 40% of R1a),
- Dessau in Saxony-Anhalt (ca. 43% of R1a)
- Brandenburg an der Havel (ca. 50% of R1a),
- Lusatia (ethnic Sorbs: ca. 65% of R1a)

- in Austria: Graz in Styria (ca. 43% of R1a)

 

[Tomenable]

By the way - before the end of 2016, some new samples of ancient Y-DNA from Poland will be published.

So we will learn several things, I guess.

But I don't think that there will be many samples from Przeworsk culture, since they practiced cremation.

However, there will be numerous samples from Wielbark culture (which is often associated with Goths).

And I already know one Wielbark Y-DNA.

 

[Sile]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_theory
This article is only about Slovenes.

Russian archeologist akademik Sedov is most important archeologist in Russia. Vandals have German-Slavic origin

The Venetic theory for being slovenian is now dead

The theory has also gained support in some nationalist circles. However, the theory has been challenged by certain writers,^[4]:145 and it has been rejected by both mainstream linguists^[1][2] and historians.<sup>[5]

The Slovenians latest theory states they have illyrian markers as part of their ethnicity


The Venedi of the baltic are of West-baltic origin


The Veneti of the Adriatic are of Euganei people who are indigenous to North-East italy</sup>

 

[Taranis]

R1a is by no means "typically Germanic".

There is a huge scarcity of R1a among "purely" Germanic nations, except for Scandinavia (but there it is R1a-Z284 and R1a-L664 rather than R1a-Z280 or R1a-M458 - which are totally different clades, that have not been found in Corded Ware culture and according to TMRCA age estimates, expanded much later).

First, I would like to say that I wrote that post back in 2011. That makes a big difference to me. Second, I would like to say that the assumption that R1a is somehow associated with Germanic peoples was reasonable then, and it is reasonable now. As you are aware, R1a was present in Central Europe with the Corded Ware (Eulau, see Haak et al.) and Urnfield Cultures (Lichtenstein cave, see Schweitzer et al.). Although I'm amiss where in the R1a tree they fall, it is evidence that R1a was present in what is today Germany substantially earlier.

You mentioned some the most Germanic-sounding names that appears among them - Geiseric, Hilderic..

I picked those two precisely because the Germanic etymology is readily comprehensible. But, in any casee can agree that they are Germanic names, and as I said, Procopius claimed that they spoke 'Gothic'. We have attested two forms of Gothic: The 'biblical' Gothic, from that 300s translation of the New Testament into Gothic. and the much younger Crimean Gothic, Busbecq's account. Both are unanimously Germanic languages. I do not see any potential for controversy here.

But there are also Non-Germanic-sounding Vandal names, from African and Iberian inscriptions, such as:

Crecemirus, Damiro, Godemiro, Gramila, Gualamira, Gualamirus, Gudileuva, Lubinus, Miro, Odisclus, Onemirus, Radagajs, Rademirus, Ragimiru, Ranisclus, Ricimer, Salamirus, Sueredus, Suimirus, Sinthiliuba, Sundemirus, Suniemirus, Swintila, Victemirus, Vistisclo, Vistremiro, Vitisclus, Svevlad, Visislaus, Vitislaus, Wisimar, Miesiclaus, Radagaisus, Valamir

These are some of the least Germanic-sounding names that appear in various inscriptions and chronicles.

This probably belongs into a separate thread, but I'd like to pinpoint you to something: some of these are decidedly through Latin/Romance transmission (especially the cases where *w > *gw, compare how "William" and "Guillaume" fit together). Hence "Gualamirus" and "Valamir" are just renderings of the same name. Radagaisus is a variant of the English name "Roger" (or "Rüdiger" in German, 'famous spear'). Bear in mind that unlike West Germanic and North Germanic, the East Germanic languages did not obey to the *z > *r rhotacism.

 

[Tomenable]

Taranis,

As you are aware, R1a was present in Central Europe with the Corded Ware

Firstly, Corded Ware was not yet Germanic. The earliest Proto-Germanic culture was either the Nordic Bronze Age or Jastorf. It is possible that the Nordic Bronze Age developed from one of Corded Ware (or more precisely - Battle Axe) groups. We have a hint which one was that - there is one sample of R1b-U106 from a Battle Axe burial in Southern Sweden (RISE98 sample).

RISE98 is the oldest R1b-U106 discovered so far. Then we have two U106-s from Roman-era Eburacum.

And you might expect some new samples of R1b-U106 before the end of this year.

Secondly, Western Corded Ware R1a was most probably neither M458+ nor Z280+. None of these two SNPs has been confirmed so far in CWC samples (and keep in mind that Z280 and M458 make up the vast majority of European R1a today). It seems that most of Western Corded Ware R1a were nowadays extinct or rare lineages such as M417* - M417(xZ645), some M417+, some Z645+. There was also one sample of M198*. Finally, the presence of CTS4385+ (Eulau), L664+ (RISE446 from Bergheinfeld) and Z284+ (RISE61 from Zealand) has been confirmed. But these lineages are only a rather small minority of German and Austrian R1a today.

CTS4385 and L664 used to be called "Old European" branches in the past. But now they can be securely associated with Corded Ware westward expansion towards the Rhine. These branches are scattered all over Western Europe and Central Europe today, but their frequencies tend to be low everywhere. There are no populations with high frequency of these lineages.

and Urnfield Cultures (Lichtenstein cave

These were only tested to R1a1+ level, probably due to low quality of samples. There is no evidence that they were Z280+ or M458+.

Although I'm amiss where in the R1a tree they fall

See above. Most of them were either basal, extinct, or rare (today) subclades. Neither has been confirmed as Z280+ or M458+. So it seems that demographic explosion of Z280+ and M458+ lineages of R1a took place later than the Early Bronze Age.

Modern R1a in Germany and Austria (as well as in Eastern Europe) is overwhelmingly of either M458+ or Z280+ variety.

The oldest sample of confirmed M458 that we have so far, is from a Medieval Slavic burial from the island of Usedom. There are also some M458-s from Early Medieval Poland, but they haven't yet been published (they will be published soon). However, this doesn't tell us much about the origins of M458. Identifying M458 in Iron Age or Bronze Age samples - that would be great.

 

[Tomenable]

I've found a book by Herbert Schutz who apparently thinks that Wielbark culture was a Germanic-Slavic mix:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=r-DLX9PPEFoC&pg=PA90#v=onepage&q&f=false

Check "Map 12. The Slavs" - he associates Wielbark and Cernjachov cultures with Slavs, but on what basis?

===================
Coming back to Corded Ware:

it is evidence that R1a was present in what is today Germany substantially earlier.

Yes but as I wrote, those were not "modern" (common today) subclades. It seems that Bell Beaker populations expanded into Corded Ware territories from the west, and either replaced or otherwise outnumbered those previous Corded Ware male populations. One exception were parts of Scandinavia (especially Norway) where Corded Ware population remained dominant.

BTW, CWC people probably never had high population density, as they were largely nomadic.

Perhaps Beaker Folks could achieve higher densities because they switched to farming earlier.

 

[Sloven-Vened]

Remember the scale of destruction in the European soil from WW1 and WW2 from Germans.

Yes, it is true. Franks (they were Germans) were extremely violent when bloody militarily christianize Slavs. Franks done genocide on Slavs

The only sure things now is that they spoke Germanic language and that they were Christians. Pretty unusual for a Slavic group till 9th century, wouldn't you say?

It is true. Slavs had very advanced, progressive ezoteric spiritualty (no animal sacrifice, no idols). They hated priminive pagan bloodly dogmatic cult of christianity. Saint Stephen done genocide on Slavs at chriastianisation prosess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_I_of_Hungary

The crusade against the Slavs, click to link

 

[Sloven-Vened]

Reacion to Tomenable posts:
Austria
Greater half of people in Austria has typical Slavic (no German) last names!!! It is very interesting!!! It is realy true!!!!
Official is Austria german country with german language, without Slavic ethnic imigrant minority

 

[Sloven-Vened]

The Venetic theory for being slovenian is now dead
The theory has also gained support in some nationalist circles. However, the theory has been challenged by certain writers,^[4]:145 and it has been rejected by both mainstream linguists^[1][2] and historians.^{[5]
The Slovenians latest theory states they have illyrian markers as part of their ethnicity}

Sorry, you dont understand me. Sloven is not the same as Slovenian! It is difficult linguistic theory. Sloven = Slav (in simple). You do not understand Slovakian language, it is difficult for you.

Click you to this link, please. History of Slavs before 6. century support hungarian and german archeologists
The biggest myths about Slavs

 

[Sile]

Sorry, you dont understand me. Sloven is not the same as Slovenian! It is difficult linguistic theory. Sloven = Slav (in simple). You do not understand Slovakian language, it is difficult for you.

Click you to this link, please. History of Slavs before 6. century support hungarian and german archeologists
The biggest myths about Slavs

I understand you................very well

you talk about Veneds being slavs, when they are and have never been slavs............they are balts in origin .......they are part of the flad-bed culture, the cairns culture and others. None of these are slavic in origin

 

[Artmar]

Taranis,



Firstly, Corded Ware was not yet Germanic. The earliest Proto-Germanic culture was either the Nordic Bronze Age or Jastorf. It is possible that the Nordic Bronze Age developed from one of Corded Ware (or more precisely - Battle Axe) groups. We have a hint which one was that - there is one sample of R1b-U106 from a Battle Axe burial in Southern Sweden (RISE98 sample).

Actually, you should remember the discussion on Anthrogenica where it was proven than U106 wasn't buried in Battle-Axe rite - only on burial site used previously by Battle-Axe people. That's a SIGNIFICANT difference. Guy wasn't Battle-Axe but he possibly belonged to people who pushed CWC groups further north.